On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 8:34:56 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:

> The HF website specs claim 1.5KVA, 1/8" steel for the 120V model and 2.5KVA,
> 3/16" for the 240V, though both weigh the same.

Hmm, maybe they corrected it or maybe I was misremembering.

At any rate, Dan Gelbart recommends 15 KVA "minimum":

https://youtu.be/82Iil0fFN9Y?t=382

and says 15 KVA is good for welding 3mm to 3mm (or in gauges, 12 gauge
or 10 gauge.) 3mm translates to about 1/8". Those HF specs are for
"combined thickness", but still likely optimistic. (Or they just have you apply
the power for longer than Gelbart finds appropriate, probably yielding an
uglier weld and/or too much heat conducted into the electrodes.)

Gelbart's videos are pretty amazing, by the way; I'd thought I knew how
people made things, but he has a whole 'nother set of tricks.

> I have a 20A, 120V Variac and large zero-crossing solid state relays to
> control power and duration, and for brief pulses the line current may fall
> within the overload curve (Figure A) for my 9A, 240V Powerstat.
> https://datasheet.octopart.com/10C-Superior-Electric-datasheet-5868.pdf

That's fine but there's not much point in making your own when the exact
thing you need is available for near-nothing:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353554722382

> The Ox-Gard I use on my TV antenna keeps its aluminum electrical contacts
> good for several years outdoors. I notice the signal loss when the contact
> resistance rises to several tenths of an Ohm and bring it down (from 50')
> for cleaning, back to a few milliOhms. The original rivet joints are now all
> aluminum bolts so it comes completely apart.

That's a low-current application in which weather is a prime factor and so
it helps a lot to exclude water from the joint. This is indoors but high
current. It's like aluminum wires causing house fires, except in this case
the connection is even wimpier than it is in an in an ordinary electrical
outlet with a screwed-down aluminum wire. High current gives heating
at poor contact points which leads to more oxidation which leads to more
heating.

On 12/17/2022 8:11 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Richard Smith"  wrote in message news:ly4jtul3c9.fsf@void.com...
>
> I love to see them, but as ever it could be shown that life is hard,
> seeing their travails really brings it home.
>
> -------------------------
>
> Subsistence was hard for humans until quite recently, my father was a
> barefoot Appalachian farm boy whose parents didn't have electricity or
> running water until he installed them in the 1970's. I've carried a
> kettle of hot water out to thaw and prime the water pump on a freezing
> morning. My mother told me how she hated having to pick the worst
> looking potatoes out of the barrel to eat, so the supply would last
> until the next crop. Now people have forgotten what the advances gave us
> and oppose them, for instance vaccines, electricity, fertilizer.
>

My wife remembers living without indoor plumbing and electricity .
She lived in southwestern Kentucky as a small child . I agree with your
last sentence except for vaccines . Only because all vaccines are not
created equal , and some of these they're pushing now IMO cause more
harm than good .
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

On 12/17/2022 3:41 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>
>>
>> During dove season we could just look for feathers on the ground. LOL.
>
> Oh no!!! How things are.
>
> I've put out a feeder with just "vegetarian" bird seed to try to help
> the doves nesting on the side of my house, behind an old satellite
> dish.
> I love to see them, but as ever it could be shown that life is hard,
> seeing their travails really brings it home.

While we have our fair share of feral cats we also still have plenty of
wild predators to manage the cats and many climates that are hostile to
such a narrowly evolved predators as the domestic house cat. Our feral
cat population is not likely to wipe out any of our bird populations as
has happened in the UK. If you like the birds in the UK, buy a pellet
gun and hunt cats. Not kidding. (Close range head shots only at your
power levels.)

As an aside I have wondered why your song bird population does not
replenish regularly from nearby lands. There are plenty within the
flying range of a determined sparrow, and the migratory birds could make
the passages like a Sunday stroll. Are your feral cats really that
dominating that they keep the song bird levels so low?

Morning and Whitewing dove populations in North America are strong (with
a narrow hunting season). Now we have an invasive Eurasion dove
(collared dove) that really needs to be wiped out on the continent.
There is a 365 days season and no limit on those in my home state. At
first it looked like they were going to overwhelm the morning and white
wing populations. They are a larger dove, but the numbers seem to have
stabilized. Still North American Wildlife managers are mixed with
attitudes from eradication to heavy management. I have no idea if the
Eurasion dove has impacted the smaller protected dove species like Inca
dove and ground dove.

I used to hunt the Eurasion dove with a pellet gun much more powerful
than any you are allowed to own in the UK without a gun permit, but I
just don't have the time these days. The breasts are quite tasty when
roasted in a jalapeno shell with a thin layer of cream cheese all
wrapped in a strip of bacon. Sure a shot gun works, but pellets are so
much cheaper than shotgun shells.

I know. I've exposed myself as one of those evil hunters. Now you
won't like me any more. LOL. Like most people who hunt I try to stay
in tune with the current management reasons for why things are regulated
the way they are. I've never been a kill crazed blood luster, and
neither is any other hunter I know. I actually started hunting
seriously to supplement my grocery budget when I was saving for college.
Everyday after work I would walk down the hill into the desert in
search of cotton tails.

If it helps I do have a cat feeder... er I mean bird feeder... out
front of the house.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 12/17/2022 11:03 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 12/17/2022 3:41 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> During dove season we could just look for feathers on the ground.  LOL.
>>
>> Oh no!!!  How things are.
>>
>> I've put out a feeder with just "vegetarian" bird seed to try to help
>> the doves nesting on the side of my house, behind an old satellite
>> dish.
>> I love to see them, but as ever it could be shown that life is hard,
>> seeing their travails really brings it home.
>
> While we have our fair share of feral cats we also still have plenty of
> wild predators to manage the cats and many climates that are hostile to
> such a narrowly evolved predators as the domestic house cat.  Our feral
> cat population is not likely to wipe out any of our bird populations as
> has happened in the UK.  If you like the birds in the UK, buy a pellet
> gun and hunt cats.  Not kidding.  (Close range head shots only at your
> power levels.)
>
> As an aside I have wondered why your song bird population does not
> replenish regularly from nearby lands.  There are plenty within the
> flying range of a determined sparrow, and the migratory birds could make
> the passages like a Sunday stroll.  Are your feral cats really that
> dominating that they keep the song bird levels so low?
>
> Morning and Whitewing dove populations in North America are strong (with
> a narrow hunting season).  Now we have an invasive Eurasion dove
> (collared dove) that really needs to be wiped out on the continent.
> There is a 365 days season and no limit on those in my home state.  At
> first it looked like they were going to overwhelm the morning and white
> wing populations.  They are a larger dove, but the numbers seem to have
> stabilized.  Still North American Wildlife managers are mixed with
> attitudes from eradication to heavy management.  I have no idea if the
> Eurasion dove has impacted the smaller protected dove species like Inca
> dove and ground dove.
>
> I used to hunt the Eurasion dove with a pellet gun much more powerful
> than any you are allowed to own in the UK without a gun permit, but I
> just don't have the time these days.   The breasts are quite tasty when
> roasted in a jalapeno shell with a thin layer of cream cheese all
> wrapped in a strip of bacon.  Sure a shot gun works, but pellets are so
> much cheaper than shotgun shells.
>
> I know.  I've exposed myself as one of those evil hunters.  Now you
> won't like me any more.  LOL.  Like most people who hunt I try to stay
> in tune with the current management reasons for why things are regulated
> the way they are.  I've never been a kill crazed blood luster, and
> neither is any other hunter I know.  I actually started hunting
> seriously to supplement my grocery budget when I was saving for college.
>  Everyday after work I would walk down the hill into the desert in
> search of cotton tails.
>
> If it helps I do have a cat feeder... er I mean bird feeder...  out
> front of the house.

We have three seed and one suet feeder for the wild birds . And 5
feral cats - well , 3 of them are nearly-grown kittens . They focus more
on the moles and other ground-dwellers , much easier hunting .
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 16:30:10 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
wrote:

>On 12/16/2022 3:48 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 15:19:06 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/16/2022 10:12 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 09:11:51 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/15/2022 8:33 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>>>> "Snag"  wrote in message news:tngjgu$3715a$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Well , new to me . Found a Lincoln Weldpak 175 in like-new condition
>>>>>> , he was asking $375 I offered $275 and he accepted . It really is like
>>>>>> new , contactor tip is clean and so is the nozzle . It also came with a
>>>>>> 2lb roll of flux core and a regulator . And to add some icing to the
>>>>>> cake , I sold my Weldpak 100 to a neighbor for $130 so my net cost was
>>>>>> only 145 bucks . The only downside is that this one is 220V , so it's
>>>>>> not as portable as the 110V Weldpak 100 . I'll be changing some power
>>>>>> plugs out so all the 220 stuff will use the same one . The 8ga power
>>>>>> cord (from the panel to a female plug) for the plasma cutter will become
>>>>>> an extension cord that will work with the new MIG , the TIG and the
>>>>>> plasma cutter .
>>>>>> Snag
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good catch!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Speaking of new welders, a couple of impending projects are pushing me
>>>>>> toward buying a spot welder. I've used an industrial one and have some
>>>>>> experience with adjusting the settings. What's the opinion of the 240V
>>>>>> Harbor Freight one? It lacks a timer but they aren't that hard to make.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not know, but I sure would like to. There are some products I
>>>>> could sell if I felt I could recommend a low cost machine to my
>>>>> customers to assemble. There are tax reasons I would just want to sell
>>>>> ready to weld parts and an assembly jig.
>>>>
>>>> Is this the welder in question:
>>>>
>>>> .<https://www.harborfreight.com/120v-spot-welder-61205.html>
>>>>
>>>> I have one of these, and it does work pretty well.
>>>>
>>>> Made in Armenia, not China, at least when I bought it.
>>>>
>>>> It has zero electronics - it is just a very large and heavy
>>>> transformer, so I often run it off a variac (not a thyristor light
>>>> dimmer) to control the welding power. This allows me to spot weld
>>>> 0.002" stainless (321) steel foil strips together without burning a
>>>> hole.
>>>>
>>>> Joe Gwinn
>>>
>>> Do you use the 120V one you linked to or the 240V version?
>>
>> 120 Vac.
>>
>>
>>> I happened to have a variac on the shelf I had planned to use for a
>>> plastic bending setup, but then I just used polycarbonate which I can at
>>> bend room temperature in the sheet metal brake.
>>
>> Variacs are pretty handy.
>>
>> Thin foil welds pretty fast, so one just operates the switch fast,
>> without looking to see if the weld is done yet. An old photo printing
>> timer (for an enlarger) would also work.
>>
>> Joe Gwinn
>
>
>I wonder how my dad would feel about me getting into his old dark room
>stuff to "borrow" his enlarger and scavenge for parts. LOL.

Ahh, well, they are still available. Google for "photo enlarger
exposure timer" (without the quotes).

Be sure the timer can handle the power draw of the spot welder. The
good news being that the spot welder is resistive, and does not have
an incandescent-lamp initial surge.

Joe Gwinn

Bob - I have been to Texas and am able to join in in their favourite
relaxational activity. The only think I took note of was the cooking and serving suggestion with jalapeno shells and a strip of bacon.

On 12/17/2022 10:34 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob - I have been to Texas and am able to join in in their favourite
> relaxational activity. The only think I took note of was the cooking and serving suggestion with jalapeno shells and a strip of bacon.

If you have the opportunity just look for recipes for Jalapeno Dove
Poppers. There are a number of variations of the recipe. My wife finds
Jalapenos a little over powering of the other flavors, so we use a
milder pepper. Of course adjust for allergies. Goat cheese if cows
milk products are an issue. Beef bacon or duck bacon if pork is an
issue. Its all good.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Snag" wrote in message news:tnkshc$3mp0k$1@dont-email.me...

On 12/17/2022 8:11 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly4jtul3c9.fsf@void.com...
>
> I love to see them, but as ever it could be shown that life is hard,
> seeing their travails really brings it home.
>
> -------------------------
>
> Subsistence was hard for humans until quite recently, my father was a
> barefoot Appalachian farm boy whose parents didn't have electricity or
> running water until he installed them in the 1970's. I've carried a
> kettle of hot water out to thaw and prime the water pump on a freezing
> morning. My mother told me how she hated having to pick the worst
> looking potatoes out of the barrel to eat, so the supply would last
> until the next crop. Now people have forgotten what the advances gave us
> and oppose them, for instance vaccines, electricity, fertilizer.
>

My wife remembers living without indoor plumbing and electricity .
She lived in southwestern Kentucky as a small child . I agree with your
last sentence except for vaccines . Only because all vaccines are not
created equal , and some of these they're pushing now IMO cause more
harm than good .
Snag
----------------------

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/us/robert-kennedy-covid-vaccine.html

On 12/17/2022 1:11 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Snag"  wrote in message news:tnkshc$3mp0k$1@dont-email.me...
> On 12/17/2022 8:11 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Richard Smith"  wrote in message news:ly4jtul3c9.fsf@void.com...
>>
>> I love to see them, but as ever it could be shown that life is hard,
>> seeing their travails really brings it home.
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>> Subsistence was hard for humans until quite recently, my father was a
>> barefoot Appalachian farm boy whose parents didn't have electricity or
>> running water until he installed them in the 1970's. I've carried a
>> kettle of hot water out to thaw and prime the water pump on a freezing
>> morning. My mother told me how she hated having to pick the worst
>> looking potatoes out of the barrel to eat, so the supply would last
>> until the next crop. Now people have forgotten what the advances gave
>> us and oppose them, for instance vaccines, electricity, fertilizer.
>>
>
>   My wife remembers living without indoor plumbing and electricity .
> She lived in southwestern Kentucky as a small child . I agree with your
> last sentence except for vaccines . Only because all vaccines are not
> created equal , and some of these they're pushing now IMO cause more
> harm than good .
> Snag
> ----------------------
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/us/robert-kennedy-covid-vaccine.html

hit a paywall and I ain't payin'
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

On 17/12/2022 19:45, Snag wrote:
> On 12/17/2022 1:11 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Snag"  wrote in message news:tnkshc$3mp0k$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 12/17/2022 8:11 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Richard Smith"  wrote in message news:ly4jtul3c9.fsf@void.com...
>>>
>>> I love to see them, but as ever it could be shown that life is hard,
>>> seeing their travails really brings it home.
>>>
>>> -------------------------
>>>
>>> Subsistence was hard for humans until quite recently, my father was
>>> a barefoot Appalachian farm boy whose parents didn't have
>>> electricity or running water until he installed them in the 1970's.
>>> I've carried a kettle of hot water out to thaw and prime the water
>>> pump on a freezing morning. My mother told me how she hated having
>>> to pick the worst looking potatoes out of the barrel to eat, so the
>>> supply would last until the next crop. Now people have forgotten
>>> what the advances gave us and oppose them, for instance vaccines,
>>> electricity, fertilizer.
>>>
>>
>>    My wife remembers living without indoor plumbing and electricity .
>> She lived in southwestern Kentucky as a small child . I agree with
>> your last sentence except for vaccines . Only because all vaccines
>> are not created equal , and some of these they're pushing now IMO
>> cause more harm than good .
>> Snag
>> ----------------------
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/us/robert-kennedy-covid-vaccine.html
>
> hit a paywall and I ain't payin'

If you delete NY Times cookies you'll likely find the paywall goes away,
I don't see it and can read the article fine.

Bob - you asked about cats re. bird population.
As far as I know the problem is domestic cats.
You have a cat - you will not have birds in your garden, where they
used to be your delightful companion before.
That is compounded here because of the density of population, so
density of presence of domestic cats.

I worked in Turkey, where they do not (?) have domestic pets but do
do have a lot of dogs and cats.
They consider that the cities would be / would have been awash with
rats and vermin without the dogs and cats.
To this day they provide food for the dogs and cats. There is a
health system for them. Dogs which have been "looked at" are ringed.
The cats are used to humans and will leave their kittens with human
hosts - eg. they will leave them in a box in an office workplace.
Someone showed me he could pick up a sleeping kitten's paw and it
wouldn't wake up.

On 12/17/2022 2:38 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob - you asked about cats re. bird population.
> As far as I know the problem is domestic cats.
> You have a cat - you will not have birds in your garden, where they
> used to be your delightful companion before.
> That is compounded here because of the density of population, so
> density of presence of domestic cats.
>
> I worked in Turkey, where they do not (?) have domestic pets but do
> do have a lot of dogs and cats.
> They consider that the cities would be / would have been awash with
> rats and vermin without the dogs and cats.
> To this day they provide food for the dogs and cats. There is a
> health system for them. Dogs which have been "looked at" are ringed.
> The cats are used to humans and will leave their kittens with human
> hosts - eg. they will leave them in a box in an office workplace.
> Someone showed me he could pick up a sleeping kitten's paw and it
> wouldn't wake up.
>

We've seen a marked decrease in rodents of all types since we were
adopted by some semi-feral cats . That's why we feed them to keep them
around .
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

On 17/12/2022 20:38, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob - you asked about cats re. bird population.
> As far as I know the problem is domestic cats.
> You have a cat - you will not have birds in your garden, where they
> used to be your delightful companion before.
> That is compounded here because of the density of population, so
> density of presence of domestic cats.
>
> I worked in Turkey, where they do not (?) have domestic pets but do
> do have a lot of dogs and cats.
> They consider that the cities would be / would have been awash with
> rats and vermin without the dogs and cats.
> To this day they provide food for the dogs and cats. There is a
> health system for them. Dogs which have been "looked at" are ringed.
> The cats are used to humans and will leave their kittens with human
> hosts - eg. they will leave them in a box in an office workplace.
> Someone showed me he could pick up a sleeping kitten's paw and it
> wouldn't wake up.

I don't have a cat here in the UK but plenty of my neighbours do and
there are quite a lot of birds in my garden and other ones in the area
even though the cats do come into my garden regularly. Maybe they prefer
the rats, mice, and voles as easier pray.

"Snag" wrote in message news:tnl683$3nhii$1@dont-email.me...

>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/us/robert-kennedy-covid-vaccine.html

hit a paywall and I ain't payin'

----------------------

RFK strongly opposes vaccines. I don't know enough about medicine to form a
valid scientific opinion, I defer to a relative who was a senior researcher
at CDC.

The politics of vaccine distrust are less one-sided than the media will
admit:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/what-do-lefty-anti-vaxxers-do-now/620092/

On 12/17/2022 4:59 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Snag"  wrote in message news:tnl683$3nhii$1@dont-email.me...
>
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/us/robert-kennedy-covid-vaccine.html
>
> hit a paywall and I ain't payin'
>
> ----------------------
>
> RFK strongly opposes vaccines. I don't know enough about medicine to
> form a valid scientific opinion, I defer to a relative who was a senior
> researcher at CDC.
>
> The politics of vaccine distrust are less one-sided than the media will
> admit:
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/what-do-lefty-anti-vaxxers-do-now/620092/
>
>

As far as the covid vaccine , I've seen too much evidence of people
dying from stuff that was almost nonexistent in the recent past . Other
vaccines , well I've seen evidence of problems such as autism that were
a lot less prevalent before many of them were in common usage . Not any
"scientific evidence" , just empirical evidence of a possible causal link .
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

"Snag" wrote in message news:tnljv1$3phdr$1@dont-email.me...

As far as the covid vaccine , I've seen too much evidence of people
dying from stuff that was almost nonexistent in the recent past . Other
vaccines , well I've seen evidence of problems such as autism that were
a lot less prevalent before many of them were in common usage . Not any
"scientific evidence" , just empirical evidence of a possible causal link .
Snag

----------------

In medicine it's extremely difficult and EXPEN$IVE to disprove an alleged
cause and effect, especially a rare one, so the limited funding mostly goes
to more productive efforts. That's why so many fad diets can persist. The
COVID vaccine certainly does have a bad effect on some people, my sister for
instance, but I believe without proof that her strong immune response was
the culprit and the disease would have been much worse.

Here is an example of the uncertainty:
https://www.ndph.ox.ac.uk/news/new-study-finds-lower-risks-of-cancer-for-vegetarians-pescatarians-and-low-meat-eaters
"However, there was no apparent difference in risk for women for any of
these dietary groups."

A possible cause the study didn't mention checking for is the high
temperature breakdown products of fats etc, as in rare, medium or well done.
The prof warned us about carcinogenic PAHs (tar, char) in Chemistry class in
the 1960's, and since then I've cook meat at lower temperature.

https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/diet/cooked-meats-fact-sheet
But:
"Population studies have not established a definitive link between HCA and
PAH exposure from cooked meats and cancer in humans. One difficulty with
conducting such studies is that it can be difficult to determine the exact
level of HCA and/or PAH exposure a person gets from cooked meats."

Beware of studies that find what they were paid to look for. Researchers who
don't may risk unemployment.

On 12/17/2022 4:39 PM, Snag wrote:
> On 12/17/2022 4:59 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Snag"  wrote in message news:tnl683$3nhii$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/us/robert-kennedy-covid-vaccine.html
>>
>> hit a paywall and I ain't payin'
>>
>> ----------------------
>>
>> RFK strongly opposes vaccines. I don't know enough about medicine to
>> form a valid scientific opinion, I defer to a relative who was a
>> senior researcher at CDC.
>>
>> The politics of vaccine distrust are less one-sided than the media
>> will admit:
>> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/what-do-lefty-anti-vaxxers-do-now/620092/
>>
>
>   As far as the covid vaccine , I've seen too much evidence of people
> dying from stuff that was almost nonexistent in the recent past . Other
> vaccines , well I've seen evidence of problems such as autism that were
> a lot less prevalent before many of them were in common usage . Not any
> "scientific evidence" , just empirical evidence of a possible causal link .

If you want to go down a rabbit hole do some research on pthalates. One
theory is that they fundamentally changed society today on a biological
level. I am not making an argument here. Just pointing out the rabbit
hole.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 12/17/2022 1:38 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob - you asked about cats re. bird population.
> As far as I know the problem is domestic cats.
> You have a cat - you will not have birds in your garden, where they
> used to be your delightful companion before.
> That is compounded here because of the density of population, so
> density of presence of domestic cats.
>
> I worked in Turkey, where they do not (?) have domestic pets but do
> do have a lot of dogs and cats.
> They consider that the cities would be / would have been awash with
> rats and vermin without the dogs and cats.
> To this day they provide food for the dogs and cats. There is a
> health system for them. Dogs which have been "looked at" are ringed.
> The cats are used to humans and will leave their kittens with human
> hosts - eg. they will leave them in a box in an office workplace.
> Someone showed me he could pick up a sleeping kitten's paw and it
> wouldn't wake up.

I could be mistaken of course, and since I don't live there its all
hearsay to me. I had been lead to believe that the UK had a feral or
semi feral domestic cat breed population that was the dominant predator
due to the eradication historically of most if not all larger predators.
That it was this not naturally checked population that had nearly
eradicated song birds in the UK.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tnna8l$164d$1@gioia.aioe.org...

I could be mistaken of course, and since I don't live there its all
hearsay to me. I had been lead to believe that the UK had a feral or
semi feral domestic cat breed population that was the dominant predator
due to the eradication historically of most if not all larger predators.
That it was this not naturally checked population that had nearly
eradicated song birds in the UK.

--------------------

I was curious.
http://www.catbehaviourist.com/blog/study-certified-cat-behaviourist-anita-kelsey/

On 12/18/2022 8:58 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:tnna8l$164d$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>
> I could be mistaken of course, and since I don't live there its all
> hearsay to me.  I had been lead to believe that the UK had a feral or
> semi feral domestic cat breed population that was the dominant predator
> due to the eradication historically of most if not all larger predators.
>  That it was this not naturally checked population that had nearly
> eradicated song birds in the UK.
>
> --------------------
>
> I was curious.
> http://www.catbehaviourist.com/blog/study-certified-cat-behaviourist-anita-kelsey/

I rather liked that first picture.

Having trapped fox (grey and kit) I suspect it may also be a matter of
breed and opportunity. A healthy adult male kit fox would be sadly
under powered against a healthy adult male tom cat, but a grey fox is
larger and smarter. The thing is grey foxes are more wary and less
populous, so unless you have a country kitty surrounded by fox treats
the chance of an encounter is slim. I really know little or nothing of
other fox breeds. That was a fun read Jim. Thanks.

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On 18/12/2022 15:05, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 12/17/2022 1:38 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Bob - you asked about cats re. bird population.
>> As far as I know the problem is domestic cats.
>> You have a cat - you will not have birds in your garden, where they
>> used to be your delightful companion before.
>> That is compounded here because of the density of population, so
>> density of presence of domestic cats.
>>
>> I worked in Turkey, where they do not (?) have domestic pets but do
>> do have a lot of dogs and cats.
>> They consider that the cities would be / would have been awash with
>> rats and vermin without the dogs and cats.
>> To this day they provide food for the dogs and cats.  There is a
>> health system for them.  Dogs which have been "looked at" are ringed.
>> The cats are used to humans and will leave their kittens with human
>> hosts - eg. they will leave them in a box in an office workplace.
>> Someone showed me he could pick up a sleeping kitten's paw and it
>> wouldn't wake up.
>
>
> I could be mistaken of course, and since I don't live there its all
> hearsay to me.  I had been lead to believe that the UK had a feral or
> semi feral domestic cat breed population that was the dominant
> predator due to the eradication historically of most if not all larger
> predators.  That it was this not naturally checked population that had
> nearly eradicated song birds in the UK.
>
I think this varies with location, I'm not aware of a feral cat
population here in the south west of the UK but a friend lives near
Huntingdon and there are quite a lot of feral cats around there which is
apparently largely attributed to US service personnel in the area 
abandoning their cats when they go home. Near me many years ago animal
protestors broke into a local mink farm and let them free and that did
decimate the local bird and small animal population for a while.

On 12/18/2022 10:13 AM, David Billington wrote:
> On 18/12/2022 15:05, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 12/17/2022 1:38 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> Bob - you asked about cats re. bird population.
>>> As far as I know the problem is domestic cats.
>>> You have a cat - you will not have birds in your garden, where they
>>> used to be your delightful companion before.
>>> That is compounded here because of the density of population, so
>>> density of presence of domestic cats.
>>>
>>> I worked in Turkey, where they do not (?) have domestic pets but do
>>> do have a lot of dogs and cats.
>>> They consider that the cities would be / would have been awash with
>>> rats and vermin without the dogs and cats.
>>> To this day they provide food for the dogs and cats.  There is a
>>> health system for them.  Dogs which have been "looked at" are ringed.
>>> The cats are used to humans and will leave their kittens with human
>>> hosts - eg. they will leave them in a box in an office workplace.
>>> Someone showed me he could pick up a sleeping kitten's paw and it
>>> wouldn't wake up.
>>
>>
>> I could be mistaken of course, and since I don't live there its all
>> hearsay to me.  I had been lead to believe that the UK had a feral or
>> semi feral domestic cat breed population that was the dominant
>> predator due to the eradication historically of most if not all larger
>> predators.  That it was this not naturally checked population that had
>> nearly eradicated song birds in the UK.
>>
> I think this varies with location, I'm not aware of a feral cat
> population here in the south west of the UK but a friend lives near
> Huntingdon and there are quite a lot of feral cats around there which is
> apparently largely attributed to US service personnel in the area
> abandoning their cats when they go home. Near me many years ago animal
> protestors broke into a local mink farm and let them free and that did
> decimate the local bird and small animal population for a while.
>

Mink (and other weasels) are certain very efficient killing machines.
We had pet ferrets for a while back in the 90s, and when a much larger
cat squared off with one that cat usually went crying for momma. There
was a truce in our house between the ferrets and the cats. I watched
them hunt. One ferret named McDuff had a passion for stuff animals.
Teddy bears. We would periodically place a teddy bear in a difficult
location to see how long it would take him to make the kill. I've seen
McDuff make leaps that would astound a full grown cat. Ferrets are not
known for their ability to jump. Why I do not know. Their bodies are
like little springs. They bend in half and let go like a bow with a
broken string.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
> ... I had been lead to believe that the UK had a feral or
> semi feral domestic cat breed population that was the dominant
> predator ...

No as I know of.
The wild ancestor of the domestic cat still exists in far-out wilds
in Scotland, apparently.

David - I am far down the West Country now. Anywhere near?

On 18/12/2022 20:45, Richard Smith wrote:
> David - I am far down the West Country now. Anywhere near?

Near Bath, where are you.