Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.

People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.

https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items

https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/

But then that is why he is called Flunky.

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 2:48:02 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>
> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>
> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>
> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>
> But then that is why he is called Flunky.

No one ever said cables don't stretch, you moron. What I'm referring to is your laughable claim that campy made special non-stretch shifter cables. The internet never forgets, unlike you.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ
On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 4:00:02 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> don't pretend that I don't know how to lube my chain when chain skipping on the Campy 10 speeds is a common problem until Campy started building special non-stretch cables.

Watch out sparky, or I'll hack you email again!!!!

On 11/14/2022 2:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>
> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>
> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>
> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>
> But then that is why he is called Flunky.

SMH yet again.

I don't know what's confusing you at the moment, Tom. State your point
concisely and we can talk about it.

We can discuss the actual amount of stretch in a cable when, say, a
person shifts gears. I think we can also suggest ways of measuring it
directly. But to give you an advance hint: It won't be much. Even if the
cables aren't magical "Campy non-stretch cables."

Would you like to discuss that? (Warning - it might be too technical for
you.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 15:56:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/14/2022 2:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/
>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/

>We can discuss the actual amount of stretch in a cable when, say, a
>person shifts gears. I think we can also suggest ways of measuring it
>directly. But to give you an advance hint: It won't be much. Even if the
>cables aren't magical "Campy non-stretch cables."

Neither article says anything about how much a shifter cable might
stretch. If Campagnolo had discovered a way to build non-stretch
cables, it would all over their literature, and probably patented.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=campagnolo+non-stretch+cable>
https://www.google.com/search?q=campagnolo+cable+stretch>
Oddly, I did find one advertisement for Campagnolo Ultrashift Cable
Set which proclaims that Campagnolo provides "Pre-Stretched stainless
steel inner cable". Apparently there are other vendors that off such
cables:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=Campagnolo+Pre-Stretched+stainless+steel+inner+cable>

We can argue whether "pre-stretched" is the same as "non-stretch". In
my never humble opinion, non-stretch implies that it will never
stretch (again) and that the rider will never need to make
adjustments. Pre-stretched implies that the cable might and probably
will stretch again.

As usual, such magazine articles lack any references to test results,
measurements, manufacturers specifications, etc. In other words, the
numbers needed to make a proper determination are lacking.

As for Campagnolo patents on non-stretch cables, I find nothing:
<https://patents.google.com/?q=non-stretch+cable&assignee=campagnolo>
<https://patents.google.com/?q=pre-stretched+cable&assignee=campagnolo>

More:
"Do Bike Cables Stretch: Fact or Myth - stretching & wear"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cc7xQ2NHvg>
"This probably doesn't really "stretch" the cable (part of the
"myth"), but rather firmly pulls the cable housing and the housing
ferrule into the cable housing stops."

>Would you like to discuss that? (Warning - it might be too technical for
>you.)

Actually, I'm impressed that Tom has now descended from his lofty
perch and condescended to provide two relevant URL's as substantiation
for his claim. This is real progress for Tom and should not be ruined
by asking him to do the math.

Personally, I would not look for plastic elongation in the cable. It's
not elastic deformation because the cable would return to its original
length after the tension is removed. It's probably not plastic
deformation because nobody seems to have bothered to perform a before
and after length measurement. Instead, I would look for some kind of
wear between the edges of the spirals in the cable housing.

More:
"Understanding Stretch in Wire Rope and Cable"
<https://blog.strandcore.com/blog/understanding-stretch-in-wire-rope-and-cable>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 15:56:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/14/2022 2:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>>
>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>>
>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>>
>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>>
>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
>
>SMH yet again.
>
>I don't know what's confusing you at the moment, Tom. State your point
>concisely and we can talk about it.
>
>We can discuss the actual amount of stretch in a cable when, say, a
>person shifts gears. I think we can also suggest ways of measuring it
>directly. But to give you an advance hint: It won't be much. Even if the
>cables aren't magical "Campy non-stretch cables."
>
>Would you like to discuss that? (Warning - it might be too technical for
>you.)

Well all cables stretch, every one ever made Even the great big cables
used in suspension bridges stretch
https://blog.loosco.com/bid/42817/how-to-calculate-wire-rope-and-cable-stretch
So, once again Tommy proves that there is no limit to human stupidity.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/14/2022 5:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 15:56:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Would you like to discuss that? (Warning - it might be too technical for
>> you.)
>
> Actually, I'm impressed that Tom has now descended from his lofty
> perch and condescended to provide two relevant URL's as substantiation
> for his claim. This is real progress for Tom and should not be ruined
> by asking him to do the math.

It's real progress for Tom, but only because his default state is almost
total ignorance. He didn't state his position clearly, and the two links
he gave did nothing much to justify what seems to be his position. One
is a short piece on topic but with no evidence other than undocumented
opinion. The other is a collection of vaguely related paragraphs, like
"How tight should a zip line be?" and "Where is the barrel adjuster?"

>
> Personally, I would not look for plastic elongation in the cable. It's
> not elastic deformation because the cable would return to its original
> length after the tension is removed.

I think you made an editing mistake there. Cable elongation in a bicycle
is elastic. It's not plastic. The cable will recover to initial
conditions when load is removed.

> It's probably not plastic
> deformation because nobody seems to have bothered to perform a before
> and after length measurement. Instead, I would look for some kind of
> wear between the edges of the spirals in the cable housing.

Or cables better settling into a final equilibrium position, or cable
ends seating more firmly, or slight wear of cable liners on the inside
of bends, etc.

> More:
> "Understanding Stretch in Wire Rope and Cable"
> <https://blog.strandcore.com/blog/understanding-stretch-in-wire-rope-and-cable>

Tom should understand that cables are used in millions of non-bike
applications. Their behavior is well understood. His confusion is
analogous to asking "Does F really equal m times a for bicycles??"

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 11:48:00 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>
>People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>
>https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>
>https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>
>But then that is why he is called Flunky.

Well Tommy, I read your references and then I did some research
https://www.wirerope-sling.com/sale-10785290-steel-bicycle-brake-cable-corrosion-resistance-1960-mpa-tensile-strength.html
And, assuming top quality cables, the breaking strength for 1.2mm
cables is 108 kg, 1.5 - 170 kg and 1.6 - 190 kg. Your article seems
to say they permanent stretch is at about 60% of breaking strength
https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
So to stretch cables requires a load of 65kg(143 lbs) for 1.2mm
cables, 102kg(224 lbs) for 1.5mm and 114kg(251 lbs) for 1.6mm

The average "grip strength" for men is

https://theconversation.com/how-strong-your-grip-is-says-a-lot-about-your-health-145861
In people aged 20-29 years old, average grip strength is 46kg for men
and 29kg for women. This decreases to 39kg and 23.5kg by the time a
person reaches 60-69 years of age.

You must be Superman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 18:24:42 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/14/2022 5:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 15:56:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Would you like to discuss that? (Warning - it might be too technical for
>>> you.)
>>
>> Actually, I'm impressed that Tom has now descended from his lofty
>> perch and condescended to provide two relevant URL's as substantiation
>> for his claim. This is real progress for Tom and should not be ruined
>> by asking him to do the math.
>
>It's real progress for Tom, but only because his default state is almost
>total ignorance. He didn't state his position clearly, and the two links
>he gave did nothing much to justify what seems to be his position. One
>is a short piece on topic but with no evidence other than undocumented
>opinion. The other is a collection of vaguely related paragraphs, like
>"How tight should a zip line be?" and "Where is the barrel adjuster?"
>
>>
>> Personally, I would not look for plastic elongation in the cable. It's
>> not elastic deformation because the cable would return to its original
>> length after the tension is removed.
>
>I think you made an editing mistake there. Cable elongation in a bicycle
>is elastic. It's not plastic. The cable will recover to initial
>conditions when load is removed.

Thanks. I fumbled the wording. I deleted the first part of "If
elongation was observed, I would not look for plastic deformation..."
and failed to adjust the rest of the sentence. Sorry.

>> It's probably not plastic
>> deformation because nobody seems to have bothered to perform a before
>> and after length measurement. Instead, I would look for some kind of
>> wear between the edges of the spirals in the cable housing.
>
>Or cables better settling into a final equilibrium position, or cable
>ends seating more firmly, or slight wear of cable liners on the inside
>of bends, etc.

That seems to be the consensus for explaining cable "stretch". It's
something like chain stretch, where the chain doesn't stretch but the
pins wear. My comment was in reference to looking for some source of
wear causing the cable to elongate. I assumed that there would be a
break-in period allowing everything to settle in place. If it was
done from an initial installation, with brand new parts, the test
would not be for cable stretch, but rather for break-in period.

However, if "stretch" is observed after a suitable breaking, I would
look for wear in the spiral cable housing.

>> More:
>> "Understanding Stretch in Wire Rope and Cable"
>> <https://blog.strandcore.com/blog/understanding-stretch-in-wire-rope-and-cable>
>
>Tom should understand that cables are used in millions of non-bike
>applications. Their behavior is well understood. His confusion is
>analogous to asking "Does F really equal m times a for bicycles??"

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 11:48:00 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control
>> cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained
>> this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>>
>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction
>> shifters are better than indexed levers.
>>
>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>>
>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>>
>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
>
> Well Tommy, I read your references and then I did some research
> https://www.wirerope-sling.com/sale-10785290-steel-bicycle-brake-cable-corrosion-resistance-1960-mpa-tensile-strength.html
> And, assuming top quality cables, the breaking strength for 1.2mm
> cables is 108 kg, 1.5 - 170 kg and 1.6 - 190 kg. Your article seems
> to say they permanent stretch is at about 60% of breaking strength
> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
> So to stretch cables requires a load of 65kg(143 lbs) for 1.2mm
> cables, 102kg(224 lbs) for 1.5mm and 114kg(251 lbs) for 1.6mm
>
> The average "grip strength" for men is
>
> https://theconversation.com/how-strong-your-grip-is-says-a-lot-about-your-health-145861
> In people aged 20-29 years old, average grip strength is 46kg for men
> and 29kg for women. This decreases to 39kg and 23.5kg by the time a
> person reaches 60-69 years of age.
>
> You must be Superman.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman

You failed to account for the mechanical advantage of the lever in
question.

On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 02:51:29 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
<ralph@invalid.com> wrote:

>John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 11:48:00 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control
>>> cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained
>>> this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>>>
>>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction
>>> shifters are better than indexed levers.
>>>
>>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>>>
>>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>>>
>>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
>>
>> Well Tommy, I read your references and then I did some research
>> https://www.wirerope-sling.com/sale-10785290-steel-bicycle-brake-cable-corrosion-resistance-1960-mpa-tensile-strength.html
>> And, assuming top quality cables, the breaking strength for 1.2mm
>> cables is 108 kg, 1.5 - 170 kg and 1.6 - 190 kg. Your article seems
>> to say they permanent stretch is at about 60% of breaking strength
>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>> So to stretch cables requires a load of 65kg(143 lbs) for 1.2mm
>> cables, 102kg(224 lbs) for 1.5mm and 114kg(251 lbs) for 1.6mm
>>
>> The average "grip strength" for men is
>>
>> https://theconversation.com/how-strong-your-grip-is-says-a-lot-about-your-health-145861
>> In people aged 20-29 years old, average grip strength is 46kg for men
>> and 29kg for women. This decreases to 39kg and 23.5kg by the time a
>> person reaches 60-69 years of age.
>>
>> You must be Superman.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman
>
>You failed to account for the mechanical advantage of the lever in
>question.

Not really. I have friction down tube shifters on my Bangkok bike,,
but even with "brifters" I still shift with one finger, which
certainly can't exert sufficient force to stretch steel cables. And
even with brakes I usually brake with, usually, two fingers. Hardly
the force that one can exert with a full fist.
Rather like Tommy's assertion that "believe that friction
shifters are better than indexed levers". After all, I can't remember
having missed a shift with friction shifters. Not to say that I never
missed a shift but it was certainly not often enough that I remember
it. Are indexed shifters better then that?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>
> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>
> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>
> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>
> But then that is why he is called Flunky.

I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.

Lou

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 22:32:29 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>>
>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>>
>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>>
>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>>
>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
>
>I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
>
>Lou

The "Bowden" cable was patented in 1896 in England and the U.S. I find
it strange that a device that has been in use for some 130 years works
so poorly today (:-)

After all, bikes used to have brakes operated by solid rods, which
obviously didn't "stretch".
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5E1m0hXiOlw/UHyh3BxD3aI/AAAAAAAAAMU/HtYeLIJ57YI/s1600/DSCN2287b.jpg
Why did they change (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 5:37:56 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> As for Campagnolo patents on non-stretch cables, I find nothing:
> <https://patents.google.com/?q=non-stretch+cable&assignee=campagnolo>
> <https://patents.google.com/?q=pre-stretched+cable&assignee=campagnolo>

Yes, that was previously addressed here:

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/csOVQ3qa2ko/m/pHje0rQ2AQAJ

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 1:32:31 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
> >
> > People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
> >
> > https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
> >
> > https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
> >
> > But then that is why he is called Flunky.
> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
>
> Lou
+1

On 11/15/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>>
>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>>
>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>>
>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>>
>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
>
> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
>
> Lou
>

+1
Cable heads seat fully, casing ends seat into ferrules and
ferrules into stops. The wire doesn't stretch.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:32:31 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
> >
> > People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
> >
> > https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
> >
> > https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
> >
> > But then that is why he is called Flunky.
> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.

The inner control wire is essentially a spring. Pulling on it causes it to stretch a bit as it uncoils and pulls up the spare space between wires. Campy simply pre-stretches it to prevent it stretching further in use. Campy control levers have very little motion and so any stretch at all is dangerous and can cause failure of brakes especially. I have never had a Campy 10 speed shifter have to be readjusted during or after a ride when using Campy shift cables. Nor brakes which are a safety factor. I HAVE had other Chinese cables stretch and so I am not careful to per-stretch them

I agree with you that stretch is probably not a good term but it is in use.

On 11/15/2022 9:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:32:31 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>>>
>>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>>>
>>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>>>
>>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>>>
>>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
>> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
>
> The inner control wire is essentially a spring. Pulling on it causes it to stretch a bit as it uncoils and pulls up the spare space between wires. Campy simply pre-stretches it to prevent it stretching further in use. Campy control levers have very little motion and so any stretch at all is dangerous and can cause failure of brakes especially. I have never had a Campy 10 speed shifter have to be readjusted during or after a ride when using Campy shift cables. Nor brakes which are a safety factor. I HAVE had other Chinese cables stretch and so I am not careful to per-stretch them
>
> I agree with you that stretch is probably not a good term but it is in use.
>

That's not what happens.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:06:46 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/15/2022 9:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:32:31 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
> >>>
> >>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
> >>>
> >>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
> >>>
> >>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
> >>>
> >>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
> >> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
> >
> > The inner control wire is essentially a spring. Pulling on it causes it to stretch a bit as it uncoils and pulls up the spare space between wires. Campy simply pre-stretches it to prevent it stretching further in use. Campy control levers have very little motion and so any stretch at all is dangerous and can cause failure of brakes especially. I have never had a Campy 10 speed shifter have to be readjusted during or after a ride when using Campy shift cables. Nor brakes which are a safety factor. I HAVE had other Chinese cables stretch and so I am not careful to per-stretch them
> >
> > I agree with you that stretch is probably not a good term but it is in use.
> >
> That's not what happens.

The tension in a shift cable is to low for that. Another misunderstanding is calling adjustment ‘lower or increasing’ cable tension. That is also not what is happening.

Lou

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:49:35 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/15/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
> >>
> >> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
> >>
> >> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
> >>
> >> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
> >>
> >> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
> >
> > I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> +1
> Cable heads seat fully, casing ends seat into ferrules and
> ferrules into stops. The wire doesn't stretch.

If you're using Campy cables on Campy levers there is no additional seating.. I just wired my new Tommasini yesterday and attempted to find any play but using Campy brake cables and Campy or Shimano shift cables leaves no seating problems. You DO have to prestretch the Shimano wires which isn't necessary on the Campy. All of the connections on the shift are in the lever and only one outer on the frame, they all fit with enough slack that they cannot "seat" any further. Yet the Shimano cable had to be tightened three times before if could shift the front derailleur properly. This doesn't occur using Campy cables.

On 11/15/2022 3:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:49:35 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/15/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>>>>
>>>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>>>>
>>>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>>>>
>>>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>>>>
>>>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
>>>
>>> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>> +1
>> Cable heads seat fully, casing ends seat into ferrules and
>> ferrules into stops. The wire doesn't stretch.
>
> If you're using Campy cables on Campy levers there is no additional seating. I just wired my new Tommasini yesterday and attempted to find any play but using Campy brake cables and Campy or Shimano shift cables leaves no seating problems. You DO have to prestretch the Shimano wires which isn't necessary on the Campy. All of the connections on the shift are in the lever and only one outer on the frame, they all fit with enough slack that they cannot "seat" any further. Yet the Shimano cable had to be tightened three times before if could shift the front derailleur properly. This doesn't occur using Campy cables.
>

The wires themselves are not different in that regard, only
in head diameter.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 1:29:20 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/15/2022 3:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:49:35 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 11/15/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
> >>>>
> >>>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
> >>>>
> >>>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
> >>>>
> >>>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
> >>>
> >>> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >>>
> >> +1
> >> Cable heads seat fully, casing ends seat into ferrules and
> >> ferrules into stops. The wire doesn't stretch.
> >
> > If you're using Campy cables on Campy levers there is no additional seating. I just wired my new Tommasini yesterday and attempted to find any play but using Campy brake cables and Campy or Shimano shift cables leaves no seating problems. You DO have to prestretch the Shimano wires which isn't necessary on the Campy. All of the connections on the shift are in the lever and only one outer on the frame, they all fit with enough slack that they cannot "seat" any further. Yet the Shimano cable had to be tightened three times before if could shift the front derailleur properly. This doesn't occur using Campy cables.
> >
> The wires themselves are not different in that regard, only
> in head diameter.

Perhaps the Shimano shift ends are larger than the Campagnolo but I seem to remember that I had one of the shifters disassembled and looked at it and they both fit the same so I bought Shimano since they were cheaper. The brake ends are definitely different. With Campy shift wires I thread it through, take a pair of pliers and pull it up tight and lock it down and it rarely even needs adjustment if the limit screws are correctly adjusted. But there is always fiddling around with it with Shimano wires. But once set they don't change. But the brakes have so little clearance that I always use Campy brake wires because I don't want the brakes growing slack on me. I just came down a descent that had me controlling my speed the whole way down because of bad pavement. I would hate to have my brakes loosening up in a case like that.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 11:30:08 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 1:29:20 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 11/15/2022 3:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:49:35 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 11/15/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
> > >>>>
> > >>>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
> > >>>>
> > >>>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
> > >>>
> > >>> Lou
> > >>>
> > >> +1
> > >> Cable heads seat fully, casing ends seat into ferrules and
> > >> ferrules into stops. The wire doesn't stretch.
> > >
> > > If you're using Campy cables on Campy levers there is no additional seating. I just wired my new Tommasini yesterday and attempted to find any play but using Campy brake cables and Campy or Shimano shift cables leaves no seating problems. You DO have to prestretch the Shimano wires which isn't necessary on the Campy. All of the connections on the shift are in the lever and only one outer on the frame, they all fit with enough slack that they cannot "seat" any further. Yet the Shimano cable had to be tightened three times before if could shift the front derailleur properly. This doesn't occur using Campy cables.
> > >
> > The wires themselves are not different in that regard, only
> > in head diameter.
> Perhaps the Shimano shift ends are larger than the Campagnolo but I seem to remember that I had one of the shifters disassembled and looked at it and they both fit the same so I bought Shimano since they were cheaper. The brake ends are definitely different. With Campy shift wires I thread it through, take a pair of pliers and pull it up tight and lock it down and it rarely even needs adjustment if the limit screws are correctly adjusted. But there is always fiddling around with it with Shimano wires. But once set they don't change. But the brakes have so little clearance that I always use Campy brake wires because I don't want the brakes growing slack on me. I just came down a descent that had me controlling my speed the whole way down because of bad pavement. I would hate to have my brakes loosening up in a case like that.

The ‘blob’ on Shimano shift cables are definitely bigger than than the ones on Campagnolo shift cables.

Lou

On 11/15/2022 4:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 1:29:20 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/15/2022 3:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:49:35 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 11/15/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>> Cable heads seat fully, casing ends seat into ferrules and
>>>> ferrules into stops. The wire doesn't stretch.
>>>
>>> If you're using Campy cables on Campy levers there is no additional seating. I just wired my new Tommasini yesterday and attempted to find any play but using Campy brake cables and Campy or Shimano shift cables leaves no seating problems. You DO have to prestretch the Shimano wires which isn't necessary on the Campy. All of the connections on the shift are in the lever and only one outer on the frame, they all fit with enough slack that they cannot "seat" any further. Yet the Shimano cable had to be tightened three times before if could shift the front derailleur properly. This doesn't occur using Campy cables.
>>>
>> The wires themselves are not different in that regard, only
>> in head diameter.
>
> Perhaps the Shimano shift ends are larger than the Campagnolo but I seem to remember that I had one of the shifters disassembled and looked at it and they both fit the same so I bought Shimano since they were cheaper. The brake ends are definitely different. With Campy shift wires I thread it through, take a pair of pliers and pull it up tight and lock it down and it rarely even needs adjustment if the limit screws are correctly adjusted. But there is always fiddling around with it with Shimano wires. But once set they don't change. But the brakes have so little clearance that I always use Campy brake wires because I don't want the brakes growing slack on me. I just came down a descent that had me controlling my speed the whole way down because of bad pavement. I would hate to have my brakes loosening up in a case like that.
>

Campagnolo and Shimano brake wires are not different in that
regard.

Shimano brake cable heads are longer and can drag on the
brake lever blade in an Ergo. A pass of a file on the back
gives clearance. Otherwise they are the same. There is
substandard junk in the world but Shimano and Campagnolo
brake/gear wires are not among them.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 2:41:16 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/15/2022 4:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 1:29:20 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 11/15/2022 3:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:49:35 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 11/15/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lou
> >>>>>
> >>>> +1
> >>>> Cable heads seat fully, casing ends seat into ferrules and
> >>>> ferrules into stops. The wire doesn't stretch.
> >>>
> >>> If you're using Campy cables on Campy levers there is no additional seating. I just wired my new Tommasini yesterday and attempted to find any play but using Campy brake cables and Campy or Shimano shift cables leaves no seating problems. You DO have to prestretch the Shimano wires which isn't necessary on the Campy. All of the connections on the shift are in the lever and only one outer on the frame, they all fit with enough slack that they cannot "seat" any further. Yet the Shimano cable had to be tightened three times before if could shift the front derailleur properly. This doesn't occur using Campy cables.
> >>>
> >> The wires themselves are not different in that regard, only
> >> in head diameter.
> >
> > Perhaps the Shimano shift ends are larger than the Campagnolo but I seem to remember that I had one of the shifters disassembled and looked at it and they both fit the same so I bought Shimano since they were cheaper. The brake ends are definitely different. With Campy shift wires I thread it through, take a pair of pliers and pull it up tight and lock it down and it rarely even needs adjustment if the limit screws are correctly adjusted. But there is always fiddling around with it with Shimano wires. But once set they don't change. But the brakes have so little clearance that I always use Campy brake wires because I don't want the brakes growing slack on me. I just came down a descent that had me controlling my speed the whole way down because of bad pavement. I would hate to have my brakes loosening up in a case like that.
> >
> Campagnolo and Shimano brake wires are not different in that
> regard.
>
> Shimano brake cable heads are longer and can drag on the
> brake lever blade in an Ergo. A pass of a file on the back
> gives clearance. Otherwise they are the same. There is
> substandard junk in the world but Shimano and Campagnolo
> brake/gear wires are not among them.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
The diameter of a Shimano brake cable is just enough larger that they will stick in the cable end holder. On several occasions I have had them stick so tight that it was extremely difficult to get them out and I had to resort to sharp edge tools. The Campy ends do not do this.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 2:40:54 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 11:30:08 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 1:29:20 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 11/15/2022 3:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:49:35 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >> On 11/15/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > >>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > >>>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Lou
> > > >>>
> > > >> +1
> > > >> Cable heads seat fully, casing ends seat into ferrules and
> > > >> ferrules into stops. The wire doesn't stretch.
> > > >
> > > > If you're using Campy cables on Campy levers there is no additional seating. I just wired my new Tommasini yesterday and attempted to find any play but using Campy brake cables and Campy or Shimano shift cables leaves no seating problems. You DO have to prestretch the Shimano wires which isn't necessary on the Campy. All of the connections on the shift are in the lever and only one outer on the frame, they all fit with enough slack that they cannot "seat" any further. Yet the Shimano cable had to be tightened three times before if could shift the front derailleur properly. This doesn't occur using Campy cables.
> > > >
> > > The wires themselves are not different in that regard, only
> > > in head diameter.
> > Perhaps the Shimano shift ends are larger than the Campagnolo but I seem to remember that I had one of the shifters disassembled and looked at it and they both fit the same so I bought Shimano since they were cheaper. The brake ends are definitely different. With Campy shift wires I thread it through, take a pair of pliers and pull it up tight and lock it down and it rarely even needs adjustment if the limit screws are correctly adjusted. But there is always fiddling around with it with Shimano wires. But once set they don't change. But the brakes have so little clearance that I always use Campy brake wires because I don't want the brakes growing slack on me. I just came down a descent that had me controlling my speed the whole way down because of bad pavement. I would hate to have my brakes loosening up in a case like that.
> The ‘blob’ on Shimano shift cables are definitely bigger than than the ones on Campagnolo shift cables.
>
> Lou
+1