On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 14:40:52 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>The ‘blob’ on Shimano shift cables are definitely bigger than than the ones on Campagnolo shift cables.
>Lou

This article describes the differences between Campagnolo and Shimano
cables, housings, ends etc:

"Bicycle shifter, brake cable, and housing standards"
<https://bike.bikegremlin.com/8548/cable-housing-standards/>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/15/2022 4:49 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 2:41:16 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/15/2022 4:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 1:29:20 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 11/15/2022 3:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:49:35 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/15/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>> Cable heads seat fully, casing ends seat into ferrules and
>>>>>> ferrules into stops. The wire doesn't stretch.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you're using Campy cables on Campy levers there is no additional seating. I just wired my new Tommasini yesterday and attempted to find any play but using Campy brake cables and Campy or Shimano shift cables leaves no seating problems. You DO have to prestretch the Shimano wires which isn't necessary on the Campy. All of the connections on the shift are in the lever and only one outer on the frame, they all fit with enough slack that they cannot "seat" any further. Yet the Shimano cable had to be tightened three times before if could shift the front derailleur properly. This doesn't occur using Campy cables.
>>>>>
>>>> The wires themselves are not different in that regard, only
>>>> in head diameter.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the Shimano shift ends are larger than the Campagnolo but I seem to remember that I had one of the shifters disassembled and looked at it and they both fit the same so I bought Shimano since they were cheaper. The brake ends are definitely different. With Campy shift wires I thread it through, take a pair of pliers and pull it up tight and lock it down and it rarely even needs adjustment if the limit screws are correctly adjusted. But there is always fiddling around with it with Shimano wires. But once set they don't change. But the brakes have so little clearance that I always use Campy brake wires because I don't want the brakes growing slack on me. I just came down a descent that had me controlling my speed the whole way down because of bad pavement. I would hate to have my brakes loosening up in a case like that.
>>>
>> Campagnolo and Shimano brake wires are not different in that
>> regard.
>>
>> Shimano brake cable heads are longer and can drag on the
>> brake lever blade in an Ergo. A pass of a file on the back
>> gives clearance. Otherwise they are the same. There is
>> substandard junk in the world but Shimano and Campagnolo
>> brake/gear wires are not among them.

> The diameter of a Shimano brake cable is just enough larger that they will stick in the cable end holder. On several occasions I have had them stick so tight that it was extremely difficult to get them out and I had to resort to sharp edge tools. The Campy ends do not do this.
>

That was a Shimano gear wire, not brake.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:41:13 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 11/15/2022 4:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 1:29:20 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2022 3:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:49:35 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 11/15/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>> Cable heads seat fully, casing ends seat into ferrules and
>>>>> ferrules into stops. The wire doesn't stretch.
>>>>
>>>> If you're using Campy cables on Campy levers there is no additional seating. I just wired my new Tommasini yesterday and attempted to find any play but using Campy brake cables and Campy or Shimano shift cables leaves no seating problems. You DO have to prestretch the Shimano wires which isn't necessary on the Campy. All of the connections on the shift are in the lever and only one outer on the frame, they all fit with enough slack that they cannot "seat" any further. Yet the Shimano cable had to be tightened three times before if could shift the front derailleur properly. This doesn't occur using Campy cables.
>>>>
>>> The wires themselves are not different in that regard, only
>>> in head diameter.
>>
>> Perhaps the Shimano shift ends are larger than the Campagnolo but I seem to remember that I had one of the shifters disassembled and looked at it and they both fit the same so I bought Shimano since they were cheaper. The brake ends are definitely different. With Campy shift wires I thread it through, take a pair of pliers and pull it up tight and lock it down and it rarely even needs adjustment if the limit screws are correctly adjusted. But there is always fiddling around with it with Shimano wires. But once set they don't change. But the brakes have so little clearance that I always use Campy brake wires because I don't want the brakes growing slack on me. I just came down a descent that had me controlling my speed the whole way down because of bad pavement. I would hate to have my brakes loosening up in a case like that.
>>
>
>Campagnolo and Shimano brake wires are not different in that
>regard.
>
>Shimano brake cable heads are longer and can drag on the
>brake lever blade in an Ergo. A pass of a file on the back
>gives clearance. Otherwise they are the same. There is
>substandard junk in the world but Shimano and Campagnolo
>brake/gear wires are not among them.

The secret is.... install Shimano cables in Shimano controls and
Campagnolo in Campagnolo controls (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/15/2022 2:35 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:06:46 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/15/2022 9:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:32:31 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
>>>>>
>>>>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
>>>>>
>>>>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
>>>>>
>>>>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
>>>> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
>>>
>>> The inner control wire is essentially a spring. Pulling on it causes it to stretch a bit as it uncoils and pulls up the spare space between wires. Campy simply pre-stretches it to prevent it stretching further in use. Campy control levers have very little motion and so any stretch at all is dangerous and can cause failure of brakes especially. I have never had a Campy 10 speed shifter have to be readjusted during or after a ride when using Campy shift cables. Nor brakes which are a safety factor. I HAVE had other Chinese cables stretch and so I am not careful to per-stretch them
>>>
>>> I agree with you that stretch is probably not a good term but it is in use.
>>>
>> That's not what happens.
>
> The tension in a shift cable is to low for that. Another misunderstanding is calling adjustment ‘lower or increasing’ cable tension. That is also not what is happening.

+1

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 7:53:19 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:41:13 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 11/15/2022 4:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 1:29:20 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 11/15/2022 3:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:49:35 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 11/15/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:48:02 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>> Again I am informed that Flunky doesn't know anything about control cable stretch. I would have thought that Andrew would have explained this to him, but instead he just allows him to go on like the Flunky he is.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> People that don't believe in cable stretch also believe that friction shifters are better than indexed levers.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/training-guide/maintenance/what-is-cable-stretch-and-why-you-should-pre-stretch-cables-for-better-shifting-and-braking/#:~:text=8%20Cable%20Pre-Stretching%20Steps%201%20With%20the%20handlebars,5%20Do%20your%20final%20tuning.%20...%20More%20items
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://bikehike.org/do-bicycle-cables-stretch/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But then that is why he is called Flunky.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think stretch is the wrong word for what is happening. I would use the word settling.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> +1
> >>>>> Cable heads seat fully, casing ends seat into ferrules and
> >>>>> ferrules into stops. The wire doesn't stretch.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you're using Campy cables on Campy levers there is no additional seating. I just wired my new Tommasini yesterday and attempted to find any play but using Campy brake cables and Campy or Shimano shift cables leaves no seating problems. You DO have to prestretch the Shimano wires which isn't necessary on the Campy. All of the connections on the shift are in the lever and only one outer on the frame, they all fit with enough slack that they cannot "seat" any further. Yet the Shimano cable had to be tightened three times before if could shift the front derailleur properly. This doesn't occur using Campy cables.
> >>>>
> >>> The wires themselves are not different in that regard, only
> >>> in head diameter.
> >>
> >> Perhaps the Shimano shift ends are larger than the Campagnolo but I seem to remember that I had one of the shifters disassembled and looked at it and they both fit the same so I bought Shimano since they were cheaper. The brake ends are definitely different. With Campy shift wires I thread it through, take a pair of pliers and pull it up tight and lock it down and it rarely even needs adjustment if the limit screws are correctly adjusted. But there is always fiddling around with it with Shimano wires. But once set they don't change. But the brakes have so little clearance that I always use Campy brake wires because I don't want the brakes growing slack on me. I just came down a descent that had me controlling my speed the whole way down because of bad pavement. I would hate to have my brakes loosening up in a case like that.
> >>
> >
> >Campagnolo and Shimano brake wires are not different in that
> >regard.
> >
> >Shimano brake cable heads are longer and can drag on the
> >brake lever blade in an Ergo. A pass of a file on the back
> >gives clearance. Otherwise they are the same. There is
> >substandard junk in the world but Shimano and Campagnolo
> >brake/gear wires are not among them.
> The secret is.... install Shimano cables in Shimano controls and
> Campagnolo in Campagnolo controls (:-)
> --

DAmmit John, now you've done it....Just think of the entertainment value we'll miss out from tommy's foibles now!

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 4:17:56 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> If you're using Campy cables on Campy levers there is no additional seating.

Not my experience....Andrew?

> I just wired my new Tommasini yesterday and attempted to find any play but using Campy brake cables and Campy or Shimano shift cables leaves no seating problems.

Wait, now there are no seating problems with shimano cables either?

> You DO have to prestretch the Shimano wires which isn't necessary on the Campy.

Enlighten us, of great oracle of special-non-stretch cables, How do you go about "pre-stretching" shimano cables?

> All of the connections on the shift are in the lever and only one outer on the frame, they all fit with enough slack that they cannot "seat" any further.
> Yet the Shimano cable had to be tightened three times before if could shift the front derailleur properly. This doesn't occur using Campy cables.

LOL, so everything fits such that there are no seating issues, and we already established previously that there isn't enough cable tension to cause any measurable stretching, yet you had to "tighten" the cable 3 times to get it to shift right. What exactly was it you were tightening if not to compensate for settling or stretching? (I suppose the barrel adjuster would qualify to dial it in, but somehow these magic non-stretch campy cables don't require that? hmmmm.....)