On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:53:25 +1000, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
wrote:

>On 28-Jul-21 2:19 pm, Rick C wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:06:28 AM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> On 28-Jul-21 1:54 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:22:09 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>> On 28-Jul-21 12:12 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:50:56 AM UTC+10, Petzl wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:53:16 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> The vaccines we have received were based on the original Covid-19 strain
>>>>>>>> out of China. The dominant strain around the world is the Delta variant,
>>>>>>>> so the most likely mutations that a person will encounter in the near
>>>>>>>> term will derive from that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since a full vaccinated person seems to be well protected against
>>>>>>>> serious illness from the Delta variant, exposure to it will provide the
>>>>>>>> immune system with a heads up about something closer to a future mutation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just a thought.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not a good one. If the immune system gets exposed to enough of the Delta strain, it could create new antibodies (and new killer T-cells) that were active against it.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not going to learn anything about future mutations.
>>>>> The antibodies are against bits of protein, not against the sum total of
>>>>> the virus. As a virus mutates, bits of protein change, and the
>>>>> antibodies against those bits in the original virus will no longer work.
>>>>> So mutations progressively render antibodies ineffective.
>>>>>
>>>>> Expose the immune system to a more recent variant, being an ancestor of
>>>>> some hypothetical future strain, and the immune systems gets a chance to
>>>>> produce antibodies against the changed bits of protein. The future
>>>>> strain will again render some antibodies ineffective, but having learned
>>>>> from the more recent variant, the immune system will still have more
>>>>> antibodies that still work.
>>>>
>>>> Tell that to the people who make vaccines against seasonal influenza.
>>>>
>>> Influenza has a very high mutation rate, and there are already multiple
>>> virulent strains.
>>>
>>> That doesn't mean my specific suggestion about the Delta variant and its
>>> offspring is wrong.
>>
>> Your suggestion doesn't have a basis in logic. If I understand what you are suggesting it is based on the idea that the variants each modify the genome a bit and that small variation causes reduced effectiveness in the vaccines which accumulate. So getting the disease from a more recent disease variant gives you a "current" resistance and therefore more immunity.
>>
>> That is a flawed understanding of the disease and how the vaccines work. The vaccines target separate small fragments of various proteins. Unless the mutations of the variants are in the specific genome of the targeted protein there is no direct impact on the action of the vaccine. Much more likely according to the evidence is that any change in the effectiveness of a vaccine from viral mutations simply happens because the mutation makes the virus more infective in general. It has little to nothing to do with the mutation impacting the targeted protein.
>>
>
>I haven't been able to find support for the idea that the vaccines only
>produce small fragments of the various proteins. Indeed, claims that the
>spike protein is a toxin (not supported by evidence) have notably not be
>countered by statements that only bits of the protein are produced anyway.
>
>The cellular machinery chops up the protein in due course, as it does
>with all proteins, and fragments are exposed on the cell surface.
>
>On this basis, any mutations in the virus affecting the spike protein
>will affect the effectiveness of those antibodies are were targetting
>the part of the protein that has been changed.

Yes, that is exactly how it works.

The current mRNA vaccines deliver a bit of messenger RNA that
instructs some hapless muscle cells (typically in the Deltiod Muscle)
to make the COVID19 spike protein and transport the entire spike to
the outer cell wall, where the immune system will see it.

The muscle cell also collects, chops up, and displays fragments of all
proteins found within that cell for the immune system also to see. No
single fragment tells the whole story - it's the whole collection of
fragments that count.

The fragments related to manufacturing the spike protein will be new
to the immune system, as will the spike protein itself. So, the
immune system will kill that unfortunate muscle cell, and in the
process remember these strange antigens it found, and be ready when
these antigens are later seen.

The DNA vaccines work much the same, except that the instructions to
make the spike protein and insert it into the cell wall are encoded in
DNA, which the muscle cell promptly converts to messenger RNA.

As COVID19 evolves into new variants, the above process still works,
but not quite as well, but greatly reduces the intensity of disease
due to the variant. Now, the immune system is training to the new
variant, just as for the vaccine, but now tuned to the variant.

This process can chain forever, so long as one does not wait so long
that the evolved COVID19 is no longer affected by the immunity
acquired during the last vaccination or infection. This is how a
population achieves enduring herd immunity.

Overly draconian lockdowns can break the chain.

Joe Gwinn

On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 7:53:23 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
> The vaccines we have received were based on the original Covid-19 strain
> out of China. The dominant strain around the world is the Delta variant,
> so the most likely mutations that a person will encounter in the near
> term will derive from that.
>
> Since a full vaccinated person seems to be well protected against
> serious illness from the Delta variant, exposure to it will provide the
> immune system with a heads up about something closer to a future mutation.

Fecal implant may be the way to go with this.

>
> Just a thought.
>
> Sylvia.

On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 1:53:33 AM UTC+10, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:53:25 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >On 28-Jul-21 2:19 pm, Rick C wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:06:28 AM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >>> On 28-Jul-21 1:54 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:22:09 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >>>>> On 28-Jul-21 12:12 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:50:56 AM UTC+10, Petzl wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:53:16 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

> The current mRNA vaccines deliver a bit of messenger RNA that
> instructs some hapless muscle cells (typically in the Deltiod Muscle)
> to make the COVID19 spike protein and transport the entire spike to
> the outer cell wall, where the immune system will see it.
>
> The muscle cell also collects, chops up, and displays fragments of all
> proteins found within that cell for the immune system also to see. No
> single fragment tells the whole story - it's the whole collection of
> fragments that count.

This doesn't seem to be right. It's the spike protein the immune system is supposed to be exposed to, and the other protein fragments - if they actually show up - are just incidental noise.

> The fragments related to manufacturing the spike protein will be new
> to the immune system -

If they exist. The vaccines do encode an exact prescription for the spike protein and it should be grown as a single string of amino acids without any bits getting chopped off in the process,

> as will the spike protein itself.

>So, the immune system will kill that unfortunate muscle cell,

Will it? Cells produce lots of different proteins during their careers, and don't get killed off all that often.

> and in the process remember these strange antigens it found, and be ready when these antigens are later seen.

Vaccination is about producing a single antigen - at least for the Astra-Zeneca, Pfizer and Moderna vaccines - which happens to to be the Covid-19 spike protein.
> The DNA vaccines work much the same, except that the instructions to
> make the spike protein and insert it into the cell wall are encoded in
> DNA, which the muscle cell promptly converts to messenger RNA.

> As COVID-19 evolves into new variants, the above process still works,
> but not quite as well, but greatly reduces the intensity of disease
> due to the variant. Now, the immune system is training to the new
> variant, just as for the vaccine, but now tuned to the variant.

In reality the spike protein in the new variants still looks enough like the version of the spike protein generated by the vaccines that the antibodies react to it as if were the original. Or it has so far.

The immune system may generate it's own antibodies to some aspect of the Covid-19 virus, but the virus as whole is a bigger target and has more potential variations.

The spike protein is highly conserved because it has a specific job to do, and most mutations in it stop it doing that job and are lethal to that strain of the virus.
> This process can chain forever, so long as one does not wait so long that the evolved COVID19 is no longer affected by the immunity acquired during the last vaccination or infection.

Seems unlikely,

> This is how a population achieves enduring herd immunity.

It isn't. Herd immunity happens when enough of the population is immune that an infected victim is unlikely to run into an infectable individual while it remains infectious.
> Overly draconian lockdowns can break the chain.

Draconian lock-downs can break the chain of infection. There no such thing as an overly draconian lock-down from the point of view of getting rid of the virus.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 11:53:33 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:53:25 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >On 28-Jul-21 2:19 pm, Rick C wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:06:28 AM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >>> On 28-Jul-21 1:54 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:22:09 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >>>>> On 28-Jul-21 12:12 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:50:56 AM UTC+10, Petzl wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:53:16 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> The vaccines we have received were based on the original Covid-19 strain
> >>>>>>>> out of China. The dominant strain around the world is the Delta variant,
> >>>>>>>> so the most likely mutations that a person will encounter in the near
> >>>>>>>> term will derive from that.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Since a full vaccinated person seems to be well protected against
> >>>>>>>> serious illness from the Delta variant, exposure to it will provide the
> >>>>>>>> immune system with a heads up about something closer to a future mutation.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Just a thought.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Not a good one. If the immune system gets exposed to enough of the Delta strain, it could create new antibodies (and new killer T-cells) that were active against it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> It's not going to learn anything about future mutations.
> >>>>> The antibodies are against bits of protein, not against the sum total of
> >>>>> the virus. As a virus mutates, bits of protein change, and the
> >>>>> antibodies against those bits in the original virus will no longer work.
> >>>>> So mutations progressively render antibodies ineffective.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Expose the immune system to a more recent variant, being an ancestor of
> >>>>> some hypothetical future strain, and the immune systems gets a chance to
> >>>>> produce antibodies against the changed bits of protein. The future
> >>>>> strain will again render some antibodies ineffective, but having learned
> >>>>> from the more recent variant, the immune system will still have more
> >>>>> antibodies that still work.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tell that to the people who make vaccines against seasonal influenza..
> >>>>
> >>> Influenza has a very high mutation rate, and there are already multiple
> >>> virulent strains.
> >>>
> >>> That doesn't mean my specific suggestion about the Delta variant and its
> >>> offspring is wrong.
> >>
> >> Your suggestion doesn't have a basis in logic. If I understand what you are suggesting it is based on the idea that the variants each modify the genome a bit and that small variation causes reduced effectiveness in the vaccines which accumulate. So getting the disease from a more recent disease variant gives you a "current" resistance and therefore more immunity.
> >>
> >> That is a flawed understanding of the disease and how the vaccines work. The vaccines target separate small fragments of various proteins. Unless the mutations of the variants are in the specific genome of the targeted protein there is no direct impact on the action of the vaccine. Much more likely according to the evidence is that any change in the effectiveness of a vaccine from viral mutations simply happens because the mutation makes the virus more infective in general. It has little to nothing to do with the mutation impacting the targeted protein.
> >>
> >
> >I haven't been able to find support for the idea that the vaccines only
> >produce small fragments of the various proteins. Indeed, claims that the
> >spike protein is a toxin (not supported by evidence) have notably not be
> >countered by statements that only bits of the protein are produced anyway.
> >
> >The cellular machinery chops up the protein in due course, as it does
> >with all proteins, and fragments are exposed on the cell surface.
> >
> >On this basis, any mutations in the virus affecting the spike protein
> >will affect the effectiveness of those antibodies are were targetting
> >the part of the protein that has been changed.
> Yes, that is exactly how it works.
>
> The current mRNA vaccines deliver a bit of messenger RNA that
> instructs some hapless muscle cells (typically in the Deltiod Muscle)
> to make the COVID19 spike protein and transport the entire spike to
> the outer cell wall, where the immune system will see it.
>
> The muscle cell also collects, chops up, and displays fragments of all
> proteins found within that cell for the immune system also to see. No
> single fragment tells the whole story - it's the whole collection of
> fragments that count.
>
> The fragments related to manufacturing the spike protein will be new
> to the immune system, as will the spike protein itself. So, the
> immune system will kill that unfortunate muscle cell, and in the
> process remember these strange antigens it found, and be ready when
> these antigens are later seen.
>
> The DNA vaccines work much the same, except that the instructions to
> make the spike protein and insert it into the cell wall are encoded in
> DNA, which the muscle cell promptly converts to messenger RNA.
>
> As COVID19 evolves into new variants, the above process still works,
> but not quite as well, but greatly reduces the intensity of disease
> due to the variant. Now, the immune system is training to the new
> variant, just as for the vaccine, but now tuned to the variant.
>
> This process can chain forever, so long as one does not wait so long
> that the evolved COVID19 is no longer affected by the immunity
> acquired during the last vaccination or infection. This is how a
> population achieves enduring herd immunity.
>
> Overly draconian lockdowns can break the chain.

Immune surveillance doesn't react to "fragments." They're too small and will not induce a reaction. Quite a bit of the engineering of the vaccine went into selecting and manufacturing proteins and protein complexes that are big enough to be detected by the immune surveillance components. Nano- fragments don't cut it.
It's no big deal for the muscle cells if they start being killed off by lymphocyte attack. They are regenerative tissue. In the case of lung tissue, or heart tissue, or brain tissue, or a host of other tissue types, it is a big deal because they're non-regenerative and lost forever. Vaccines that induce a strong lymphocyte attack are highly desirable because that kind of immunity is for life. As far as antibodies go, they only need about a 20% match of their target epitope to bind with a protein. This why the vaccine induced antibodies are still effective against many of the variants, even Delta. Laboratory testing has shown mRNA vaccine induced antibodies kill off 50-80% of the Delta virus. That is a HUGE head start in warding off illness..

>
> Joe Gwinn

On 29-Jul-21 2:25 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 1:53:33 AM UTC+10, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:53:25 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 28-Jul-21 2:19 pm, Rick C wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:06:28 AM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>> On 28-Jul-21 1:54 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:22:09 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>>> On 28-Jul-21 12:12 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:50:56 AM UTC+10, Petzl wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:53:16 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> The current mRNA vaccines deliver a bit of messenger RNA that
>> instructs some hapless muscle cells (typically in the Deltiod Muscle)
>> to make the COVID19 spike protein and transport the entire spike to
>> the outer cell wall, where the immune system will see it.
>>
>> The muscle cell also collects, chops up, and displays fragments of all
>> proteins found within that cell for the immune system also to see. No
>> single fragment tells the whole story - it's the whole collection of
>> fragments that count.
>
> This doesn't seem to be right. It's the spike protein the immune system is supposed to be exposed to, and the other protein fragments - if they actually show up - are just incidental noise.
>
>> The fragments related to manufacturing the spike protein will be new
>> to the immune system -
>
> If they exist. The vaccines do encode an exact prescription for the spike protein and it should be grown as a single string of amino acids without any bits getting chopped off in the process,
>
>> as will the spike protein itself.
>
>> So, the immune system will kill that unfortunate muscle cell,
>
> Will it? Cells produce lots of different proteins during their careers, and don't get killed off all that often.

During the production of antibodies, the body eliminates any that match
antigens for the body's own proteins. I don't think the details of how
that works are fully understood yet. Indeed, sometimes it doesn't work
properly, and you end up with an auto-immune disease.

But the basic principle of operation of this part of the immune system
is that it's on the lookout for proteins that don't belong, and cells
that are producing such proteins get killed.

Sylvia.

On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:53:16 +1000, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
wrote:

>The vaccines we have received were based on the original Covid-19 strain
>out of China. The dominant strain around the world is the Delta variant,
>so the most likely mutations that a person will encounter in the near
>term will derive from that.
>
>Since a full vaccinated person seems to be well protected against
>serious illness from the Delta variant, exposure to it will provide the
>immune system with a heads up about something closer to a future mutation.
>
>Just a thought.
>
>Sylvia.

Yes, it is an OK thought and may have some merit...

But so far, there is no need to do that. The mRNA vaccines work just
fine against variants so far.

boB

On 29/07/2021 2:00 pm, boB wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:53:16 +1000, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> The vaccines we have received were based on the original Covid-19 strain
>> out of China. The dominant strain around the world is the Delta variant,
>> so the most likely mutations that a person will encounter in the near
>> term will derive from that.
>>
>> Since a full vaccinated person seems to be well protected against
>> serious illness from the Delta variant, exposure to it will provide the
>> immune system with a heads up about something closer to a future mutation.
>>
>> Just a thought.
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> Yes, it is an OK thought and may have some merit...
>
> But so far, there is no need to do that. The mRNA vaccines work just
> fine against variants so far.

As does AZ

On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:53:33 AM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 28-Jul-21 2:19 pm, Rick C wrote:
> >
> > Your suggestion doesn't have a basis in logic. If I understand what you are suggesting it is based on the idea that the variants each modify the genome a bit and that small variation causes reduced effectiveness in the vaccines which accumulate. So getting the disease from a more recent disease variant gives you a "current" resistance and therefore more immunity.
> >
> > That is a flawed understanding of the disease and how the vaccines work.. The vaccines target separate small fragments of various proteins. Unless the mutations of the variants are in the specific genome of the targeted protein there is no direct impact on the action of the vaccine. Much more likely according to the evidence is that any change in the effectiveness of a vaccine from viral mutations simply happens because the mutation makes the virus more infective in general. It has little to nothing to do with the mutation impacting the targeted protein.
> >
> I haven't been able to find support for the idea that the vaccines only
> produce small fragments of the various proteins. Indeed, claims that the
> spike protein is a toxin (not supported by evidence) have notably not be
> countered by statements that only bits of the protein are produced anyway..

Statements where exactly??? If you are looking for a detailed analysis of the functioning of the vaccine in social media, you are looking in the wrong places. Bill is likely the authority here, so ask him directly.

> The cellular machinery chops up the protein in due course, as it does
> with all proteins, and fragments are exposed on the cell surface.
>
> On this basis, any mutations in the virus affecting the spike protein
> will affect the effectiveness of those antibodies are were targetting
> the part of the protein that has been changed.

The portion of the spike protein that are acted on by the vaccine are directly involved in the operation of the spike attaching to the cell. If that changes in a significant way, it is very likely the result could not infect a cell. Notice the wording, "very likely", not "certainly" or "absolutely". That's my big concern, that there will be such a mutation that invalidates the vaccine. Thus my interest in getting rid of this disease around the world.

I remember a simulation someone ran over a year ago that compared three courses of action, do nothing, maximum efforts to prevent the spread and a middle ground. While the result for doing nothing may have been flawed as it doesn't take into account evolution in the infection possibly making it more dangerous - this approach at least had the benefit of being over quickly even with the terrible result of killing many, many people. The maximum efforts to limit the spread (I'm picturing China here) resulted in a short duration of wide infection and the shortest period of impact to the economy. The worse possible scenario was to utilize limited efforts to contain the disease which caused the disease to both have high impact on the population and spread it over the maximum time. An additional impact that was not anticipated in this simulation was the widespread mutations that allow the virus to become much more dangerous. So we have had a perfect storm of allowing this disease to wash over us while we suffer the economic impacts and see the virus mutate into new, more infectious varieties.

In the US this is thanks mostly to the COVID and vaccine denialists.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 1:47:34 AM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
> Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote
> > Petzl wrote
> >> Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote
>
> >>> The vaccines we have received were based on the original Covid-19 strain
> >>> out of China. The dominant strain around the world is the Delta variant,
> >>> so the most likely mutations that a person will encounter in the near
> >>> term will derive from that.
>
> >>> Since a full vaccinated person seems to be well protected against
> >>> serious illness from the Delta variant, exposure to it will provide the
> >>> immune system with a heads up about something closer to a future
> >>> mutation.
>
> >>> Just a thought.
> >> The mass vaccination hubs have long queues, so seems most are trying to
> >> do the right thing, there is a percentage point of persons having been
> >> vaccinated where this virus will burn out, become extinct.
>
> > That hasn't happened to influenza.
> Because it mutates a lot faster. But it has with
> almost everything else we vaccinate against.
> > With a concerted effort to vaccinate the entire world against covid-19, we
> > might achieve extinction.
> And it might end up not important anymore like the spanish flu did too.

You mean after it has killed many millions more?

> > Otherwise, we'll constantly be dealing with new variants.
> You don’t know that either.

Your method of argument seems to be a matter of saying, "You're wrong!" without any basis. It is pretty much inevitable the virus will continue to mutate in significant ways as long as the infection rates are high. If we manage to achieve low rates globally we might see no further significant mutations.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 8:34:08 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 1:47:34 AM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
> > Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote
> > > Petzl wrote
> > >> Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote
> >
> > >>> The vaccines we have received were based on the original Covid-19 strain
> > >>> out of China. The dominant strain around the world is the Delta variant,
> > >>> so the most likely mutations that a person will encounter in the near
> > >>> term will derive from that.
> >
> > >>> Since a full vaccinated person seems to be well protected against
> > >>> serious illness from the Delta variant, exposure to it will provide the
> > >>> immune system with a heads up about something closer to a future
> > >>> mutation.
> >
> > >>> Just a thought.
> > >> The mass vaccination hubs have long queues, so seems most are trying to
> > >> do the right thing, there is a percentage point of persons having been
> > >> vaccinated where this virus will burn out, become extinct.
> >
> > > That hasn't happened to influenza.
> > Because it mutates a lot faster. But it has with
> > almost everything else we vaccinate against.
> > > With a concerted effort to vaccinate the entire world against covid-19, we
> > > might achieve extinction.
> > And it might end up not important anymore like the spanish flu did too.
> You mean after it has killed many millions more?
> > > Otherwise, we'll constantly be dealing with new variants.
> > You don’t know that either.
> Your method of argument seems to be a matter of saying, "You're wrong!" without any basis. It is pretty much inevitable the virus will continue to mutate in significant ways as long as the infection rates are high. If we manage to achieve low rates globally we might see no further significant mutations.
>

There are seven billion people on planet Earth. Nowhere near seven billion people will be vaccinated , even once. Now it is starting to look like the "vaccine" does not even hold up for 8 months. So the grand master plan is now requiring that everyone on planet earth all be vaccinated with a (hopefully effective) concoction made by 6 different companies and all administered to EVERYONE within 6 months. This is a total Cluster-F of an idea.

Either the "vaccine" protects each individual as a standalone treatment or the whole thing is a convoluted Cluster-F of an idea.
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 8:40:58 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 8:34:08 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 1:47:34 AM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
> > > Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote
> > > > Petzl wrote
> > > >> Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote
> > >
> > > >>> The vaccines we have received were based on the original Covid-19 strain
> > > >>> out of China. The dominant strain around the world is the Delta variant,
> > > >>> so the most likely mutations that a person will encounter in the near
> > > >>> term will derive from that.
> > >
> > > >>> Since a full vaccinated person seems to be well protected against
> > > >>> serious illness from the Delta variant, exposure to it will provide the
> > > >>> immune system with a heads up about something closer to a future
> > > >>> mutation.
> > >
> > > >>> Just a thought.
> > > >> The mass vaccination hubs have long queues, so seems most are trying to
> > > >> do the right thing, there is a percentage point of persons having been
> > > >> vaccinated where this virus will burn out, become extinct.
> > >
> > > > That hasn't happened to influenza.
> > > Because it mutates a lot faster. But it has with
> > > almost everything else we vaccinate against.
> > > > With a concerted effort to vaccinate the entire world against covid-19, we
> > > > might achieve extinction.
> > > And it might end up not important anymore like the spanish flu did too.
> > You mean after it has killed many millions more?
> > > > Otherwise, we'll constantly be dealing with new variants.
> > > You don’t know that either.
> > Your method of argument seems to be a matter of saying, "You're wrong!" without any basis. It is pretty much inevitable the virus will continue to mutate in significant ways as long as the infection rates are high. If we manage to achieve low rates globally we might see no further significant mutations.
> >
> There are seven billion people on planet Earth. Nowhere near seven billion people will be vaccinated , even once. Now it is starting to look like the "vaccine" does not even hold up for 8 months. So the grand master plan is now requiring that everyone on planet earth all be vaccinated with a (hopefully effective) concoction made by 6 different companies and all administered to EVERYONE within 6 months. This is a total Cluster-F of an idea.
>
> Either the "vaccine" protects each individual as a standalone treatment or the whole thing is a convoluted Cluster-F of an idea.
> > --
> >
> > Rick C.
> >
> > -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> > -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Hey everyone, I have this new idea for a vaccine! I will administer a shot to you and it will work as long as everyone else who could have given you the disease does not catch the disease. In other words my vaccine works as long as the disease does not exist! Brilliant

On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 11:04:47 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 11:53:33 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:53:25 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 28-Jul-21 2:19 pm, Rick C wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:06:28 AM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> >>> On 28-Jul-21 1:54 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>> >>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:22:09 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> >>>>> On 28-Jul-21 12:12 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:50:56 AM UTC+10, Petzl wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:53:16 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> The vaccines we have received were based on the original Covid-19 strain
>> >>>>>>>> out of China. The dominant strain around the world is the Delta variant,
>> >>>>>>>> so the most likely mutations that a person will encounter in the near
>> >>>>>>>> term will derive from that.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Since a full vaccinated person seems to be well protected against
>> >>>>>>>> serious illness from the Delta variant, exposure to it will provide the
>> >>>>>>>> immune system with a heads up about something closer to a future mutation.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Just a thought.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Not a good one. If the immune system gets exposed to enough of the Delta strain, it could create new antibodies (and new killer T-cells) that were active against it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> It's not going to learn anything about future mutations.
>> >>>>> The antibodies are against bits of protein, not against the sum total of
>> >>>>> the virus. As a virus mutates, bits of protein change, and the
>> >>>>> antibodies against those bits in the original virus will no longer work.
>> >>>>> So mutations progressively render antibodies ineffective.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Expose the immune system to a more recent variant, being an ancestor of
>> >>>>> some hypothetical future strain, and the immune systems gets a chance to
>> >>>>> produce antibodies against the changed bits of protein. The future
>> >>>>> strain will again render some antibodies ineffective, but having learned
>> >>>>> from the more recent variant, the immune system will still have more
>> >>>>> antibodies that still work.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Tell that to the people who make vaccines against seasonal influenza.
>> >>>>
>> >>> Influenza has a very high mutation rate, and there are already multiple
>> >>> virulent strains.
>> >>>
>> >>> That doesn't mean my specific suggestion about the Delta variant and its
>> >>> offspring is wrong.
>> >>
>> >> Your suggestion doesn't have a basis in logic. If I understand what you are suggesting it is based on the idea that the variants each modify the genome a bit and that small variation causes reduced effectiveness in the vaccines which accumulate. So getting the disease from a more recent disease variant gives you a "current" resistance and therefore more immunity.
>> >>
>> >> That is a flawed understanding of the disease and how the vaccines work. The vaccines target separate small fragments of various proteins. Unless the mutations of the variants are in the specific genome of the targeted protein there is no direct impact on the action of the vaccine. Much more likely according to the evidence is that any change in the effectiveness of a vaccine from viral mutations simply happens because the mutation makes the virus more infective in general. It has little to nothing to do with the mutation impacting the targeted protein.
>> >>
>> >
>> >I haven't been able to find support for the idea that the vaccines only
>> >produce small fragments of the various proteins. Indeed, claims that the
>> >spike protein is a toxin (not supported by evidence) have notably not be
>> >countered by statements that only bits of the protein are produced anyway.
>> >
>> >The cellular machinery chops up the protein in due course, as it does
>> >with all proteins, and fragments are exposed on the cell surface.
>> >
>> >On this basis, any mutations in the virus affecting the spike protein
>> >will affect the effectiveness of those antibodies are were targetting
>> >the part of the protein that has been changed.
>> Yes, that is exactly how it works.
>>
>> The current mRNA vaccines deliver a bit of messenger RNA that
>> instructs some hapless muscle cells (typically in the Deltiod Muscle)
>> to make the COVID19 spike protein and transport the entire spike to
>> the outer cell wall, where the immune system will see it.
>>
>> The muscle cell also collects, chops up, and displays fragments of all
>> proteins found within that cell for the immune system also to see. No
>> single fragment tells the whole story - it's the whole collection of
>> fragments that count.
>>
>> The fragments related to manufacturing the spike protein will be new
>> to the immune system, as will the spike protein itself. So, the
>> immune system will kill that unfortunate muscle cell, and in the
>> process remember these strange antigens it found, and be ready when
>> these antigens are later seen.
>>
>> The DNA vaccines work much the same, except that the instructions to
>> make the spike protein and insert it into the cell wall are encoded in
>> DNA, which the muscle cell promptly converts to messenger RNA.
>>
>> As COVID19 evolves into new variants, the above process still works,
>> but not quite as well, but greatly reduces the intensity of disease
>> due to the variant. Now, the immune system is training to the new
>> variant, just as for the vaccine, but now tuned to the variant.
>>
>> This process can chain forever, so long as one does not wait so long
>> that the evolved COVID19 is no longer affected by the immunity
>> acquired during the last vaccination or infection. This is how a
>> population achieves enduring herd immunity.
>>
>> Overly draconian lockdowns can break the chain.
>
>Immune surveillance doesn't react to "fragments." They're too small and will not induce a reaction.

Sure it does, and it's a major part of the immune system.

It's intended to detect parasites internal to cells - some kinds of
bacteria do this, not just viruses. Also, cancer causes generation of
strange proteins, and these too are detected, leading to the afflicted
cell being summarily killed.

..<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigen-presenting_cell>

Proteins are strings of amino acid residues. There are twenty
naturally occurring amino acids, identified with a single letter.

..<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_primary_structure>

Fragments are usually about 20 amino acid units long. There are
20^20 = 10^26 possible 20-letter sequences, so recognition is usually
precise,despite various practicalities.

Joe Gwinn

On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:40:58 PM UTC+10, Brent Locher wrote:
> On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 8:34:08 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 1:47:34 AM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
> > > Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote
> > > > Petzl wrote
> > > >> Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote

> There are seven billion people on planet Earth. Nowhere near seven billion people will be vaccinated , even once.

We managed it with smallpox, and we should be able to manage it with Covid-19. We've got a whole lot better vaccine technology than we had with small-pox, which will help.

> Now it is starting to look like the "vaccine" does not even hold up for 8 months.

The antibody level starts dropping at the this point. The killer-T cells stick around, but the test for them isn't as easy so it doesn't get done all that often.

> So the grand master plan is now requiring that everyone on planet earth all be vaccinated with a (hopefully effective) concoction made by 6 different companies and all administered to EVERYONE within 6 months. This is a total Cluster-F of an idea.

That may be your master plan. It's as silly as all the other misconceptions you post.
> Either the "vaccine" protects each individual as a standalone treatment or the whole thing is a convoluted Cluster-F of an idea.

You do post a lot of absurd misconceptions.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:12:47 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 11:04:47 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 11:53:33 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> >> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:53:25 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 28-Jul-21 2:19 pm, Rick C wrote:
> >> >> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:06:28 AM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >> >>> On 28-Jul-21 1:54 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >> >>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:22:09 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >> >>>>> On 28-Jul-21 12:12 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >> >>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:50:56 AM UTC+10, Petzl wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:53:16 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> The vaccines we have received were based on the original Covid-19 strain
> >> >>>>>>>> out of China. The dominant strain around the world is the Delta variant,
> >> >>>>>>>> so the most likely mutations that a person will encounter in the near
> >> >>>>>>>> term will derive from that.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Since a full vaccinated person seems to be well protected against
> >> >>>>>>>> serious illness from the Delta variant, exposure to it will provide the
> >> >>>>>>>> immune system with a heads up about something closer to a future mutation.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Just a thought.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Not a good one. If the immune system gets exposed to enough of the Delta strain, it could create new antibodies (and new killer T-cells) that were active against it.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> It's not going to learn anything about future mutations.
> >> >>>>> The antibodies are against bits of protein, not against the sum total of
> >> >>>>> the virus. As a virus mutates, bits of protein change, and the
> >> >>>>> antibodies against those bits in the original virus will no longer work.
> >> >>>>> So mutations progressively render antibodies ineffective.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Expose the immune system to a more recent variant, being an ancestor of
> >> >>>>> some hypothetical future strain, and the immune systems gets a chance to
> >> >>>>> produce antibodies against the changed bits of protein. The future
> >> >>>>> strain will again render some antibodies ineffective, but having learned
> >> >>>>> from the more recent variant, the immune system will still have more
> >> >>>>> antibodies that still work.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Tell that to the people who make vaccines against seasonal influenza.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> Influenza has a very high mutation rate, and there are already multiple
> >> >>> virulent strains.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> That doesn't mean my specific suggestion about the Delta variant and its
> >> >>> offspring is wrong.
> >> >>
> >> >> Your suggestion doesn't have a basis in logic. If I understand what you are suggesting it is based on the idea that the variants each modify the genome a bit and that small variation causes reduced effectiveness in the vaccines which accumulate. So getting the disease from a more recent disease variant gives you a "current" resistance and therefore more immunity.
> >> >>
> >> >> That is a flawed understanding of the disease and how the vaccines work. The vaccines target separate small fragments of various proteins. Unless the mutations of the variants are in the specific genome of the targeted protein there is no direct impact on the action of the vaccine. Much more likely according to the evidence is that any change in the effectiveness of a vaccine from viral mutations simply happens because the mutation makes the virus more infective in general. It has little to nothing to do with the mutation impacting the targeted protein.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >I haven't been able to find support for the idea that the vaccines only
> >> >produce small fragments of the various proteins. Indeed, claims that the
> >> >spike protein is a toxin (not supported by evidence) have notably not be
> >> >countered by statements that only bits of the protein are produced anyway.
> >> >
> >> >The cellular machinery chops up the protein in due course, as it does
> >> >with all proteins, and fragments are exposed on the cell surface.
> >> >
> >> >On this basis, any mutations in the virus affecting the spike protein
> >> >will affect the effectiveness of those antibodies are were targetting
> >> >the part of the protein that has been changed.
> >> Yes, that is exactly how it works.
> >>
> >> The current mRNA vaccines deliver a bit of messenger RNA that
> >> instructs some hapless muscle cells (typically in the Deltiod Muscle)
> >> to make the COVID19 spike protein and transport the entire spike to
> >> the outer cell wall, where the immune system will see it.
> >>
> >> The muscle cell also collects, chops up, and displays fragments of all
> >> proteins found within that cell for the immune system also to see. No
> >> single fragment tells the whole story - it's the whole collection of
> >> fragments that count.
> >>
> >> The fragments related to manufacturing the spike protein will be new
> >> to the immune system, as will the spike protein itself. So, the
> >> immune system will kill that unfortunate muscle cell, and in the
> >> process remember these strange antigens it found, and be ready when
> >> these antigens are later seen.
> >>
> >> The DNA vaccines work much the same, except that the instructions to
> >> make the spike protein and insert it into the cell wall are encoded in
> >> DNA, which the muscle cell promptly converts to messenger RNA.
> >>
> >> As COVID19 evolves into new variants, the above process still works,
> >> but not quite as well, but greatly reduces the intensity of disease
> >> due to the variant. Now, the immune system is training to the new
> >> variant, just as for the vaccine, but now tuned to the variant.
> >>
> >> This process can chain forever, so long as one does not wait so long
> >> that the evolved COVID19 is no longer affected by the immunity
> >> acquired during the last vaccination or infection. This is how a
> >> population achieves enduring herd immunity.
> >>
> >> Overly draconian lockdowns can break the chain.
> >
> >Immune surveillance doesn't react to "fragments." They're too small and will not induce a reaction.
> Sure it does, and it's a major part of the immune system.
>
> It's intended to detect parasites internal to cells - some kinds of
> bacteria do this, not just viruses. Also, cancer causes generation of
> strange proteins, and these too are detected, leading to the afflicted
> cell being summarily killed.
>
> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigen-presenting_cell>
>
>
> Proteins are strings of amino acid residues. There are twenty
> naturally occurring amino acids, identified with a single letter.
>
> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_primary_structure>
>
>
> Fragments are usually about 20 amino acid units long. There are
> 20^20 = 10^26 possible 20-letter sequences, so recognition is usually
> precise,despite various practicalities.

You're talking about something entirely different. The mRNA vaccine formulation induces the ribosome to produce a triple spike protein specifically because of the detectability issue. There's a big difference between immune reaction to a nano protein attached to something bigger versus attracting attention when it's free floating on its own.

>
>
> Joe Gwinn

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 12:12:47 AM UTC+10, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 11:04:47 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 11:53:33 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> >> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:53:25 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:
> >> >On 28-Jul-21 2:19 pm, Rick C wrote:
> >> >> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:06:28 AM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >> >>> On 28-Jul-21 1:54 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >> >>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:22:09 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >> >>>>> On 28-Jul-21 12:12 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >> >>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:50:56 AM UTC+10, Petzl wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:53:16 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

> Proteins are strings of amino acid residues.

Proteins are strings of complete amino acids. Once created, they fold up in predictable ways, and the interactions between amino acids in different parts of the string stabilise the structure. There aren't any "residues" involved.

> There are twenty naturally occurring amino acids, identified with a single letter.
>
> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_primary_structure>
>
> Fragments are usually about 20 amino acid units long.

You don't get protein fragments until the protein has been chopped up, and the average length of the fragment can be chosen.

> There are 20^20 = 10^26 possible 20-letter sequences, so recognition is usually precise,despite various practicalities.

The pcr test depends on it.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:59:22 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

>On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 12:12:47 AM UTC+10, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 11:04:47 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 11:53:33 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:53:25 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:
>> >> >On 28-Jul-21 2:19 pm, Rick C wrote:
>> >> >> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:06:28 AM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> >> >>> On 28-Jul-21 1:54 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>> >> >>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:22:09 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> >> >>>>> On 28-Jul-21 12:12 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>> >> >>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:50:56 AM UTC+10, Petzl wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:53:16 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Proteins are strings of amino acid residues.
>
>Proteins are strings of complete amino acids. Once created, they fold up in predictable ways, and the interactions between amino acids in different parts of the string stabilise the structure. There aren't any "residues" involved.

Well, they are called residues when polymerized into a protein.

"Amino acids are polymerized via peptide bonds to form a long
backbone, with the different amino acid side chains protruding along
it."

The amino acids are no longer acids, having reacted with the backbone.

>> There are twenty naturally occurring amino acids, identified with a single letter.
>>
>> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_primary_structure>
>>
>> Fragments are usually about 20 amino acid units long.
>
>You don't get protein fragments until the protein has been chopped up, and the average length of the fragment can be chosen.

The chopping up is performed within the cell. See the first URL, in
the now snipped text.

>> There are 20^20 = 10^26 possible 20-letter sequences, so recognition is usually precise,despite various practicalities.
>
>The pcr test depends on it.

Except that the PCR test operates on DNA, and not on proteins. In the
DNA, each amino acid is identified by a 3-codon triplet, so 20 codons
is equivalent to about six amino acids.

Joe Gwinn

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 2:25:31 AM UTC+10, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:59:22 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
> <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 12:12:47 AM UTC+10, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> >> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 11:04:47 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 11:53:33 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:53:25 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:
> >> >> >On 28-Jul-21 2:19 pm, Rick C wrote:
> >> >> >> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:06:28 AM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >> >> >>> On 28-Jul-21 1:54 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >> >> >>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:22:09 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >> >> >>>>> On 28-Jul-21 12:12 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >> >> >>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:50:56 AM UTC+10, Petzl wrote:
> >> >> >>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:53:16 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:
<snip>

> >You don't get protein fragments until the protein has been chopped up, and the average length of the fragment can be chosen.
> The chopping up is performed within the cell. See the first URL, in
> the now snipped text.

You might mean

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigen-presenting_cell

What's that got to do with the pcr test?

> >> There are 20^20 = 10^26 possible 20-letter sequences, so recognition is usually precise,despite various practicalities.
> >
> >The pcr test depends on it.
>
> Except that the PCR test operates on DNA, and not on proteins.

So how does it detect Covid-19 virus fragments? The Covid-19 virus is an RNA virus. There are proteins associated with it - the virus processes its genome in the infected cell to produce new virus particles and their protein shell, and a couple of proteins that presumably only keep on getting created because they distract the immune system, but the there's no DNA involved.

> In the DNA, each amino acid is identified by a 3-codon triplet, so 20 codons is equivalent to about six amino acids.

You are a font of information. This might be true but it isn't useful.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:41:54 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

>On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 2:25:31 AM UTC+10, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:59:22 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
>> <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 12:12:47 AM UTC+10, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 11:04:47 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 11:53:33 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> >> >> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:53:25 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:
>> >> >> >On 28-Jul-21 2:19 pm, Rick C wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:06:28 AM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> >> >> >>> On 28-Jul-21 1:54 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>> >> >> >>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:22:09 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>> On 28-Jul-21 12:12 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:50:56 AM UTC+10, Petzl wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:53:16 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> >You don't get protein fragments until the protein has been chopped up, and the average length of the fragment can be chosen.
>> The chopping up is performed within the cell. See the first URL, in
>> the now snipped text.
>
>You might mean
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigen-presenting_cell

Yes, that's it.

>What's that got to do with the pcr test?

Nothing. The original question was what was chopping proteins up into
20-residue fragments.

>> >> There are 20^20 = 10^26 possible 20-letter sequences, so recognition is usually precise,despite various practicalities.
>> >
>> >The pcr test depends on it.
>>
>> Except that the PCR test operates on DNA, and not on proteins.
>
>So how does it detect Covid-19 virus fragments? The Covid-19 virus is an RNA virus.

Reverse Transcriptase is used to convert RNA into the corresponding
DNA, and PCR then amplifies this DNA.

..<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_transcription_polymerase_chain_reaction>

> There are proteins associated with it - the virus processes its genome in the infected cell to produce new virus particles and their protein shell, and a couple of proteins that presumably only keep on getting created because they distract the immune system, but the there's no DNA involved.

True. It is these associated proteins that are chopped up and
presented.

>> In the DNA, each amino acid is identified by a 3-codon triplet, so 20 codons is equivalent to about six amino acids.
>
>You are a font of information. This might be true but it isn't useful.

DNA and RNA are expressed in codons, versus the amino acid residues of
proteins, so it's useful to know that the ratio is three codons to one
residue.

Joe Gwinn

On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 8:40:58 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 8:34:08 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 1:47:34 AM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
> > > Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote
> > > > Petzl wrote
> > > >> Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote
> > >
> > > >>> The vaccines we have received were based on the original Covid-19 strain
> > > >>> out of China. The dominant strain around the world is the Delta variant,
> > > >>> so the most likely mutations that a person will encounter in the near
> > > >>> term will derive from that.
> > >
> > > >>> Since a full vaccinated person seems to be well protected against
> > > >>> serious illness from the Delta variant, exposure to it will provide the
> > > >>> immune system with a heads up about something closer to a future
> > > >>> mutation.
> > >
> > > >>> Just a thought.
> > > >> The mass vaccination hubs have long queues, so seems most are trying to
> > > >> do the right thing, there is a percentage point of persons having been
> > > >> vaccinated where this virus will burn out, become extinct.
> > >
> > > > That hasn't happened to influenza.
> > > Because it mutates a lot faster. But it has with
> > > almost everything else we vaccinate against.
> > > > With a concerted effort to vaccinate the entire world against covid-19, we
> > > > might achieve extinction.
> > > And it might end up not important anymore like the spanish flu did too.
> > You mean after it has killed many millions more?
> > > > Otherwise, we'll constantly be dealing with new variants.
> > > You don’t know that either.
> > Your method of argument seems to be a matter of saying, "You're wrong!" without any basis. It is pretty much inevitable the virus will continue to mutate in significant ways as long as the infection rates are high. If we manage to achieve low rates globally we might see no further significant mutations.
> >
> There are seven billion people on planet Earth. Nowhere near seven billion people will be vaccinated , even once. Now it is starting to look like the "vaccine" does not even hold up for 8 months. So the grand master plan is now requiring that everyone on planet earth all be vaccinated with a (hopefully effective) concoction made by 6 different companies and all administered to EVERYONE within 6 months. This is a total Cluster-F of an idea.

We've already given 4 billion doses with 1.11 billion fully vaccinated, so we are headed in the right direction with the goal in sight. The 6 months number is your fiction.

> Either the "vaccine" protects each individual as a standalone treatment or the whole thing is a convoluted Cluster-F of an idea.

I have no idea what you are talking about with "a standalone treatment". The vaccine reduces the number of infections below the level the virus can usefully multiply IF we vaccinate enough people.

Why is this hard for you to understand. Every time a simple fact is presented to you, you find a way to convolute it into gibberish by adding various nonsense.

So right now we have over half the world population vaccinated with at least one does of the vaccine. Ignoring your imaginary 6 months limitation, why do you think we can't continue the process even more effectively achieving herd immunity through vaccination?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 3:35:52 AM UTC+10, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:41:54 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman <bill.....@ieee.org> wrote:
> >On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 2:25:31 AM UTC+10, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> >> On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:59:22 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman <bill.....@ieee.org> wrote:
> >> >On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 12:12:47 AM UTC+10, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 11:04:47 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 11:53:33 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> >> >> >> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:53:25 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:
> >> >> >> >On 28-Jul-21 2:19 pm, Rick C wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:06:28 AM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >> >> >> >>> On 28-Jul-21 1:54 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:22:09 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>>> On 28-Jul-21 12:12 pm, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:50:56 AM UTC+10, Petzl wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:53:16 +1000, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
> >> >You don't get protein fragments until the protein has been chopped up, and the average length of the fragment can be chosen.
> >>
> >> The chopping up is performed within the cell. See the first URL, in the now snipped text.
> >
> >You might mean
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigen-presenting_cell
>
> Yes, that's it.
>
> >What's that got to do with the pcr test?
>
> Nothing. The original question was what was chopping proteins up into 20-residue fragments.

Which isn't the issue here.

> >> >> There are 20^20 = 10^26 possible 20-letter sequences, so recognition is usually precise,despite various practicalities.
> >> >
> >> >The pcr test depends on it.
> >>
> >> Except that the PCR test operates on DNA, and not on proteins.
> >
> >So how does it detect Covid-19 virus fragments? The Covid-19 virus is an RNA virus.
>
> Reverse Transcriptase is used to convert RNA into the corresponding DNA, and PCR then amplifies this DNA.

So the PCR test does operate on RNA but only after it has been converted into the corresponding DNA
> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_transcription_polymerase_chain_reaction>
>
> > There are proteins associated with it - the virus processes its genome in the infected cell to produce new virus particles and their protein shell, and a couple of proteins that presumably only keep on getting created because they distract the immune system, but the there's no DNA involved.
>
> True. It is these associated proteins that are chopped up and presented.

Except that this doesn't to have anything to do with PCR test. You seem to squirting out irrelevant facts like an octopus squirting out ink.

> >> In the DNA, each amino acid is identified by a 3-codon triplet, so 20 codons is equivalent to about six amino acids.
> >
> >You are a font of information. This might be true but it isn't useful.
>
> DNA and RNA are expressed in codons, versus the amino acid residues of proteins, so it's useful to know that the ratio is three codons to one residue.

It might be useful in some other discussion, but here it just one more of your smoke-screens.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney