John Larkin wrote:
================
>
> We just give our customers repair parts and schematics, if they want
> to fix something themselves. That seems to make them happy.
>

** I knew someone who worked for one of Australia's commercial TV networks.
They game played like this.

1. Figure out what new piece of equipment is needed.

2. Place a firm order and wait for delivery.

3. Make it a condition of purchase that full schematics plus a life time supply of essential spares be provided with the item.

4. Non payment until 3 is complied with.

...... Phil

On 8/4/2021 11:38 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <seejes$9qp$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
> says...
>>
>> And, where do you draw the line on "spares" and continuing support?
>> E.g., if I spend a few kilobucks on a piece of software, shouldn't
>> I be *entitled* to some level of support even after the manufacturer
>> (publisher) has "moved on"? Alternatively, should they be required
>> to locate another firm to pick up that role? Or, disclose their
>> source code allowing "fair use" for those of us who are capable of
>> "repairing" it?
>>
>>
>
> Gates solved the software problem. When he started placing on the
> package words to the effect that you buy it at your own risk. It is
> licensed and not owned by the buyer.

And, the warranty is for the *media*, not its contents! I.e.,
if this disc is unreadable, we'll get you one that isn't. But,
there's no warranty for the functionality it embodies.

The same can be true of software-driven devices; "stand behind" the
hardware and disclaim any particular suitability for purpose!

E.g., if a power supply goes out in my PC, I can get it repaired
under warranty coverage. But, if the software running on it is
crap... <shrug>

> That is different than a piece of hardware that works and then a part
> breaks. I have a friend that has a Camaro that is about 30 or so years
> old. There is a piece of plastic fuel line at the gas tank that is
> broken and there are no replacements for it unless you can find someone
> that has one put back from years ago.His broke and a repair place was
> able to get it going ,but no guarentee as it was a make shift job.

There are aftermarkets that cater to things that folks are
*willing* to pay to maintain. Even businesses that will
"make new" look-alikes or work-alikes. A neighbor just
bought new door panels for his "vintage" Cougar. To the
tune of $1,200.

Find a gasket for a 50+ year old freezer? Good luck!

legg bullshitted:
=============
>
> Replace vs repair may be cheaper for the manufacturer AND the
> customer, things being as they are.
>
** Meaningless drivel.

> Repairing seems to serve the purpose of extending the life
> of products that the mfr prefers not to support, because
> there's no profit in it.

** Ya don't say......

>
> Serviceability of a product is a point-of-sale feature,
> that either raises or lowers a products value.

** Nonsense, customers have no way of knowing that.

> I'd love to see legislated requirements for serviceability,

**That is what R to R is all about.

> Paperwork for carrying out such regulation is substantial,

** Yawnnnnnn ...

..... Phil

In article <sef3v8$ue9$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
says...
>
> There are aftermarkets that cater to things that folks are
> *willing* to pay to maintain. Even businesses that will
> "make new" look-alikes or work-alikes. A neighbor just
> bought new door panels for his "vintage" Cougar. To the
> tune of $1,200.
>
>

My friend was pissed because he has a Ford model T and said he can get
an aftermarket part for just about every thing on it. A car that ia
around 100 years old, but can not get a part for his 30 year old car.

For many common things there are lots of aftermarket parts if one wants
to pay for them. Probelm is that often the part one needs is not made in
the aftermarket.

In article <in086hF1g6tU1@mid.individual.net>,
news@analogconsultants.com says...
>
> Here is an example of the opposite: The 50's era large Braun kitchen
> mixer from my mom gave up. They furnished a complete service manual for
> it. I had to go to Cologne for another reason so figured I'd try to ask
> for the spare parts at the factory service place, fully expecting they'd
> shoo me away. On the contrary, the employee went back to a large area
> with bins, handed me the parts and wanted 1 Deutschmark and 55 Pfennigs.
> Huh? "Sir, this must be a misprint, that is way too low" ... "No, this
> was the original price when we still built these and we honor that". I
> told him they had just won a new loyal customer and after our marriage
> we bought several kitchen devices from Braun.
>
>

That is unusual. I can understand the price of the parts going up.
What pisses me is that as an ordnary person I can not go to some parts
places and ask for a part. They only sell to certified repair man or
companies. About 40 years ago I went with a man to a Mercury Boat motor
place to pick up something. A man was there needing a small part but
they would not sell him on. We bought the part and I think my friend
even added a markup to the price and sold it to him for what is the
socalled 'list price'.

torsdag den 5. august 2021 kl. 00.25.01 UTC+2 skrev palli...@gmail.com:
> legg bullshitted:
> =============
> >
> > Replace vs repair may be cheaper for the manufacturer AND the
> > customer, things being as they are.
> >
> ** Meaningless drivel.
> > Repairing seems to serve the purpose of extending the life
> > of products that the mfr prefers not to support, because
> > there's no profit in it.
> ** Ya don't say......
> >
> > Serviceability of a product is a point-of-sale feature,
> > that either raises or lowers a products value.
> ** Nonsense, customers have no way of knowing that.
> > I'd love to see legislated requirements for serviceability,
> **That is what R to R is all about.

that depends on who you ask, some will say it is perfectly fine for something
to not be serviceable because it was cheaper to use glue rather than screws.
But it is not ok to, say, ban selling an IC to anyone but Apple, so noone but
Apple can fix boards where that IC is broken. Or disable a device that had parts
replaced unless the new parts gets blessed by tools only available to authorized repair

torsdag den 5. august 2021 kl. 00.53.36 UTC+2 skrev Ralph Mowery:
> In article <sef3v8$ue9$1...@dont-email.me>, blocked...@foo.invalid
> says...
> >
> > There are aftermarkets that cater to things that folks are
> > *willing* to pay to maintain. Even businesses that will
> > "make new" look-alikes or work-alikes. A neighbor just
> > bought new door panels for his "vintage" Cougar. To the
> > tune of $1,200.
> >
> >
> My friend was pissed because he has a Ford model T and said he can get
> an aftermarket part for just about every thing on it. A car that ia
> around 100 years old, but can not get a part for his 30 year old car.
>
> For many common things there are lots of aftermarket parts if one wants
> to pay for them. Probelm is that often the part one needs is not made in
> the aftermarket.

afaiu in Germany automanufacturers are required to make spareparts available
for at least 10 years

On 8/4/2021 3:53 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <sef3v8$ue9$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
> says...
>>
>> There are aftermarkets that cater to things that folks are
>> *willing* to pay to maintain. Even businesses that will
>> "make new" look-alikes or work-alikes. A neighbor just
>> bought new door panels for his "vintage" Cougar. To the
>> tune of $1,200.
>
> My friend was pissed because he has a Ford model T and said he can get
> an aftermarket part for just about every thing on it. A car that ia
> around 100 years old, but can not get a part for his 30 year old car.

Yes. Because there is more demand (measured by dollars folks are willing
to throw at it).

How many folks want to revisit a 1975 chevelle? Or, a gremlin?

> For many common things there are lots of aftermarket parts if one wants
> to pay for them. Probelm is that often the part one needs is not made in
> the aftermarket.

That's why god invented junk yards! :>

Or, in my case, recyclers (I'm not going to pay $20 for a disk sled
if I can just PULL them out of something that is being torn down
for parts!)

Watch a few episodes of Rust Valley Restorers. Note that many of the vehicles
aren't particularly "collectible". All that matters is that you have someone
with deep enough pockets willing to pay *you*! I cringe when I see the
kind of money my friends throw after... "old stuff". And, it's even
worse knowing that they're just writing checks - they aren't even doing the
work!

"I restored my..."
"No, you paid SOMEONE ELSE to restore your..."

How much effort, that?

On 8/4/2021 3:59 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> That is unusual. I can understand the price of the parts going up.
> What pisses me is that as an ordnary person I can not go to some parts
> places and ask for a part. They only sell to certified repair man or
> companies.

If you plan ahead, you can usually get around this. E.g., I
routinely purchase electrical supplies from places that only
"sell to the trade". No, I'm not a licensed electrician.
No, I don't WORK for one.

But, dropping names and "attitude" can go a long way. The counter
person (treated with respect) isn't typically out to bust your
balls. Just don't rub his face in it. Don't *act* like a newbie.

Last time I had to buy some GFCIs for our old panel, I went to
one such shop. Dropped a friend's name. Counter guy was likely
pretty sure that I wasn't in the trade. So, without trying to
be directly confrontational, asked "So, how's Mike doing?"

When I *gushed* about how much weight he'd recently lost (I'm not
even sure the counter guy knew this as Mike "had employees" to
pick up parts, *he* needn't be bothered), the conversation
moved away from a challenge of my "legitimacy" to a discussion
of Mike's "personal habits" and the things that he was particularly
fond of EATING!

So, I walked out with the trade price for the breakers -- and
the counter guy still smiling over the shared "fun" at Mike's
expense!

> About 40 years ago I went with a man to a Mercury Boat motor
> place to pick up something. A man was there needing a small part but
> they would not sell him on. We bought the part and I think my friend
> even added a markup to the price and sold it to him for what is the
> socalled 'list price'.

Back in school, it was common practice to fabricate companies and
mock up letterhead to submit requests for data, order parts, etc.
Of course, back then, it wasn't a simple matter of doing a web
search to verify the legitimacy of the fake company!

In article <sef3iq$s9j$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
says...
>
> Chances are, the tubes that were used in your last TV were similar to
> the ones in the NEXT TV. So, you kept a bag of them in the basement
> to guard against having to buy a replacement.
>
>

Just as the 'All American 5' radios that all used the same 5 tubes in
them. Probably a hundred different names and models of the old AM
radios.

One of the Good old days of around the 1960' was the tube testers in
many stores with the new tubes under them. Free for anyone to walk in
and use.

In article <21bb7571-5003-467c-bf63-1e5e9cab0290n@googlegroups.com>,
langwadt@fonz.dk says...
> that depends on who you ask, some will say it is perfectly fine for something
> to not be serviceable because it was cheaper to use glue rather than screws.
> But it is not ok to, say, ban selling an IC to anyone but Apple, so noone but
> Apple can fix boards where that IC is broken. Or disable a device that had parts
> replaced unless the new parts gets blessed by tools only available to authorized repair
>
>
>

I believe the name is Louis Rossman that is on Youtube that complains
about how Apple does for the repairs. Most of the time you take
anything into the Apple repair place you loose all your data.

On 8/4/2021 4:33 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <sef3iq$s9j$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
> says...
>>
>> Chances are, the tubes that were used in your last TV were similar to
>> the ones in the NEXT TV. So, you kept a bag of them in the basement
>> to guard against having to buy a replacement.
>
> Just as the 'All American 5' radios that all used the same 5 tubes in
> them. Probably a hundred different names and models of the old AM
> radios.
>
> One of the Good old days of around the 1960' was the tube testers in
> many stores with the new tubes under them. Free for anyone to walk in
> and use.

Yup. "fixing a TV (or radio)" boiled down to:
- pull all tubes
- place in a brown paper bag
- walk to local drug store
- test each tube (looking up "bogo-settings" for the tester on a
large scrolling chart)
- buy the tube(s) that failed
- walk back home
- reinstall tubes

And NEVER tell anyone that you can do this as they will expect
YOU to do it *for* them (despite the simplicity!)

Ralph Mowery wrote:
================
>
> > that depends on who you ask, some will say it is perfectly fine for something
> > to not be serviceable because it was cheaper to use glue rather than screws.
> > But it is not ok to, say, ban selling an IC to anyone but Apple, so noone but
> > Apple can fix boards where that IC is broken. Or disable a device that had parts
> > replaced unless the new parts gets blessed by tools only available to authorized repair
> >
> >
> I believe the name is Louis Rossman that is on Youtube that complains
> about how Apple does for the repairs. Most of the time you take
> anything into the Apple repair place you loose all your data.

** Having watched many of Mr Rossman's vids it is clear that Apple uses their so called "repair service" for three purposes.

1. To turn a handsome profit.

2. To sell new products and prevent the return of older versions to the marketplace.

3. Keep all others out of the game.

This unethical practice is precisely what R to R is trying to stop.

..... Phil

On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 00:12:22 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
wrote:

>Am 05.08.21 um 00:07 schrieb Gerhard Hoffmann:
>> Am 04.08.21 um 02:55 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>>> On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 22:02:14 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am 03.08.21 um 21:49 schrieb Don Y:
>>>>
>>>>> What's to stop a manufacturer from making that ASIC available at
>>>>> a price HIGHER than that of the entire product?]
>>>
>>>> HP came quite close to that for a steel axle with some rubber
>>>> on it after the fusing station of my HP LJ6-MP.
>>>
>>> Yep.  This roller?
>>> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/121012448507>
>>> About $20 plus tax.
>>
>> No, it was simpler. Just a 6mm steel rod with some rubber on it.
>> The rubber proved not to be temperature resistant.
>> I fixed it some for some time with 3 layers of thermo shrink hose.
>>
>> Gerhard

>Now that I think about it you could not get the rod without an entire
>fusing station.

Partly true. HP only sells assemblies, such as the fuser roller
assembly. For your HP LaserJet 6MP for 230VAC would be
RG5-4111-000CN. If you want refurbished fuser assemblies, or parts,
one must get it from a 3rd party vendor. For example:
<https://www.partshere.com/online/detail.asp?partno=RG5-4111-000CN>
Genuine HP fuser assembly for $152, a cloned version for $130, or a
refurbished version for $99. Or, you can get various parts and pieces
on eBay and elsewhere:
<https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=hp+laserjet+6mp+fuser>
(Note that the mechanical parts for the 5P, 6P, and 6MP are similar).
I would usually buy the parts and rebuild the fuser assembly myself.
For example:
<https://www.partsmart-corp.com/printer-parts/model/laserjet-6p>
<https://www.laserprinterkits.com/HP_Laserjet_6P_6MP_Deluxe_Fuser_Repair_Rebuild_Kit_p/hp_6p_fuser_kit.htm>
Unfortunately, my favorite parts vendor has gone out of business and I
haven't found a need for a replacement. Also, when I closed my
office, I gave away my rather large collection of old HP laser printer
parts.

If you're unable to find a replacement roller, try high temperature
silicon tubing over a 6mm steel rod.
<https://www.amazon.com/s?k=silicon+tubing+8mm+id>
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:59:01 -0400) it happened Ralph Mowery
<rmowery42@charter.net> wrote in
<MPG.3b74e5c4899908d298992c@news.eternal-september.org>:

>In article <in086hF1g6tU1@mid.individual.net>,
>news@analogconsultants.com says...
>>
>> Here is an example of the opposite: The 50's era large Braun kitchen
>> mixer from my mom gave up. They furnished a complete service manual for
>> it. I had to go to Cologne for another reason so figured I'd try to ask
>> for the spare parts at the factory service place, fully expecting they'd
>> shoo me away. On the contrary, the employee went back to a large area
>> with bins, handed me the parts and wanted 1 Deutschmark and 55 Pfennigs.
>> Huh? "Sir, this must be a misprint, that is way too low" ... "No, this
>> was the original price when we still built these and we honor that". I
>> told him they had just won a new loyal customer and after our marriage
>> we bought several kitchen devices from Braun.
>>
>>
>
>That is unusual. I can understand the price of the parts going up.
>What pisses me is that as an ordnary person I can not go to some parts
>places and ask for a part. They only sell to certified repair man or
>companies. About 40 years ago I went with a man to a Mercury Boat motor
>place to pick up something. A man was there needing a small part but
>they would not sell him on. We bought the part and I think my friend
>even added a markup to the price and sold it to him for what is the
>socalled 'list price'.

That was the case here few years ago, now things have changed and I can get
parts for say a washing machine or whatever online.
Even the handle of my fridge that broke I found online in minutes from a local shop.
The chips for my dryer from China :-)
Service manuals are often available at some cost online too,

On a sunny day (Wed, 04 Aug 2021 12:45:31 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
<oerlggpavjq8gd42ujj3ugfbsrmpo7pm1v@4ax.com>:

>We just give our customers repair parts and schematics, if they want
>to fix something themselves. That seems to make them happy.

Once worked for a company that build space stuff.
We got a call from ESA about some communication equipment that stopped working, was urgent they were testing a spacecraft, launch window..

Went there, 10 minutes to locate a defective capacitor.
So I said: this cap 10nF 100V we have this, can replace it now.
Oh No, this needs to be space compatible, whole thing had to be.. would need to go through the whole administration process,
Was ground equipment you know.
Sigh

And you wonder why Webb is not flying?

.....

On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Aug 2021 16:01:25 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
<21bb7571-5003-467c-bf63-1e5e9cab0290n@googlegroups.com>:

>torsdag den 5. august 2021 kl. 00.25.01 UTC+2 skrev palli...@gmail.com:
>> legg bullshitted:
>> =============
>> >
>> > Replace vs repair may be cheaper for the manufacturer AND the
>> > customer, things being as they are.
>> >
>> ** Meaningless drivel.
>> > Repairing seems to serve the purpose of extending the life
>> > of products that the mfr prefers not to support, because
>> > there's no profit in it.
>> ** Ya don't say......
>> >
>> > Serviceability of a product is a point-of-sale feature,
>> > that either raises or lowers a products value.
>> ** Nonsense, customers have no way of knowing that.
>> > I'd love to see legislated requirements for serviceability,
>> **That is what R to R is all about.
>
>that depends on who you ask, some will say it is perfectly fine for something
>to not be serviceable because it was cheaper to use glue rather than screws.
>But it is not ok to, say, ban selling an IC to anyone but Apple, so noone but
>Apple can fix boards where that IC is broken. Or disable a device that had parts
>replaced unless the new parts gets blessed by tools only available to authorized repair

Serviceability .. for example my coffee grinder has screws that turn only one way
(malformed heads) so opening to service the motor for example can only be done by drilling out those screws.
Clearly done to prevent people opening it.
I would like to see a law forcing them to use normal screws.

On 2021-08-05 00:12, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
> Am 05.08.21 um 00:07 schrieb Gerhard Hoffmann:
>> Am 04.08.21 um 02:55 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>>> On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 22:02:14 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am 03.08.21 um 21:49 schrieb Don Y:
>>>>
>>>>> What's to stop a manufacturer from making that ASIC available at
>>>>> a price HIGHER than that of the entire product?]
>>>
>>>> HP came quite close to that for a steel axle with some rubber
>>>> on it after the fusing station of my HP LJ6-MP.
>>>
>>> Yep. This roller?
>>> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/121012448507>
>>> About $20 plus tax.
>>
>> No, it was simpler. Just a 6mm steel rod with some rubber on it.
>> The rubber proved not to be temperature resistant.
>> I fixed it some for some time with 3 layers of thermo shrink hose.
>>
>> Gerhard
>>
> Now that I think about it you could not get the rod without an entire
> fusing station.

Grin. When I wanted to fix a washing machine with a broken
clock motor in France (this was ~1980), I could only get the
complete program switch assembly. For the same model in the
Netherlands, they would sell me just the *coil* of the clock
motor.

Jeroen Belleman

On 8/5/2021 2:36 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 2021-08-05 00:12, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

>> Now that I think about it you could not get the rod without an entire
>> fusing station.
>
> Grin. When I wanted to fix a washing machine with a broken
> clock motor in France (this was ~1980), I could only get the
> complete program switch assembly. For the same model in the
> Netherlands, they would sell me just the *coil* of the clock
> motor.

The more parts the manufacturer has to keep around (as spares),
the greater his "cost of inventory". If a part is no longer used
to produce a product, then there is some risk that the spares
inventory may never get sold off. Remember, legislation will likely
specify a *minimum* time that you must make spares available;
I doubt "we underestimated the post-production demand and ran out"
would be a valid defense: "make more!" (or, assume every sold
unit will need a complete replacement set?)

This effectively puts pressure on prolonging the use of *existing*
parts -- which implies reduced innovation.

I suspect the practical result will be that manufacturers will have
to make available the same FRUs that they do to their "authorized
representatives/partners" and nothing more. This can be argued as
having minimum impact on the manufacturer and effectively
maximizing the number of "authorized partners" to include all DIYers.

The Market will then select for manufacturers that offer "enough"
support for the needs of its customers.

There will likely be limitations on FRUs that have safety consequences
to "untrained" customers (I wonder if a car owner can purchase his own
replacement airbags, given that they can detonate from static charge,
etc.).

I know I can't service my own air conditioner as I need to be licensed
in the proper reclamation and disposal of "old" refrigerant, etc.

There will likely be some "relief" for customers against vendors
who have artificially "locked" their designs. E.g., I know a firm
that sells distilled water in "chipped" bottles -- claiming that it
is done to ensure the quality of the "reagents" (ha!) used in its
process. But, given that hospitals are the typical customers,
it's hard to assume that a hospital can't have distilled water
"on tap"!

This may disrupt some business models where the equipment is
underpriced with the goal of recovering costs from perpetual
"supplies purchases".

[I designed a device that cost ~$250 to build; was "priced" at
~$6K -- and GIVEN AWAY to customers in the expectation that
they would purchase "supplies" for it. In my case, the
supplies were largely commodity items so the company
relied on their reputation to earn those supplies sales]

Y Does Don Write So Much Shite ?
==========================
>
>
> The more parts the manufacturer has to keep around (as spares),
> the greater his "cost of inventory". If a part is no longer used
> to produce a product, then there is some risk that the spares
> inventory may never get sold off. Remember, legislation will likely
> specify a *minimum* time that you must make spares available;

** That is ALREADY in govt legislation around the civilised world.

Been like that for many decades too.

Question:

What does it take to shut up a fucking idiot like ?

...... Phil

In article <seg6kh$113m$1@gioia.aioe.org>, pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com
says...
>
> Once worked for a company that build space stuff.
> We got a call from ESA about some communication equipment that stopped working, was urgent they were testing a spacecraft, launch window..
>
> Went there, 10 minutes to locate a defective capacitor.
> So I said: this cap 10nF 100V we have this, can replace it now.
> Oh No, this needs to be space compatible, whole thing had to be.. would need to go through the whole administration process,
> Was ground equipment you know.
> Sigh
>
> And you wonder why Webb is not flying?
>
> ....
>
>

Sounds about like a story from about 20 years ago. The military needed
a diode for a radar unit. The diode is a common one and can be found
almost everywhere. Even the local Radio Shack store had them in stock.

However the diode had to be 'certified'. There were none in stock in
any of the military supply parts. Call to the maker and they did not
have any. The diode company made one for them. However they could not
make just one and had to make many. Cost several thousand or more
dollars just to get that 10 Cent part.

In article <seg7fu$1eg0$1@gioia.aioe.org>, pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com
says...
>
> Serviceability .. for example my coffee grinder has screws that turn only one way
> (malformed heads) so opening to service the motor for example can only be done by drilling out those screws.
> Clearly done to prevent people opening it.
> I would like to see a law forcing them to use normal screws.
>
>
>

They may have done that to prevent people from opening it up due to law
suits. Some fool jury will award a lot of money to some fool that
opened it up and got injured.

On 8/5/2021 6:47 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <seg7fu$1eg0$1@gioia.aioe.org>, pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com
> says...
>>
>> Serviceability .. for example my coffee grinder has screws that turn only one way
>> (malformed heads) so opening to service the motor for example can only be done by drilling out those screws.
>> Clearly done to prevent people opening it.
>> I would like to see a law forcing them to use normal screws.
>
> They may have done that to prevent people from opening it up due to law
> suits. Some fool jury will award a lot of money to some fool that
> opened it up and got injured.

One can make that argument.

But, one can also see legislation that absolves the original
manufacturer from liability in cases where the device has
been tampered with -- in the presence of a label informing
"no user serviceable parts inside"

These measures only *deter* folks from doing something that they
may be determined to do, regardless. Just like locks on doors
deter folks from entering unless they REALLY are intent on doing so!
(and facing the consequences of their actions)

The question then becomes, do you (the manufacturer) want to
have to incur the cost of litigation to PROVE the claimant
put himself in jeopardy, despite your WARNING against?
("If you didn't want me to gain access to the internals,
why didn't you use an oddball fastener to which I'd likely
not have access? It's obvious that there are hundreds
of different fastening techniques available to you. Why
did you use a simple, SLOTTED screw?")

Remember, juries aren't always rational. The guy who
has suffered some significant loss (injury) can command
more sympathy than the impersonal corporation "intent on
profit"! Even if the injured party was a frigging idiot!

If you *facilitate* repair, then it can be argued that
you *assume* responsibility for making that repair process
as safe as possible (practical?).

Imagine someone failing to solder ALL the pins on a device
correctly to the foils. And, one of the foils missed
happens to be involved in implementing some safety feature.
Future user (possibly one AFTER the user who made the repair)
is injured. Who are they going to look to for damages?
Mr Jones -- the guy who owned the device before selling it
to a second-hand store who resold it to the injured party?

Or, will the original manufacturer look like an easier target
("Mr Engineer, did you consider the possibility that pin #147
of U93 might not be correctly bonded to the associated external
circuitry and, thereby, render the safety feature ineffective?
Doesn't that shortcoming in your design process hint of
negligence?" "Well, we have INSPECTORS that ensure the
product is manufactured properly. Is it our fault that the
plaintiff didn't have someone CHECK HIS WORK??")

[The US legal system is amazingly perverse!]

And, if the manufacturer ties the user to using their
facilities or components as a condition of warranty coverage,
then the manufacturer must (legally!) provide those things
free of charge (in the warranty period)!

The smarter move is to make things unrepairable (at least
by consumers). And, improve the design of the product
so that consumers aren't *wanting* to repair it at the
expected failure point (e.g., short upgrade cycles).

Should an end user (or agent hired by same) be able to
disassemble a solvent-welded, $10 "power pack" to
make repairs? What about a USB cable? Power cord?
Is *nothing* to be considered as consumable?

HP's low end inkjets went so far as to putting all of
the "value" (electronics) in a "bag" at the back of the
printer that can be removed easily and the rest of the
mechanism simply discarded as (typ unrecyclable) "just
so much plastic"!

[I would imagine depot repairs would recertify those boards
and use them for warranty repairs, etc.]

If you look through a record of the FTC's actions, it's amusing
to see how many *european* firms -- who would be obligated
to met a consumer-friendlier standard when operating in
the EU -- have no problem defying even the crudest restrictions
placed on the american market.

"Do as I say, not as I do..."

[And we won't even mention the outright frauds by folks like VW!]

On 8/5/2021 6:45 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> Sounds about like a story from about 20 years ago. The military needed
> a diode for a radar unit. The diode is a common one and can be found
> almost everywhere. Even the local Radio Shack store had them in stock.
>
> However the diode had to be 'certified'. There were none in stock in
> any of the military supply parts. Call to the maker and they did not
> have any. The diode company made one for them. However they could not
> make just one and had to make many. Cost several thousand or more
> dollars just to get that 10 Cent part.

Have you never been sold "counterfeit" parts? Or, parts that
didn't meet their stated specs?

Would you willingly forfeit your right to sue (be compensated for
your loss) if someone installed one of those in a safety device
that later victimized you? Or, would you exclaim that <someone>
shouldn't have allowed that "illegal substitution" to be made?

"Go sue Bob's Discount Repair Company, LLC -- if you can find them!"
(Hint: he's now DBA Robert's Cheap Fixit Shop, LLC :> )

On Thu, 05 Aug 2021 08:08:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Wed, 04 Aug 2021 12:45:31 -0700) it happened John Larkin
><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
><oerlggpavjq8gd42ujj3ugfbsrmpo7pm1v@4ax.com>:
>
>>We just give our customers repair parts and schematics, if they want
>>to fix something themselves. That seems to make them happy.
>
>Once worked for a company that build space stuff.
>We got a call from ESA about some communication equipment that stopped working, was urgent they were testing a spacecraft, launch window..
>
>Went there, 10 minutes to locate a defective capacitor.
>So I said: this cap 10nF 100V we have this, can replace it now.
>Oh No, this needs to be space compatible, whole thing had to be.. would need to go through the whole administration process,
>Was ground equipment you know.
>Sigh

It's often better to not ask. The semiconductor people have a "copy
exact" policy too. Don't ask.

>
>And you wonder why Webb is not flying?
>
>....

If you search for a part in Digikey, and the average costs say $3,
there will be an occasional outlier at $400. That's for the people who
absolutely have to have the exact part.

Nice scheme, change part numbers slightly and sell the old ones for
hundreds of times the price.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.