On 8/6/2021 9:00 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <sekvgc$mj4$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
> says...
>>
>> And, it's way to easy to get into the habit of letting other people
>> do *everything* for you (so, what is YOUR purpose? :> )
>
> It leaves me more time to do what I want instead of what needs to be
> done. While I can do some things ,I would take a beating than do it.
> Such as plumbing. That is something I really hate to do and will pay
> for it.

I fully understand! I'm just pointing out the other "pressure"
to avoid settling into a routine where even those "other" things
fall by the wayside.

I watch too many folks "retire" and essentially "check out" from
life. Content to watch TV and eat out. No exercise, no physical
challenges, no intellectual challenges, etc. Physical stamina
fades, vision fades (which makes vision-related activities -- even
those you *want* -- harder), coordination sufers/tremor, etc.

The idea of retirement being a series of doctor visits punctuated
by TV shows and restaurant meals is NOT something I'd want to look
forward to!

[I can't imagine working a *lifetime* just so you can "reward yourself"
with endless TV and meals prepared by others]

On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 10:35:58 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> On 8/6/2021 8:15 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> > There's a video here of a farmer discussing right to repair his farm equipment. It's about 11 1/2 minutes.
> > <https://canadafreepress.com/article-comment/farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-because-of-a-repair-ban>
> > It's been a few years since I was at the Nebraska State Fair. The special cash price of a combine sitting
> > there that day was $529,187. That was just the combine. The 12 row corn head for it was another $136,150.
> > There is a right to repair bill sitting in the legislature.
> Yeah, but how extensive is it? Does it let me repair my TV?
> Stovetop? Cell phone? Is said farmer as upset over those items as
> he is over his 6-figure investment? Is he looking for "schematics",
> source code, individual components...
>
> or just "whatever documents/parts JD makes available for *its* repairs"?
>
> [There's a world of difference!]
>
> The point of my post was to try to tease out what sort of
> language/conditions a legislature could *reasonably* be expected
> to put together; step on too many manufacturer's toes and you'll
> likely see a concerted effort to defeat it (or challenge it in
> court).

I think this is the current text of the bill. Right to repair for now is for farm equipment.
If you're interested:
<https://nebraskalegislature.gov/FloorDocs/107/PDF/Intro/LB543.pdf>
<https://legiscan.com/NE/bill/LB543/2021>

In article <sel13t$tj0$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
says...
>
> The idea of retirement being a series of doctor visits punctuated
> by TV shows and restaurant meals is NOT something I'd want to look
> forward to!
>
> [I can't imagine working a *lifetime* just so you can "reward yourself"
> with endless TV and meals prepared by others]
>
>

I have been retired for 9 years. Retired at 62. I seem to stay busy .
Hardly ever watch TV in the daytime other than news while eating
breakfast and lunch. I live on about 3 acers of land which about half
is in the woods. Spend lots of time outside in the summer playing with
my small tomato patch and a few other things if they grow and the
animals leave them alone. Something ate up all leaves on the 3 cucumber
plants I had. Trapped a skunk that was getting into the garden.

I have enough hobbies that keep me busy. Spend some time 'supervising'
others doing things for me. Such as I had a garage built. Lots of leg
work in it for me getting the permits from the county, talking with the
construction people to decide what I wanted.

As one man told me that retired about 10 years before I did, you sort of
learn to take it easy. Like when mowing the yard, you take it slow and
don't bounch yourself all over the place like when working and need to
get it done quickly. The wife and I seldom go out to eat. Before the
virus set in it was usually about once a week for supper.

I do find myself spending lots of time on the computer. Checking the
email and looking at the stock market as I like to play around with it
with about 5% of the money I have put back for retirement that most is
in the IRA.

On 8/7/2021 4:49 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 10:35:58 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
>> On 8/6/2021 8:15 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>>> There's a video here of a farmer discussing right to repair his farm equipment. It's about 11 1/2 minutes.
>>> <https://canadafreepress.com/article-comment/farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-because-of-a-repair-ban>
>>> It's been a few years since I was at the Nebraska State Fair. The special cash price of a combine sitting
>>> there that day was $529,187. That was just the combine. The 12 row corn head for it was another $136,150.
>>> There is a right to repair bill sitting in the legislature.
>> Yeah, but how extensive is it? Does it let me repair my TV?
>> Stovetop? Cell phone? Is said farmer as upset over those items as
>> he is over his 6-figure investment? Is he looking for "schematics",
>> source code, individual components...
>>
>> or just "whatever documents/parts JD makes available for *its* repairs"?

------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> [There's a world of difference!]
>>
>> The point of my post was to try to tease out what sort of
>> language/conditions a legislature could *reasonably* be expected
>> to put together; step on too many manufacturer's toes and you'll
>> likely see a concerted effort to defeat it (or challenge it in
>> court).
>
> I think this is the current text of the bill. Right to repair for now is for farm equipment.
> If you're interested:
> <https://nebraskalegislature.gov/FloorDocs/107/PDF/Intro/LB543.pdf>
> <https://legiscan.com/NE/bill/LB543/2021>

Thanks!

So, it appears to continue to allow Trade Secret and other IP protections
"as is" -- including copyrights.

Appears to treat "independent repair providers" with roughly the same
terms that it presently treats "authorized repair providers".

Expressly discounts "consumer electronic devices", wireless comm devices,
computers and motor vehicles.

Makes no limits on "fair and reasonable terms" (i.e., they can charge
"independents" what they charge "authorized providers"; no *better* terms!)
E.g., If the "software update gizmo" is sold to authorized folks for some
outrageous price, it can be sold to independents for that same
outrageous price. There's no mention of timeliness of supply (which
I would assume is a key issue for operators of such equipment!)

The authorized provider has effectively been shafted as the value of
his relationship (license?) with the OEM has just been nullified.
A provider can potentially make extra monies by keeping stock of
items that have long lead-times from the OEM and offering those
to "owners" at a premium (because they aren't affected by the terms
of the bill)

Software can't require internet access; so, be prepared for discs to
be *mailed* and designed to run on a particular OS in a computer
(or tool) owned and maintained by the servicer.

Lets the OEM decide what parts they want to "make available". And,
frees the OEM from providing parts that are no longer available *to*
the OEM (i.e., if *their* supplier no longer makes a part, then
you can't rely on the OEM to *keep* stock available for *you*!)

"The Model 127 Combine-o-matic is no longer being supported; we're
offering the Model 128, now!" (sound familiar?)

[And, I see nothing about making parts available to repair those *tools*!]

So, bottom line, independent repair providers get treated like authorized
repair providers. (If there are no authorized providers, the OEM is
treated as such -- so, sets his own internal price for the tools!)

Gee, isn't that what I had predicted, above? :>

Sure isn't going to help with blown LDOs, schematics, etc!

On 8/7/2021 6:41 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <sel13t$tj0$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
> says...
>>
>> The idea of retirement being a series of doctor visits punctuated
>> by TV shows and restaurant meals is NOT something I'd want to look
>> forward to!
>>
>> [I can't imagine working a *lifetime* just so you can "reward yourself"
>> with endless TV and meals prepared by others]
>
> I have been retired for 9 years. Retired at 62. I seem to stay busy .

It's easy to stay busy -- if you *want* to! I am dismayed at the number
of retirees I meet who seem content to do nothing. Or, "busy work".

The woman across the street spends her days cleaning house (there's just
two of you living there; how the hell dirty can it get???!).

Their neighbors watch TV and are out to eat AT LEAST once every day.

Another friend *talks* about doing things -- but just dines out (with
wife and friends) and watches movies.

Another (single) friend just watches auto races and movies.

Another neighbor just shops (for boring things -- like groceries... but
every other day!); his wife never leaves home.

Another spends all day on the computer; his wife out of town (most
of the time) visiting grandkids.

Another (widow) spends her days checking her mailbox (!) -- and those
of her neighbors (to see if THEY got mail to know when she *hasn't*).

Another pulls weeds and gardens (how much tending does a small lot need?)

Another watches TV while her other half is still un-retired.

etc.

Of course, to each his own. But, none of these seem like "lifetime goals",
to me!

> Hardly ever watch TV in the daytime other than news while eating
> breakfast and lunch. I live on about 3 acers of land which about half
> is in the woods. Spend lots of time outside in the summer playing with
> my small tomato patch and a few other things if they grow and the
> animals leave them alone. Something ate up all leaves on the 3 cucumber
> plants I had. Trapped a skunk that was getting into the garden.

We have 6 citrus trees that take a fair bit of tending. And, come
harvest, a man-week or two to pick, wash, juice and bottle (just
finished the last of the December oranges, last week).

> I have enough hobbies that keep me busy. Spend some time 'supervising'
> others doing things for me. Such as I had a garage built. Lots of leg
> work in it for me getting the permits from the county, talking with the
> construction people to decide what I wanted.
>
> As one man told me that retired about 10 years before I did, you sort of
> learn to take it easy. Like when mowing the yard, you take it slow and
> don't bounch yourself all over the place like when working and need to
> get it done quickly. The wife and I seldom go out to eat. Before the
> virus set in it was usually about once a week for supper.

We rarely dine out. It's too time consuming. And, the meals that we make
at home are better for us and better tasting. Once or twice a year,
SWMBO will want BBQ ribs. They're enough of a PITA that we don't bother
making them but, rather, just go out (or, *order* during the pandemic).

> I do find myself spending lots of time on the computer. Checking the
> email and looking at the stock market as I like to play around with it
> with about 5% of the money I have put back for retirement that most is
> in the IRA.

I limit my on-line time as I spend a good deal of it interacting with
colleagues over technical matters. So, I've learned to type fast
(and not fret grammar, spelling, etc. :> ).

But, much of the rest of my time is in front of a (different) computer
so it's not really much different.

Yet, I still manage to do the yard work (no lawn to mow but still
maintenance required, esp during the rainy season -- damn weeds grow
FEET overnight!), all the household maintenance (roofing, plumbing,
electrical, etc.), most of the auto maintenance/repairs, *lots*
of "favors" for friends/colleagues/neighbors, most of the cooking,
all of the baking/sweets, shampoo the rugs, laundry, etc.

But, no vacuuming or kitchen cleanup! :> (SWMBO knows when I've
baked because I never clean up the crumbs on the counters!)

"Retirement" is still a ways off (though SWMBO claims I've been retired
for decades! :> ) and I'm still trying to decide what I'll do to
keep "engaged". The tough part is guesstimating what my physical
abilities and mental acuity will likely be; I see lots of folks who
have problems reading, fine motor skills, etc. as they get older.

But, that still leaves a lot of options!

On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 10:59:34 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:

>>In test equipment, HP seems to have invented a shrinking plastic
>>formulation, which was found in the HP 8640B signal generator:
>><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/HP8640B/index.html>

>The brass hub was likely pressed into the plastic gear, which then had
>to had le static hoop stress.

Nope. Look again at the surface of the brass gear.
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/HP8640B/after-filing.jpg>
Sorry about the bad lighting and focus. Notice that the surface has
raised "teeth" which cannot be pressed into a plastic gear. The brass
hub is an insert into the molded part.

>Are the gears made of nylon, or delrin?
>Delrin is claimed to be suitable for press fits, but not nylon.

My guess(tm) would be glass reinforced nylon. The teeth are stronger
than acetal (delrin) and seems like the right color. However, since
the HP plastic shrank instead of enlarged when it absorbed moisture,
my guess(tm) is that it's a mix of nylon and something else intended
to compensate for expansion due to water absorption. I guess they
added too much.

>>Bottom lines: Yes, you may need to make your own parts in order to
>>fix HP hardware.

>Yeah. I used to always buy HP printers, but the eventually beat me
>out of the habit. I do have an LaserJet5pm

That would be a LaserJet 5MP.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=laserjet+5mp&tbm=isch>
I would not consider the 5MP to be a printer worth fixing or keeping.
I've had plenty of chronic problems with those and generally refused
to fix them.

>that I bought new, and
>still works. I did have to max the memory out, though. It's cheap
>now days.

This is about 4 days collection of printers donated to the local
recycler:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/e-waste/printer-eWaste.jpg>
Note that the pile is predominantly business class HP laser printers.
Many were only a few years old. The pile of inkjet printers is
elsewhere. Most printers were in very good condition and could easily
be repaired and reused. Before the recycler signed contracts with
various printer refurbishers, I could buy some of these printers quite
cheaply, refurbish them, and sell them an acceptable profit. Most of
these HP laser printers came from local medium size businesses and
government offices. Both find it easier to obtain funding for capital
equipment purchases, than for repairs and preventive maintenance. So,
when a printer does something weird, instead of calling repair
service, IT orders a new printer and recycles the old printer. In
some companies, the rule is "nobody opens the machine" which saves
money, but creates mountains of unnecessary eWaste.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> fredag den 6. august 2021 kl. 11.51.34 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>> On 8/6/2021 2:15 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> On 05/08/2021 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>>
>>>> Exactly. And, its relatively easy to convince a jury (likely
>>>> comprised of equally "idiotic" people) that they could envision
>>>> themselves doing something similar.
>>>>
>>>> "Why *can't* I set the ladder on cow shit? What *else* can't I do
>>>> with it? Why didn't you tell me this ladder was so damn USELESS???"
>>>
>>> It is the sort of legalistic no win no fee game that forces people in the USA
>>> to have "open other end" stamped on the base of glass bottles.
>>>
>>> In the UK we still have the concept that if someone does something terminally
>>> stupid with equipment then that is their problem. Though increasingly we are
>>> getting product warning to not do insane things!
>> Who decides what is "terminally stupid"? Or, even marginally stupid?
>>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_pater_familias
>
>> Flour (for baking) comes with a warning to not eat it *raw*! (WTF? Who would
>> find the taste of raw flour appealing??). Is there a risk that someone will
>> die or suffer serious injury from doing so? (I'm *asking* as I don't know)
>
> flour potentially contain germs like E. coli, Salmonella, and Listeria
>

And mixing it with warm water (or maybe milk and sugar) and leaving it
out for a bit can help it get going, if there's any left alive.

Alfalfa and bean sprouts are even worse, I'm told, and my auld mum knew
someone who got liver flukes from eating watercress.

If you live long enough, you're bound to die of something. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Sat, 07 Aug 2021 13:08:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 10:59:34 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>>>In test equipment, HP seems to have invented a shrinking plastic
>>>formulation, which was found in the HP 8640B signal generator:
>>><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/HP8640B/index.html>
>
>>The brass hub was likely pressed into the plastic gear, which then had
>>to handle static hoop stress.
>
>Nope. Look again at the surface of the brass gear.
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/HP8640B/after-filing.jpg>
>Sorry about the bad lighting and focus. Notice that the surface has
>raised "teeth" which cannot be pressed into a plastic gear. The brass
>hub is an insert into the molded part.

Now that you point it out, I can just see the knurling on the brass
insert.

>>Are the gears made of nylon, or delrin?
>>Delrin is claimed to be suitable for press fits, but not nylon.
>
>My guess(tm) would be glass reinforced nylon. The teeth are stronger
>than acetal (delrin) and seems like the right color. However, since
>the HP plastic shrank instead of enlarged when it absorbed moisture,
>my guess(tm) is that it's a mix of nylon and something else intended
>to compensate for expansion due to water absorption. I guess they
>added too much.

Nylon is most likely. There may also have been a plasticiser of some
kind, which evaporated. Molded plastic gears are an optical illusion
anyway.

>>>Bottom lines: Yes, you may need to make your own parts in order to
>>>fix HP hardware.
>
>>Yeah. I used to always buy HP printers, but they eventually beat me
>>out of the habit. I do have an LaserJet5pm
>
>That would be a LaserJet 5MP.
><https://www.google.com/search?q=laserjet+5mp&tbm=isch>

Yes. It's basically a backup printer these days. It cannot render
and print modern complex documents.

>I would not consider the 5MP to be a printer worth fixing or keeping.
>I've had plenty of chronic problems with those and generally refused
>to fix them.

I never had any problems with HP printers back in that day. They were
built like tanks. More recently, endless trouble. As you mention
later.

>>that I bought new, and
>>still works. I did have to max the memory out, though. It's cheap
>>now days.
>
>This is about 4 days collection of printers donated to the local
>recycler:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/e-waste/printer-eWaste.jpg>
>Note that the pile is predominantly business class HP laser printers.
>Many were only a few years old. The pile of inkjet printers is
>elsewhere. Most printers were in very good condition and could easily
>be repaired and reused. Before the recycler signed contracts with
>various printer refurbishers, I could buy some of these printers quite
>cheaply, refurbish them, and sell them an acceptable profit. Most of
>these HP laser printers came from local medium size businesses and
>government offices. Both find it easier to obtain funding for capital
>equipment purchases, than for repairs and preventive maintenance. So,
>when a printer does something weird, instead of calling repair
>service, IT orders a new printer and recycles the old printer. In
>some companies, the rule is "nobody opens the machine" which saves
>money, but creates mountains of unnecessary eWaste.

Yeah, I don't think companies bother to fix that size printer, if the
printer cannot tell them what to clear or replace.

The big $30K printers big companies use are another matter. Those do
get repaired.

I recalled what I had to fix on the Brother printer. I was getting an
"Unable 32" error. This was in 2016. The fix was to install a bit of
scotch tape on the now sticky rubber pad on the flapper sensor, to
prevent it from sticking to a stop. Also took a bunch of deglazing
and cleaning of rubber rollers and the like.

Also maxed the printer DRAM to 640 MBytes, because documents were
getting bigger and more complex.

Joe Gwinn

Joerg wrote:
> On 8/6/21 12:43 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>> In article <in5glgF46bsU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> news@analogconsultants.com says...
>>>
>>> Why is it that _all_ my ham rdaio gear came with schematics and
>>> service manuals?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Do you have several thousand dollars worth of test equipment to use
>> to find the problem on the modern sets ?
>
>
> Actually, yes. the good old boat anchors and they work well.
>
>
>> ... Another few hundred for equipmant to work on the SMD parts.
>> ...
>
>
> All I need is a Weller station ($100, alrdady had it), an ETS tip for
> that ($5), 2.50 reader glasses ($1 at the Dollar store). When
> growing older I also needed a head loupe ($20). That's it.
>
>
>> ... For the older tube equipment like my Heathkit setup one can get
>> by with much less expensive test equipment.
>>
>
> Even today you can. Most faults can be diagnosed with the ehlp of
> other ham gear and a 2-channel oscilloscope.
>
>
>> I do for my ham radios as it is mainly a hobby for me. Most of the
>> test equipment is not new, but works well. For example I have a
>> service monitor that cost about $ 50,000 when new in the 1990's .
>> ...
>
>
> Exactly! That's how I got almost all my gear.
>
>
>> ... Bought it for $ 900 about 10 years ago as it was for the old
>> analog cell phones and not much use to them now. Not many are
>> going to spend $ 5,000 to $ 10,000 for a service monitor test set
>> to repair a $ 1500 radio.
>>
>
> You don't need that. A dip meter, a multimeter, a function generator
> and a scope can go a long ways. If you want to get serious buy some
> boat anchors at a hamfest.

The real boat anchor bonanza was right after the subprime bust. Two
cents on the dollar for top-of-the-line HP and Tektronix stuff, much of
it with current cal stickers.

Figuring list price, my lab has a good $2M worth of stuff that I've paid
less than $70k for, including a few much-appreciated donations early on. ;)

It's still pretty good if you know what you're buying.

Last week I repaired a really beautiful 100 kHz -- 1 GHz synthesizer
(PTS 1000) by replacing its fried output stage with a Mini Circuits
MMIC. Nice gizmo--its close-in phase noise leaves my HP 8640B in the dust.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

lørdag den 7. august 2021 kl. 23.45.42 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > fredag den 6. august 2021 kl. 11.51.34 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> >> On 8/6/2021 2:15 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> >>> On 05/08/2021 16:22, Don Y wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Exactly. And, its relatively easy to convince a jury (likely
> >>>> comprised of equally "idiotic" people) that they could envision
> >>>> themselves doing something similar.
> >>>>
> >>>> "Why *can't* I set the ladder on cow shit? What *else* can't I do
> >>>> with it? Why didn't you tell me this ladder was so damn USELESS???"
> >>>
> >>> It is the sort of legalistic no win no fee game that forces people in the USA
> >>> to have "open other end" stamped on the base of glass bottles.
> >>>
> >>> In the UK we still have the concept that if someone does something terminally
> >>> stupid with equipment then that is their problem. Though increasingly we are
> >>> getting product warning to not do insane things!
> >> Who decides what is "terminally stupid"? Or, even marginally stupid?
> >>
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_pater_familias
> >
> >> Flour (for baking) comes with a warning to not eat it *raw*! (WTF? Who would
> >> find the taste of raw flour appealing??). Is there a risk that someone will
> >> die or suffer serious injury from doing so? (I'm *asking* as I don't know)
> >
> > flour potentially contain germs like E. coli, Salmonella, and Listeria
> >
>
> And mixing it with warm water (or maybe milk and sugar) and leaving it
> out for a bit can help it get going, if there's any left alive.
>
> Alfalfa and bean sprouts are even worse, I'm told, and my auld mum knew
> someone who got liver flukes from eating watercress.
>
> If you live long enough, you're bound to die of something. ;)
>

I remember a documentary on the CDC (?) trying to track down how people
got the E. coli at restaurants that killed quite few people in California I think.
They had a hard time because they all seemed to have eaten different things

It turned out that the restaurant all got parsley from the same place and it
was contaminated by water runoff from a field of cows

There have been many similar cases of people getting sick from smoothies
or drinks made with raw frozen berries contaminated by water or picked by people
with less than clean hands

On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 17:45:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>> fredag den 6. august 2021 kl. 11.51.34 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>> On 8/6/2021 2:15 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>> On 05/08/2021 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Exactly. And, its relatively easy to convince a jury (likely
>>>>> comprised of equally "idiotic" people) that they could envision
>>>>> themselves doing something similar.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Why *can't* I set the ladder on cow shit? What *else* can't I do
>>>>> with it? Why didn't you tell me this ladder was so damn USELESS???"
>>>>
>>>> It is the sort of legalistic no win no fee game that forces people in the USA
>>>> to have "open other end" stamped on the base of glass bottles.
>>>>
>>>> In the UK we still have the concept that if someone does something terminally
>>>> stupid with equipment then that is their problem. Though increasingly we are
>>>> getting product warning to not do insane things!
>>> Who decides what is "terminally stupid"? Or, even marginally stupid?
>>>
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_pater_familias
>>
>>> Flour (for baking) comes with a warning to not eat it *raw*! (WTF? Who would
>>> find the taste of raw flour appealing??). Is there a risk that someone will
>>> die or suffer serious injury from doing so? (I'm *asking* as I don't know)
>>
>> flour potentially contain germs like E. coli, Salmonella, and Listeria
>>
>
>And mixing it with warm water (or maybe milk and sugar) and leaving it
>out for a bit can help it get going, if there's any left alive.

Some sourdough cultures have been fermenting for over a century. I
guess the good bugs kill off the bad ones.

There's lots of sourdough around that started as flour, water, and
whatever drifted in through the window.

We met the Truckee Sourdough lady and she says that's how hers got
started, in the back room of her husband's failing deli.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

Am 07.08.21 um 23:45 schrieb Joe Gwinn:

>
> I never had any problems with HP printers back in that day. They were
> built like tanks. More recently, endless trouble. As you mention
> later.

Built like a tank? Try a NEC Silentwriter LC-890 for comparison.
I had one for many a year.

:-) Gerhard

søndag den 8. august 2021 kl. 00.23.59 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 17:45:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
> >Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >> fredag den 6. august 2021 kl. 11.51.34 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> >>> On 8/6/2021 2:15 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> >>>> On 05/08/2021 16:22, Don Y wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> Exactly. And, its relatively easy to convince a jury (likely
> >>>>> comprised of equally "idiotic" people) that they could envision
> >>>>> themselves doing something similar.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Why *can't* I set the ladder on cow shit? What *else* can't I do
> >>>>> with it? Why didn't you tell me this ladder was so damn USELESS???"
> >>>>
> >>>> It is the sort of legalistic no win no fee game that forces people in the USA
> >>>> to have "open other end" stamped on the base of glass bottles.
> >>>>
> >>>> In the UK we still have the concept that if someone does something terminally
> >>>> stupid with equipment then that is their problem. Though increasingly we are
> >>>> getting product warning to not do insane things!
> >>> Who decides what is "terminally stupid"? Or, even marginally stupid?
> >>>
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_pater_familias
> >>
> >>> Flour (for baking) comes with a warning to not eat it *raw*! (WTF? Who would
> >>> find the taste of raw flour appealing??). Is there a risk that someone will
> >>> die or suffer serious injury from doing so? (I'm *asking* as I don't know)
> >>
> >> flour potentially contain germs like E. coli, Salmonella, and Listeria
> >>
> >
> >And mixing it with warm water (or maybe milk and sugar) and leaving it
> >out for a bit can help it get going, if there's any left alive.
> Some sourdough cultures have been fermenting for over a century. I
> guess the good bugs kill off the bad ones.

or the good bugs "poop" kills off the bad bugs, that's how the many kinds
of food preserved with fermentation came about

in the case of sourdough, once it is baked they are all dead

On 08/08/2021 08:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 17:45:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> fredag den 6. august 2021 kl. 11.51.34 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>> On 8/6/2021 2:15 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>> On 05/08/2021 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly. And, its relatively easy to convince a jury (likely
>>>>>> comprised of equally "idiotic" people) that they could envision
>>>>>> themselves doing something similar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Why *can't* I set the ladder on cow shit? What *else* can't I do
>>>>>> with it? Why didn't you tell me this ladder was so damn USELESS???"
>>>>>
>>>>> It is the sort of legalistic no win no fee game that forces people in the USA
>>>>> to have "open other end" stamped on the base of glass bottles.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the UK we still have the concept that if someone does something terminally
>>>>> stupid with equipment then that is their problem. Though increasingly we are
>>>>> getting product warning to not do insane things!
>>>> Who decides what is "terminally stupid"? Or, even marginally stupid?
>>>>
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_pater_familias
>>>
>>>> Flour (for baking) comes with a warning to not eat it *raw*! (WTF? Who would
>>>> find the taste of raw flour appealing??). Is there a risk that someone will
>>>> die or suffer serious injury from doing so? (I'm *asking* as I don't know)
>>>
>>> flour potentially contain germs like E. coli, Salmonella, and Listeria
>>>
>>
>> And mixing it with warm water (or maybe milk and sugar) and leaving it
>> out for a bit can help it get going, if there's any left alive.
>
> Some sourdough cultures have been fermenting for over a century. I
> guess the good bugs kill off the bad ones.
>
> There's lots of sourdough around that started as flour, water, and
> whatever drifted in through the window.
>
> We met the Truckee Sourdough lady and she says that's how hers got
> started, in the back room of her husband's failing deli.

I can't understand the popularity of sourdough - the selling point seems
to be that it uses some random microbes that happened to be present in
the kitchen, instead of ones that have been chosen by bakers over the
centuries because they make nice bread. Like instead of eating normal
vegetables why not go and pick some random weeds from a back alley near
the restaurant, that is bound to taste better and make you healtier.

On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 21:47:10 +1000, Chris Jones
<lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 08/08/2021 08:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 17:45:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>> fredag den 6. august 2021 kl. 11.51.34 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>>> On 8/6/2021 2:15 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/08/2021 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Exactly. And, its relatively easy to convince a jury (likely
>>>>>>> comprised of equally "idiotic" people) that they could envision
>>>>>>> themselves doing something similar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Why *can't* I set the ladder on cow shit? What *else* can't I do
>>>>>>> with it? Why didn't you tell me this ladder was so damn USELESS???"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is the sort of legalistic no win no fee game that forces people in the USA
>>>>>> to have "open other end" stamped on the base of glass bottles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the UK we still have the concept that if someone does something terminally
>>>>>> stupid with equipment then that is their problem. Though increasingly we are
>>>>>> getting product warning to not do insane things!
>>>>> Who decides what is "terminally stupid"? Or, even marginally stupid?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_pater_familias
>>>>
>>>>> Flour (for baking) comes with a warning to not eat it *raw*! (WTF? Who would
>>>>> find the taste of raw flour appealing??). Is there a risk that someone will
>>>>> die or suffer serious injury from doing so? (I'm *asking* as I don't know)
>>>>
>>>> flour potentially contain germs like E. coli, Salmonella, and Listeria
>>>>
>>>
>>> And mixing it with warm water (or maybe milk and sugar) and leaving it
>>> out for a bit can help it get going, if there's any left alive.
>>
>> Some sourdough cultures have been fermenting for over a century. I
>> guess the good bugs kill off the bad ones.
>>
>> There's lots of sourdough around that started as flour, water, and
>> whatever drifted in through the window.
>>
>> We met the Truckee Sourdough lady and she says that's how hers got
>> started, in the back room of her husband's failing deli.
>
>I can't understand the popularity of sourdough - the selling point seems
>to be that it uses some random microbes that happened to be present in
>the kitchen, instead of ones that have been chosen by bakers over the
>centuries because they make nice bread. Like instead of eating normal
>vegetables why not go and pick some random weeds from a back alley near
>the restaurant, that is bound to taste better and make you healtier.
>

The reason some sourough is popular is because how wonderful it
tastes. Tartine (four blocks from work!) makes a bread that some
people consider to be the best in the world.

During the worst of the lockdown, a couple near here started selling
their own sourdough out of their front yard. They called it Bernal
Bakery. It was so popular that they have gone commercial. I guess it
was a combination of baking skill and critter luck.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a1itlok0qdbduuq/AAAD_gB_i_zsaJevOAHl4rxla?dl=0

It's *really* hard to cut. They should sell giant serrated knives or
small chainsaws alongside the bread.

They also make a sort of sweet-and-sour sticky bun that's fabulous.

Most amateur sourdoughs are bland because the random microbes weren't
very good. Rarely people get lucky. Not many mines have diamonds.

The Herb Caen Dinner is cracked crab, sourdough, and beer.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 17:45:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> fredag den 6. august 2021 kl. 11.51.34 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>> On 8/6/2021 2:15 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>> On 05/08/2021 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly. And, its relatively easy to convince a jury (likely
>>>>>> comprised of equally "idiotic" people) that they could envision
>>>>>> themselves doing something similar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Why *can't* I set the ladder on cow shit? What *else* can't I do
>>>>>> with it? Why didn't you tell me this ladder was so damn USELESS???"
>>>>>
>>>>> It is the sort of legalistic no win no fee game that forces people in the USA
>>>>> to have "open other end" stamped on the base of glass bottles.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the UK we still have the concept that if someone does something terminally
>>>>> stupid with equipment then that is their problem. Though increasingly we are
>>>>> getting product warning to not do insane things!
>>>> Who decides what is "terminally stupid"? Or, even marginally stupid?
>>>>
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_pater_familias
>>>
>>>> Flour (for baking) comes with a warning to not eat it *raw*! (WTF? Who would
>>>> find the taste of raw flour appealing??).

Cookie dough?

Is there a risk that someone will
>>>> die or suffer serious injury from doing so? (I'm *asking* as I don't know)
>>>
>>> flour potentially contain germs like E. coli, Salmonella, and Listeria
>>>
>>
>> And mixing it with warm water (or maybe milk and sugar) and leaving it
>> out for a bit can help it get going, if there's any left alive.
>
> Some sourdough cultures have been fermenting for over a century. I
> guess the good bugs kill off the bad ones.
>
> There's lots of sourdough around that started as flour, water, and
> whatever drifted in through the window.

Yup. Fortunately there's almost no overlap between decay germs and
pathogens.
>
> We met the Truckee Sourdough lady and she says that's how hers got
> started, in the back room of her husband's failing deli.

Back in the pandemic, there was a yeast guy on Youtube explaining how to
collect yeast. His simplest scheme was taking raisins and rinsing them
with warm water, then adding some flour and a bit of sugar to the water.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Chris Jones wrote:
> On 08/08/2021 08:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 17:45:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>> fredag den 6. august 2021 kl. 11.51.34 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>>> On 8/6/2021 2:15 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/08/2021 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Exactly. And, its relatively easy to convince a jury (likely
>>>>>>> comprised of equally "idiotic" people) that they could envision
>>>>>>> themselves doing something similar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Why *can't* I set the ladder on cow shit? What *else* can't I do
>>>>>>> with it? Why didn't you tell me this ladder was so damn USELESS???"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is the sort of legalistic no win no fee game that forces people
>>>>>> in the USA
>>>>>> to have "open other end" stamped on the base of glass bottles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the UK we still have the concept that if someone does something
>>>>>> terminally
>>>>>> stupid with equipment then that is their problem. Though
>>>>>> increasingly we are
>>>>>> getting product warning to not do insane things!
>>>>> Who decides what is "terminally stupid"? Or, even marginally stupid?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_pater_familias
>>>>
>>>>> Flour (for baking) comes with a warning to not eat it *raw*! (WTF?
>>>>> Who would
>>>>> find the taste of raw flour appealing??). Is there a risk that
>>>>> someone will
>>>>> die or suffer serious injury from doing so? (I'm *asking* as I
>>>>> don't know)
>>>>
>>>> flour potentially contain germs like E. coli, Salmonella, and Listeria
>>>>
>>>
>>> And mixing it with warm water (or maybe milk and sugar) and leaving it
>>> out for a bit can help it get going, if there's any left alive.
>>
>> Some sourdough cultures have been fermenting for over a century. I
>> guess the good bugs kill off the bad ones.
>>
>> There's lots of sourdough around that started as flour, water, and
>> whatever drifted in through the window.
>>
>> We met the Truckee Sourdough lady and she says that's how hers got
>> started, in the back room of her husband's failing deli.
>
> I can't understand the popularity of sourdough - the selling point seems
> to be that it uses some random microbes that happened to be present in
> the kitchen, instead of ones that have been chosen by bakers over the
> centuries because they make nice bread. Like instead of eating normal
> vegetables why not go and pick some random weeds from a back alley near
> the restaurant, that is bound to taste better and make you healtier.

You can make sourdough bread using ordinary dried yeast--you just let it
grow for a couple of days to form a starter. Works fine.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
>
>

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Sat, 07 Aug 2021 17:45:50 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:

>On Sat, 07 Aug 2021 13:08:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 10:59:34 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>wrote:
>>>Are the gears made of nylon, or delrin?
>>>Delrin is claimed to be suitable for press fits, but not nylon.
>>
>>My guess(tm) would be glass reinforced nylon. The teeth are stronger
>>than acetal (delrin) and seems like the right color. However, since
>>the HP plastic shrank instead of enlarged when it absorbed moisture,
>>my guess(tm) is that it's a mix of nylon and something else intended
>>to compensate for expansion due to water absorption. I guess they
>>added too much.
>
>Nylon is most likely. There may also have been a plasticiser of some
>kind, which evaporated. Molded plastic gears are an optical illusion
>anyway.

Nope. Plasticizer is what is used in various compounds, including
nylon, to make them soft and flexible. That's the last think I would
want to see in a toothed gear. Plasticizer can be used to reduce
friction in gears, but that's not needed in the HP8640B, where the
gears are rarely rotated and then only by hand.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticizer>
Also, note that plasticizers are usually low volatility and act much
like an oil. Were there to be a loss of plasticizer in the gears,
there would also be a corresponding oily mess all over the mechanism
or a puddle on the bottom cover. I've been there with flexible rubber
parts. Silicone rubber keyboards are a good example of leaking
plasticizer. Such keyboards are highly flexible and subject to finger
pressure compression. After a few years, the plasticizer is literally
squeezed out of the rubber and onto the gold PCB contacts and forming
an insulating layer. That's when I have to open the TV remote, phone,
calculator keyboard, or whatever and clean off the plasticizer.

>>That would be a LaserJet 5MP.
>><https://www.google.com/search?q=laserjet+5mp&tbm=isch>
>
>Yes. It's basically a backup printer these days. It cannot render
>and print modern complex documents.

Yep. In the days that the 5MP was popular (1995-?), computahs were
seriously underpowered. Low end printers were cutting costs by having
the rasterization and font rendering done in the computer instead of
the printer. This was when the Postscript (everything done in the
printer) vs Truetype (everything done in the computah) battle raged.
What is probably happening is your modern computer is trying to print
a complex document and expecting an equally modern printer. When
faced with an antique printer, Windoze resorts to sending a bitmapped
full page image of the page, rendered in the computers memory. This
can be rather slow.

Trying to print an 8.5x11inch, 1200 dpi graphic, 16 bit gray scale,
image is going to require quite a bit of computah RAM.
8.5x11 = 93.5 sq-in
1200x1200 pixels/sq-in = 1.44 Mpixels/sq-in
93.5 * 1.44M = 134,640,000 pixels per page
Each pixel can have various shades of gray. The laser printers are
either 8 or 16 bits/pixel (256 or 65,536) shades of gray.
134,640,000 pixels/page * 256 shades/pixel / 8
= 4.3 MBytes/page
memory required in the printer. Your 5MP printer can probably handle
that. However 16 bits gray scale per pixel requires:
134,640,000 pixels/page * 65,536 shades/pixel / 8
= 1.103*10^12 = 1.1 Terabytes of RAM.
That's not going to happen on anything less than a laser printer with
a built in hard disk drive for virtual storage. Whatever your
printing has to be matched to the laser printers capabilities in terms
of DPI (pixels/sq-in), page size (8.5x11in), and gray scale (8, 12, or
16 bit). If you complex document exceeds the printers capabilities,
it simply won't print. Incidentally, I used to carry around a
floppy/CD/flash drive with test prints to test what will break the
printing system.

Hint: Reduce your expectations.

>>I would not consider the 5MP to be a printer worth fixing or keeping.
>>I've had plenty of chronic problems with those and generally refused
>>to fix them.
>
>I never had any problems with HP printers back in that day. They were
>built like tanks. More recently, endless trouble. As you mention
>later.

I beg to differ. I had a thriving side business repairing mostly HP
laser printers between about 1984 (first HP LaserJet) to about
1997(?), when HP decided to start making "affordable" laser printers
and switched from quality Canon engines to various Chinese sources.
<http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?class=5&cat=19>
There were plenty of problems in the older printers to keep me busy
and support my decadent and lavish lifestyle. I could get 1/2 million
pages out of the older LJ3 and LJ4 printers, but it would eat fuser
lamps, power supplies, fans, rubber rollers, and fuser assemblies to
get there. In general, it was one rebuild every 75,000 to 100,000
pages printed.

After HP stopped making laser printers that would last a lifetime and
switched to cheap junk, things were very different. The major change
(for me) was that mechanical parts would break or wear out. The
rattle produced by these printers was an ominous clue that they were
loosely and sloppily designed and built. On some printers,
disassembly was a major project. Along the way, HP produced some
winners and some losers. The 5MP was one of the losers.

>Yeah, I don't think companies bother to fix that size printer, if the
>printer cannot tell them what to clear or replace.
>
>The big $30K printers big companies use are another matter. Those do
>get repaired.

The big printers usually require a service contract which takes care
of the preventive maintenance and parts availability problem. Much of
the eWaste I've seen are such large printers, where the cost of the
service contract exceeded the value of the printer, where it was more
economical to buy a replacement than to continue fixing the old
printer. Typical life cycle was about 5 years. There was also a
reluctance by management to have employees work on even simple tasks,
such as changing an air filter, emptying a toner waste bin, or minor
cleaning. "Am I paying you to do this?" was a commonly heard question
posed by management.

>I recalled what I had to fix on the Brother printer. I was getting an
>"Unable 32" error. This was in 2016. The fix was to install a bit of
>scotch tape on the now sticky rubber pad on the flapper sensor, to
>prevent it from sticking to a stop. Also took a bunch of deglazing
>and cleaning of rubber rollers and the like.

Common problem and the same problem as with HP. The foam pad used to
dampen paddle switches, solenoids, and some moving parts decomposes
(actually depolymerizes) and turns to sticky goo. Videos:
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=brother+print+unable+32>
Because of the heat, the tape should be Kapton tape, which doesn't
"dry out" and fall off. However, I have a different method. Remove
the sticky foam pad with alcohol, and replace it with either sticky
tape backed felt pads, or a better grade of foam weather stripping.
Make sure to get the same thickness as the original, and check the it
will crush to the same amount as the original. One of these:
<https://www.acehardware.com/search?query=felt+pad>

Cleaning rubber rollers is a good idea, but don't use any solvent
cleaner that doesn't replace the plasticizer in the rubber.
Chlorinated hydrocarbon solvents will clean and deglaze the rubber
rollers, but will also cause them to harden because the plasticizer is
now gone. I use a noxious, toxic, and VoC banned concoction with a
zylene base that works great, but stinks bad enough that I can only
apply it outdoors. Maybe try a commercial product:
<https://www.amazon.com/Max-Professional-2145-Rubber-Rejuvenator/dp/B00363M0TC>
<https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-408A-125ML-Rubber-Liquid/dp/B008O9X3KS/>
I haven't tried these because I have a lifetime supply of the noxious
stuff.

>Also maxed the printer DRAM to 640 MBytes, because documents were
>getting bigger and more complex.

So much for the paperless office. See my calculations for how much
RAM you need. Reminder: Laser printers have to have the entire page
in memory before it can print. Inkjet printers only need to have a
strip the width of the print head stored in memory in order to print.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 13:01:37 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 17:45:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>> fredag den 6. august 2021 kl. 11.51.34 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>>> On 8/6/2021 2:15 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/08/2021 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Exactly. And, its relatively easy to convince a jury (likely
>>>>>>> comprised of equally "idiotic" people) that they could envision
>>>>>>> themselves doing something similar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Why *can't* I set the ladder on cow shit? What *else* can't I do
>>>>>>> with it? Why didn't you tell me this ladder was so damn USELESS???"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is the sort of legalistic no win no fee game that forces people in the USA
>>>>>> to have "open other end" stamped on the base of glass bottles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the UK we still have the concept that if someone does something terminally
>>>>>> stupid with equipment then that is their problem. Though increasingly we are
>>>>>> getting product warning to not do insane things!
>>>>> Who decides what is "terminally stupid"? Or, even marginally stupid?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_pater_familias
>>>>
>>>>> Flour (for baking) comes with a warning to not eat it *raw*! (WTF? Who would
>>>>> find the taste of raw flour appealing??).
>
>Cookie dough?
>
>Is there a risk that someone will
>>>>> die or suffer serious injury from doing so? (I'm *asking* as I don't know)
>>>>
>>>> flour potentially contain germs like E. coli, Salmonella, and Listeria
>>>>
>>>
>>> And mixing it with warm water (or maybe milk and sugar) and leaving it
>>> out for a bit can help it get going, if there's any left alive.
>>
>> Some sourdough cultures have been fermenting for over a century. I
>> guess the good bugs kill off the bad ones.
>>
>> There's lots of sourdough around that started as flour, water, and
>> whatever drifted in through the window.
>
>Yup. Fortunately there's almost no overlap between decay germs and
>pathogens.
>>
>> We met the Truckee Sourdough lady and she says that's how hers got
>> started, in the back room of her husband's failing deli.
>
>Back in the pandemic, there was a yeast guy on Youtube explaining how to
>collect yeast. His simplest scheme was taking raisins and rinsing them
>with warm water, then adding some flour and a bit of sugar to the water.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

Most California wine is made by killing the native critters and adding
some sort of yeast. In the French countryside, they let nature take
its course.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 00:30:20 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
wrote:

>Am 07.08.21 um 23:45 schrieb Joe Gwinn:
>> I never had any problems with HP printers back in that day. They were
>> built like tanks. More recently, endless trouble. As you mention
>> later.

>Built like a tank? Try a NEC Silentwriter LC-890 for comparison.
>I had one for many a year.
>:-) Gerhard

Built like a tank and weighing as much as a small tank is one of the
reasons that many HP printer owners prefer to have their printer
repaired, instead of replacing it. They also tend to keep their old
heavy printers running for a longer time. That's because they don't
want to deal with dragging the old printer to the recycler and
dragging the replacement back to the office. Best to delay such
exercise as long as possible.

I acquired a lightly used HP Color LaserJet Pro MFP M477fnw printer
form a customer that was closing their office. It weighs about 50 lbs
(22.7kg). It took some effort carrying it up the stairs to my house.
<https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-color-laserjet-pro-mfp-m477fnw>
I'm currently refurbishing an HP Color LaserJet CP1518ni printer which
weighs 40 lb (18.2 kg) which is giving me far too much exercise. I
can see why offices don't like to upgrade and move heavy printers.

I couldn't find how much your Silentwriter LC-890 weighed.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 8/8/2021 11:05 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Aug 2021 17:45:50 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> Yep. In the days that the 5MP was popular (1995-?), computahs were
> seriously underpowered. Low end printers were cutting costs by having
> the rasterization and font rendering done in the computer instead of
> the printer. This was when the Postscript (everything done in the
> printer) vs Truetype (everything done in the computah) battle raged.
> What is probably happening is your modern computer is trying to print
> a complex document and expecting an equally modern printer. When
> faced with an antique printer, Windoze resorts to sending a bitmapped
> full page image of the page, rendered in the computers memory. This
> can be rather slow.
>
> Trying to print an 8.5x11inch, 1200 dpi graphic, 16 bit gray scale,
> image is going to require quite a bit of computah RAM.
> 8.5x11 = 93.5 sq-in
> 1200x1200 pixels/sq-in = 1.44 Mpixels/sq-in
> 93.5 * 1.44M = 134,640,000 pixels per page
> Each pixel can have various shades of gray. The laser printers are
> either 8 or 16 bits/pixel (256 or 65,536) shades of gray.
> 134,640,000 pixels/page * 256 shades/pixel / 8
> = 4.3 MBytes/page
> memory required in the printer. Your 5MP printer can probably handle
> that. However 16 bits gray scale per pixel requires:
> 134,640,000 pixels/page * 65,536 shades/pixel / 8
> = 1.103*10^12 = 1.1 Terabytes of RAM.
> That's not going to happen on anything less than a laser printer with
> a built in hard disk drive for virtual storage. Whatever your
> printing has to be matched to the laser printers capabilities in terms
> of DPI (pixels/sq-in), page size (8.5x11in), and gray scale (8, 12, or
> 16 bit). If you complex document exceeds the printers capabilities,
> it simply won't print. Incidentally, I used to carry around a
> floppy/CD/flash drive with test prints to test what will break the
> printing system.

No, that's a naive expectation. You don't need to keep an entire
page in RAM to be able to generate a page *in* the computer.

You treat the page as a series of smaller regions (the top 1", the
next 1", etc.) and define a clipping region into which you "draw"
the page.

Then, ship that portion off to the printer.

Then, move the clipping region to the next region and repeat the process.

The printer can never know how long it will take you to send an entire
page, so it has to be willing to accept a region's worth at a time...
with indeterminate pauses between them.

The same process can happen in the printer (e.g., send a PDL representation
to the printer and let it create a portion of the page at a time). If
the printer can *internally* render faster than the marking engine,
then it only needs enough of a buffer to keep ahead of the marking engine.

When printing text (using internal/downloaded font generation) and/or
mixed text and limited graphics, this allows the printer to cheat on
RAM requirements.

My Phasers were 1200dpi and none of them had more than 200MB of RAM
(and they can't pause and restart the marking engine once it's begun)

> Hint: Reduce your expectations.
>
>> Also maxed the printer DRAM to 640 MBytes, because documents were
>> getting bigger and more complex.
>
> So much for the paperless office. See my calculations for how much
> RAM you need. Reminder: Laser printers have to have the entire page
> in memory before it can print.

So, whatever memory you have in your printer, by definition, is
adequate for it to be able to print whatever it needs to print
(subject to the caveats, below -- and above).

> Inkjet printers only need to have a
> strip the width of the print head stored in memory in order to print.

But the printer only has to store what it *thinks* it needs to
print. E.g., if you can't resolve 16 bits of grayscale, then you
don't need to hold 16 bits of greyscale per pel.

IIRC, color lasers print 4 different monochrome pages, in succession.

Am 08.08.21 um 20:05 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
> On Sat, 07 Aug 2021 17:45:50 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 07 Aug 2021 13:08:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 10:59:34 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Are the gears made of nylon, or delrin?
>>>> Delrin is claimed to be suitable for press fits, but not nylon.
>>>
>>> My guess(tm) would be glass reinforced nylon. The teeth are stronger
>>> than acetal (delrin) and seems like the right color. However, since
>>> the HP plastic shrank instead of enlarged when it absorbed moisture,
>>> my guess(tm) is that it's a mix of nylon and something else intended
>>> to compensate for expansion due to water absorption. I guess they
>>> added too much.
>>
>> Nylon is most likely. There may also have been a plasticiser of some
>> kind, which evaporated. Molded plastic gears are an optical illusion
>> anyway.
>
> Nope. Plasticizer is what is used in various compounds, including
> nylon, to make them soft and flexible. That's the last think I would
> want to see in a toothed gear. Plasticizer can be used to reduce
> friction in gears, but that's not needed in the HP8640B, where the
> gears are rarely rotated and then only by hand.

The HP 8640B now has the problem that its Delrin gears loose teeth.
There is a ham in Italy who makes new wheels from brass.

Gerhard

On 8/8/2021 11:28 AM, Don Y wrote:
> On 8/8/2021 11:05 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>> Trying to print an 8.5x11inch, 1200 dpi graphic, 16 bit gray scale,
>> image is going to require quite a bit of computah RAM.
>> 8.5x11 = 93.5 sq-in
>> 1200x1200 pixels/sq-in = 1.44 Mpixels/sq-in
>> 93.5 * 1.44M = 134,640,000 pixels per page
>> Each pixel can have various shades of gray. The laser printers are
>> either 8 or 16 bits/pixel (256 or 65,536) shades of gray.
>> 134,640,000 pixels/page * 256 shades/pixel / 8
>> = 4.3 MBytes/page
>> memory required in the printer. Your 5MP printer can probably handle
>> that. However 16 bits gray scale per pixel requires:
>> 134,640,000 pixels/page * 65,536 shades/pixel / 8

------------------------------------------------------^^^

No, what you want is log2 of 65K -- 16.

>> = 1.103*10^12 = 1.1 Terabytes of RAM.

No. 134 Mpx and each needs 2 *bytes* to represent 65K shades of grey.
So, ~270MB of RAM to represent a page.

134MB at 256 shades of grey (@1200x1200 per color).

A 300dpi printer requires ~8MB for 256 shades of grey and 16MB for 65K.

So, 1200x1200 is 16 times the density (per unit area) which would
be 16 times the memory.

On Sun, 08 Aug 2021 11:05:12 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 07 Aug 2021 17:45:50 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 07 Aug 2021 13:08:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 10:59:34 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>>Are the gears made of nylon, or delrin?
>>>>Delrin is claimed to be suitable for press fits, but not nylon.
>>>
>>>My guess(tm) would be glass reinforced nylon. The teeth are stronger
>>>than acetal (delrin) and seems like the right color. However, since
>>>the HP plastic shrank instead of enlarged when it absorbed moisture,
>>>my guess(tm) is that it's a mix of nylon and something else intended
>>>to compensate for expansion due to water absorption. I guess they
>>>added too much.
>>
>>Nylon is most likely. There may also have been a plasticiser of some
>>kind, which evaporated. Molded plastic gears are an optical illusion
>>anyway.
>
>Nope. Plasticizer is what is used in various compounds, including
>nylon, to make them soft and flexible. That's the last think I would
>want to see in a toothed gear. Plasticizer can be used to reduce
>friction in gears, but that's not needed in the HP8640B, where the
>gears are rarely rotated and then only by hand.
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticizer>

I'd assume that the reason to use plasticizer here would be for
increased toughness.

>Also, note that plasticizers are usually low volatility and act much
>like an oil. Were there to be a loss of plasticizer in the gears,
>there would also be a corresponding oily mess all over the mechanism
>or a puddle on the bottom cover.

Not necessarily. Plasticizers are rated by their volatility, which
implies evaporation, versus extrusion. Nor do we know which
plasticizer was used, if any.

> I've been there with flexible rubber
>parts. Silicone rubber keyboards are a good example of leaking
>plasticizer. Such keyboards are highly flexible and subject to finger
>pressure compression. After a few years, the plasticizer is literally
>squeezed out of the rubber and onto the gold PCB contacts and forming
>an insulating layer. That's when I have to open the TV remote, phone,
>calculator keyboard, or whatever and clean off the plasticizer.

Yeah, I've seen that too.

>>>That would be a LaserJet 5MP.
>>><https://www.google.com/search?q=laserjet+5mp&tbm=isch>
>>
>>Yes. It's basically a backup printer these days. It cannot render
>>and print modern complex documents.
>
>Yep. In the days that the 5MP was popular (1995-?), computahs were
>seriously underpowered. Low end printers were cutting costs by having
>the rasterization and font rendering done in the computer instead of
>the printer. This was when the Postscript (everything done in the
>printer) vs Truetype (everything done in the computah) battle raged.
>What is probably happening is your modern computer is trying to print
>a complex document and expecting an equally modern printer. When
>faced with an antique printer, Windoze resorts to sending a bitmapped
>full page image of the page, rendered in the computers memory. This
>can be rather slow.
>
>Trying to print an 8.5x11inch, 1200 dpi graphic, 16 bit gray scale,
>image is going to require quite a bit of computah RAM.
> 8.5x11 = 93.5 sq-in
> 1200x1200 pixels/sq-in = 1.44 Mpixels/sq-in
> 93.5 * 1.44M = 134,640,000 pixels per page
>Each pixel can have various shades of gray. The laser printers are
>either 8 or 16 bits/pixel (256 or 65,536) shades of gray.
> 134,640,000 pixels/page * 256 shades/pixel / 8
> = 4.3 MBytes/page
>memory required in the printer. Your 5MP printer can probably handle
>that. However 16 bits gray scale per pixel requires:
> 134,640,000 pixels/page * 65,536 shades/pixel / 8
> = 1.103*10^12 = 1.1 Terabytes of RAM.
>That's not going to happen on anything less than a laser printer with
>a built in hard disk drive for virtual storage. Whatever your
>printing has to be matched to the laser printers capabilities in terms
>of DPI (pixels/sq-in), page size (8.5x11in), and gray scale (8, 12, or
>16 bit). If you complex document exceeds the printers capabilities,
>it simply won't print. Incidentally, I used to carry around a
>floppy/CD/flash drive with test prints to test what will break the
>printing system.

Sounds about right.

>Hint: Reduce your expectations.

Hmm. It's a backup printer these days. Eventually, I'll de-accession
it.

>>>I would not consider the 5MP to be a printer worth fixing or keeping.
>>>I've had plenty of chronic problems with those and generally refused
>>>to fix them.
>>
>>I never had any problems with HP printers back in that day. They were
>>built like tanks. More recently, endless trouble. As you mention
>>later.
>
>I beg to differ. I had a thriving side business repairing mostly HP
>laser printers between about 1984 (first HP LaserJet) to about
>1997(?), when HP decided to start making "affordable" laser printers
>and switched from quality Canon engines to various Chinese sources.
><http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?class=5&cat=19>
>There were plenty of problems in the older printers to keep me busy
>and support my decadent and lavish lifestyle. I could get 1/2 million
>pages out of the older LJ3 and LJ4 printers, but it would eat fuser
>lamps, power supplies, fans, rubber rollers, and fuser assemblies to
>get there. In general, it was one rebuild every 75,000 to 100,000
>pages printed.

Well, my experience is different, for a simple reason.

I always bought printers intended for small businesses, for use in my
home. These printers got enough traffic to stay healthy, but never
wore out. I was buying reliability by spending up front.

Hmm. I don't think I've ever reached 75,000 pages on a printer, even
with COVID related demand. I'll have to look.

>After HP stopped making laser printers that would last a lifetime and
>switched to cheap junk, things were very different. The major change
>(for me) was that mechanical parts would break or wear out. The
>rattle produced by these printers was an ominous clue that they were
>loosely and sloppily designed and built. On some printers,
>disassembly was a major project. Along the way, HP produced some
>winners and some losers. The 5MP was one of the losers.

Yeah. But my 5mp is still young at heart.

If I recall, I bought it in 1996, for about US $1000.

Lasers were ideal for my use case, as their ink did not dry out or
degrade between uses.

>>Yeah, I don't think companies bother to fix that size printer, if the
>>printer cannot tell them what to clear or replace.
>>
>>The big $30K printers big companies use are another matter. Those do
>>get repaired.
>
>The big printers usually require a service contract which takes care
>of the preventive maintenance and parts availability problem. Much of
>the eWaste I've seen are such large printers, where the cost of the
>service contract exceeded the value of the printer, where it was more
>economical to buy a replacement than to continue fixing the old
>printer. Typical life cycle was about 5 years. There was also a
>reluctance by management to have employees work on even simple tasks,
>such as changing an air filter, emptying a toner waste bin, or minor
>cleaning. "Am I paying you to do this?" was a commonly heard question
>posed by management.

This sounds about right, although where I've worked, company employees
did perform service calls, like clearing jams that we couldn't clear
ourselves.

>>I recalled what I had to fix on the Brother printer. I was getting an
>>"Unable 32" error. This was in 2016. The fix was to install a bit of
>>scotch tape on the now sticky rubber pad on the flapper sensor, to
>>prevent it from sticking to a stop. Also took a bunch of deglazing
>>and cleaning of rubber rollers and the like.
>
>Common problem and the same problem as with HP. The foam pad used to
>dampen paddle switches, solenoids, and some moving parts decomposes
>(actually depolymerizes) and turns to sticky goo. Videos:
><https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=brother+print+unable+32>
>Because of the heat, the tape should be Kapton tape, which doesn't
>"dry out" and fall off. However, I have a different method. Remove
>the sticky foam pad with alcohol, and replace it with either sticky
>tape backed felt pads, or a better grade of foam weather stripping.
>Make sure to get the same thickness as the original, and check the it
>will crush to the same amount as the original. One of these:
><https://www.acehardware.com/search?query=felt+pad>

On 8/8/2021 1:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>> I never had any problems with HP printers back in that day. They were
>>> built like tanks. More recently, endless trouble. As you mention
>>> later.
>>
>> I beg to differ. I had a thriving side business repairing mostly HP
>> laser printers between about 1984 (first HP LaserJet) to about
>> 1997(?), when HP decided to start making "affordable" laser printers
>> and switched from quality Canon engines to various Chinese sources.
>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?class=5&cat=19>
>> There were plenty of problems in the older printers to keep me busy
>> and support my decadent and lavish lifestyle. I could get 1/2 million
>> pages out of the older LJ3 and LJ4 printers, but it would eat fuser
>> lamps, power supplies, fans, rubber rollers, and fuser assemblies to
>> get there. In general, it was one rebuild every 75,000 to 100,000
>> pages printed.
>
> Well, my experience is different, for a simple reason.
>
> I always bought printers intended for small businesses, for use in my
> home. These printers got enough traffic to stay healthy, but never
> wore out. I was buying reliability by spending up front.
>
> Hmm. I don't think I've ever reached 75,000 pages on a printer, even
> with COVID related demand. I'll have to look.

This LJ5p is now at 79434 pages (but I don't know how many of those were
on the printer when I rescued it). Firmware is dated 1994; I've probably had
it for at least 10-15 of those years.

But, it sees very little use as it only serves *this* (outfacing) computer.

There's a 6p in the office that sees more (e.g., printing our estate documents
was probably a few thousand pages, by the time we sorted out the various
revisions -- which *really* are best done with a pen on paper).

But, even if I'd had to buy the printers *and* the toner, they'd still be a
bargain compared to the folly of inkjet! (I discarded a 1200dpi Epson ~16"
wide and another 600? dpi wide-body plotter emulator as the ink was annoying,
even if free!)

OTOH, the phasers and bigger/faster LJs didn't justify their costs
(power, startup time, etc.) The phasers were particularly inefficient
with (expensive!) ink as they'd have to run a purge cycle each time
powered up.

And, I got tired of smelling "burnt crayons"!

[The LJ5/6 are low enough power that I can leave them on 24/7/365 and not have
to worry about fuser warmup!]

I use the local library's 10c/page color printer for any color or high
volume work. I can submit print jobs from home and then just pick them
up when I'm next at the library (which is typ twice a week)