I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le think that acting macho and pretending that they could comfortably ride ridiculous gearing somehow makes them a superior rider and not a boob being taken in by media asses.

Campagnolo had almost the entire market and Shimano took over in TWO YEARS because they offered the components that would allow gearing that people could actually ride.

We just watched as every record in the books has been broken by riders that are spinners. CAMPY GEARING did not allow that. I used Campy at first because the only alternative was some unreliable English and French components.

Then when Shimano came out with the 7 speed brifters I immediately changed over. Campy improved their products part way but retained that idea of big gears being faster when they aren't. The power output of the human body is sharply limited and larger gearing only puts more stress on it and tires you more rapidly.

Watch those YouTube Alviso Crits which show power meter outputs., Cat A's are showing 1200 watts acceleration out of the corners for the first part of the race are by the end showing 800 or less. Average Power is less than 400 watts for the best riders. The Pros have an entire team to help them to the end of a race so that they can sprint at 800 watts through the finish line,
People denying that are almost all people that don't really ride.

Lou is most certainly a good rider but remember that most of his riding is in a dead flat country close to sea level. And he is young and unfamiliar with what gearing used to be.

I changed back to Campy when their brifters became more intuitive to use and I was still young enough to pull huge gears. Does that mean that I was any faster than with the Shimano? No, I was slower and I knew it. And Shimano was winning most of the races.

So let's stop with this macho crap that bigger gears are faster when even TT bikes show otherwise.

On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 5:26:32 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le think that acting macho and pretending that they could comfortably ride ridiculous gearing somehow makes them a superior rider and not a boob being taken in by media asses.

Who is acting macho here?

>
> Campagnolo had almost the entire market and Shimano took over in TWO YEARS because they offered the components that would allow gearing that people could actually ride.

No Shimano shifted better at a certain moment, came with reliable index shifting and STI. Campy was arrogant and missed the boat . It took a while before they realized that and couldn't catch up again to the market share they once had.

> We just watched as every record in the books has been broken by riders that are spinners. CAMPY GEARING did not allow that. I used Campy at first because the only alternative was some unreliable English and French components.

Again they were arrogant.

..
>
> Lou is most certainly a good rider but remember that most of his riding is in a dead flat country close to sea level. And he is young and unfamiliar with what gearing used to be.

Young? I riding road bikes for 35-40 years now and started with a 12 speed gearing 52/42 and 12-24. I invite you the climb the Redoute in the Ardennes with that gearing. After that experience I change it to a 26T largest cog to ride the 230 km Luik-Bastenaken-Luik cassic in the same Ardennes. I rode that 4 times.

> So let's stop with this macho crap that bigger gears are faster when even TT bikes show otherwise.

No one is acting macho and when we grow older we need lower gearing. Nothing to be ashamed off.

Lou

On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 12:28:46 PM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 5:26:32 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le think that acting macho and pretending that they could comfortably ride ridiculous gearing somehow makes them a superior rider and not a boob being taken in by media asses.
> Who is acting macho here?
> >
> > Campagnolo had almost the entire market and Shimano took over in TWO YEARS because they offered the components that would allow gearing that people could actually ride.
> No Shimano shifted better at a certain moment, came with reliable index shifting and STI. Campy was arrogant and missed the boat . It took a while before they realized that and couldn't catch up again to the market share they once had.

+1

I distinctly remember the Shimano SIS derided as being for people who don't know how to shift. The ratios had nothing to do with it.

> > We just watched as every record in the books has been broken by riders that are spinners. CAMPY GEARING did not allow that. I used Campy at first because the only alternative was some unreliable English and French components.
> Again they were arrogant.

Gee, that's funny, my first 9 speed group was Chorus Ergo, in about 1993(?) came with a 53/39 and a 12/23. ( I raced Chorus 9 until about 2010, and kept it on my CX rigs until a few years ago). The Shimano Ultegra at the time offered the same gearing. the 10 speed set-ups were even better, you could swap campy and shimano standards with very little impact on shifting - Both offered 11/23 and 11/25 road cassettes. As far as I remember, I don't recall shmano ever offering different gearing until maybe very recently when they started putting MTB gearing on gravel bikes.

> .
> >
> > Lou is most certainly a good rider but remember that most of his riding is in a dead flat country close to sea level. And he is young and unfamiliar with what gearing used to be.
> Young? I riding road bikes for 35-40 years now and started with a 12 speed gearing 52/42 and 12-24. I invite you the climb the Redoute in the Ardennes with that gearing. After that experience I change it to a 26T largest cog to ride the 230 km Luik-Bastenaken-Luik cassic in the same Ardennes. I rode that 4 times.
> > So let's stop with this macho crap that bigger gears are faster when even TT bikes show otherwise.
> No one is acting macho and when we grow older we need lower gearing. Nothing to be ashamed off.
>
> Lou

On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 11:26:32 AM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le think that acting macho and pretending that they could comfortably ride ridiculous gearing somehow makes them a superior rider and not a boob being taken in by media asses.
>
> Campagnolo had almost the entire market and Shimano took over in TWO YEARS because they offered the components that would allow gearing that people could actually ride.
>
> We just watched as every record in the books has been broken by riders that are spinners. CAMPY GEARING did not allow that.

oh, please, you idiot....Campy offered the same gearing as shimano. If it was spinning that broken the records, it's just as easy for someone to spin a shimano 50x14 as a campy 54x15

> I used Campy at first because the only alternative was some unreliable English and French components.
>
> Then when Shimano came out with the 7 speed brifters I immediately changed over. Campy improved their products part way but retained that idea of big gears being faster when they aren't. The power output of the human body is sharply limited and larger gearing only puts more stress on it and tires you more rapidly.

Try maintaining 300 watts at a cadence of 80 vs a cadence of 100, see which one tires you more quickly.

>
> Watch those YouTube Alviso Crits which show power meter outputs., Cat A's are showing 1200 watts acceleration out of the corners for the first part of the race are by the end showing 800 or less. Average Power is less than 400 watts for the best riders.

What's your point? How is this related to gearing?

>The Pros have an entire team to help them to the end of a race so that they can sprint at 800 watts through the finish line,

Right concept, wrong numbers. Most pros hit well over 1KW at the sprint, even after a long grand tour stage. from https://cyclingtips.com/2017/06/just-how-good-are-male-pro-road-cyclists/

"If you saw the 2017 Milan-San Remo you almost certainly remember the blistering attack from Peter Sagan (Bora-Hansgrohe) on the Poggio. Only two riders could follow him and one of them, Michal Kwiatkowski (Team Sky), went on to win the race.....Kwiatkowski averaged 1,149W (16.9W/kg) for the last five seconds of the race to just get past Sagan. Most amateurs are happy to see over 1,000 watts in a max sprint, and again this is without nearly 300km in their legs."

then

"we’ll look at Fernando Gaviria’s data from his stage 5 win at the 2017 Giro d’Italia. Gaviria’s QuickStep Floors teammates controlled the last six kilometres of the stage on the finishing circuit around Messina and even though the Colombian stayed in the wheels, utilising the slipstream, he still had to average 340W (4.86 W/kg) for seven minutes with a one-minute peak effort of 576W (8.23 W/kg). These numbers don’t necessarily jump out at you as enormous, but Gaviria’s main goal in the last few kilometres was to save as much energy as possible and push out as little power as he could. Gaviria’s statistics for the final sprint were:

Time: 20 seconds
Speed: 65 km/h
Max speed: 67.8 km/h
Power: 934W (13.34 W/kg)
Peak Power: 1,339W (19.13 W/kg)"

> People denying that are almost all people that don't really ride.

People that believe your horseshit don't really ride.
>
> Lou is most certainly a good rider but remember that most of his riding is in a dead flat country close to sea level. And he is young and unfamiliar with what gearing used to be.
>
> I changed back to Campy when their brifters became more intuitive to use and I was still young enough to pull huge gears. Does that mean that I was any faster than with the Shimano? No, I was slower and I knew it. And Shimano was winning most of the races.

Because shimano gives away more equipment to teams and the price point for those of us who still have to buy the stuff is better for the same level. More equipment on bikes means more wins.

>
> So let's stop with this macho crap that bigger gears are faster when even TT bikes show otherwise.

No one said bigger gears are faster.

On 2/21/2023 1:51 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 12:28:46 PM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 5:26:32 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le think that acting macho and pretending that they could comfortably ride ridiculous gearing somehow makes them a superior rider and not a boob being taken in by media asses.
>> Who is acting macho here?
>>>
>>> Campagnolo had almost the entire market and Shimano took over in TWO YEARS because they offered the components that would allow gearing that people could actually ride.
>> No Shimano shifted better at a certain moment, came with reliable index shifting and STI. Campy was arrogant and missed the boat . It took a while before they realized that and couldn't catch up again to the market share they once had.
>
> +1
>
> I distinctly remember the Shimano SIS derided as being for people who don't know how to shift. The ratios had nothing to do with it.
>
>>> We just watched as every record in the books has been broken by riders that are spinners. CAMPY GEARING did not allow that. I used Campy at first because the only alternative was some unreliable English and French components.
>> Again they were arrogant.
>
> Gee, that's funny, my first 9 speed group was Chorus Ergo, in about 1993(?) came with a 53/39 and a 12/23. ( I raced Chorus 9 until about 2010, and kept it on my CX rigs until a few years ago). The Shimano Ultegra at the time offered the same gearing. the 10 speed set-ups were even better, you could swap campy and shimano standards with very little impact on shifting - Both offered 11/23 and 11/25 road cassettes. As far as I remember, I don't recall shmano ever offering different gearing until maybe very recently when they started putting MTB gearing on gravel bikes.
>
>> .
>>>
>>> Lou is most certainly a good rider but remember that most of his riding is in a dead flat country close to sea level. And he is young and unfamiliar with what gearing used to be.
>> Young? I riding road bikes for 35-40 years now and started with a 12 speed gearing 52/42 and 12-24. I invite you the climb the Redoute in the Ardennes with that gearing. After that experience I change it to a 26T largest cog to ride the 230 km Luik-Bastenaken-Luik cassic in the same Ardennes. I rode that 4 times.
>>> So let's stop with this macho crap that bigger gears are faster when even TT bikes show otherwise.
>> No one is acting macho and when we grow older we need lower gearing. Nothing to be ashamed off.
>>
>> Lou

The Shimano road derailleurs (short cage) from the 1984 New
Dura Ace on will shift 27t with a 10-tooth front difference.

Same for Campagnolo 9 road. Ten slightly expanded the range
but note Shimano and Campagnolo both offered compatible long
cage rears for years.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 5:26:32 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le think that
>> acting macho and pretending that they could comfortably ride ridiculous
>> gearing somehow makes them a superior rider and not a boob being taken in by media asses.
>
> Who is acting macho here?
>
>>
>> Campagnolo had almost the entire market and Shimano took over in TWO
>> YEARS because they offered the components that would allow gearing that
>> people could actually ride.
>
> No Shimano shifted better at a certain moment, came with reliable index
> shifting and STI. Campy was arrogant and missed the boat . It took a
> while before they realized that and couldn't catch up again to the
> market share they once had.

See also MTB though SRAM has managed so clearly it is possible even now, if
they wanted to but they possibly are too small to put the investment in?

Campy that is.

>
>
>> We just watched as every record in the books has been broken by riders
>> that are spinners. CAMPY GEARING did not allow that. I used Campy at
>> first because the only alternative was some unreliable English and French components.
>
> Again they were arrogant.
>
> .
>>
>> Lou is most certainly a good rider but remember that most of his riding
>> is in a dead flat country close to sea level. And he is young and
>> unfamiliar with what gearing used to be.
>
> Young? I riding road bikes for 35-40 years now and started with a 12
> speed gearing 52/42 and 12-24. I invite you the climb the Redoute in the
> Ardennes with that gearing. After that experience I change it to a 26T
> largest cog to ride the 230 km Luik-Bastenaken-Luik cassic in the same
> Ardennes. I rode that 4 times.
>
>> So let's stop with this macho crap that bigger gears are faster when
>> even TT bikes show otherwise.
>
> No one is acting macho and when we grow older we need lower gearing.
> Nothing to be ashamed off.
>
> Lou
>

Roger Merriman

On 22/2/23 04:28, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 5:26:32 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le think
>> that acting macho and pretending that they could comfortably ride
>> ridiculous gearing somehow makes them a superior rider and not a
>> boob being taken in by media asses.
>
> Who is acting macho here?

He's probably whining about me telling him to use a triple or harden up.

;-)

Last Campagnolo compatible cassette I bought was a Miche 12-23 in 10
speed. Because I'm not in a part of the world where I can get to races,
I decided to ditch the 11 and gain an 18.

Maybe I'm getting old too?

--
JS

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 11:12:34 +1100, James <james.e.steward@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 22/2/23 04:28, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 5:26:32 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le think
>>> that acting macho and pretending that they could comfortably ride
>>> ridiculous gearing somehow makes them a superior rider and not a
>>> boob being taken in by media asses.
>>
>> Who is acting macho here?
>
>He's probably whining about me telling him to use a triple or harden up.
>
>;-)
>
>
>Last Campagnolo compatible cassette I bought was a Miche 12-23 in 10
>speed. Because I'm not in a part of the world where I can get to races,
>I decided to ditch the 11 and gain an 18.
>
>Maybe I'm getting old too?

Well.... :-) He is the bloke that had difficulties fitting a seat
post... so obviously he is a master mechanic :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 4:12:38 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> On 22/2/23 04:28, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 5:26:32 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le think
> >> that acting macho and pretending that they could comfortably ride
> >> ridiculous gearing somehow makes them a superior rider and not a
> >> boob being taken in by media asses.
> >
> > Who is acting macho here?
> He's probably whining about me telling him to use a triple or harden up.
>
> ;-)
>
>
> Last Campagnolo compatible cassette I bought was a Miche 12-23 in 10
> speed. Because I'm not in a part of the world where I can get to races,
> I decided to ditch the 11 and gain an 18.
>
> Maybe I'm getting old too?

I'm riding an 11-32 on a 50-34 compact double. In the last year I've done 45,000 meters of climbing up to 20%+ (the top pf Mt. Diablo from the Parking lot might be 25% but it's only 50 feet long). I'm 78 years old. What have you done? I only say that because of your comments. I'm sure that you, like Lou are fine riders. But it does get a bit tiring to argue about ONE tooth on a cogset as if that made all of the difference in the world.

On Wednesday, February 22, 2023 at 9:12:17 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 4:12:38 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> > On 22/2/23 04:28, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 5:26:32 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >> I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le think
> > >> that acting macho and pretending that they could comfortably ride
> > >> ridiculous gearing somehow makes them a superior rider and not a
> > >> boob being taken in by media asses.
> > >
> > > Who is acting macho here?
> > He's probably whining about me telling him to use a triple or harden up..
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> >
> > Last Campagnolo compatible cassette I bought was a Miche 12-23 in 10
> > speed. Because I'm not in a part of the world where I can get to races,
> > I decided to ditch the 11 and gain an 18.
> >
> > Maybe I'm getting old too?
> I'm riding an 11-32 on a 50-34 compact double. In the last year I've done 45,000 meters of climbing up to 20%+ (the top pf Mt. Diablo from the Parking lot might be 25% but it's only 50 feet long). I'm 78 years old. What have you done? I only say that because of your comments. I'm sure that you, like Lou are fine riders. But it does get a bit tiring to argue about ONE tooth on a cogset as if that made all of the difference in the world.

Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in San Francisco which is 31%

On 23/2/23 04:12, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 4:12:38 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
>> On 22/2/23 04:28, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 5:26:32 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich
>>> wrote:
>>>> I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le
>>>> think that acting macho and pretending that they could
>>>> comfortably ride ridiculous gearing somehow makes them a
>>>> superior rider and not a boob being taken in by media asses.
>>>
>>> Who is acting macho here?
>> He's probably whining about me telling him to use a triple or
>> harden up.
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>> Last Campagnolo compatible cassette I bought was a Miche 12-23 in
>> 10 speed. Because I'm not in a part of the world where I can get to
>> races, I decided to ditch the 11 and gain an 18.
>>
>> Maybe I'm getting old too?
>
> I'm riding an 11-32 on a 50-34 compact double. In the last year I've
> done 45,000 meters of climbing up to 20%+ (the top pf Mt. Diablo from
> the Parking lot might be 25% but it's only 50 feet long). I'm 78
> years old. What have you done? I only say that because of your
> comments. I'm sure that you, like Lou are fine riders. But it does
> get a bit tiring to argue about ONE tooth on a cogset as if that made
> all of the difference in the world.

In 2023 so far.

Activities 21
Distance 1,521.7 km
Elev Gain 21,143 m
Time 55h 8m

In 2022;

Activities 111
Distance 7,110.3 km
Elev Gain 94,241 m
Time 264h 15m

I was a bit slack. Most years I ride in excess of 10,000km.

If I reach 78 and I am still cycling, I hope I can remember that I used
to ride practically everywhere on the road with a 39x23 smallest gear.

I didn't know we were arguing about 1 tooth.

--
JS

On Wednesday, February 22, 2023 at 3:23:38 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> On 23/2/23 04:12, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 4:12:38 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> >> On 22/2/23 04:28, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 5:26:32 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le
> >>>> think that acting macho and pretending that they could
> >>>> comfortably ride ridiculous gearing somehow makes them a
> >>>> superior rider and not a boob being taken in by media asses.
> >>>
> >>> Who is acting macho here?
> >> He's probably whining about me telling him to use a triple or
> >> harden up.
> >>
> >> ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >> Last Campagnolo compatible cassette I bought was a Miche 12-23 in
> >> 10 speed. Because I'm not in a part of the world where I can get to
> >> races, I decided to ditch the 11 and gain an 18.
> >>
> >> Maybe I'm getting old too?
> >
> > I'm riding an 11-32 on a 50-34 compact double. In the last year I've
> > done 45,000 meters of climbing up to 20%+ (the top pf Mt. Diablo from
> > the Parking lot might be 25% but it's only 50 feet long). I'm 78
> > years old. What have you done? I only say that because of your
> > comments. I'm sure that you, like Lou are fine riders. But it does
> > get a bit tiring to argue about ONE tooth on a cogset as if that made
> > all of the difference in the world.
> In 2023 so far.
>
> Activities 21
> Distance 1,521.7 km
> Elev Gain 21,143 m
> Time 55h 8m
>
> In 2022;
>
> Activities 111
> Distance 7,110.3 km
> Elev Gain 94,241 m
> Time 264h 15m
>
> I was a bit slack. Most years I ride in excess of 10,000km.
>
> If I reach 78 and I am still cycling, I hope I can remember that I used
> to ride practically everywhere on the road with a 39x23 smallest gear.
>
> I didn't know we were arguing about 1 tooth.

You must have made a mistake on your 2023 climbing. You're showing more than 1,000 meters of climbing per ride. In the last 12 months I've shown only 83 meters per ride on the average. Unless you're a pro climber you're not doing that in a 39x23. My best year since I recovered my memory was 100,000 meters in a year. And that was on a 34x28

That you're doing a fifth of that in 21 rides would be more than remarkable.. Not to mention that would be about a quarter of what you did last year in a fifth the rides. It is winter here and I have only gotten in 778 km since it is a rainy and cold winter.

But of course it is summer down there and perhaps you do all of your climbing for the year in the early part of the year. I don't expect to get in much climbing this year with all of the hill roads destroyed. And this next 5 days they are expecting another 5" of rain here and 95" of snow in the passes

On Wednesday, February 22, 2023 at 6:23:38 PM UTC-5, James wrote:
> On 23/2/23 04:12, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 4:12:38 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> >> On 22/2/23 04:28, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 5:26:32 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le
> >>>> think that acting macho and pretending that they could
> >>>> comfortably ride ridiculous gearing somehow makes them a
> >>>> superior rider and not a boob being taken in by media asses.
> >>>
> >>> Who is acting macho here?
> >> He's probably whining about me telling him to use a triple or
> >> harden up.
> >>
> >> ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >> Last Campagnolo compatible cassette I bought was a Miche 12-23 in
> >> 10 speed. Because I'm not in a part of the world where I can get to
> >> races, I decided to ditch the 11 and gain an 18.
> >>
> >> Maybe I'm getting old too?
> >
> > I'm riding an 11-32 on a 50-34 compact double. In the last year I've
> > done 45,000 meters of climbing up to 20%+ (the top pf Mt. Diablo from
> > the Parking lot might be 25% but it's only 50 feet long). I'm 78
> > years old. What have you done? I only say that because of your
> > comments. I'm sure that you, like Lou are fine riders. But it does
> > get a bit tiring to argue about ONE tooth on a cogset as if that made
> > all of the difference in the world.
> In 2023 so far.
>
> Activities 21
> Distance 1,521.7 km
> Elev Gain 21,143 m
> Time 55h 8m
>
> In 2022;
>
> Activities 111
> Distance 7,110.3 km
> Elev Gain 94,241 m
> Time 264h 15m
>
> I was a bit slack. Most years I ride in excess of 10,000km.
>
> If I reach 78 and I am still cycling, I hope I can remember that I used
> to ride practically everywhere on the road with a 39x23 smallest gear.
>
> I didn't know we were arguing about 1 tooth.

We weren't really. As usual tommy is confused. The one tooth reference is that older campy stuff wasn't set up to handle more than a 29, but he claims it was 28. AFAICT the discussion was over his claim that Shimano offered drivetrain set-ups that allowed much larger cogs than campy, which I think we've all concluded he;s wrong about.

>
> --
> JS

On Wednesday, February 22, 2023 at 8:01:00 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 22, 2023 at 3:23:38 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> > On 23/2/23 04:12, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 4:12:38 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> > >> On 22/2/23 04:28, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >>> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 5:26:32 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>> I am really having a difficult time understanding why peop0le
> > >>>> think that acting macho and pretending that they could
> > >>>> comfortably ride ridiculous gearing somehow makes them a
> > >>>> superior rider and not a boob being taken in by media asses.
> > >>>
> > >>> Who is acting macho here?
> > >> He's probably whining about me telling him to use a triple or
> > >> harden up.
> > >>
> > >> ;-)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Last Campagnolo compatible cassette I bought was a Miche 12-23 in
> > >> 10 speed. Because I'm not in a part of the world where I can get to
> > >> races, I decided to ditch the 11 and gain an 18.
> > >>
> > >> Maybe I'm getting old too?
> > >
> > > I'm riding an 11-32 on a 50-34 compact double. In the last year I've
> > > done 45,000 meters of climbing up to 20%+ (the top pf Mt. Diablo from
> > > the Parking lot might be 25% but it's only 50 feet long). I'm 78
> > > years old. What have you done? I only say that because of your
> > > comments. I'm sure that you, like Lou are fine riders. But it does
> > > get a bit tiring to argue about ONE tooth on a cogset as if that made
> > > all of the difference in the world.
> > In 2023 so far.
> >
> > Activities 21
> > Distance 1,521.7 km
> > Elev Gain 21,143 m
> > Time 55h 8m
> >
> > In 2022;
> >
> > Activities 111
> > Distance 7,110.3 km
> > Elev Gain 94,241 m
> > Time 264h 15m
> >
> > I was a bit slack. Most years I ride in excess of 10,000km.
> >
> > If I reach 78 and I am still cycling, I hope I can remember that I used
> > to ride practically everywhere on the road with a 39x23 smallest gear.
> >
> > I didn't know we were arguing about 1 tooth.
> You must have made a mistake on your 2023 climbing. You're showing more than 1,000 meters of climbing per ride. In the last 12 months I've shown only 83 meters per ride on the average. Unless you're a pro climber you're not doing that in a 39x23. My best year since I recovered my memory was 100,000 meters in a year. And that was on a 34x28

So.... because tommy can't do it, no one except the pros can.

Here in flat massachusetts Mm commutes are ~32Km one way, with ~ 300m of climbing. If I lived in a hilly area, I don't suppose it would be hard to double that, but that comes out to an average of slightly less than 1% grade. My commuter has a 42x23, I can state unequivocally I use the 23 probably only a few times a year when I"m taking it _really_ easy on the only real substantial climb on the route.

JAmes rides average ~78 KM with ~ 1KM of climbing, or ~1.2% - not hard to do if you live in an area with somewhat more rolling terrain that what I have here.

Hmmmm....only the pros can do that?

Maybe James actually did typo the elevation gain, but 1KM per climbing per 78Km ridden, though nothing to sneeze at, is hardly the stuff of Professionals.

>
> That you're doing a fifth of that in 21 rides would be more than remarkable. Not to mention that would be about a quarter of what you did last year in a fifth the rides.
>
> It is winter here and I have only gotten in 778 km since it is a rainy and cold winter.
>
> But of course it is summer down there and perhaps you do all of your climbing for the year in the early part of the year. I don't expect to get in much climbing this year with all of the hill roads destroyed. And this next 5 days they are expecting another 5" of rain here and 95" of snow in the passes

On 23/2/23 12:00, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 22, 2023 at 3:23:38 PM UTC-8, James wrote:

>> In 2023 so far.
>>
>> Activities 21 Distance 1,521.7 km Elev Gain 21,143 m Time 55h 8m
>>
>> In 2022;
>>
>> Activities 111 Distance 7,110.3 km Elev Gain 94,241 m Time 264h
>> 15m
>>
>> I was a bit slack. Most years I ride in excess of 10,000km.
>>
>> If I reach 78 and I am still cycling, I hope I can remember that I
>> used to ride practically everywhere on the road with a 39x23
>> smallest gear.
>>
>> I didn't know we were arguing about 1 tooth.
>
> You must have made a mistake on your 2023 climbing. You're showing
> more than 1,000 meters of climbing per ride. In the last 12 months
> I've shown only 83 meters per ride on the average. Unless you're a
> pro climber you're not doing that in a 39x23. My best year since I
> recovered my memory was 100,000 meters in a year. And that was on a
> 34x28
>
> That you're doing a fifth of that in 21 rides would be more than
> remarkable. Not to mention that would be about a quarter of what you
> did last year in a fifth the rides. It is winter here and I have only
> gotten in 778 km since it is a rainy and cold winter.
>
> But of course it is summer down there and perhaps you do all of your
> climbing for the year in the early part of the year. I don't expect
> to get in much climbing this year with all of the hill roads
> destroyed. And this next 5 days they are expecting another 5" of rain
> here and 95" of snow in the passes

I'm sorry to disappoint, but I copied and pasted the data direct from my
Strava account statistics. So it's not a transcription error, and
unless Strava has got my elevation gain wrong, it is what I sent.

Since 1 Jan 2023, I have several rides with elevation gain over 1500m,
and some nearing 1900m. Even on today's relatively flat ride of 90 km,
I have an elevation gain of 800m. Almost every ride I go both
directions over a Cat 4 climb that gives me about 150m elevation gain.
So 300m before anything else.

--
JS

On 23/2/23 22:00, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>
> Maybe James actually did typo the elevation gain, but 1KM per
> climbing per 78Km ridden, though nothing to sneeze at, is hardly the
> stuff of Professionals.

Nope. Select, copy, paste from Strava statistics. No typing errors
possible.

GPS errors or Strava errors are possible I suppose.

--
JS

On Thursday, February 23, 2023 at 10:06:01 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> On 23/2/23 12:00, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 22, 2023 at 3:23:38 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
>
> >> In 2023 so far.
> >>
> >> Activities 21 Distance 1,521.7 km Elev Gain 21,143 m Time 55h 8m
> >>
> >> In 2022;
> >>
> >> Activities 111 Distance 7,110.3 km Elev Gain 94,241 m Time 264h
> >> 15m
> >>
> >> I was a bit slack. Most years I ride in excess of 10,000km.
> >>
> >> If I reach 78 and I am still cycling, I hope I can remember that I
> >> used to ride practically everywhere on the road with a 39x23
> >> smallest gear.
> >>
> >> I didn't know we were arguing about 1 tooth.
> >
> > You must have made a mistake on your 2023 climbing. You're showing
> > more than 1,000 meters of climbing per ride. In the last 12 months
> > I've shown only 83 meters per ride on the average. Unless you're a
> > pro climber you're not doing that in a 39x23. My best year since I
> > recovered my memory was 100,000 meters in a year. And that was on a
> > 34x28
> >
> > That you're doing a fifth of that in 21 rides would be more than
> > remarkable. Not to mention that would be about a quarter of what you
> > did last year in a fifth the rides. It is winter here and I have only
> > gotten in 778 km since it is a rainy and cold winter.
> >
> > But of course it is summer down there and perhaps you do all of your
> > climbing for the year in the early part of the year. I don't expect
> > to get in much climbing this year with all of the hill roads
> > destroyed. And this next 5 days they are expecting another 5" of rain
> > here and 95" of snow in the passes
> I'm sorry to disappoint, but I copied and pasted the data direct from my
> Strava account statistics. So it's not a transcription error, and
> unless Strava has got my elevation gain wrong, it is what I sent.
>
> Since 1 Jan 2023, I have several rides with elevation gain over 1500m,
> and some nearing 1900m. Even on today's relatively flat ride of 90 km,
> I have an elevation gain of 800m. Almost every ride I go both
> directions over a Cat 4 climb that gives me about 150m elevation gain.
> So 300m before anything else.

Well, I did surmise that you being in mid-summer that perhaps that is when you do all of your climbing. It just seems too seem to me that 21 rides and an average of 1,-000 meters per ride makes you the king kong of climbers.

On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 1:10:16 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
> On 23/2/23 22:00, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> > Maybe James actually did typo the elevation gain, but 1KM per
> > climbing per 78Km ridden, though nothing to sneeze at, is hardly the
> > stuff of Professionals.
> Nope. Select, copy, paste from Strava statistics. No typing errors
> possible.
>

That's what I suspected based on the formatting. As I noted, nothing to sneeze at!

> GPS errors or Strava errors are possible I suppose.

Not with any consistency. What you'll see is a bizarre blip here and there where you seem to teleport several thousand feet in a matter of seconds. Unless of course your garmin reports a top speed of 87 mph on your bicycle, which must be right.....

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:24:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in San Francisco which is 31%

31.5%. However, it's not the steepest street in San Francisco:
"The Real Top 10 List of Steepest Streets in San Francisco"
<https://www.7x7.com/the-real-top-10-list-of-steepest-streets-in-san-francisco-1786501295.html>
According to the "real" list, there are seven SF streets that are
steeper than Filbert St.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:24:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in
>> San Francisco which is 31%
>
> 31.5%. However, it's not the steepest street in San Francisco:
> "The Real Top 10 List of Steepest Streets in San Francisco"
> <https://www.7x7.com/the-real-top-10-list-of-steepest-streets-in-san-francisco-1786501295.html>
> According to the "real" list, there are seven SF streets that are
> steeper than Filbert St.
>
Not sure I’d trust the map data to be that accurate. Probably need to
measure it on site if one wanted to be sure, and geeky enough.

In uk maybe world apparently the present steepest (yet found) and measured
is Bamford Clough which is a old track going vertical down the hill, that
was paved a few years ago.

https://blog.veloviewer.com/bamford-clough-the-steepest-road-in-the-uk-world/

While average grade is relatively easy to correlate max grade less so and
if one wants to be sure need a site visit!

I have visited Bamford though was closed at time, though even more fun was
that Snake pass was closed to cars so in many ways was more fun!

I’ll probably return at some point possibly this year to turn a pedal up
it!

Roger Merriman

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 3:21:40 AM UTC-8, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:24:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in
> >> San Francisco which is 31%
> >
> > 31.5%. However, it's not the steepest street in San Francisco:
> > "The Real Top 10 List of Steepest Streets in San Francisco"
> > <https://www.7x7.com/the-real-top-10-list-of-steepest-streets-in-san-francisco-1786501295.html>
> > According to the "real" list, there are seven SF streets that are
> > steeper than Filbert St.
> >
> Not sure I’d trust the map data to be that accurate. Probably need to
> measure it on site if one wanted to be sure, and geeky enough.
>
> In uk maybe world apparently the present steepest (yet found) and measured
> is Bamford Clough which is a old track going vertical down the hill, that
> was paved a few years ago.
>
> https://blog.veloviewer.com/bamford-clough-the-steepest-road-in-the-uk-world/
>
>
> While average grade is relatively easy to correlate max grade less so and
> if one wants to be sure need a site visit!
>
> I have visited Bamford though was closed at time, though even more fun was
> that Snake pass was closed to cars so in many ways was more fun!
>
> I’ll probably return at some point possibly this year to turn a pedal up
> it!
>
> Roger Merriman

It is no surprise that the man who has never ridden bicycles wants to comment about riding bicycles. Just like the man who didn't work as an engineer wants to inform everyone about engineering. Liebermann has made a living out of repairing printers like any other te4chnician. My Federal Investigator friend was a better engineer. You would think he would be ashamed of fake expertise but shame isn't in his vocabulary,

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 11:11:51 AM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Just like the man who didn't work as an engineer wants to inform everyone about engineering.

Maybe you should stop doing it...

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 6:21:40 AM UTC-5, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:24:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in
> >> San Francisco which is 31%
> >
> > 31.5%. However, it's not the steepest street in San Francisco:
> > "The Real Top 10 List of Steepest Streets in San Francisco"
> > <https://www.7x7.com/the-real-top-10-list-of-steepest-streets-in-san-francisco-1786501295.html>
> > According to the "real" list, there are seven SF streets that are
> > steeper than Filbert St.
> >
> Not sure I’d trust the map data to be that accurate. Probably need to
> measure it on site if one wanted to be sure, and geeky enough.
>
> In uk maybe world apparently the present steepest (yet found) and measured
> is Bamford Clough which is a old track going vertical down the hill, that
> was paved a few years ago.
>
> https://blog.veloviewer.com/bamford-clough-the-steepest-road-in-the-uk-world/
>
>
> While average grade is relatively easy to correlate max grade less so and
> if one wants to be sure need a site visit!
>
> I have visited Bamford though was closed at time, though even more fun was
> that Snake pass was closed to cars so in many ways was more fun!
>
> I’ll probably return at some point possibly this year to turn a pedal up
> it!

In Pittsburgh there's Canton Avenue.

https://uncoveringpa.com/canton-avenue-pittsburgh

No, I haven't ridden it.

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 11:11:51 AM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> It is no surprise that the man who has never ridden bicycles wants to comment about riding bicycles. Just like the man who didn't work as an engineer wants to inform everyone about engineering. Liebermann has made a living out of repairing printers like any other te4chnician. My Federal Investigator friend was a better engineer. You would think he would be ashamed of fake expertise but shame isn't in his vocabulary,

Wow - a message from our high school dropout, who claims to have been an engineer! :-)

- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 6:21:40 AM UTC-5, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:24:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in
>>>> San Francisco which is 31%
>>>
>>> 31.5%. However, it's not the steepest street in San Francisco:
>>> "The Real Top 10 List of Steepest Streets in San Francisco"
>>> <https://www.7x7.com/the-real-top-10-list-of-steepest-streets-in-san-francisco-1786501295.html>
>>>
>>> According to the "real" list, there are seven SF streets that are
>>> steeper than Filbert St.
>>>
>> Not sure I’d trust the map data to be that accurate. Probably need to
>> measure it on site if one wanted to be sure, and geeky enough.
>>
>> In uk maybe world apparently the present steepest (yet found) and measured
>> is Bamford Clough which is a old track going vertical down the hill, that
>> was paved a few years ago.
>>
>> https://blog.veloviewer.com/bamford-clough-the-steepest-road-in-the-uk-world/
>>
>>
>> While average grade is relatively easy to correlate max grade less so and
>> if one wants to be sure need a site visit!
>>
>> I have visited Bamford though was closed at time, though even more fun was
>> that Snake pass was closed to cars so in many ways was more fun!
>>
>> I’ll probably return at some point possibly this year to turn a pedal up
>> it!
>
> In Pittsburgh there's Canton Avenue.
>
> https://uncoveringpa.com/canton-avenue-pittsburgh
>
> No, I haven't ridden it.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
I’d be unable to resist!

I’d ignore the doom re cars going down etc, folks drive the motor homes
both up local 30% short brutal climbs or stuff further a field.

And local ones had quarry lorries!

Roger Merrriman