On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 11:05:18 AM UTC-8, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 6:21:40 AM UTC-5, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:24:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in
> >>>> San Francisco which is 31%
> >>>
> >>> 31.5%. However, it's not the steepest street in San Francisco:
> >>> "The Real Top 10 List of Steepest Streets in San Francisco"
> >>> <https://www.7x7.com/the-real-top-10-list-of-steepest-streets-in-san-francisco-1786501295.html>
> >>>
> >>> According to the "real" list, there are seven SF streets that are
> >>> steeper than Filbert St.
> >>>
> >> Not sure I’d trust the map data to be that accurate. Probably need to
> >> measure it on site if one wanted to be sure, and geeky enough.
> >>
> >> In uk maybe world apparently the present steepest (yet found) and measured
> >> is Bamford Clough which is a old track going vertical down the hill, that
> >> was paved a few years ago.
> >>
> >> https://blog.veloviewer.com/bamford-clough-the-steepest-road-in-the-uk-world/
> >>
> >>
> >> While average grade is relatively easy to correlate max grade less so and
> >> if one wants to be sure need a site visit!
> >>
> >> I have visited Bamford though was closed at time, though even more fun was
> >> that Snake pass was closed to cars so in many ways was more fun!
> >>
> >> I’ll probably return at some point possibly this year to turn a pedal up
> >> it!
> >
> > In Pittsburgh there's Canton Avenue.
> >
> > https://uncoveringpa.com/canton-avenue-pittsburgh
> >
> > No, I haven't ridden it.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> I’d be unable to resist!
>
> I’d ignore the doom re cars going down etc, folks drive the motor homes
> both up local 30% short brutal climbs or stuff further a field.
>
> And local ones had quarry lorries!
>
> Roger Merrriman
I think it is in Pennsylvania where they have a yearly ride up all of these super steep bumps. They aren't very high but after doing a couple of them I don't know how they have the strength to continue.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 11:05:18 AM UTC-8, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 6:21:40 AM UTC-5, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:24:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in
>>>>>> San Francisco which is 31%
>>>>>
>>>>> 31.5%. However, it's not the steepest street in San Francisco:
>>>>> "The Real Top 10 List of Steepest Streets in San Francisco"
>>>>> <https://www.7x7.com/the-real-top-10-list-of-steepest-streets-in-san-francisco-1786501295.html>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the "real" list, there are seven SF streets that are
>>>>> steeper than Filbert St.
>>>>>
>>>> Not sure I’d trust the map data to be that accurate. Probably need to
>>>> measure it on site if one wanted to be sure, and geeky enough.
>>>>
>>>> In uk maybe world apparently the present steepest (yet found) and measured
>>>> is Bamford Clough which is a old track going vertical down the hill, that
>>>> was paved a few years ago.
>>>>
>>>> https://blog.veloviewer.com/bamford-clough-the-steepest-road-in-the-uk-world/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> While average grade is relatively easy to correlate max grade less so and
>>>> if one wants to be sure need a site visit!
>>>>
>>>> I have visited Bamford though was closed at time, though even more fun was
>>>> that Snake pass was closed to cars so in many ways was more fun!
>>>>
>>>> I’ll probably return at some point possibly this year to turn a pedal up
>>>> it!
>>>
>>> In Pittsburgh there's Canton Avenue.
>>>
>>> https://uncoveringpa.com/canton-avenue-pittsburgh
>>>
>>> No, I haven't ridden it.
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>> I’d be unable to resist!
>>
>> I’d ignore the doom re cars going down etc, folks drive the motor homes
>> both up local 30% short brutal climbs or stuff further a field.
>>
>> And local ones had quarry lorries!
>>
>> Roger Merrriman
> I think it is in Pennsylvania where they have a yearly ride up all of
> these super steep bumps. They aren't very high but after doing a couple
> of them I don't know how they have the strength to continue.
>
They are certainly fairly full on work, much more full on than your longer
switch back type that is a longer steadier effort.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 11:21:37 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:24:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in
>>> San Francisco which is 31%
>>
>> 31.5%. However, it's not the steepest street in San Francisco:
>> "The Real Top 10 List of Steepest Streets in San Francisco"
>> <https://www.7x7.com/the-real-top-10-list-of-steepest-streets-in-san-francisco-1786501295.html>
>> According to the "real" list, there are seven SF streets that are
>> steeper than Filbert St.
>Not sure I’d trust the map data to be that accurate. Probably need to
>measure it on site if one wanted to be sure, and geeky enough.
>
>In uk maybe world apparently the present steepest (yet found) and measured
>is Bamford Clough which is a old track going vertical down the hill, that
>was paved a few years ago.
>
>https://blog.veloviewer.com/bamford-clough-the-steepest-road-in-the-uk-world/

Thanks for the article reference. I was looking for a description of
how the road slope is measured and/or calculated. The title of the
article suggests that it will describe the method of measurement. The
article offers some possible methods, but does not describe how the
actual measurements and calculations were made. (See section under
"Max gradients in VeloViewer"). Worse, the article seems mostly
interested in the maximum slope, than the average slope (because
racers seem more interested in the maximum).

>While average grade is relatively easy to correlate max grade less so and
>if one wants to be sure need a site visit!

That will probably increase the uncertainty. For example, if someone
made multiple passes over the roadway in question, and produced
multiple average slope values, they would likely throw out any
inconvenient numbers that might be measurement errors, and average the
remaining numbers. Extra credit for calculating the standard
deviation of each pass or measuring the slope going downhill. Throw
in differences in travel between riding on various parts of the road
(left lane, center divider, right lane), and chaos will be a
certainty.

>I have visited Bamford though was closed at time, though even more fun was
>that Snake pass was closed to cars so in many ways was more fun!
>
>I’ll probably return at some point possibly this year to turn a pedal up
>it!
>
>Roger Merriman

Using segmented distances traveled and elevation changes for
calculating slope is not as horrible as it might seem. For fairly
short distance, such as tens of meters, the relative (not absolute)
altitudes from the topo map elevations are quite accurate. Same with
a barometric altimeter. It's only when segment distances become huge,
that map and barometric altitude measurements loose accuracy.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2/28/2023 7:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 11:21:37 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:24:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in
>>>> San Francisco which is 31%
>>>
>>> 31.5%. However, it's not the steepest street in San Francisco:
>>> "The Real Top 10 List of Steepest Streets in San Francisco"
>>> <https://www.7x7.com/the-real-top-10-list-of-steepest-streets-in-san-francisco-1786501295.html>
>>> According to the "real" list, there are seven SF streets that are
>>> steeper than Filbert St.
>
>> Not sure I’d trust the map data to be that accurate. Probably need to
>> measure it on site if one wanted to be sure, and geeky enough.
>>
>> In uk maybe world apparently the present steepest (yet found) and measured
>> is Bamford Clough which is a old track going vertical down the hill, that
>> was paved a few years ago.
>>
>> https://blog.veloviewer.com/bamford-clough-the-steepest-road-in-the-uk-world/
>
> Thanks for the article reference. I was looking for a description of
> how the road slope is measured and/or calculated. The title of the
> article suggests that it will describe the method of measurement. The
> article offers some possible methods, but does not describe how the
> actual measurements and calculations were made. (See section under
> "Max gradients in VeloViewer"). Worse, the article seems mostly
> interested in the maximum slope, than the average slope (because
> racers seem more interested in the maximum).
>
>> While average grade is relatively easy to correlate max grade less so and
>> if one wants to be sure need a site visit!
>
> That will probably increase the uncertainty. For example, if someone
> made multiple passes over the roadway in question, and produced
> multiple average slope values, they would likely throw out any
> inconvenient numbers that might be measurement errors, and average the
> remaining numbers. Extra credit for calculating the standard
> deviation of each pass or measuring the slope going downhill. Throw
> in differences in travel between riding on various parts of the road
> (left lane, center divider, right lane), and chaos will be a
> certainty.
>
>> I have visited Bamford though was closed at time, though even more fun was
>> that Snake pass was closed to cars so in many ways was more fun!
>>
>> I’ll probably return at some point possibly this year to turn a pedal up
>> it!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Using segmented distances traveled and elevation changes for
> calculating slope is not as horrible as it might seem. For fairly
> short distance, such as tens of meters, the relative (not absolute)
> altitudes from the topo map elevations are quite accurate. Same with
> a barometric altimeter. It's only when segment distances become huge,
> that map and barometric altitude measurements loose accuracy.

I don't think there's a need for multiple runs, standard deviations and
other data processing sophistication.

Peak slope could be found well enough by inspection. I don't think it
would be difficult to try all potential steep points within a cyclist's
normal riding path. A bike fitted with a level and a couple rulers
should be capable of giving suitable accuracy.

For average gradient, I think the biggest problem might be deciding
where the hill begins and ends. IME most hills end sort of gradually,
losing slope bit by bit. What part of that gradual end is the actual top
of the hill's steep part?

I think if you can decide that, a cyclometer for distance traveled plus
a barometric altimeter for change in height will be adequate for any
practical purpose. We don't need Professional Surveyor accuracy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 11:21:37 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:24:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in
>>>> San Francisco which is 31%
>>>
>>> 31.5%. However, it's not the steepest street in San Francisco:
>>> "The Real Top 10 List of Steepest Streets in San Francisco"
>>> <https://www.7x7.com/the-real-top-10-list-of-steepest-streets-in-san-francisco-1786501295.html>
>>> According to the "real" list, there are seven SF streets that are
>>> steeper than Filbert St.
>
>> Not sure I’d trust the map data to be that accurate. Probably need to
>> measure it on site if one wanted to be sure, and geeky enough.
>>
>> In uk maybe world apparently the present steepest (yet found) and measured
>> is Bamford Clough which is a old track going vertical down the hill, that
>> was paved a few years ago.
>>
>> https://blog.veloviewer.com/bamford-clough-the-steepest-road-in-the-uk-world/
>
> Thanks for the article reference. I was looking for a description of
> how the road slope is measured and/or calculated. The title of the
> article suggests that it will describe the method of measurement. The
> article offers some possible methods, but does not describe how the
> actual measurements and calculations were made. (See section under
> "Max gradients in VeloViewer"). Worse, the article seems mostly
> interested in the maximum slope, than the average slope (because
> racers seem more interested in the maximum).

For that sort climb I’d say it’s probably the most important metric ie
short and very steep, longer climb’s average is king!
>
>> While average grade is relatively easy to correlate max grade less so and
>> if one wants to be sure need a site visit!
>
> That will probably increase the uncertainty. For example, if someone
> made multiple passes over the roadway in question, and produced
> multiple average slope values, they would likely throw out any
> inconvenient numbers that might be measurement errors, and average the
> remaining numbers. Extra credit for calculating the standard
> deviation of each pass or measuring the slope going downhill. Throw
> in differences in travel between riding on various parts of the road
> (left lane, center divider, right lane), and chaos will be a
> certainty.
>
>> I have visited Bamford though was closed at time, though even more fun was
>> that Snake pass was closed to cars so in many ways was more fun!
>>
>> I’ll probably return at some point possibly this year to turn a pedal up
>> it!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Using segmented distances traveled and elevation changes for
> calculating slope is not as horrible as it might seem. For fairly
> short distance, such as tens of meters, the relative (not absolute)
> altitudes from the topo map elevations are quite accurate. Same with
> a barometric altimeter. It's only when segment distances become huge,
> that map and barometric altitude measurements loose accuracy.
>
Certainly using Strava and veloviewer you can check multiple segments on
same hill which will give ballpark but differ results enough to suggest
that it’s more of suggestions than pure data.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 2/28/2023 7:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 11:21:37 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:24:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in
>>>>> San Francisco which is 31%
>>>>
>>>> 31.5%. However, it's not the steepest street in San Francisco:
>>>> "The Real Top 10 List of Steepest Streets in San Francisco"
>>>> <https://www.7x7.com/the-real-top-10-list-of-steepest-streets-in-san-francisco-1786501295.html>
>>>> According to the "real" list, there are seven SF streets that are
>>>> steeper than Filbert St.
>>
>>> Not sure I’d trust the map data to be that accurate. Probably need to
>>> measure it on site if one wanted to be sure, and geeky enough.
>>>
>>> In uk maybe world apparently the present steepest (yet found) and measured
>>> is Bamford Clough which is a old track going vertical down the hill, that
>>> was paved a few years ago.
>>>
>>> https://blog.veloviewer.com/bamford-clough-the-steepest-road-in-the-uk-world/
>>
>> Thanks for the article reference. I was looking for a description of
>> how the road slope is measured and/or calculated. The title of the
>> article suggests that it will describe the method of measurement. The
>> article offers some possible methods, but does not describe how the
>> actual measurements and calculations were made. (See section under
>> "Max gradients in VeloViewer"). Worse, the article seems mostly
>> interested in the maximum slope, than the average slope (because
>> racers seem more interested in the maximum).
>>
>>> While average grade is relatively easy to correlate max grade less so and
>>> if one wants to be sure need a site visit!
>>
>> That will probably increase the uncertainty. For example, if someone
>> made multiple passes over the roadway in question, and produced
>> multiple average slope values, they would likely throw out any
>> inconvenient numbers that might be measurement errors, and average the
>> remaining numbers. Extra credit for calculating the standard
>> deviation of each pass or measuring the slope going downhill. Throw
>> in differences in travel between riding on various parts of the road
>> (left lane, center divider, right lane), and chaos will be a
>> certainty.
>>
>>> I have visited Bamford though was closed at time, though even more fun was
>>> that Snake pass was closed to cars so in many ways was more fun!
>>>
>>> I’ll probably return at some point possibly this year to turn a pedal up
>>> it!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Using segmented distances traveled and elevation changes for
>> calculating slope is not as horrible as it might seem. For fairly
>> short distance, such as tens of meters, the relative (not absolute)
>> altitudes from the topo map elevations are quite accurate. Same with
>> a barometric altimeter. It's only when segment distances become huge,
>> that map and barometric altitude measurements loose accuracy.
>
> I don't think there's a need for multiple runs, standard deviations and
> other data processing sophistication.
>
> Peak slope could be found well enough by inspection. I don't think it
> would be difficult to try all potential steep points within a cyclist's
> normal riding path. A bike fitted with a level and a couple rulers
> should be capable of giving suitable accuracy.
>
> For average gradient, I think the biggest problem might be deciding
> where the hill begins and ends. IME most hills end sort of gradually,
> losing slope bit by bit. What part of that gradual end is the actual top
> of the hill's steep part?
>
This some climbs it’s debatable where it ends and starts. One of the
nasties nr my folks I’d and locals would generally take from what is a
junction plus where a phone box used to be as the start, and it’s where the
hill becomes narrow and very steep, to after you clear the top and it opens
out and your at edge of next village.

But the cycling journalist etc, in that blog post would take it from the
bottom to well not top but Center of village ie pub! Which doubles its
length to a mile @13% which while steep does rather misses the point of
that particular climb ie it’s steepness and relative shortness ie half a
mile at 17% gives a truer indication of it!

> I think if you can decide that, a cyclometer for distance traveled plus
> a barometric altimeter for change in height will be adequate for any
> practical purpose. We don't need Professional Surveyor accuracy.
>
Roger Merriman

Am 24.02.2023 um 21:13 schrieb funkma...@hotmail.com:
> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 1:10:16 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
>> On 23/2/23 22:00, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Maybe James actually did typo the elevation gain, but 1KM per
>>> climbing per 78Km ridden, though nothing to sneeze at, is hardly
>>> the stuff of Professionals.
>> Nope. Select, copy, paste from Strava statistics. No typing errors
>> possible.
>>
>
> That's what I suspected based on the formatting. As I noted, nothing
> to sneeze at!
>
>> GPS errors or Strava errors are possible I suppose.
>
> Not with any consistency. What you'll see is a bizarre blip here and
> there where you seem to teleport several thousand feet in a matter
> of seconds. Unless of course your garmin reports a top speed of 87
> mph on your bicycle, which must be right.....
>
GPS errors on Strava are not possible for road cycling because Strava
replaces the altitude data from GPS by altitude data
from map information as part of their error correction routines.

All my rides (and also hikes) show massively more altitude gains in
their original version on Garmin and on Komoot than on Strava (in the
past, Strave always placed a fake hill into my commute where the bike
trail was going along the foot of a hill, giving an altitude gain of 49m
on 12km; the rides since 2020 show an altitude gain of 20m on 12km).

Rolf

On Tue, 28 Feb 2023 22:08:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/28/2023 7:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 11:21:37 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:24:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in
>>>>> San Francisco which is 31%
>>>>
>>>> 31.5%. However, it's not the steepest street in San Francisco:
>>>> "The Real Top 10 List of Steepest Streets in San Francisco"
>>>> <https://www.7x7.com/the-real-top-10-list-of-steepest-streets-in-san-francisco-1786501295.html>
>>>> According to the "real" list, there are seven SF streets that are
>>>> steeper than Filbert St.
>>
>>> Not sure I’d trust the map data to be that accurate. Probably need to
>>> measure it on site if one wanted to be sure, and geeky enough.
>>>
>>> In uk maybe world apparently the present steepest (yet found) and measured
>>> is Bamford Clough which is a old track going vertical down the hill, that
>>> was paved a few years ago.
>>>
>>> https://blog.veloviewer.com/bamford-clough-the-steepest-road-in-the-uk-world/
>>
>> Thanks for the article reference. I was looking for a description of
>> how the road slope is measured and/or calculated. The title of the
>> article suggests that it will describe the method of measurement. The
>> article offers some possible methods, but does not describe how the
>> actual measurements and calculations were made. (See section under
>> "Max gradients in VeloViewer"). Worse, the article seems mostly
>> interested in the maximum slope, than the average slope (because
>> racers seem more interested in the maximum).
>>
>>> While average grade is relatively easy to correlate max grade less so and
>>> if one wants to be sure need a site visit!
>>
>> That will probably increase the uncertainty. For example, if someone
>> made multiple passes over the roadway in question, and produced
>> multiple average slope values, they would likely throw out any
>> inconvenient numbers that might be measurement errors, and average the
>> remaining numbers. Extra credit for calculating the standard
>> deviation of each pass or measuring the slope going downhill. Throw
>> in differences in travel between riding on various parts of the road
>> (left lane, center divider, right lane), and chaos will be a
>> certainty.
>>
>>> I have visited Bamford though was closed at time, though even more fun was
>>> that Snake pass was closed to cars so in many ways was more fun!
>>>
>>> I’ll probably return at some point possibly this year to turn a pedal up
>>> it!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Using segmented distances traveled and elevation changes for
>> calculating slope is not as horrible as it might seem. For fairly
>> short distance, such as tens of meters, the relative (not absolute)
>> altitudes from the topo map elevations are quite accurate. Same with
>> a barometric altimeter. It's only when segment distances become huge,
>> that map and barometric altitude measurements loose accuracy.

>I don't think there's a need for multiple runs, standard deviations and
>other data processing sophistication.

Sophistication wouldn't be necessary if there was a standardized way
of measuring slope or gradient. I couldn't find much on how it should
be calculated. Strava uses the riders GPS data and their elevation
database to calculate elevation and slope:
<https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/articles/8471952550669-Route-Terrain>
That's probably good enough if the GPS locations are tweaked to follow
paved roads, but might be problematic on dirt roads, under tree cover,
under bridges, in urban canyons, and other GPS hostile environments.
Highly accurate LIDAR based topography databases and maps are common
enough:
<https://portal.opentopography.org/datasets>
<https://coast.noaa.gov/dataviewer/#/lidar/search/>
Basically, the accuracy of a slope calculation is dependent on the GPS
location accuracy, the elevation database accuracy, and the method
used to convert a potentially large number of 3D positions into a
single 2.5 digit elevation (in degrees) figure. 2.5 digits is 1 part
in 200 or 0.5% accuracy, which is science fiction, and is why I'm
interested in how the numbers were generated.

>Peak slope could be found well enough by inspection.

True. Just ride with a recording inclinometer and a data logger.
Assume that the slope is constantly increasing or decreasing, not
going up and down. Ignore the bumps and potholes, save the largest
number as peak slope and throw away what's left.

>I don't think it
>would be difficult to try all potential steep points within a cyclist's
>normal riding path. A bike fitted with a level and a couple rulers
>should be capable of giving suitable accuracy.

What would you consider suitable accuracy? The table I linked showed
0.5% accuracy (0.5 degrees out of 2.5 digits). I would think that
would be very difficult to be repeatable much less accurate.

>For average gradient, I think the biggest problem might be deciding
>where the hill begins and ends. IME most hills end sort of gradually,
>losing slope bit by bit. What part of that gradual end is the actual top
>of the hill's steep part?

Agreed. Where to measure is important. Once that's decided, how to
measure is the next important problem. After that, how to calculate
the slope, followed by how to present the data. That's how seemingly
simple things quickly become complexicated. Is there perhaps a
standard for how to measure a hill? I couldn't find anything.

>I think if you can decide that, a cyclometer for distance traveled plus
>a barometric altimeter for change in height will be adequate for any
>practical purpose. We don't need Professional Surveyor accuracy.

Strava already does that. I wonder if there is a record of a Strava
ride up Filbert St in San Francisco. Yep:
<https://www.strava.com/segments/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keywords=Filbert+St+San+Francisco%2C+CA&filter_type=Ride&min-cat=0&max-cat=5&terrain=all>
There are quite a few more entries for runners than cyclists:
<https://www.strava.com/segments/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keywords=Filbert+St+San+Francisco%2C+CA&filter_type=Run&min-cat=0&max-cat=5&terrain=all>
Notice that the range of "grade" numbers are much less than 31.5
degrees and vary radically.

I have a few guesses as to what went wrong, but don't have the time to
investigate today.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 09:25:04 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
>Strava already does that. I wonder if there is a record of a Strava
>ride up Filbert St in San Francisco. Yep:
><https://www.strava.com/segments/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keywords=Filbert+St+San+Francisco%2C+CA&filter_type=Ride&min-cat=0&max-cat=5&terrain=all>
>There are quite a few more entries for runners than cyclists:
><https://www.strava.com/segments/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keywords=Filbert+St+San+Francisco%2C+CA&filter_type=Run&min-cat=0&max-cat=5&terrain=all>
>Notice that the range of "grade" numbers are much less than 31.5
>degrees and vary radically.
>
>I have a few guesses as to what went wrong, but don't have the time to
>investigate today.

I couldn't resist. I'm already late, so a little more late shouldn't
be a problem.

Here's a typical ride up Filbert St:
<https://www.strava.com/segments/5990039>
The slope is fairly constant, except at the end points. The initial
slope at the bottom of the hill shows 35.0%. Strava calculates the
average grade at 26.3%. It would seem that the "official" grade is
actually the maximum grade.

If I hop over a low wall or curb, can I claim that the road is 100.0%
slope?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 3/1/2023 12:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2023 22:08:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Peak slope could be found well enough by inspection.
>
> True. Just ride with a recording inclinometer and a data logger.
> Assume that the slope is constantly increasing or decreasing, not
> going up and down. Ignore the bumps and potholes, save the largest
> number as peak slope and throw away what's left.

You tend toward much more sophistication or complication than I do.

One extended family member lives at the top of a very impressive, steep
hill. I've never biked there and never attempted a serious gradient
measurement, but I figured I'd just walk a bike up the hill watching a
bubble level and take a more precise reading at what seemed to be the
steepest spot.

>> I don't think it
>> would be difficult to try all potential steep points within a cyclist's
>> normal riding path. A bike fitted with a level and a couple rulers
>> should be capable of giving suitable accuracy.
>
> What would you consider suitable accuracy? The table I linked showed
> 0.5% accuracy (0.5 degrees out of 2.5 digits). I would think that
> would be very difficult to be repeatable much less accurate.

That raises a related question: What's the purpose of the measurement
exercise? What is anybody going to do with peak steepness data?

The most practical application I can think of is for describing a
planned group ride. Saying "Some hills will be as steep as X%" might
keep someone from getting in over their head, so to speak. But that
needs only very approximate accuracy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/1/2023 12:33 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 09:25:04 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>> Strava already does that. I wonder if there is a record of a Strava
>> ride up Filbert St in San Francisco. Yep:
>> <https://www.strava.com/segments/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keywords=Filbert+St+San+Francisco%2C+CA&filter_type=Ride&min-cat=0&max-cat=5&terrain=all>
>> There are quite a few more entries for runners than cyclists:
>> <https://www.strava.com/segments/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keywords=Filbert+St+San+Francisco%2C+CA&filter_type=Run&min-cat=0&max-cat=5&terrain=all>
>> Notice that the range of "grade" numbers are much less than 31.5
>> degrees and vary radically.
>>
>> I have a few guesses as to what went wrong, but don't have the time to
>> investigate today.
>
> I couldn't resist. I'm already late, so a little more late shouldn't
> be a problem.
>
> Here's a typical ride up Filbert St:
> <https://www.strava.com/segments/5990039>
> The slope is fairly constant, except at the end points. The initial
> slope at the bottom of the hill shows 35.0%. Strava calculates the
> average grade at 26.3%. It would seem that the "official" grade is
> actually the maximum grade.
>
> If I hop over a low wall or curb, can I claim that the road is 100.0%
> slope?

Certainly you'd base your measurement on the wheelbase of a typical
bike. Even putting the front wheel on a curb doesn't yield 100%.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 4:59:49 AM UTC-8, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 11:21:37 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:24:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Just 8 years ago when I was still riding good I did Filbert street in
> >>>> San Francisco which is 31%
> >>>
> >>> 31.5%. However, it's not the steepest street in San Francisco:
> >>> "The Real Top 10 List of Steepest Streets in San Francisco"
> >>> <https://www.7x7.com/the-real-top-10-list-of-steepest-streets-in-san-francisco-1786501295.html>
> >>> According to the "real" list, there are seven SF streets that are
> >>> steeper than Filbert St.
> >
> >> Not sure I’d trust the map data to be that accurate. Probably need to
> >> measure it on site if one wanted to be sure, and geeky enough.
> >>
> >> In uk maybe world apparently the present steepest (yet found) and measured
> >> is Bamford Clough which is a old track going vertical down the hill, that
> >> was paved a few years ago.
> >>
> >> https://blog.veloviewer.com/bamford-clough-the-steepest-road-in-the-uk-world/
> >
> > Thanks for the article reference. I was looking for a description of
> > how the road slope is measured and/or calculated. The title of the
> > article suggests that it will describe the method of measurement. The
> > article offers some possible methods, but does not describe how the
> > actual measurements and calculations were made. (See section under
> > "Max gradients in VeloViewer"). Worse, the article seems mostly
> > interested in the maximum slope, than the average slope (because
> > racers seem more interested in the maximum).
> For that sort climb I’d say it’s probably the most important metric ie
> short and very steep, longer climb’s average is king!
> >
> >> While average grade is relatively easy to correlate max grade less so and
> >> if one wants to be sure need a site visit!
> >
> > That will probably increase the uncertainty. For example, if someone
> > made multiple passes over the roadway in question, and produced
> > multiple average slope values, they would likely throw out any
> > inconvenient numbers that might be measurement errors, and average the
> > remaining numbers. Extra credit for calculating the standard
> > deviation of each pass or measuring the slope going downhill. Throw
> > in differences in travel between riding on various parts of the road
> > (left lane, center divider, right lane), and chaos will be a
> > certainty.
> >
> >> I have visited Bamford though was closed at time, though even more fun was
> >> that Snake pass was closed to cars so in many ways was more fun!
> >>
> >> I’ll probably return at some point possibly this year to turn a pedal up
> >> it!
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >
> > Using segmented distances traveled and elevation changes for
> > calculating slope is not as horrible as it might seem. For fairly
> > short distance, such as tens of meters, the relative (not absolute)
> > altitudes from the topo map elevations are quite accurate. Same with
> > a barometric altimeter. It's only when segment distances become huge,
> > that map and barometric altitude measurements loose accuracy.
> >
> Certainly using Strava and veloviewer you can check multiple segments on
> same hill which will give ballpark but differ results enough to suggest
> that it’s more of suggestions than pure data.
>
> Roger Merriman
As usual, the man who loves to talk the most about bicycles doesn't ride and probably never did considering where he lives. The man with the piss bag tied to hos leg who has never climbed a hill in his life on anything that didn't have a gas pedal tells us that he could tell the difference between a 31% grade and a 31,5% grade.

On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 12:53:13 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/1/2023 12:33 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> If I hop over a low wall or curb, can I claim that the road is 100.0%
>> slope?

>Certainly you'd base your measurement on the wheelbase of a typical
>bike. Even putting the front wheel on a curb doesn't yield 100%.

True. I erred. That's what happens when I'm in a hurry, not
thinking, or both.

If I bunny hop over a large log, the top tube would be about +45
degrees on the approach. Is that good for a 45 degree slope? I guess
both wheels need to be in contact with the road for this to count as a
45 degree slope.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/1/2023 12:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Feb 2023 22:08:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Peak slope could be found well enough by inspection.
>>
>> True. Just ride with a recording inclinometer and a data logger.
>> Assume that the slope is constantly increasing or decreasing, not
>> going up and down. Ignore the bumps and potholes, save the largest
>> number as peak slope and throw away what's left.
>
> You tend toward much more sophistication or complication than I do.
>
> One extended family member lives at the top of a very impressive, steep
> hill. I've never biked there and never attempted a serious gradient
> measurement, but I figured I'd just walk a bike up the hill watching a
> bubble level and take a more precise reading at what seemed to be the
> steepest spot.
>
>>> I don't think it
>>> would be difficult to try all potential steep points within a cyclist's
>>> normal riding path. A bike fitted with a level and a couple rulers
>>> should be capable of giving suitable accuracy.
>>
>> What would you consider suitable accuracy? The table I linked showed
>> 0.5% accuracy (0.5 degrees out of 2.5 digits). I would think that
>> would be very difficult to be repeatable much less accurate.
>
> That raises a related question: What's the purpose of the measurement
> exercise? What is anybody going to do with peak steepness data?
>
> The most practical application I can think of is for describing a
> planned group ride. Saying "Some hills will be as steep as X%" might
> keep someone from getting in over their head, so to speak. But that
> needs only very approximate accuracy.
>
Well indeed and the surface etc will have some effect as well, even if a
surfaced climb if wet/leaves or well just cut up, one of the nasties in
wales is quite rough and well gravelly on its first half which is a 30%
ramp which makes it even less fun!

Roger Merriman

On 2/3/23 02:04, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 24.02.2023 um 21:13 schrieb funkma...@hotmail.com:
>> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 1:10:16 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
>>> On 23/2/23 22:00, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe James actually did typo the elevation gain, but 1KM per
>>>> climbing per 78Km ridden, though nothing to sneeze at, is hardly
>>>>  the stuff of Professionals.
>>> Nope. Select, copy, paste from Strava statistics. No typing errors
>>> possible.
>>>
>>
>> That's what I suspected based on the formatting. As I noted, nothing
>>  to sneeze at!
>>
>>> GPS errors or Strava errors are possible I suppose.
>>
>> Not with any consistency. What you'll see is a bizarre blip here and
>>  there where you seem to teleport several thousand feet in a matter of
>> seconds. Unless of course your garmin reports a top speed of 87 mph on
>> your bicycle, which must be right.....
>>
> GPS errors on Strava are not possible for road cycling because Strava
> replaces the altitude data from GPS by altitude data
> from map information as part of their error correction routines.
>
> All my rides (and also hikes) show massively more altitude gains in
> their original version on Garmin and on Komoot than on Strava (in the
> past, Strave always placed a fake hill into my commute where the bike
> trail was going along the foot of a hill, giving an altitude gain of 49m
> on 12km; the rides since 2020 show an altitude gain of 20m on 12km).

Yes, I thought there was some correction. I thought it may have been an
averaging of all the uploaded trips over a road.

Yesterday I rode 100km with 1321m of elevation gain. It's on Strava, so
it certainly happened. ;-)

--
JS

On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 12:47:26 AM UTC-8, James wrote:
> On 2/3/23 02:04, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> > Am 24.02.2023 um 21:13 schrieb funkma...@hotmail.com:
> >> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 1:10:16 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
> >>> On 23/2/23 22:00, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Maybe James actually did typo the elevation gain, but 1KM per
> >>>> climbing per 78Km ridden, though nothing to sneeze at, is hardly
> >>>> the stuff of Professionals.
> >>> Nope. Select, copy, paste from Strava statistics. No typing errors
> >>> possible.
> >>>
> >>
> >> That's what I suspected based on the formatting. As I noted, nothing
> >> to sneeze at!
> >>
> >>> GPS errors or Strava errors are possible I suppose.
> >>
> >> Not with any consistency. What you'll see is a bizarre blip here and
> >> there where you seem to teleport several thousand feet in a matter of
> >> seconds. Unless of course your garmin reports a top speed of 87 mph on
> >> your bicycle, which must be right.....
> >>
> > GPS errors on Strava are not possible for road cycling because Strava
> > replaces the altitude data from GPS by altitude data
> > from map information as part of their error correction routines.
> >
> > All my rides (and also hikes) show massively more altitude gains in
> > their original version on Garmin and on Komoot than on Strava (in the
> > past, Strave always placed a fake hill into my commute where the bike
> > trail was going along the foot of a hill, giving an altitude gain of 49m
> > on 12km; the rides since 2020 show an altitude gain of 20m on 12km).
> Yes, I thought there was some correction. I thought it may have been an
> averaging of all the uploaded trips over a road.
>
> Yesterday I rode 100km with 1321m of elevation gain. It's on Strava, so
> it certainly happened. ;-)

Yesterday I got an email that Leiberman was copying my strava results. That surprised me since I ended my strava membership several weeks ago. Does that mean that strava is still logging my rides regardless of membership?

On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 4:50:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 12:47:26 AM UTC-8, James wrote:
> > On 2/3/23 02:04, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> > > Am 24.02.2023 um 21:13 schrieb funkma...@hotmail.com:
> > >> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 1:10:16 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
> > >>> On 23/2/23 22:00, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Maybe James actually did typo the elevation gain, but 1KM per
> > >>>> climbing per 78Km ridden, though nothing to sneeze at, is hardly
> > >>>> the stuff of Professionals.
> > >>> Nope. Select, copy, paste from Strava statistics. No typing errors
> > >>> possible.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> That's what I suspected based on the formatting. As I noted, nothing
> > >> to sneeze at!
> > >>
> > >>> GPS errors or Strava errors are possible I suppose.
> > >>
> > >> Not with any consistency. What you'll see is a bizarre blip here and
> > >> there where you seem to teleport several thousand feet in a matter of
> > >> seconds. Unless of course your garmin reports a top speed of 87 mph on
> > >> your bicycle, which must be right.....
> > >>
> > > GPS errors on Strava are not possible for road cycling because Strava
> > > replaces the altitude data from GPS by altitude data
> > > from map information as part of their error correction routines.
> > >
> > > All my rides (and also hikes) show massively more altitude gains in
> > > their original version on Garmin and on Komoot than on Strava (in the
> > > past, Strave always placed a fake hill into my commute where the bike
> > > trail was going along the foot of a hill, giving an altitude gain of 49m
> > > on 12km; the rides since 2020 show an altitude gain of 20m on 12km).
> > Yes, I thought there was some correction. I thought it may have been an
> > averaging of all the uploaded trips over a road.
> >
> > Yesterday I rode 100km with 1321m of elevation gain. It's on Strava, so
> > it certainly happened. ;-)
> Yesterday I got an email that Leiberman was copying my strava results. That surprised me since I ended my strava membership several weeks ago. Does that mean that strava is still logging my rides regardless of membership?

When I search for you I find an account with no activities like Mr. Liebermann stated. Your account with your activities is gone/not visible for me. You may remove that empty account too.

Lou

On 3/4/2023 10:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Yesterday I got an email that Leiberman was copying my strava results.

No you didn't. Nobody here believes you're reading only secret emails
from secret admirers about what's publicly posted in this discussion
group. Get a grip.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 9:08:47 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 4:50:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 12:47:26 AM UTC-8, James wrote:
> > > On 2/3/23 02:04, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> > > > Am 24.02.2023 um 21:13 schrieb funkma...@hotmail.com:
> > > >> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 1:10:16 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
> > > >>> On 23/2/23 22:00, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Maybe James actually did typo the elevation gain, but 1KM per
> > > >>>> climbing per 78Km ridden, though nothing to sneeze at, is hardly
> > > >>>> the stuff of Professionals.
> > > >>> Nope. Select, copy, paste from Strava statistics. No typing errors
> > > >>> possible.
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> That's what I suspected based on the formatting. As I noted, nothing
> > > >> to sneeze at!
> > > >>
> > > >>> GPS errors or Strava errors are possible I suppose.
> > > >>
> > > >> Not with any consistency. What you'll see is a bizarre blip here and
> > > >> there where you seem to teleport several thousand feet in a matter of
> > > >> seconds. Unless of course your garmin reports a top speed of 87 mph on
> > > >> your bicycle, which must be right.....
> > > >>
> > > > GPS errors on Strava are not possible for road cycling because Strava
> > > > replaces the altitude data from GPS by altitude data
> > > > from map information as part of their error correction routines.
> > > >
> > > > All my rides (and also hikes) show massively more altitude gains in
> > > > their original version on Garmin and on Komoot than on Strava (in the
> > > > past, Strave always placed a fake hill into my commute where the bike
> > > > trail was going along the foot of a hill, giving an altitude gain of 49m
> > > > on 12km; the rides since 2020 show an altitude gain of 20m on 12km)..
> > > Yes, I thought there was some correction. I thought it may have been an
> > > averaging of all the uploaded trips over a road.
> > >
> > > Yesterday I rode 100km with 1321m of elevation gain. It's on Strava, so
> > > it certainly happened. ;-)
> > Yesterday I got an email that Leiberman was copying my strava results. That surprised me since I ended my strava membership several weeks ago. Does that mean that strava is still logging my rides regardless of membership?
> When I search for you I find an account with no activities like Mr. Liebermann stated. Your account with your activities is gone/not visible for me. You may remove that empty account too.
>
> Lou

It says that my account is in "data breach" as of 4 months ago which is odd since that is when it was working fine. That is when Leiberman started posting my mileage which was even odder since it was the same as the numbers I had posted though I rounded the numbers off to make typing them in easier. There really is something dramatically wrong with this guy.

Now I'm glad to hear that my account is dead, thanks for that information. I guess another question is why he is still trying to get into an account that even I can't get into.

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 4:50:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 12:47:26 AM UTC-8, James wrote:
>>> On 2/3/23 02:04, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> Am 24.02.2023 um 21:13 schrieb funkma...@hotmail.com:
>>>>> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 1:10:16 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
>>>>>> On 23/2/23 22:00, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe James actually did typo the elevation gain, but 1KM per
>>>>>>> climbing per 78Km ridden, though nothing to sneeze at, is hardly
>>>>>>> the stuff of Professionals.
>>>>>> Nope. Select, copy, paste from Strava statistics. No typing errors
>>>>>> possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what I suspected based on the formatting. As I noted, nothing
>>>>> to sneeze at!
>>>>>
>>>>>> GPS errors or Strava errors are possible I suppose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not with any consistency. What you'll see is a bizarre blip here and
>>>>> there where you seem to teleport several thousand feet in a matter of
>>>>> seconds. Unless of course your garmin reports a top speed of 87 mph on
>>>>> your bicycle, which must be right.....
>>>>>
>>>> GPS errors on Strava are not possible for road cycling because Strava
>>>> replaces the altitude data from GPS by altitude data
>>>> from map information as part of their error correction routines.
>>>>
>>>> All my rides (and also hikes) show massively more altitude gains in
>>>> their original version on Garmin and on Komoot than on Strava (in the
>>>> past, Strave always placed a fake hill into my commute where the bike
>>>> trail was going along the foot of a hill, giving an altitude gain of 49m
>>>> on 12km; the rides since 2020 show an altitude gain of 20m on 12km).
>>> Yes, I thought there was some correction. I thought it may have been an
>>> averaging of all the uploaded trips over a road.
>>>
>>> Yesterday I rode 100km with 1321m of elevation gain. It's on Strava, so
>>> it certainly happened. ;-)
>> Yesterday I got an email that Leiberman was copying my strava results.
>> That surprised me since I ended my strava membership several weeks ago.
>> Does that mean that strava is still logging my rides regardless of membership?
>
> When I search for you I find an account with no activities like Mr.
> Liebermann stated. Your account with your activities is gone/not visible
> for me. You may remove that empty account too.
>
> Lou
>
Seems to have gone but I just let the browser auto fill the URL than
actually search.

Roger Merriman

On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 10:50:21 AM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Yesterday I got an email that Leiberman was copying my strava results.

No you didn't.

> That surprised me since I ended my strava membership several weeks ago.

That's actually what he wrote: "Now, I find that your account and everything else is gone." What kind of idiot takes the word of some alleged email without verify it first? Why, the kunich kind, of course!

> Does that mean that strava is still logging my rides regardless of membership?
Only if you fucked it up. And knowing you.....

On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 12:42:48 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 9:08:47 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 4:50:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 12:47:26 AM UTC-8, James wrote:
> > > > On 2/3/23 02:04, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> > > > > Am 24.02.2023 um 21:13 schrieb funkma...@hotmail.com:
> > > > >> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 1:10:16 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
> > > > >>> On 23/2/23 22:00, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Maybe James actually did typo the elevation gain, but 1KM per
> > > > >>>> climbing per 78Km ridden, though nothing to sneeze at, is hardly
> > > > >>>> the stuff of Professionals.
> > > > >>> Nope. Select, copy, paste from Strava statistics. No typing errors
> > > > >>> possible.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> That's what I suspected based on the formatting. As I noted, nothing
> > > > >> to sneeze at!
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> GPS errors or Strava errors are possible I suppose.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Not with any consistency. What you'll see is a bizarre blip here and
> > > > >> there where you seem to teleport several thousand feet in a matter of
> > > > >> seconds. Unless of course your garmin reports a top speed of 87 mph on
> > > > >> your bicycle, which must be right.....
> > > > >>
> > > > > GPS errors on Strava are not possible for road cycling because Strava
> > > > > replaces the altitude data from GPS by altitude data
> > > > > from map information as part of their error correction routines.
> > > > >
> > > > > All my rides (and also hikes) show massively more altitude gains in
> > > > > their original version on Garmin and on Komoot than on Strava (in the
> > > > > past, Strave always placed a fake hill into my commute where the bike
> > > > > trail was going along the foot of a hill, giving an altitude gain of 49m
> > > > > on 12km; the rides since 2020 show an altitude gain of 20m on 12km).
> > > > Yes, I thought there was some correction. I thought it may have been an
> > > > averaging of all the uploaded trips over a road.
> > > >
> > > > Yesterday I rode 100km with 1321m of elevation gain. It's on Strava, so
> > > > it certainly happened. ;-)
> > > Yesterday I got an email that Leiberman was copying my strava results.. That surprised me since I ended my strava membership several weeks ago. Does that mean that strava is still logging my rides regardless of membership?
> > When I search for you I find an account with no activities like Mr. Liebermann stated. Your account with your activities is gone/not visible for me. You may remove that empty account too.
> >
> > Lou
> It says that my account is in "data breach" as of 4 months ago which is odd since that is when it was working fine.

No it doesn't. There is no individual account-based error message that warns of data breaches. Searches of the Strava help utility and the Strava Community yeild 0 results when searched for 'data breach' - unless you're going to fantasize you're the only person it ever happened to. Web searches only return the National Security flaw with active duty military posting thier workouts publicly - and that wasn't a data breach.

If you got an error message from Strava stating your account is in data breach, take a screen shot and post it.

> That is when Leiberman started posting my mileage which was even odder since it was the same as the numbers
>I had posted though I rounded the numbers off to make typing them in easier. There really is something dramatically
> wrong with this guy.

Wow....

>
> Now I'm glad to hear that my account is dead, thanks for that information.. I guess another question is why he is still trying to get into an account that even I can't get into.

On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 07:50:19 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Yesterday I got an email that Leiberman was copying my strava results. That surprised me since I ended my strava membership several weeks ago. Does that mean that strava is still logging my rides regardless of membership?

Nice of you to notice because I posted this yesterday:

Mar 3, 2023
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/iDimBKLJFsY/m/CYDKdGMPAgAJ>
"I was going to thank you on doing at least one thing right and now
you screw that up. You took several peoples advice (including me) to
post your impressive rides on Strava. Now, I find that your account
and everything else is gone.
<https://www.strava.com/athletes/44707301>
What happened? Did you get banned?
If you're going into hiding, you should also remove your other (blank)
account:
<https://www.strava.com/athletes/27432450> "

It's interesting how you managed to twist the facts. If you're going
to lie, at least try to make your allegations believable. At this
point, I don't think anyone believes you, no matter what you write.

Incidentally, you also lied about terminating your Strava membership
"several weeks ago". My Firefox history shows that I successfully
looked at your Strava pages 6 days ago (Mar 26).

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558