On Fri, 08 Oct 2021 09:43:06 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

>On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 00:30:01 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
><gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The dryer here seems to be plugged into a 120V outlet. It's also on an extension cord. Anyone see anything like that before?
>>
>>I suppose it's actually a 240V connector which is the same size as a standard 120V connector but having one or more pins turned 90 degrees. Still, those aren't very high current.
>
>370 posts about laundry!
>
>371 now.

499 posts about laundry, so I have the honor of making it 500!

--

Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still;
but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was
always most valuable when he had lost it.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 07:17:31 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Oct 2021 09:43:06 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 00:30:01 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
>><gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>The dryer here seems to be plugged into a 120V outlet. It's also on an extension cord. Anyone see anything like that before?
>>>
>>>I suppose it's actually a 240V connector which is the same size as a standard 120V connector but having one or more pins turned 90 degrees. Still, those aren't very high current.
>>
>>370 posts about laundry!
>>
>>371 now.
>
>499 posts about laundry, so I have the honor of making it 500!

And I just crossed 10,000 emails in my Outlook junk folder! What a
day!

--

Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still;
but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was
always most valuable when he had lost it.

Tabby <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1f5cd80c-588f-480b-90ad-0382272290dan@googlegroups.com:

> On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 10:26:23 UTC+1,
> DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
>> Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:5695002c-26ad-4dc7...@googlegroups.com:
>> > On Sunday, 10 October 2021 at 04:50:58 UTC+1,
>> > DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
>> >> Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> >> news:235bbe59-1102-40ba...@googlegroups.com:
>> >> > On Saturday, 9 October 2021 at 17:51:31 UTC+1,
>> >> > DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
>> >> >> Rob <nom...@example.com> wrote in
>> >> >> news:slrnsm3g0e...@xs9.xs4all.nl:
>> >> >> > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 10:02:05 AM UTC-4, Rob
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> snip
>> >> >> >> Duct work uses zero space when designed into a building.
>> >> >> >> They typically use a bit of space in a basement to get
>> >> >> >> under a main beam, otherwise not an issue. Attics are
>> >> >> >> also used. Houses typically have a space to run pipes
>> >> >> >> between floors if multistory, that can hold an air
>> >> >> >> plenum too with little extra size. Radiators take up
>> >> >> >> floor space in a room and furniture must be kept away
>> >> >> >> from them for proper operation. Very awkward.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Well it is called a radiator but that is actually a
>> >> >> > misnomer, it emits most of its heat using convection. Air
>> >> >> > circulates through them because they heat air which then
>> >> >> > rises, so new cool air is pulled in from the bottom and
>> >> >> > output at the top, normally under a window. There is no
>> >> >> > special need to keep furniture away from them as they
>> >> >> > only get hand-warm unless the heating runs at full tilt
>> >> >> > and is dimensioned quite powerful.
>> >> >> It IS a "radiator". It "Radiates its heat" into the
>> >> >> boundary layer air around it and farther and that heated
>> >> >> air then rises being hot, and that hot rising air then
>> >> >> heats the room via convection. It is all about the IR
>> >> >> emission right there proximal to it, and from then on, the
>> >> >> action on the room is convection of its air. But that trade
>> >> >> of heat into the air took place right at the "radiating
>> >> >> elements" (The whole dang thing usually).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> snip
>> >> >
>> >> > they aren't hot enough to radiate.
>> >> >
>> >> Everything above absolute zero "radiates".
>> >
>> > not much compared to convection.
>> >
>> >> How something 'feels' to a human has nothing to do with it.
>> >
>> I think you have some limited grasp of the meanings of some of
>> the terms in use here.
>>
>> Convection is an atmospheric, planetary gravity based thing. We
>> sit under over 14 psi of atmosphere and if we heat some up, it
>> rises within colder "air" of the same makeup.
>>
>> Radiation drives ALL convection. IR radiation. Even heated sinks
>> meant to remove heat from one location and transfer it to the air
>> use radiation to heat the air which then moves away from the sink
>> allowing the process to repeat and continue. Even if those sinks
>> form "convection currents".
>>
>> So yeah, sure... the room is heated by the convextion currents
>> generated by the "radiators", but those currents are generated by
>> the radiant heating of the boundary layer air proximal to the
>> radiator.
>>
>> Besides us calling them "convectors" would sound silly. We do not
>> call our kitchen ovens "Convection Boxes".
>
> IOW yes, the heat output is convected.
>

The RADIATED heat output radiates into the closeby air cuasing it to
heat and rise, raising the room temperature via "convection"
currents of said warmed air.

All thanks to the RADIATOR. Which, by the way, also heats farther
than its local convection air via IR. You can even feel it. I
worked in IR so I know and have proofs. You can stand in a room
where the radiator just went full blast hot with steam... stand
between it and a person sitting in a chair 8 feet away. That person
can feel the heat of the radiator and you can use an album or album
cover to block the path between and feel the noticeble radiant heat
when the block is pulled up. Same principle a chopper wheel uses.

You can also feel it with a no stick skillet. Get it hot. The
burner side does not radiate much but the no stick "frypan" side
literally radiates heat even though the pan is the same temperature
throughout. That is about surface treatment.

However the difference between a matte black painted radiator and a
white enamel job is only about one percent. Most of the radiant heat
is about it being a big chunk of hollow iron with steam flowing in
it.

Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote in
news:sk3gsb$2db$1@gonzo.revmaps.no-ip.org:

> On 2021-10-11, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>> On 10/11/2021 1:07 AM, Rob wrote:
>>> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>> SWMBO opened the refrigerator (1) to fetch the pitcher of
>>>> water. Close door. Measure out water for the rice. Put
>>>> pitcher back in refrigerator (2).
>>>
>>> I find it a bit remarkable that you would use cooled water for
>>> the purpose of boiling rice...
>>
>> It's *filtered* water (read post upthread). The "obvious" choice
>> of using HOT water from the tap is a worse choice! The
>> difference in time required to bring it to a boil is
>> insignificant (it's a small volume). And, HOT water has been
>> sitting in a large tank that likely contains sediment accumulated
>> over decades (a water pitcher is emptied as part of its normal
>> use)
>
> So, the hot water is cleaner than the cold water as evident from
> the sediment that has been removed from the water by the tank.
>
> Still a filter will probably be be a further improvement.
>

I'll bet that 15+ year old face you put into your posts looks a lot
different now...

Even funnier is that we used to think that was high resolution. :-)

On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 01:10:54 UTC+1, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 8:06:21 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 00:47:34 UTC+1, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 16.53.30 UTC+2 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
> > > > Yeah, you seem to be thinking this heat exchanger has to be near the bathrooms. I've already explained that the best place for this is near the entrance of cold water and egress of waste water and in particular near the hot water heater if possible. Think about the connections to be made. If you have multistory structures, then by definition you have plumbing in the vertical walls. Once you realize the bathroom location has nothing to do with the matter you will see this is a simple matter.
> > > >
> > > I guess for a shower with a thermostat you could put it on the cold water right at the shower, and the thermostat would
> > > adjust the mix using less hot water and more warmed up cold water
> > if the shower uses only its own drain water to warm the cold feed, no stat needed. I tihnk this is how showers will go at some point, the tray will double as aheat exchanger.
> That's a bad idea. Then you need a heat exchanger for EACH shower.

depends on cost & return. It costs little to turn the shower tray into a HX, and most houses have 1 shower of course.

> One unit can serve the entire house if you do it right.

Sure. Most houses of course can't use a vertical film type

On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 01:17:44 UTC+1, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> tirsdag den 12. oktober 2021 kl. 02.06.21 UTC+2 skrev Tabby:
> > On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 00:47:34 UTC+1, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 16.53.30 UTC+2 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
> > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:12:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> > > > > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 4:22:46 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
> > > > > >> On Sunday, 10 October 2021 at 12:42:04 UTC+1, Rob wrote:
> > > > > >> > Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > drain heat exchangers are not installed horizontally because it would result in much worse heat exchange than when vertical.
> > > > > >> > Ok that will make it impossible to install one here... the shower
> > > > > >> > drain is running horizontally for about 2 meters here before it
> > > > > >> > goes down in the vertical shaft and the fresh water also runs
> > > > > >> > through the floor but goes off in a 90 degree angle relative to
> > > > > >> > the drain.
> > > > > >> It makes them unusable in most houses. Large buildings have the space and the water flow for much greater payback. I do think they'll become standard in new builds at some point, and horizontal designs are doable..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Every house I've lived in that wasn't on a concrete slab had a vertical drain pipe. This doesn't need to be right at the shower and in a house with multiple baths it's counter productive to have more than one. So it would go in the vertical pipe near the incoming water pipe and typically near the water heater as well. Optimal in all respects. Not hard to install in most existing homes either.
> > > > > Over here houses are normally multi story or even appartment buildings,
> > > > > and the floors always are concrete slabs. Bathrooms are usually not
> > > > > on the ground floor (where there would be crawl space below the floor)
> > > > > and the shaft with the drain pipe in my case does not include the incoming
> > > > > water pipe, only drains and air ducts for ventilation. Water is
> > > > > distributed "horizontally" in the floors.
> > > > Yeah, you seem to be thinking this heat exchanger has to be near the bathrooms. I've already explained that the best place for this is near the entrance of cold water and egress of waste water and in particular near the hot water heater if possible. Think about the connections to be made. If you have multistory structures, then by definition you have plumbing in the vertical walls. Once you realize the bathroom location has nothing to do with the matter you will see this is a simple matter.
> > > >
> > > I guess for a shower with a thermostat you could put it on the cold water right at the shower, and the thermostat would
> > > adjust the mix using less hot water and more warmed up cold water
> > if the shower uses only its own drain water to warm the cold feed, no stat needed. I tihnk this is how showers will go at some point, the tray will double as aheat exchanger.
> with no thermostat hotter "cold water" will make the shower hotter.

that's the point :)

using the tray as a heat exchanger means cold feet ..

Depends how you arrange it.

On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 01:41:33 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/11/2021 5:04 PM, Tabby wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 00:46:19 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 10/11/2021 4:38 PM, Tabby wrote:
> >>> On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 04:22:37 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
> >>>> On 10/10/2021 1:19 PM, Tabby wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>> Why such tiny cars?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> the downsides of huge cars outweigh the upsides. They're a pain when
> >>>>> most roads, parking etc were built for horse & small buggy. And having
> >>>>> had 2, frankly they're pointless.
> >>>> We don't have tiny roads. Why didn't you widen those "buggy trails" when
> >>>> the automobile came along? I imagine you brought your plumbing indoors so
> >>>> "tradition" can't explain it...
> >>>
> >>> A lot have been widened. They're still too small for US cars. A lot can't be
> >>> without a huge amount of demolition of buildings from the 1800s or often
> >>> many centuries earlier.
> >> You'll note that many US cities were settled before 1700. By the mid 1700's,
> >> the "country" was established.
> >>
> >> Yet, in all of those places, they managed to widen "cow paths"
> >> to accommodate horse drawn carriages and then automobiles,
> >> lorries, etc.
> >
> > and?
> and you could have done similarly.

Interesting that you have such an opinion on a situation you plainly don't understand.

> Here, in The West, most towns were settled later than Back East.
> Yet, even soon after their establishment, streets were very wide
> (to allow more than one "coach" to pass each other).

Yes. Here that has not normally been the case.

> And, nothing stops them from widening streets to this day;
> even if it means condemning buildings on one or both sides
> of a roadway to use their land for roadway.

that and the expense are what stops it happening more. Mass destruction of cities would be a bit dumb.

> Or, converting streets to one-way traffic, only -- even if

we have a lot of those. Their introduction pissed a lot of people off.

> already many lanes wide.

'Many lanes wide' is a foreign concept to us. Most lanes I've ever seen is 4 on some major motorways. Mways are more often 2 or 3 lanes per side. Within towns & cities forget it.

> A common tactic in large cities
> is to have streets alternate direction. In some places,
> the direction changes with time of day!!
>
> Clinging to the past is one sure way of STAYING in the past.

Not sure that has much relevance to our situation. What we have works and makes a lot more sense than mass-scale demolition.

tirsdag den 12. oktober 2021 kl. 20.30.06 UTC+2 skrev Tabby:
> On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 01:17:44 UTC+1, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > tirsdag den 12. oktober 2021 kl. 02.06.21 UTC+2 skrev Tabby:
> > > On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 00:47:34 UTC+1, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 16.53.30 UTC+2 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
> > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:12:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> > > > > > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 4:22:46 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
> > > > > > >> On Sunday, 10 October 2021 at 12:42:04 UTC+1, Rob wrote:
> > > > > > >> > Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >> > > drain heat exchangers are not installed horizontally because it would result in much worse heat exchange than when vertical.
> > > > > > >> > Ok that will make it impossible to install one here... the shower
> > > > > > >> > drain is running horizontally for about 2 meters here before it
> > > > > > >> > goes down in the vertical shaft and the fresh water also runs
> > > > > > >> > through the floor but goes off in a 90 degree angle relative to
> > > > > > >> > the drain.
> > > > > > >> It makes them unusable in most houses. Large buildings have the space and the water flow for much greater payback. I do think they'll become standard in new builds at some point, and horizontal designs are doable.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Every house I've lived in that wasn't on a concrete slab had a vertical drain pipe. This doesn't need to be right at the shower and in a house with multiple baths it's counter productive to have more than one. So it would go in the vertical pipe near the incoming water pipe and typically near the water heater as well. Optimal in all respects. Not hard to install in most existing homes either.
> > > > > > Over here houses are normally multi story or even appartment buildings,
> > > > > > and the floors always are concrete slabs. Bathrooms are usually not
> > > > > > on the ground floor (where there would be crawl space below the floor)
> > > > > > and the shaft with the drain pipe in my case does not include the incoming
> > > > > > water pipe, only drains and air ducts for ventilation. Water is
> > > > > > distributed "horizontally" in the floors.
> > > > > Yeah, you seem to be thinking this heat exchanger has to be near the bathrooms. I've already explained that the best place for this is near the entrance of cold water and egress of waste water and in particular near the hot water heater if possible. Think about the connections to be made. If you have multistory structures, then by definition you have plumbing in the vertical walls. Once you realize the bathroom location has nothing to do with the matter you will see this is a simple matter.
> > > > >
> > > > I guess for a shower with a thermostat you could put it on the cold water right at the shower, and the thermostat would
> > > > adjust the mix using less hot water and more warmed up cold water
> > > if the shower uses only its own drain water to warm the cold feed, no stat needed. I tihnk this is how showers will go at some point, the tray will double as aheat exchanger.
> > with no thermostat hotter "cold water" will make the shower hotter.
>
> that's the point :)

no, it should stay at the temperature you set it at

On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 02:35:59 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/11/2021 4:40 PM, Tabby wrote:
>
> >> Because you *do* that for folks you care about. This cuts into the time
> >> that *I* have to pursue my interests. As well as my day-to-day
> >> lifestyle... (when I am awake, when I eat, how I dress, etc. on those days
> >> when I have to interact with her circles)
> >
> > I don't think I've ever expected my family to take any part in my
> > electronics. In a healthy life one does take some time for these things,
> > despite it being in short supply. A lot of folk are quite time wasteful.

> You don't discuss your passions with those close to you?

I do, but I don't expect people to take part in them. Electronics is to many meaningless.

> SWMBO isn't very "technical". But, that just means *I* have to
> find ways of making the points I want to make to her appropriate
> for her understanding. As she is interested in "what makes me happy",
> she makes a genuine effort to understand the points I am making.
>
> It would be sad if one didn't know about the things that "light the
> fires" of those they care about. You'd be missing out on the most
> intense/pleasurable part of their life!

indeed.

On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 10:14:04 UTC+1, Rob wrote:
> Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 04:22:37 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 10/10/2021 1:19 PM, Tabby wrote:
> >
> >> >> Why such tiny cars?
> >> >
> >> > the downsides of huge cars outweigh the upsides. They're a pain when most
> >> > roads, parking etc were built for horse & small buggy. And having had 2,
> >> > frankly they're pointless.
> >> We don't have tiny roads. Why didn't you widen those "buggy trails"
> >> when the automobile came along? I imagine you brought your plumbing
> >> indoors so "tradition" can't explain it...
> >
> > A lot have been widened. They're still too small for US cars. A lot can't be without a huge amount of demolition of buildings from the 1800s or often many centuries earlier.
> Our standard parking space is 2.5m wide. But spaces of 2.3m also
> exist. That is narrow even for a larger European car but a Tesla
> will not be able to open its doors when parked there.

There are also many garages that can only just squeeze in a euro sized car - and many old ones that aren;t big enough for today's cars.

On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 13:53:49 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/12/2021 4:53 AM, Rob wrote:
> > Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
> >> Specious reasoning. The pitcher will be EMPTIED several times a day
> >> so anything that manages to "settle" will be flushed -- if not discarded'
> >> when the filter is replaced.
> >>
> >> The water heater is NEVER emptied. (some folks recommend draining it
> >> annually, others recommend AGAINST doing so)
> >>
> >> The water heater is 4 (5?) ft tall, fed from the top and *feeds* from
> >> the top. So, sediments that manage to accumulate there will likely
> >> never leave the tank. That says nothing of materials that actually
> >> *do* leave the tank.
> >
> > It may look like that from the outside, but I assure you there is an
> > internal pipe that feeds the cold water to the bottom of the tank and
> > takes out the hot water from the top, trying to stir it as little as
> > possible.
> > That way, when you get hot water from the tank (and replace that with
> > cold water) you will not get a mix of hot and cold water at ever
> > decreasing temperature. Hot water tends to rise to / remain at the
> > top and the cold water sticks to the bottom, where it is heated most
> > by the heater.
> > So when you use water, there is a net (but small) vertical flow in
> > the tank.
> The dip tube doesn't extend to the bottom of the tank. Else it
> would become blocked with debris in short order -- even allowing for
> the turblence that inlet water creates.
>
> There is always a (convective) flow as the heating element is at the
> bottom (in a gas-fired tank). Electric tanks have upper and lower
> heating elements.
>
> Regardless, heaters accumulate sediment and don't just "pass it through".

Here HW tanks don't have any dip tube. Gas powered heat goes down the centre, so the top water gets hot before lower water does.

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
>> > with no thermostat hotter "cold water" will make the shower hotter.
>>
>> that's the point :)
>
> no, it should stay at the temperature you set it at

With a thermostatic tap, yes. I frankly cannot understand why
anyone would want a shower without that! I consider it standard
equipment for a shower.

Tabby <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:
> depends on cost & return. It costs little to turn the shower tray into a HX, and most houses have 1 shower of course.

My shower does not have a shower tray... the tiled floor of the bathroom
just slopes gently into one corner, that is where the shower is located,
and the drain is in the corner.

Makes it easy to mop the floor, and it doubles as a safety against
mishaps with the washing machine, which is located in the other corner.
Should that ever decide to leak, the water just flows to the shower
drain, instead of soaking my house.

On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 14:20:49 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/12/2021 5:11 AM, Rob wrote:
> >>> Our standard parking space is 2.5m wide. But spaces of 2.3m also exist.
> >>> That is narrow even for a larger European car but a Tesla will not be able
> >>> to open its doors when parked there.
> >>
> >> A standard "2 car garage" door is 16 ft wide (4.88m). A single width door
> >> is half that -- 2.44m. Note that the doors of the vehicle are rarely
> >> open when passing through the doorway!
> >
> > What I described is an outdoor parking space. The distance between
> > the lines is 2.5m. When you park between two cars already parked
> > alongside, you have 2.5m - the width of a car available to open the
> > doors, because you can use the space left by the next car parked
> > alongside. Of course that does not work in a garage, it needs to be
> > wider at least internally. The external door can still be 2.5 m.
> >
> > My car is 1.65m wide. So that leaves me 85cm available for door
> > opening when parked in a 2.5m space (and similar cars parked alongside,
> > all neatly in the center). That is ample space.
> My car is a bit over 1.82m wide. SWMBO is 1.87m. Parked adjacent to
> each other (in garage), they must fit through the 5.5m garage door
> as, once inside, there is little room *beyond* the door frame into
> which doors could be opened.
>
> (I have 18" deep shelves from floor to ceiling on both sides of the
> garage that consume the interior space beyond the door frame.
> Recall, no attic/basement!)
>
> We park the cars head-to-toe so that the driver's door is always
> on the outside -- allowing us to park the passenger sides closer
> together (passenger exits vehicle before entering garage) and
> claim that extra space for driver-side doors (my doors are very
> wide -- 2 dr land yacht)
>
> I try to leave most of the available width for her (she seems
> to have more trouble squeezing into tight spaces). Her car
> is presently 0.7m from the shelving units, on the driver's
> side (but REALLY close on the passenger side!)
> > With a 2.3m space it is only 65cm and starts to become more difficult,
> > however a Tesla model X is 2m wide and clearly will have difficulty in
> > all our spaces, and I will have difficulty when such a car is parked next
> > to me as it cuts away 20cm from my door opening space.
> >
> >> But, the demands on a parking space are different than those of a roadway.
> >>
> >> A typical traffic lane is 12 ft wide. often reduced to 10 ft in urban areas
> >> (slower traffic patterns). Wider lanes for highways, etc.
> >
> > A standard highway traffic lane is 3.5 m here (11.5 feet), but narrower
> > lanes (a feet or so less) exist where the layout of existing highways
> > has been modified to accomodate an extra lane.
> Highways are built with wide shoulders. It is not uncommon for
> another lane to be available in "shoulder space". A vehicle in
> distress can pull over COMPLETELY onto the shoulder to change a
> tire, etc.

We used to have a narrow hard shoulder on Mways. Mostly not as wide as a car. A lot of these hard shoulders are now gone to provide for a 3rd or sometimes 4th lane.

> > A guideline for a two-way residential street is a total width of 7.2
> > meter (23 feet) from curb to curb, but that is just a guideline and
> > narrower streets do exist, especially in old cities and in residential
> > neighborhoods without through traffic.
> > (called "cauliflower neighbourhoods" here: there is one large feeder
> > road which splits up in ever smaller roads all ending in cul-de-sacs)
> We can park a vehicle on each side of the street (in residential neighborhoods)
> and still have two vehicles pass, at speed, unimpeded.

Old neighbourhoods herre are often so narrow that exceeding 20mph would be an act of insanity, and 2 cars passing is a nonstarter. If you've got a big car you're not getting in at all.

>Folks often use the
> road for "overflow parking" (e.g., when hosting an event at their home).

we do that all the time. The footpath is main parking or overflow in some areas.

> "Alleys" tend to be narrower -- and often cluttered with "stuff".
> So, only a single lane of traffic is possible. But, people don't "drive"
> in alleys -- think of them as "driveway extensions" shared by multiple
> buildings with very rare traffic.

On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 19:39:34 UTC+1, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> tirsdag den 12. oktober 2021 kl. 20.30.06 UTC+2 skrev Tabby:
> > On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 01:17:44 UTC+1, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > tirsdag den 12. oktober 2021 kl. 02.06.21 UTC+2 skrev Tabby:
> > > > On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 00:47:34 UTC+1, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 16.53.30 UTC+2 skrev gnuarm.del....@gmail.com:
> > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:12:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> > > > > > > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 4:22:46 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
> > > > > > > >> On Sunday, 10 October 2021 at 12:42:04 UTC+1, Rob wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > > drain heat exchangers are not installed horizontally because it would result in much worse heat exchange than when vertical.
> > > > > > > >> > Ok that will make it impossible to install one here... the shower
> > > > > > > >> > drain is running horizontally for about 2 meters here before it
> > > > > > > >> > goes down in the vertical shaft and the fresh water also runs
> > > > > > > >> > through the floor but goes off in a 90 degree angle relative to
> > > > > > > >> > the drain.
> > > > > > > >> It makes them unusable in most houses. Large buildings have the space and the water flow for much greater payback. I do think they'll become standard in new builds at some point, and horizontal designs are doable.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Every house I've lived in that wasn't on a concrete slab had a vertical drain pipe. This doesn't need to be right at the shower and in a house with multiple baths it's counter productive to have more than one. So it would go in the vertical pipe near the incoming water pipe and typically near the water heater as well. Optimal in all respects. Not hard to install in most existing homes either.
> > > > > > > Over here houses are normally multi story or even appartment buildings,
> > > > > > > and the floors always are concrete slabs. Bathrooms are usually not
> > > > > > > on the ground floor (where there would be crawl space below the floor)
> > > > > > > and the shaft with the drain pipe in my case does not include the incoming
> > > > > > > water pipe, only drains and air ducts for ventilation. Water is
> > > > > > > distributed "horizontally" in the floors.
> > > > > > Yeah, you seem to be thinking this heat exchanger has to be near the bathrooms. I've already explained that the best place for this is near the entrance of cold water and egress of waste water and in particular near the hot water heater if possible. Think about the connections to be made.. If you have multistory structures, then by definition you have plumbing in the vertical walls. Once you realize the bathroom location has nothing to do with the matter you will see this is a simple matter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > I guess for a shower with a thermostat you could put it on the cold water right at the shower, and the thermostat would
> > > > > adjust the mix using less hot water and more warmed up cold water
> > > > if the shower uses only its own drain water to warm the cold feed, no stat needed. I tihnk this is how showers will go at some point, the tray will double as aheat exchanger.
> > > with no thermostat hotter "cold water" will make the shower hotter.
> >
> > that's the point :)
> no, it should stay at the temperature you set it at

I accept you don't understand the situation.

On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 19:44:57 UTC+1, Tabby wrote:
> On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 10:14:04 UTC+1, Rob wrote:
> > Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 04:22:37 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
> > >> On 10/10/2021 1:19 PM, Tabby wrote:
> > >
> > >> >> Why such tiny cars?
> > >> >
> > >> > the downsides of huge cars outweigh the upsides. They're a pain when most
> > >> > roads, parking etc were built for horse & small buggy. And having had 2,
> > >> > frankly they're pointless.
> > >> We don't have tiny roads. Why didn't you widen those "buggy trails"
> > >> when the automobile came along? I imagine you brought your plumbing
> > >> indoors so "tradition" can't explain it...
> > >
> > > A lot have been widened. They're still too small for US cars. A lot can't be without a huge amount of demolition of buildings from the 1800s or often many centuries earlier.
> > Our standard parking space is 2.5m wide. But spaces of 2.3m also
> > exist. That is narrow even for a larger European car but a Tesla
> > will not be able to open its doors when parked there.
> There are also many garages that can only just squeeze in a euro sized car - and many old ones that aren;t big enough for today's cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMWHYBi7kG8
the only thing extreme about that is the chap's determination.

tirsdag den 12. oktober 2021 kl. 21.22.54 UTC+2 skrev Tabby:
> On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 19:39:34 UTC+1, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > tirsdag den 12. oktober 2021 kl. 20.30.06 UTC+2 skrev Tabby:
> > > On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 01:17:44 UTC+1, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > tirsdag den 12. oktober 2021 kl. 02.06.21 UTC+2 skrev Tabby:
> > > > > On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 00:47:34 UTC+1, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 16.53.30 UTC+2 skrev gnuarm.del....@gmail.com:
> > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:12:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> > > > > > > > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 4:22:46 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> On Sunday, 10 October 2021 at 12:42:04 UTC+1, Rob wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> > Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> > > drain heat exchangers are not installed horizontally because it would result in much worse heat exchange than when vertical.
> > > > > > > > >> > Ok that will make it impossible to install one here... the shower
> > > > > > > > >> > drain is running horizontally for about 2 meters here before it
> > > > > > > > >> > goes down in the vertical shaft and the fresh water also runs
> > > > > > > > >> > through the floor but goes off in a 90 degree angle relative to
> > > > > > > > >> > the drain.
> > > > > > > > >> It makes them unusable in most houses. Large buildings have the space and the water flow for much greater payback. I do think they'll become standard in new builds at some point, and horizontal designs are doable.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Every house I've lived in that wasn't on a concrete slab had a vertical drain pipe. This doesn't need to be right at the shower and in a house with multiple baths it's counter productive to have more than one. So it would go in the vertical pipe near the incoming water pipe and typically near the water heater as well. Optimal in all respects. Not hard to install in most existing homes either.
> > > > > > > > Over here houses are normally multi story or even appartment buildings,
> > > > > > > > and the floors always are concrete slabs. Bathrooms are usually not
> > > > > > > > on the ground floor (where there would be crawl space below the floor)
> > > > > > > > and the shaft with the drain pipe in my case does not include the incoming
> > > > > > > > water pipe, only drains and air ducts for ventilation. Water is
> > > > > > > > distributed "horizontally" in the floors.
> > > > > > > Yeah, you seem to be thinking this heat exchanger has to be near the bathrooms. I've already explained that the best place for this is near the entrance of cold water and egress of waste water and in particular near the hot water heater if possible. Think about the connections to be made. If you have multistory structures, then by definition you have plumbing in the vertical walls. Once you realize the bathroom location has nothing to do with the matter you will see this is a simple matter.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess for a shower with a thermostat you could put it on the cold water right at the shower, and the thermostat would
> > > > > > adjust the mix using less hot water and more warmed up cold water
> > > > > if the shower uses only its own drain water to warm the cold feed, no stat needed. I tihnk this is how showers will go at some point, the tray will double as aheat exchanger.
> > > > with no thermostat hotter "cold water" will make the shower hotter.
> > >
> > > that's the point :)
> > no, it should stay at the temperature you set it at
> I accept you don't understand the situation.

you want to set the shower the right temperature at the beginning of the shower and as
the heat exchanger starts working you have to keep adjusting so you don't get cooked?

On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 7:40:51 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>
> here you can use an app on your phone to scan stuff as you
> go through the store packing as you go. During installation age
> is verified so no extra steps needed to buy spirits

Sam's Club does that in the United States, and there have to be other stores, as well. You can pay for it with your Sam's club credit card from their app, as well.

On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:12:57 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/11/2021 6:50 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
> > The first had the county's approval as the only official site. That cut off
> > the supply of what I was collectng, repairing and giving away.
> There are dozens of places where folks can drop off "kit", here.
>
> The city maintains a (physical) site that accepts kit at specific
> dates/times. They partner with a local group to handle the
> electronics while the city handles the other "hazardous waste"
> (electronics are considered hazardous waste -- along with paint,
> motor oil, etc.)
>
> There are several non-profits that will also accept donated kit.
> The larger corporations in town will make use of these as the
> items donated end up reused locally (instead of shipped off to
> <somewhere> as scrap).
>
> There are scores of "second hand" shops that "take donations".
> The fate of the items donated is considerably more varied, there.
> They tend not to have staff that can affect repairs so if the
> item doesn't work, it may end up in *their* trash. (but, this can
> represent a source of unsellable goods)
>
> There are also "forums" where items are freely gifted to folks.
> Freecycle, the "free" section on Craig's List, etc.
>
> [I've a friend who watches for scrapped "AS IS" big screen TVs
> in the hope of repairing them and turning a quick profit.
> As the price of TVs keeps dropping, this is a losing proposition,
> IMO]
> > The ones that failed tod me that they had to list as many things as
> > possible, rather than work to move inventory. They ended up with
> > overflowing warehouses of crap.
> Exactly. They don't know what they have so they just stockpile it
> in the *hope* that someone will express a (financial) interest in it.
> > I bought about 60 1RU high NTSC modulators
> > and every other rack mount item the yhad for a couple hundred, after they
> > shut down. They had wanted thousands for this stuff. Ne outdoor paging
> > speakers with a talkback microphone: They wanted $35. I paid $5, for the
> > four that were left. They are part of my home security. One for each door,
> > and one for the end of my driveway.
> I "rescue" a fair bit of kit that would otherwise end up as scrap
> (because finding someone who would have a use for it -- for free -- is
> too much work, given the amount of "stuff" that is donated, weekly.)
>
> It is also exciting because you encounter things that you hadn't previously
> considered as "existing". And, definitely wouldn't consider *buying*!
>
> E.g., I rescued the RGBW form of this:
> <https://www.lumenpulse.com/products/2244/lumenbeam-grande-color-changing>
> and have one mounted in my garage.
>
> [Think: how would you alert a *deaf* driver of <something> while entering
> or exiting the garage?]
> > You shouldn't be in that business, if you don't know Electronics. I worked
> > for an Asset Recovery company that scrapped business computers, and
> > industrial electronics. Nothing stayed around, for long. We got visits from
> > professors from the EE school in Gainesville, along with surplus stores
> > buying truckloads.
> Most of the places I've been associated with simply don't have *space* to
> "store" stuff. A new CEO was hired at one such place. When introduced
> to her (me being the "old/long-timer"), she asked if I had any advice
> for her as she started this job.
>
> "Think of where you're going to move something before you accept it!"
>
> It seemed obvious to her. What she didn't realize was how she'd be doing
> that EVERY DAY. *Not* having places in mind would mean you'll end up
> refusing lots of donations -- and, setting a tone in your donor community
> (leading to a loss of future donations).
> > At that time there was a severe shortage of 256K RAM. I
> > was pulling them off Unisys boards, cleaning up the pins and sold thousands
> > for $2.75 each. At that time I could recognize over 500 different types of
> > ICs and a large solder pot made short work of boards.

Most thrift stores around here don't accept electronics, because of the County's requirements that it be hauled to a specific site for recycling. At my last home, a lot of it was donated to the Vocational Electronics classes for the students. They used to bring me car loads of stuff to trade for parts they wanted.
I was picking up computers and monitors from a lt of places, until the County screwed everyone up.

Tabby <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 19:44:57 UTC+1, Tabby wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 10:14:04 UTC+1, Rob wrote:
>> > Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 04:22:37 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
>> > >> On 10/10/2021 1:19 PM, Tabby wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> >> Why such tiny cars?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > the downsides of huge cars outweigh the upsides. They're a pain when most
>> > >> > roads, parking etc were built for horse & small buggy. And having had 2,
>> > >> > frankly they're pointless.
>> > >> We don't have tiny roads. Why didn't you widen those "buggy trails"
>> > >> when the automobile came along? I imagine you brought your plumbing
>> > >> indoors so "tradition" can't explain it...
>> > >
>> > > A lot have been widened. They're still too small for US cars. A lot can't be without a huge amount of demolition of buildings from the 1800s or often many centuries earlier.
>> > Our standard parking space is 2.5m wide. But spaces of 2.3m also
>> > exist. That is narrow even for a larger European car but a Tesla
>> > will not be able to open its doors when parked there.
>> There are also many garages that can only just squeeze in a euro sized car - and many old ones that aren;t big enough for today's cars.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMWHYBi7kG8
> the only thing extreme about that is the chap's determination.

Ha when you placed this link I was already expecting to see this particular
clip so I checked and I was right :-)

The typical American probably will not be able (and willing) to do
this...

On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 5:14:04 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 04:22:37 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 10/10/2021 1:19 PM, Tabby wrote:
> >
> >> >> Why such tiny cars?
> >> >
> >> > the downsides of huge cars outweigh the upsides. They're a pain when most
> >> > roads, parking etc were built for horse & small buggy. And having had 2,
> >> > frankly they're pointless.
> >> We don't have tiny roads. Why didn't you widen those "buggy trails"
> >> when the automobile came along? I imagine you brought your plumbing
> >> indoors so "tradition" can't explain it...
> >
> > A lot have been widened. They're still too small for US cars. A lot can't be without a huge amount of demolition of buildings from the 1800s or often many centuries earlier.
> Our standard parking space is 2.5m wide. But spaces of 2.3m also
> exist. That is narrow even for a larger European car but a Tesla
> will not be able to open its doors when parked there.

2.3 m = 7.55 ft

"it will likely never dip below 7.5 feet wide"
"A width of 8.5 feet is most common when accommodating wider cars"
https://www.propark.com/2020/10/27/how-wide-is-a-parking-space/

8.5 ft = 2.59 m

Sounds to me like these are pretty similar.

Tesla model 3 width = 72.8″, aka 6' 1" = 1.85 m

Sure seems like the doors can be opened in a 2.3 m space. I know I've had to manage with that much space and my car is 6" wider. Tight, but I can do it. Ironically it's the gull wing doors that won't open that close to another car. They require spacing assuming the door swings in a box, so the wider swing it needs at the top must be present at the bottom in spite of the fact that cars taper in.

--

Rick C.

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On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 5:18:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 7:21:53 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> >> DecadentLinux...@decadence.org <DecadentLinux...@decadence.org> wrote:
> >> > Convection is an atmospheric, planetary gravity based thing. We
> >> > sit under over 14 psi of atmosphere and if we heat some up, it rises
> >> > within colder "air" of the same makeup.
> >> >
> >> > Radiation drives ALL convection. IR radiation. Even heated sinks
> >> > meant to remove heat from one location and transfer it to the air use
> >> > radiation to heat the air which then moves away from the sink
> >> > allowing the process to repeat and continue. Even if those sinks
> >> > form "convection currents".
> >> I think you forgot about the 3rd form: conduction.
> >> There is conduction between the water and the outside metal, and
> >> between the metal and the air.
> >> > Besides us calling them "convectors" would sound silly. We do not
> >> > call our kitchen ovens "Convection Boxes".
> >> For some reason, the type that is put in recessed areas in the floor
> >> is called convector here. No idea why, as they operate on the same
> >> principle.
> >
> > I think people get confused about convection and think the term only applies to "natural" convection which is gravity based. Convection simply refers to the movement of heat by the movement of fluid where fluid includes gasses. Induced convection by the use of a fan or pump is still convection. When the coils and fan of a heat pump are separated from the compressor, this is often referred to as a convector.
>
> What I mean is that while these under-floor-mounted units are properly
> called convectors by everyone, the wall-mounted units are usually called
> "radiators" although they barely radiate and mostly use convection.

That is my point. When using *natural* convection such a radiator must have clearance around the furniture to allow room for the air to move without obstruction. There is very little force moving the air and with obstruction you will get less heat transferred.

They put heating devices near windows to counter the natural drafts that fall from them when cold. Curtains become problematic when a radiator is below the window. Putting a chair or couch in front of one messes it up terribly.

> > Of course ovens are convectors. We call them ovens by convention, but you can buy a convection oven that includes a fan for forced convection, cooking food much faster and with different texture on the outside. This can even be combined with a microwave.
>
> My oven has a "grill" section that sends IR radiation from above.
> It can be used to give a texture to meat or quiche, for example.
> But normally it if course uses convection.

The top mounted coil is considered a broiler here. Ovens use a bottom mounted coil because that will convect. A top mounted coil creates a very hot top of the oven and not so hot bottom. Not very good for many things you would bake.

Funny, google normally tells you how many hits on a search. I just did one to check a spelling and that info is absent.

--

Rick C.

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On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 5:38:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I don't agree. Typically they can scan much faster than I can bag. They end up helping me because I'm gumming up the works.
>
> I agree one has to be fast and efficient. I always try to select
> a checkout where there is one person before me, so I can put the
> items on the belt while waiting for them to be handled, and when
> the cashier starts to scan my items I can fully concentrate on
> bagging them and don't have to put more items on the belt. With
> a quick cashier it can be impossible to completely keep up.
> But usually I reasonably manage, unless the previous customer is
> blocking my access for some time and I get behind.

I would use the self scanners more often, but they slow them down because fast scanning requires a bit of training to prevent duplicates. With the slow scanning I end up with duplicates because I expect anything computerized to be fast and rescan until it beeps an acknowledgement. Unfortunately if the item is in the beam at that time it gets scanned again. I'm not very patient with things I already don't like.

One funny in Puerto Rico... they call bananas something different in the stores (in this case it was Amigo aka Walmart) that is probably a specific type. So if you type in "banana" to the lookup, it doesn't find it. Search for it by picture and enter it, at that point it says I bought a pound of "bananas"!!! Why the crap can't I search on bananas?

> > They've tried something like that at Giant around DC. It used a hand scanner. But I never figured out quite how it worked. They still need to have a way to prevent people putting stuff in the cart and bagging it without scanning and paying for it. I'm not sure they still do that.
>
> In my supermarket the conditions for use make you agree to random
> checks and when it doesn't match to be treated as a shoplifter.
> That is why I personally do not use the system. I'm afraid that at
> one time I forget to scan something and I don't want to be treated
> as a shoplifter. So I use the oldfashioned checkouts that are
> still there.

It is so much simpler to just use a system that prevents mistakes and false claims of shoplifting.

Once I've paid for stuff I put the receipt away and won't pull it out again to show at the door unless they pay me the "retrieval" fee, currently $10. In Puerto Rico the Walmarts have door checkers who look like guards, but if I just keep walking they don't ask me to stop. They only seem to check *some* receipts. Not sure what good they are. I used to do the same thing at Costco in the mainland. Once in a while someone would get highly indignant and follow me out to the parking lot. They *never* walk in front of you, only behind. I also did that at a Best Buy where I bought a netbook and paid in the computer department. Again, someone walked out, but only behind me and got my tag number. But once they checked their video I'm sure they realized I had paid.

--

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On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 5:45:49 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Over here houses are normally multi story or even appartment buildings,
> >> and the floors always are concrete slabs. Bathrooms are usually not
> >> on the ground floor (where there would be crawl space below the floor)
> >> and the shaft with the drain pipe in my case does not include the incoming
> >> water pipe, only drains and air ducts for ventilation. Water is
> >> distributed "horizontally" in the floors.
> >
> > Yeah, you seem to be thinking this heat exchanger has to be near the bathrooms. I've already explained that the best place for this is near the entrance of cold water and egress of waste water and in particular near the hot water heater if possible. Think about the connections to be made. If you have multistory structures, then by definition you have plumbing in the vertical walls. Once you realize the bathroom location has nothing to do with the matter you will see this is a simple matter.
> I think the temperature differential of the waste water is already
> so miniscule that it would waste a lot of it when transporting the
> water (that may be like 30 deg C) all the way to an entrance and
> heat water coming in there.
>
> The system used here does not heat the water going into the water
> heater, but it heats the cold water going into the tap. As the
> (of course thermostatic) tap mixes hot water from the heater with
> "cold" water, heating that cold water will change the mixing ratio
> making you use less of the hot water, thus saving energy.
>
> It is only practical to do this "near" the shower, as you need
> to connect both the drain and the cold water pipe only to the tap.
> (you don't want to heat any other cold water tap)

I think you don't really understand what is happening. This conversation is getting very long and pointless. Please give your idea a try. Let us know how it works out.

BTW, you can get the same result by running room temperature water through the heat exchanger. As I've pointed out in a post, it's not necessary to have 30 °C water. The water entering the home is much colder than room temperature. So even warming it up to 25 °C is a big savings in energy.

I think we've talked this to death. Enjoy.

--

Rick C.
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On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 5:48:03 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> it would be installed at at the shower where it's used
> >
> > So an exchanger for every bath? Sounds expensive. Install one for the house and go Cadillac.
> We usually can count the number of showers in a house on the
> fingers of one hand. In my house, I need only a single finger.
>
> This is not for baths. Of course it would be possible to somehow
> store the heat of the bath water and re-use it for someone else
> who takes a shower while you drain the bath, but it all becomes
> too cumbersome.

Ok, whatever. I shower in the bath tub. My homes have at least 2 baths/showers. No point in installing two such exchangers when one works just as well if not better because of being able to spend the money on making a single very good one rather than two or three limited devices.

--

Rick C.

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