On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 7:01:05 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2021-10-12, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 8:06:21 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 00:47:34 UTC+1, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> >> > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 16.53.30 UTC+2 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
> >> > > Yeah, you seem to be thinking this heat exchanger has to be near the bathrooms. I've already explained that the best place for this is near the entrance of cold water and egress of waste water and in particular near the hot water heater if possible. Think about the connections to be made. If you have multistory structures, then by definition you have plumbing in the vertical walls. Once you realize the bathroom location has nothing to do with the matter you will see this is a simple matter.
> >> > >
> >> > I guess for a shower with a thermostat you could put it on the cold water right at the shower, and the thermostat would
> >> > adjust the mix using less hot water and more warmed up cold water
> >> if the shower uses only its own drain water to warm the cold feed, no stat needed. I tihnk this is how showers will go at some point, the tray will double as aheat exchanger.
> >
> > That's a bad idea. Then you need a heat exchanger for EACH shower. One unit can serve the entire house if you do it right.
> But then more heat is lost in the drain plumbing before the heat
> excchanger, and more is lost in the return plumbing. and if anyone
> flushes, your output drops dramatically.

What is "return plumbing"??? That's the point. The return is to the water heater which is often right at the entry point of the cold water and the exit point of the waste water. Every house I own is like this (three so far).

> For best results you want equal volumes of water flowing through the
> heat exchanger, so greatest efficinecy is when installed near the
> shower and used with a point-of-use water heater

This is typical engineer overthinking a problem. As someone pointed out previously, this is a device that is not overly effective no matter what you do. Trying to add one to each bath in the house (most places have more than one) will use more space and be more expensive to install. It is a nice, passive device and will work just fine with a single well designed heat exchanger rather than two or three inferior units.

I think the big difference is the point of use heating rather than a water heater. With a water heater the best solution is to use a single heat exchanger in the path to the hot water heater and waste water egress. With heat bath having a point of use water heater the better solution might be to install multiple heat exchangers, but will be a lot more expense or much lower quality/effectiveness.

--

Rick C.

+-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:11:29 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
> > On 10/12/2021 2:13 AM, Rob wrote:
> >> Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 04:22:37 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
> >>>> On 10/10/2021 1:19 PM, Tabby wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>> Why such tiny cars?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> the downsides of huge cars outweigh the upsides. They're a pain when
> >>>>> most roads, parking etc were built for horse & small buggy. And having
> >>>>> had 2, frankly they're pointless.
> >>>> We don't have tiny roads. Why didn't you widen those "buggy trails" when
> >>>> the automobile came along? I imagine you brought your plumbing indoors
> >>>> so "tradition" can't explain it...
> >>>
> >>> A lot have been widened. They're still too small for US cars. A lot can't
> >>> be without a huge amount of demolition of buildings from the 1800s or
> >>> often many centuries earlier.
> >>
> >> Our standard parking space is 2.5m wide. But spaces of 2.3m also exist..
> >> That is narrow even for a larger European car but a Tesla will not be able
> >> to open its doors when parked there.
> >
> > A standard "2 car garage" door is 16 ft wide (4.88m). A single width door
> > is half that -- 2.44m. Note that the doors of the vehicle are rarely
> > open when passing through the doorway!
> What I described is an outdoor parking space. The distance between
> the lines is 2.5m. When you park between two cars already parked
> alongside, you have 2.5m - the width of a car available to open the
> doors, because you can use the space left by the next car parked
> alongside. Of course that does not work in a garage, it needs to be
> wider at least internally. The external door can still be 2.5 m.
>
> My car is 1.65m wide. So that leaves me 85cm available for door
> opening when parked in a 2.5m space (and similar cars parked alongside,
> all neatly in the center). That is ample space.
> With a 2.3m space it is only 65cm and starts to become more difficult,
> however a Tesla model X is 2m wide and clearly will have difficulty in
> all our spaces, and I will have difficulty when such a car is parked next
> to me as it cuts away 20cm from my door opening space.

A Tesla model X is hardly typical of any class of auto in the US other than perhaps full sized pickups. It is two inches wider than a Chevrolet Colorado ZR2. Why did you pick that particular car?

> > But, the demands on a parking space are different than those of a roadway.
> >
> > A typical traffic lane is 12 ft wide. often reduced to 10 ft in urban areas
> > (slower traffic patterns). Wider lanes for highways, etc.
> A standard highway traffic lane is 3.5 m here (11.5 feet), but narrower
> lanes (a feet or so less) exist where the layout of existing highways
> has been modified to accomodate an extra lane.
> A guideline for a two-way residential street is a total width of 7.2
> meter (23 feet) from curb to curb, but that is just a guideline and
> narrower streets do exist, especially in old cities and in residential
> neighborhoods without through traffic.
> (called "cauliflower neighbourhoods" here: there is one large feeder
> road which splits up in ever smaller roads all ending in cul-de-sacs)

I don't plan to bring my X to Puerto Rico because of the narrow roads and some of the drivers. That car is so good on the highway, but in crowded traffic it's bulk prevents it from being as nimble as I like. I was surprised today to find that it gets its best mileage in stop and go traffic on the highway. At one point it read 243 Wh/mile! That's model 3 mileage territory. At 70+ mph it is more like 333 Wh/mile. At 60 it's not so bad, closer to 300 Wh/mile. In stop and go traffic the regen braking mitigates the stop and go and the reduced speeds lets it get the best mileage. Surprising.

My Kia has a real time mileage readout. It gets around 20 mpg going up steep hills at 65 mph and is engine braking back down the other side. It's fun to see the average come down a little on the uphill and then see it go back up on the downhill. It really seems to do well over the steep ridges in Puerto Rico. After the drive to the airport and back it's usually over 30 mpg. Enough city driving brings it back down to 26 mpg or so. When I drive it I miss the auto pilot though. Sometimes it's hard to switch back and forth. Call it muscle memory, sometimes I'm expecting the car to be driving and I forget I need to steer. The Kia does a fair impersonation with the lane minder that tries to keep you in the lane. Like bowling with gutter guards. lol

--

Rick C.

-+-+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 10/12/2021 11:37 AM, Tabby wrote:
> On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 01:41:33 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/11/2021 5:04 PM, Tabby wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 00:46:19 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 10/11/2021 4:38 PM, Tabby wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 04:22:37 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/10/2021 1:19 PM, Tabby wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why such tiny cars?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the downsides of huge cars outweigh the upsides. They're a pain
>>>>>>> when most roads, parking etc were built for horse & small buggy.
>>>>>>> And having had 2, frankly they're pointless.
>>>>>> We don't have tiny roads. Why didn't you widen those "buggy
>>>>>> trails" when the automobile came along? I imagine you brought your
>>>>>> plumbing indoors so "tradition" can't explain it...
>>>>>
>>>>> A lot have been widened. They're still too small for US cars. A lot
>>>>> can't be without a huge amount of demolition of buildings from the
>>>>> 1800s or often many centuries earlier.
>>>> You'll note that many US cities were settled before 1700. By the mid
>>>> 1700's, the "country" was established.
>>>>
>>>> Yet, in all of those places, they managed to widen "cow paths" to
>>>> accommodate horse drawn carriages and then automobiles, lorries, etc.
>>>
>>> and?
>> and you could have done similarly.
>
> Interesting that you have such an opinion on a situation you plainly don't
> understand.

Sure I understand! Tradition, history, etc.

Here, that has little impact in decisions. Esp if you're preserving
a 300 year old building (just the exterior! "Tradition" isn't
going to convince you to take a shit in a box or deprive yourself
of running water, electricity, heat, internet, etc. -- they're just
things the Saxons overlooked, eh?)

Paul Revere's house -- a personage most americans would recognize:

<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=paul+revere%27s+house&t=ffsb&ia=web&iaxm=about>

I wonder why Paul built his house so close to the roadway?
Note that Ira and Naomi Greenberg's house to the north has been demolished
and replaced by some nondescript building. As has Byrne and Brianna
Devin's to the south. (Perhaps EVERYONE in england is some noteworthy
personage who's home needs to be preserved? Or, maybe King George
slept around...? "Geo slept here -- and here, too!")

Feel free to inspect the widths of the streets using the satellite view
in a neighborhood that's more than 300 years old to see how they've
handled the issue of "larger cars", school buses, emergency equipment,
etc.

You can similarly look at aerials of NYC, Washington DC, etc.

And, to show americans aren't the only ones who manage to make
way for wider roads, note the surroundings of the Coliseum
have a shitload of PAVEMENT!

<https://www.google.com/maps/place/Colosseum/@41.8904019,12.4917749,165m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x28f1c82e908503c4!8m2!3d41.8902102!4d12.4922309>

(My god, have they no respect for tradition??)

>> Here, in The West, most towns were settled later than Back East. Yet, even
>> soon after their establishment, streets were very wide (to allow more than
>> one "coach" to pass each other).
>
> Yes. Here that has not normally been the case.

Because, here, they learned from cities back east who
resorted to demolishing buildings in order to make allowances
for wider roadways. Do you think NYC had 6 lanes of traffic
between buildings when it was settled in the 1620's?

>> And, nothing stops them from widening streets to this day; even if it
>> means condemning buildings on one or both sides of a roadway to use their
>> land for roadway.
>
> that and the expense are what stops it happening more. Mass destruction of
> cities would be a bit dumb.

Letting cities become irrelevant because they can't support modern
advances would be dumber.

"Let's not put mass transit in the city, it will interfere with
the existing structures and change the character of the city."

>> Or, converting streets to one-way traffic, only -- even if
>
> we have a lot of those. Their introduction pissed a lot of people off.

People are ALWAYS pissed off. Folks were grumbling because
the best parking spaces were set aside for handicapped visitors.
Or, smoking was banned indoors (bars?). Or the speed limit dropped
to 55. Or, mandatory use of seat belts.

>> already many lanes wide.
>
> 'Many lanes wide' is a foreign concept to us. Most lanes I've ever seen is 4
> on some major motorways. Mways are more often 2 or 3 lanes per side. Within
> towns & cities forget it.

When I exit my residential subdivision, I turn onto a 6 lane road (3+3,
not counting "turn lanes" or shoulders or the median strip dividing traffic
directions). And I'm located on the very fringe of town. There are many
places where the roadway is 8 or more lanes wide.

Speed limits *in* town are 45MPH. Be really careful when you try to
exit that traffic to turn into a storefront! Likewise, careful when
you try to pull back out into traffic.

>> A common tactic in large cities is to have streets alternate direction. In
>> some places, the direction changes with time of day!!
>>
>> Clinging to the past is one sure way of STAYING in the past.
>
> Not sure that has much relevance to our situation. What we have works and
> makes a lot more sense than mass-scale demolition.

It's only mass-scale because you've clung to it for so long, instead of
incrementally moving forward as times changed. We'll have flying cars
and you'll be arguing against making space for "landing pads"...

On 10/12/2021 11:44 AM, Tabby wrote:
> On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 10:14:04 UTC+1, Rob wrote:
>> Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 04:22:37 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2021 1:19 PM, Tabby wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Why such tiny cars?
>>>>>
>>>>> the downsides of huge cars outweigh the upsides. They're a pain when
>>>>> most roads, parking etc were built for horse & small buggy. And
>>>>> having had 2, frankly they're pointless.
>>>> We don't have tiny roads. Why didn't you widen those "buggy trails"
>>>> when the automobile came along? I imagine you brought your plumbing
>>>> indoors so "tradition" can't explain it...
>>>
>>> A lot have been widened. They're still too small for US cars. A lot
>>> can't be without a huge amount of demolition of buildings from the 1800s
>>> or often many centuries earlier.
>> Our standard parking space is 2.5m wide. But spaces of 2.3m also exist.
>> That is narrow even for a larger European car but a Tesla will not be able
>> to open its doors when parked there.
>
> There are also many garages that can only just squeeze in a euro sized car -
> and many old ones that aren;t big enough for today's cars.

My neighbor has a 1970-ish Cougar. It won't fit in his garage
(it will, but it will make accessing his workbench difficult...
and, he's already got two cars in there, now, so...)

Easy: Build another garage. (and our lots are rather small, here)

On 10/12/2021 11:41 AM, Tabby wrote:
> On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 02:35:59 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/11/2021 4:40 PM, Tabby wrote:
>>
>>>> Because you *do* that for folks you care about. This cuts into the time
>>>> that *I* have to pursue my interests. As well as my day-to-day
>>>> lifestyle... (when I am awake, when I eat, how I dress, etc. on those days
>>>> when I have to interact with her circles)
>>>
>>> I don't think I've ever expected my family to take any part in my
>>> electronics. In a healthy life one does take some time for these things,
>>> despite it being in short supply. A lot of folk are quite time wasteful.
>
>> You don't discuss your passions with those close to you?
>
> I do, but I don't expect people to take part in them. Electronics is to many meaningless.

I don't expect my other half to spend time at the places where
I recycle kit. Or, sorting books at the library. She doesn't
expect me to paint alongside her or attend her "painting get-togethers"
with fellow artists.

But, she does enjoy the fact that I will accompany her to special
art-related events -- despite it being as appealing (to me) as watching
water boil! Or, an event for a friend of hers, etc. It shows that I
am interested in what makes her happy. And, will take on some level
of "relationship overhead" to facilitate that.

I don't expect her to write code or critique my documentation or
help me assemble board. But, being an attentive listener as
I describe a current challenge -- or, an exciting solution -- is
her way of showing interest in *my* joys.

In each case, our opinions often prove insightful to each other
as they give us another set of eyes/ears/brains to evaluate
something that we've stopped seeing objectively.

"This part of your painting is uninteresting; my eyes are led OUT
of the painting by this shape"

"Why can't you track the user's position and alter the options
that you offer him based on what he is likely to want to do in that
location?"

On 10/12/2021 3:08 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:
> Most thrift stores around here don't accept electronics, because of the
> County's requirements that it be hauled to a specific site for recycling.

So, they don't want to be forced to dispose of it (if unsellable)
in that manner? Possible esp as many folks wouldn't be able to assess the
potential value (or working condition!) of a donation, on-the-spot.

[E.g., we get LOTS of LCD monitors. I'd estimate about half of
them have bad inverters. For a thrift store, that *might* be
an easy test to implement BEFORE accepting one as a donation.
But, once accepted, discovering "it ain't worth shit" leaves them
holding the bag...]

> At my last home, a lot of it was donated to the Vocational Electronics
> classes for the students. They used to bring me car loads of stuff to trade
> for parts they wanted. I was picking up computers and monitors from a lt of
> places, until the County screwed everyone up.

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>> My car is 1.65m wide. So that leaves me 85cm available for door
>> opening when parked in a 2.5m space (and similar cars parked alongside,
>> all neatly in the center). That is ample space.
>> With a 2.3m space it is only 65cm and starts to become more difficult,
>> however a Tesla model X is 2m wide and clearly will have difficulty in
>> all our spaces, and I will have difficulty when such a car is parked next
>> to me as it cuts away 20cm from my door opening space.
>
> A Tesla model X is hardly typical of any class of auto in the US other than perhaps full sized pickups. It is two inches wider than a Chevrolet Colorado ZR2. Why did you pick that particular car?

Because I see the Tesla owners fight with this problem here.
Tesla owners want a Tesla because it is a Tesla. Problems like the
size are considered secondary. The model 3 is a little better, but it
is still at the high end of car size here. A smaller Tesla is required
for it to fit in the system here, but instead every announced new
model is larger.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 1:46:58 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/12/2021 3:08 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:
> > Most thrift stores around here don't accept electronics, because of the
> > County's requirements that it be hauled to a specific site for recycling.
> So, they don't want to be forced to dispose of it (if unsellable)
> in that manner? Possible esp as many folks wouldn't be able to assess the
> potential value (or working condition!) of a donation, on-the-spot.
>
> [E.g., we get LOTS of LCD monitors. I'd estimate about half of
> them have bad inverters. For a thrift store, that *might* be
> an easy test to implement BEFORE accepting one as a donation.
> But, once accepted, discovering "it ain't worth shit" leaves them
> holding the bag...]

'Vets Helping Vets' would repair as many as possible. The unrepairable crap can be turned in at any of the County's transfer stations, or at the landfill where it is shipped to a place that scraps them. Instead, peoplee just turn them in a scrap, even if they work.

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>> What I mean is that while these under-floor-mounted units are properly
>> called convectors by everyone, the wall-mounted units are usually called
>> "radiators" although they barely radiate and mostly use convection.
>
> That is my point. When using *natural* convection such a radiator must have clearance around the furniture to allow room for the air to move without obstruction. There is very little force moving the air and with obstruction you will get less heat transferred.

Not AROUND! ABOVE!
The convected air does not move sideways, it moves UP.
So yes, you must have some free space above the radiator and not encase
it such a way that air cannot readily escape upwards.
But in front of the radiator you need only enough space for air to flow
alongside it, as already remarked something like 5cm (2").

> They put heating devices near windows to counter the natural drafts that fall from them when cold. Curtains become problematic when a radiator is below the window. Putting a chair or couch in front of one messes it up terribly.

Curtains mess it up when they hang in front of the radiator.
Not because they cover the front, but because all rising air will
be trapped behind the curtain.
Furniture does not do that.

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tesla model 3 width = 72.8″, aka 6' 1" = 1.85 m
>
> Sure seems like the doors can be opened in a 2.3 m space. I know I've had to manage with that much space and my car is 6" wider. Tight, but I can do it.

Most people do not feel comfortable parking their wide car in such
a narrow space because they expect the other driver (not themselves)
to open the door and bump it into their door, leaving those nasty
dents and scratches in your doors.

Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 1:46:58 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/12/2021 3:08 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:
>> > Most thrift stores around here don't accept electronics, because of the
>> > County's requirements that it be hauled to a specific site for recycling.
>> So, they don't want to be forced to dispose of it (if unsellable)
>> in that manner? Possible esp as many folks wouldn't be able to assess the
>> potential value (or working condition!) of a donation, on-the-spot.
>>
>> [E.g., we get LOTS of LCD monitors. I'd estimate about half of
>> them have bad inverters. For a thrift store, that *might* be
>> an easy test to implement BEFORE accepting one as a donation.
>> But, once accepted, discovering "it ain't worth shit" leaves them
>> holding the bag...]
>
> 'Vets Helping Vets' would repair as many as possible. The unrepairable crap can be turned in at any of the County's transfer stations, or at the landfill where it is shipped to a place that scraps them. Instead, peoplee just turn them in a scrap, even if they work.

It is different per country. Here, we can turn in crap (or working
devices) as individuals and have it recycled "for free", but when
being an organization or for some other reason coming in with unreasonable
amounts for an individual (e.g. 10 monitors at a time), there is a fee.

On 2021-10-12, Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote:
> Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
>> But then more heat is lost in the drain plumbing before the heat
>> excchanger, and more is lost in the return plumbing. and if anyone
>> flushes, your output drops dramatically.
>>
>> For best results you want equal volumes of water flowing through the
>> heat exchanger, so greatest efficinecy is when installed near the
>> shower and used with a point-of-use water heater
>
> No need for the latter. The heat exchanger heats the cold water
> fed to the thermostatic mixing tap.

Sure if you will accept a 30% cut in performance there's no need.

--
Jasen.

On 10/13/2021 12:31 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
>> [E.g., we get LOTS of LCD monitors. I'd estimate about half of them have
>> bad inverters. For a thrift store, that *might* be an easy test to
>> implement BEFORE accepting one as a donation. But, once accepted,
>> discovering "it ain't worth shit" leaves them holding the bag...]
>
> 'Vets Helping Vets' would repair as many as possible. The unrepairable crap
> can be turned in at any of the County's transfer stations, or at the
> landfill where it is shipped to a place that scraps them. Instead, peoplee
> just turn them in a scrap, even if they work.

We see the opposite behavior -- everyone wants you to THINK that the item
they are donating ("dropping off") still works. In many cases, it is
obvious from their expression or the condition of the item that it
really *doesn't*.

As they know that we try to refurbish/reuse items, I think they feel
that if they say it's broken, we might be less inclined to accept it.
Or, be less grateful for it.

Even if you say it works, we're going to have to verify that (we
can't just pass it on, as is, regardless -- so, we're going to
end up powering it up and will discover if it *doesn't* work,
at that time).

OTOH, if you tell us that it does NOT work -- and, hopefully, tell
us what's broken -- we can eliminate (or expedite) the "triage" step.
It's very obvious to donors that we don't have much staff so PLEASE
don't make us waste time, needlessly, because of an issue of pride!

The problem with broken items is having staff that can affect the
appropriate repairs. And, a place to store the item until those
repairs can be made. (And, also, the ability to understand
when some failures are an indication of a design flaw or hazard
that *shouldn't* be repaired!)

[I've a little room where volunteers pile items that I need to
evaluate -- because they don't recognize them or because they
"look fancy". So, my first act on arrival, each week, is to
sort through this pile and decide what to keep and what to
dismantle. Then, figure out how I'm going to distribute the
"kept" stuff]

Obviously, it takes a lot less time to burn in a "likely working"
monitor than it does to repair one that clearly isn't! When you
are getting hundreds at a time, you want to be able to quickly
"process" them -- before the next batch arrives!

I used to take home 10 monitors at a time and repair them at home.
Needless to say, SWMBO got tired of this! ("I can't exercise in
the living room because the floor is covered with disassembled
monitors!!")

[change of gears...]

If the county's policy is screwing you over, can you look in a
*neighboring* county? Or, are your counties huge (thousands
of square miles), as they are, here?

Or, can you contact the county official "in charge" and see
if you can "take some of their work off their shoulders"?

On 10/13/2021 1:28 AM, Rob wrote:
> It is different per country. Here, we can turn in crap (or working
> devices) as individuals and have it recycled "for free", but when
> being an organization or for some other reason coming in with unreasonable
> amounts for an individual (e.g. 10 monitors at a time), there is a fee.

Those sorts of policies are silly. If you want to encourage a behavior, you
don't charge the folks who can make the biggest impact towards your goals!

The local dump (land fill) charges commercial users but lets residents
dump items for free. The thinking being that they want to discourage
use of the dump by those larger users -- but "owe" the residents access
to that facility. Charging residents would lead to "illegal dumping"
(which is a common practice) where the items are dumped practically
*anywhere*.

For recycling, the alternative is for folks to simply discard the
items that you are going to charge them to recycle. Not the sort
of election you want them to make -- under ANY circumstances!

Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
> On 2021-10-12, Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote:
>> Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
>>> But then more heat is lost in the drain plumbing before the heat
>>> excchanger, and more is lost in the return plumbing. and if anyone
>>> flushes, your output drops dramatically.
>>>
>>> For best results you want equal volumes of water flowing through the
>>> heat exchanger, so greatest efficinecy is when installed near the
>>> shower and used with a point-of-use water heater
>>
>> No need for the latter. The heat exchanger heats the cold water
>> fed to the thermostatic mixing tap.
>
> Sure if you will accept a 30% cut in performance there's no need.

There is no cut in performance, if anything there is a boost because
the pipes are shorter.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 3:30:04 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> My car is 1.65m wide. So that leaves me 85cm available for door
> >> opening when parked in a 2.5m space (and similar cars parked alongside,
> >> all neatly in the center). That is ample space.
> >> With a 2.3m space it is only 65cm and starts to become more difficult,
> >> however a Tesla model X is 2m wide and clearly will have difficulty in
> >> all our spaces, and I will have difficulty when such a car is parked next
> >> to me as it cuts away 20cm from my door opening space.
> >
> > A Tesla model X is hardly typical of any class of auto in the US other than perhaps full sized pickups. It is two inches wider than a Chevrolet Colorado ZR2. Why did you pick that particular car?
> Because I see the Tesla owners fight with this problem here.
> Tesla owners want a Tesla because it is a Tesla. Problems like the
> size are considered secondary. The model 3 is a little better, but it
> is still at the high end of car size here. A smaller Tesla is required
> for it to fit in the system here, but instead every announced new
> model is larger.

My first car was a 1963 Pontiac Catalina Convertible. It was 211.9 inches long and the width was 78.7 inches. It had a 6.4 liter engine and weighed 3685 lb /1671.488 kg I had to carefully park it with the front bumper touching the back wall of our garage, and slightly bow the hinged doors to close them. The building had been a small house the original owners lived in, while they built their actual home. It was built at the end of WWII, so mid '40s cars fit it with no trouble. Pontiac called this body, 'Wide Track'.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 6:20:52 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/13/2021 12:31 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
> >> [E.g., we get LOTS of LCD monitors. I'd estimate about half of them have
> >> bad inverters. For a thrift store, that *might* be an easy test to
> >> implement BEFORE accepting one as a donation. But, once accepted,
> >> discovering "it ain't worth shit" leaves them holding the bag...]
> >
> > 'Vets Helping Vets' would repair as many as possible. The unrepairable crap
> > can be turned in at any of the County's transfer stations, or at the
> > landfill where it is shipped to a place that scraps them. Instead, peoplee
> > just turn them in a scrap, even if they work.
> We see the opposite behavior -- everyone wants you to THINK that the item
> they are donating ("dropping off") still works. In many cases, it is
> obvious from their expression or the condition of the item that it
> really *doesn't*.
>
> As they know that we try to refurbish/reuse items, I think they feel
> that if they say it's broken, we might be less inclined to accept it.
> Or, be less grateful for it.
>
> Even if you say it works, we're going to have to verify that (we
> can't just pass it on, as is, regardless -- so, we're going to
> end up powering it up and will discover if it *doesn't* work,
> at that time).
>
> OTOH, if you tell us that it does NOT work -- and, hopefully, tell
> us what's broken -- we can eliminate (or expedite) the "triage" step.
> It's very obvious to donors that we don't have much staff so PLEASE
> don't make us waste time, needlessly, because of an issue of pride!
>
> The problem with broken items is having staff that can affect the
> appropriate repairs. And, a place to store the item until those
> repairs can be made. (And, also, the ability to understand
> when some failures are an indication of a design flaw or hazard
> that *shouldn't* be repaired!)
>
> [I've a little room where volunteers pile items that I need to
> evaluate -- because they don't recognize them or because they
> "look fancy". So, my first act on arrival, each week, is to
> sort through this pile and decide what to keep and what to
> dismantle. Then, figure out how I'm going to distribute the
> "kept" stuff]
>
> Obviously, it takes a lot less time to burn in a "likely working"
> monitor than it does to repair one that clearly isn't! When you
> are getting hundreds at a time, you want to be able to quickly
> "process" them -- before the next batch arrives!
>
> I used to take home 10 monitors at a time and repair them at home.
> Needless to say, SWMBO got tired of this! ("I can't exercise in
> the living room because the floor is covered with disassembled
> monitors!!")
>
> [change of gears...]
>
> If the county's policy is screwing you over, can you look in a
> *neighboring* county? Or, are your counties huge (thousands
> of square miles), as they are, here?
>
> Or, can you contact the county official "in charge" and see
> if you can "take some of their work off their shoulders"?

I started by recycling TVs in the mid '60s from a local TV shop that I worked at, after school. Then I sold them from $10 to $540 each. The really rough looking sets that worked, were given away.
The entire county commission voted for the current method, and it is an hour or more round trip to other counties.
Vets Helping Vets repairs/refurbish computers to give to low income Veterans.

On 10/13/2021 3:53 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
> My first car was a 1963 Pontiac Catalina Convertible. It was 211.9 inches
> long and the width was 78.7 inches. It had a 6.4 liter engine and weighed
> 3685 lb /1671.488 kg I had to carefully park it with the front bumper
> touching the back wall of our garage, and slightly bow the hinged doors to
> close them. The building had been a small house the original owners lived
> in, while they built their actual home. It was built at the end of WWII, so
> mid '40s cars fit it with no trouble. Pontiac called this body, 'Wide
> Track'.

There are lots of vehicles now sold that won't fit in a "normal"
garage. I saw a guy at the gas pump next to me with some sort of
"van on steroids"... damn thing was easily 8 ft tall. I jokingly
asked him if it had its own *house*!

A buddy drives a 7L pickup. With 160 (?) gallon expansion gas tank
and a Tommy Lift on the ass end. He doesn't even *think* of trying
to park it in a garage (it won't even fit wholly on his driveway)

Amusingly, it's always in the shop -- dead battery, blown alternator
(IIRC, there are two of each), etc. "You should maybe DRIVE this
thing from time to time..."

On 10/13/2021 4:03 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
> Vets Helping Vets repairs/refurbish computers to give to low income Veterans.

Can someone approach a (large) local business -- or businesses -- and set up
a private transfer of materials from their surplus? I can't see how the county
can *forbid* this. After all, the business can SELL their surplus to anyone
(right? Is it illegal to sell a computer?? I can sell a GUN...) so why not
sell them "in consideration of $1"?

Local news media might embarass the gummit folks if they got wind that
the gummit was preventing vets from repairing SURPLUS/SCRAP computers
for the use of other vets!

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 7:33:58 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/13/2021 4:03 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
> > Vets Helping Vets repairs/refurbish computers to give to low income Veterans.
> Can someone approach a (large) local business -- or businesses -- and set up
> a private transfer of materials from their surplus? I can't see how the county
> can *forbid* this. After all, the business can SELL their surplus to anyone
> (right? Is it illegal to sell a computer?? I can sell a GUN...) so why not
> sell them "in consideration of $1"?
>
> Local news media might embarrass the gummit folks if they got wind that
> the gummit was preventing vets from repairing SURPLUS/SCRAP computers
> for the use of other vets!

Local news? The TV station was sold, closed and moved to Gainesville. Large business? There is only Lockheed Martin. All their junk is shipped to Orlando for disposal. The School board prommised ionce to help. The next day they had filled many large construction dumpsters with their old equipment. This area just doesn't have much industry. Microdyne was the third largest, and I got most of their scrap, before the pland was closed and moved north, 20 years ago.

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
> On 10/13/2021 1:28 AM, Rob wrote:
>> It is different per country. Here, we can turn in crap (or working
>> devices) as individuals and have it recycled "for free", but when
>> being an organization or for some other reason coming in with unreasonable
>> amounts for an individual (e.g. 10 monitors at a time), there is a fee.
>
> Those sorts of policies are silly. If you want to encourage a behavior, you
> don't charge the folks who can make the biggest impact towards your goals!

Well, it costs money to operate the facility (even when there is some
income from certain recycled goods) and individuals pay a tax to the
municipality for processing of waste (collecting household garbage from
the curbs weekly, collecting an old fridge on demand, processing of
recyclable goods and other waste when brought to a recycling center).

Companies do not pay that tax. They are supposed to have a contract
with a private waste management service to collect their large containers
of waste, and also for processing recyclable goods.

To have them collect computer waste you pay by weight.
Dedicated computer equipment recycling companies exist that provide
further service, like securely erasing storage devices before they
leave the facilities. Depeding on the reusability of the equipment
it may be free (as they re-sell the devices) or it may still cost
money.

On 10/13/2021 5:41 AM, Rob wrote:
> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>> On 10/13/2021 1:28 AM, Rob wrote:
>>> It is different per country. Here, we can turn in crap (or working
>>> devices) as individuals and have it recycled "for free", but when
>>> being an organization or for some other reason coming in with unreasonable
>>> amounts for an individual (e.g. 10 monitors at a time), there is a fee.
>>
>> Those sorts of policies are silly. If you want to encourage a behavior, you
>> don't charge the folks who can make the biggest impact towards your goals!
>
> Well, it costs money to operate the facility (even when there is some
> income from certain recycled goods)

Most of the recycling (bottles, cans, etc.) performed by the city
happens at a loss (in terms of direct cost/income). But, there are
intangibles that bias the practice into the favorable column
(e.g., having to open another land fill has high acquisition costs)

> and individuals pay a tax to the
> municipality for processing of waste (collecting household garbage from
> the curbs weekly, collecting an old fridge on demand, processing of
> recyclable goods and other waste when brought to a recycling center).
>
> Companies do not pay that tax. They are supposed to have a contract
> with a private waste management service to collect their large containers
> of waste, and also for processing recyclable goods.

Ah! Here, it is a "free" service (in that the taxes used to support
it aren't enumerated, anywhere).

If individuals are taxed and businesses aren't, then it makes sense
to charge the businesses. (I would question whether or not you'd
want to VISIBLY tax individuals, though, as this gets folks thinking
about it as a "cost")

> To have them collect computer waste you pay by weight.
> Dedicated computer equipment recycling companies exist that provide
> further service, like securely erasing storage devices before they
> leave the facilities. Depeding on the reusability of the equipment
> it may be free (as they re-sell the devices) or it may still cost
> money.

Understood. There are similar organizations, here. And, some folks
(e.g., defense contractors) have very strict/verifiable mechanisms
in place that mandate specific "service providers".

Other firms can drop off or contract for pickup with different
processors of specific items. E.g., there's a firm here that
just processes cardboard. Another handles batteries. etc.

If you want them to pick up your items, then they need to be
compensated -- either as a fee or percentage of the value of the
items being processed. You can, alternatively, drop off items
at their facilty and, as they've incurred no "extra" costs for
acquiring them, receive the market value of the items (in cash).

Some goods require traceability -- up to and including fingerprinting.
E.g., copper commands a decent price. So, lots of "derelicts"
will steal copper pipe from buildings and try to cash it in.
Being able to track who is turning in this stuff gives police a leg up
in chasing them down. (and also discourages the practice)

And others may have to dispose of "surplus property" at
formal auctions, etc. (to ensure those goods are "beyond arm's
reach" transactions).

On 10/13/2021 4:58 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 7:33:58 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/13/2021 4:03 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
>>> Vets Helping Vets repairs/refurbish computers to give to low income
>>> Veterans.
>> Can someone approach a (large) local business -- or businesses -- and set
>> up a private transfer of materials from their surplus? I can't see how
>> the county can *forbid* this. After all, the business can SELL their
>> surplus to anyone (right? Is it illegal to sell a computer?? I can sell a
>> GUN...) so why not sell them "in consideration of $1"?
>>
>> Local news media might embarrass the gummit folks if they got wind that
>> the gummit was preventing vets from repairing SURPLUS/SCRAP computers for
>> the use of other vets!
>
> Local news? The TV station was sold, closed and moved to Gainesville.

Ah. I think we have at least three *commercial* local broadcasters.
From time to time, we'll request air time to make a pitch (aka *beg*)
for some resource (a building in which to operate, certain types of
donated items, etc.)

> Large business? There is only Lockheed Martin. All their junk is shipped to
> Orlando for disposal. The School board prommised ionce to help. The next
> day they had filled many large construction dumpsters with their old
> equipment. This area just doesn't have much industry. Microdyne was the
> third largest, and I got most of their scrap, before the pland was closed
> and moved north, 20 years ago.

What about *businesses*, in general? Shoe stores, grocers, etc.
Can you approach the local chamber of commerce to have them "pitch"
to their members? While it won't likely give you large donations of
identical items (something we really prefer), it may give you a
steady flow of product -- a PoS system from a local restaurant,
an office PC from an accounting firm, etc.

With the county's policies in place, you really need to find an
"advocate" to work on your behalf to make your cause visible
and bypass any "preconceptions" donors might have wrt the
county's program.

Ideally, you'd partner with the county and solve THEIR problem
as well as your own -- at no cost to either of you!

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
> On 10/6/2021 2:52 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>> In article <sjl36c$t67$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
>> says...
>>>
>>> If you want to dispose of it (like your oven and dishwasher),
>>> then you let the folks who sold you the new appliances take it
>>> away with them when they deliver the new units. Be sure to
>>> remove the power cord as the new oven won't come with one!
>>
>> I bought some plug in 240 volt appliances and the delivery company would
>> only install new cords on them. They would not reuse the old ones.
>
> Dunno. I install my own appliances. I just need them to be delivered!
>
>> Around here there is a 'white goods tax' that is suppose to go toward
>> the land fill fees for the large appliances.
>
> You can make use of the local landfills. There is usually a fee
> (for commercial users) that is often waived for residents.
>
> But, you visit at some risk to your vehicle (tires) as you're driving
> *on* compacted trash (which includes metal shards, glass, etc.)
>
> When I drop off batteries for recycling, it is a similarly
> fraught experience. As the batteries are heavy (~50 lb ea),
> I really *want* to drive in as close as possible. But, I
> resist turning the steering wheel and pull off to the side
> of the road as soon as I exit the facility so I can run a hand
> along each tire tread.

Life sounds like hell wherever the fuck you are.

Here's how it works in Chicago.

Anything made of metal you dump in the alley. The scrappers will get it in
in minutes to hours. Hundreds of pounds of leaky lead acid batteries? No
problem, any appliance? No problem. The only thing they will leave is the
CRT from an old TV set. It's an efficient system. Any appliance place that
delivers will haul the old stuff away for free by default. If you scrap
old appliances the electric company will even sometimes "buy" them back
and give a credit on your bill.

Also we're not poor here and don't need to pay extra for appliance cords
or get taxed on them or whatever other frivolouse nonsense you're dealing
with. A new stove with the power cord missing? That some third world shit
right there.

In article <sk7ig2$bn2$1@reader1.panix.com>, presence@MUNGEpanix.com
says...
>
> Also we're not poor here and don't need to pay extra for appliance cords
> or get taxed on them or whatever other frivolouse nonsense you're dealing
> with. A new stove with the power cord missing? That some third world shit
> right there.
>
>
>

Around here we have to buy a new stove or dryer cord every time we get a
new stove or dryer. There are basically 2 types. The 3 and 4 wire
versions.

Last time I bought a stove the store said that I could not use the old
cord if they installed the stove. That install only included putting on
a cord and sliding it about 3 feet to the final place. Being an
electircian I told them to just drop off the stove in the kitchen and
remove the old one. I had already taken the old cord off when they
arrived. They left the stove about 2 feet from the wall where I asked
them to. Then I installed the cord and placed the stove and leveled it
up.

I am not sure if that is some kind of insurance policy of the company or
just a way to get an extra $ 25 or so from us.