When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat.. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.

That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.

I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.

Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.

On 4/24/2023 1:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
>
> That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
>
> I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
>
> Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
>

Does the gear wire have a "C" inside a circle molded on the
side? Your description sounds exactly like not-Campagnolo
gear wire symptoms.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:38:24 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
>
> That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
>
> I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
>
> Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.

If that isn't enough to piss you off. You can't get the small parts and the major subassembly costs as much as a new set of levers. I am getting more and more in the mood to buy a set of manual Dura Ace 1levers

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 12:26:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/24/2023 1:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
> >
> > That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
> >
> > I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
> >
> > Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
> >
> Does the gear wire have a "C" inside a circle molded on the
> side? Your description sounds exactly like not-Campagnolo
> gear wire symptoms.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Well since it is jammed inside the plastic part I can't tell now, But I did take it out of a plastic bag that came with an 11 speed lever set. But I may have put some extra inner cables in there. That set of 11 speed levers had a metal cup that was quite a bit larger than the nib. Then the 11 speed changed to a white plastic that was very slippery and nothing would jam in it and now for the 12 speed they're using a hard black plastic

The 12 speed set came with a wiring set but no shift cables. I just bought a set of 12 speed levers since they are so cheap compared to the 11 speed. And I will be very careful that the nib can't jam in the new right lever. And that will give me a new spare left lever. Discovering how expensive the 12 speed right main assembly was, was sort of shocking. originally I attempted to install the shift cable into the opposite side which has a long outer insertion channel. But that forces you to twist the cable to thread it through that tiny hole in the bottom of the V cable slot. Then I used the same cable in the longer slot which allows you to install the cable without kinking it. But the kink was still there so I couldn't put a lot of pushing force when trying to remove the cable to install a new one.

Campy has been moving from a very mechanically sound design to an el cheapo producto lever. The aluminum ratchet worked very well, the white plastic not too bad but this black plastic casting is not well thought out. They really should offer that part separately. The inner rear I was going to replace it with needed filing to make a clean nib. So obviously this could cause further troubles to other people as well. Campy could make more clearance. Or they could open the hole in the lever so that you can actually SEE that it is going into the correct hole. They made a large hole in the latest 11 speed so that you couldn't miss the proper insertion hole.

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
>
> That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
>
> I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
>
> Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.

As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.

Lou

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 3:59:15 p.m. UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
> >
> > That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
> >
> > I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
> >
> > Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
> As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.
>
> Lou

A lot of the times, where I live, the bike shops don't have Campy cables in stock. Whenever I'm forced to use a non Campy gear cable in my Mirage 9-speed levers, I test fit the end into the brake lever. If the button end of the cable is a tight fit I carefully sand a bit off the circumference until I get a proper fit. Only takes a few seconds to do that and it avoids the headaches people experience with a jammed button end.

Cheers

On 4/24/2023 2:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:38:24 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
>>
>> That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
>>
>> I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
>>
>> Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
>
> If that isn't enough to piss you off. You can't get the small parts and the major subassembly costs as much as a new set of levers. I am getting more and more in the mood to buy a set of manual Dura Ace 1levers
>

Single Ergo-12 bodies are about the same price as
parts+labor+postage for rebuild service on the older
rebuildable levers.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/24/2023 3:59 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
>>
>> That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
>>
>> I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
>>
>> Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
>
> As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.
>
> Lou
>
+1.

That's in every manual, which almost no one reads.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 1:59:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
> >
> > That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
> >
> > I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
> >
> > Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
> As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.

If you used all of those Campy groups perhaps you noticed that the mechanisms in the 9 and 10 were completely different from the 11 and the early 11 was entirely different from the later 11 and the 12 is different still. It made no difference using other cable makers on even the later 11 speed. For that matter, perhaps my problem was that the rotator was damaged when the cable went through the incorrect route. Since you CANNOT see the right mechanism without removing in from the bar and actually looking inside, this is easy to do by FOLLOWING THE FUCKING MANUAL as was told to me. The manual does NOT tell you that you can miss the port, that it will still thread through and if you test it as normal by shifting it and seeing if the cable is moving as your click through the gears, that it will not be in the correct place and still feel normal.

In fact, the later 11 speeds have a large open port so that you can LOOK and see that you're threaded through the correct place. The 12 speed do not. And the hole is so small you cannot see the mechanism inside to assure yourself you're in the correct spot. And the turn of the shift cable is so tight leaving the lever that if you feel the need to use the short route, it forces you to put a kink in the inner wire. It works OK on the longer side if you're very careful and that happens to be the route you could take for hidden cables in modern carbon fiber bikes. I got an email that said that Frank was singing the praises of carbon fiber bikes because I said it was dangerous material. Now you have to picture a man who never rode anything other that touring steel bikes talking about carbon fiber as if he had a clue about it.

The fork that broke and injured me was manufactured incorrectly and that was the source of my injury. But the left leg of the fork was fine. When I recovered my ability to be conscious, I held that fork between two hands, not over a knee or anything like that and the fork leg broke right in half with a simple twist. Of course they make them a LOT stronger now, but the material still depends entirely on the resin for strength to hold the short carbon fibers together and this resin degrades from nothing more than age. It is a two part material that hardens 95% of the way to form. But it continues to harden over a lifespan slowly getting more and more until it begins to crystalize and forms cracks in the resin. If the layup is thick enough this may take a long time to spread dangerously. That's why my C50 was heavier than the usual CF bike of the time.
And my Colnago CLX. These bikes built in Italy were too heavily built for racing so they are presently using the V3R made in China and THEY are breaking.

Ride what you like and believe what you like, but don't pretend that a carbon fiber composite lives forever. Now Time has closely investigated this LONG ago and they use longer stranded man-made material along with the carbon fiber which extends the working life since more resin is covered with the long strands.

On 4/25/2023 10:30 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 1:59:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
>>>
>>> That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
>>>
>>> I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
>>>
>>> Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
>> As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.
>
> If you used all of those Campy groups perhaps you noticed that the mechanisms in the 9 and 10 were completely different from the 11 and the early 11 was entirely different from the later 11 and the 12 is different still. It made no difference using other cable makers on even the later 11 speed. For that matter, perhaps my problem was that the rotator was damaged when the cable went through the incorrect route. Since you CANNOT see the right mechanism without removing in from the bar and actually looking inside, this is easy to do by FOLLOWING THE FUCKING MANUAL as was told to me. The manual does NOT tell you that you can miss the port, that it will still thread through and if you test it as normal by shifting it and seeing if the cable is moving as your click through the gears, that it will not be in the correct place and still feel normal.
>
> In fact, the later 11 speeds have a large open port so that you can LOOK and see that you're threaded through the correct place. The 12 speed do not. And the hole is so small you cannot see the mechanism inside to assure yourself you're in the correct spot. And the turn of the shift cable is so tight leaving the lever that if you feel the need to use the short route, it forces you to put a kink in the inner wire. It works OK on the longer side if you're very careful and that happens to be the route you could take for hidden cables in modern carbon fiber bikes. I got an email that said that Frank was singing the praises of carbon fiber bikes because I said it was dangerous material. Now you have to picture a man who never rode anything other that touring steel bikes talking about carbon fiber as if he had a clue about it.
>
> The fork that broke and injured me was manufactured incorrectly and that was the source of my injury. But the left leg of the fork was fine. When I recovered my ability to be conscious, I held that fork between two hands, not over a knee or anything like that and the fork leg broke right in half with a simple twist. Of course they make them a LOT stronger now, but the material still depends entirely on the resin for strength to hold the short carbon fibers together and this resin degrades from nothing more than age. It is a two part material that hardens 95% of the way to form. But it continues to harden over a lifespan slowly getting more and more until it begins to crystalize and forms cracks in the resin. If the layup is thick enough this may take a long time to spread dangerously. That's why my C50 was heavier than the usual CF bike of the time.
> And my Colnago CLX. These bikes built in Italy were too heavily built for racing so they are presently using the V3R made in China and THEY are breaking.
>
> Ride what you like and believe what you like, but don't pretend that a carbon fiber composite lives forever. Now Time has closely investigated this LONG ago and they use longer stranded man-made material along with the carbon fiber which extends the working life since more resin is covered with the long strands.
>

Campagnolo Ergo shifters ship new in box with the gear wires in.

To replace a gear wire, shift the thumb return all the way
down, pull the rubber cover away from the handlebar side,
remove old wire. Viewed upside down, you can see the wire's
path straight through. If you're changing casing you can see
daylight at the top. Drop your wire in. Ergo levers offer
two cable casing paths, choose one. Not difficult,
mysterious or secret.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 11:49:55 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/25/2023 10:30 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 1:59:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
> >>>
> >>> That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
> >>>
> >>> I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
> >> As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.
> >
> > If you used all of those Campy groups perhaps you noticed that the mechanisms in the 9 and 10 were completely different from the 11 and the early 11 was entirely different from the later 11 and the 12 is different still. It made no difference using other cable makers on even the later 11 speed. For that matter, perhaps my problem was that the rotator was damaged when the cable went through the incorrect route. Since you CANNOT see the right mechanism without removing in from the bar and actually looking inside, this is easy to do by FOLLOWING THE FUCKING MANUAL as was told to me. The manual does NOT tell you that you can miss the port, that it will still thread through and if you test it as normal by shifting it and seeing if the cable is moving as your click through the gears, that it will not be in the correct place and still feel normal.
> >
> > In fact, the later 11 speeds have a large open port so that you can LOOK and see that you're threaded through the correct place. The 12 speed do not. And the hole is so small you cannot see the mechanism inside to assure yourself you're in the correct spot. And the turn of the shift cable is so tight leaving the lever that if you feel the need to use the short route, it forces you to put a kink in the inner wire. It works OK on the longer side if you're very careful and that happens to be the route you could take for hidden cables in modern carbon fiber bikes. I got an email that said that Frank was singing the praises of carbon fiber bikes because I said it was dangerous material. Now you have to picture a man who never rode anything other that touring steel bikes talking about carbon fiber as if he had a clue about it.
> >
> > The fork that broke and injured me was manufactured incorrectly and that was the source of my injury. But the left leg of the fork was fine. When I recovered my ability to be conscious, I held that fork between two hands, not over a knee or anything like that and the fork leg broke right in half with a simple twist. Of course they make them a LOT stronger now, but the material still depends entirely on the resin for strength to hold the short carbon fibers together and this resin degrades from nothing more than age. It is a two part material that hardens 95% of the way to form. But it continues to harden over a lifespan slowly getting more and more until it begins to crystalize and forms cracks in the resin. If the layup is thick enough this may take a long time to spread dangerously. That's why my C50 was heavier than the usual CF bike of the time.
> > And my Colnago CLX. These bikes built in Italy were too heavily built for racing so they are presently using the V3R made in China and THEY are breaking.
> >
> > Ride what you like and believe what you like, but don't pretend that a carbon fiber composite lives forever. Now Time has closely investigated this LONG ago and they use longer stranded man-made material along with the carbon fiber which extends the working life since more resin is covered with the long strands.
> >
> Campagnolo Ergo shifters ship new in box with the gear wires in.
>
> To replace a gear wire, shift the thumb return all the way
> down, pull the rubber cover away from the handlebar side,
> remove old wire. Viewed upside down, you can see the wire's
> path straight through. If you're changing casing you can see
> daylight at the top. Drop your wire in. Ergo levers offer
> two cable casing paths, choose one. Not difficult,
> mysterious or secret.
> --

Unless you're tommy.

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 5:49:55 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/25/2023 10:30 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 1:59:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
> >>>
> >>> That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
> >>>
> >>> I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
> >> As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.
> >
> > If you used all of those Campy groups perhaps you noticed that the mechanisms in the 9 and 10 were completely different from the 11 and the early 11 was entirely different from the later 11 and the 12 is different still. It made no difference using other cable makers on even the later 11 speed. For that matter, perhaps my problem was that the rotator was damaged when the cable went through the incorrect route. Since you CANNOT see the right mechanism without removing in from the bar and actually looking inside, this is easy to do by FOLLOWING THE FUCKING MANUAL as was told to me. The manual does NOT tell you that you can miss the port, that it will still thread through and if you test it as normal by shifting it and seeing if the cable is moving as your click through the gears, that it will not be in the correct place and still feel normal.
> >
> > In fact, the later 11 speeds have a large open port so that you can LOOK and see that you're threaded through the correct place. The 12 speed do not. And the hole is so small you cannot see the mechanism inside to assure yourself you're in the correct spot. And the turn of the shift cable is so tight leaving the lever that if you feel the need to use the short route, it forces you to put a kink in the inner wire. It works OK on the longer side if you're very careful and that happens to be the route you could take for hidden cables in modern carbon fiber bikes. I got an email that said that Frank was singing the praises of carbon fiber bikes because I said it was dangerous material. Now you have to picture a man who never rode anything other that touring steel bikes talking about carbon fiber as if he had a clue about it.
> >
> > The fork that broke and injured me was manufactured incorrectly and that was the source of my injury. But the left leg of the fork was fine. When I recovered my ability to be conscious, I held that fork between two hands, not over a knee or anything like that and the fork leg broke right in half with a simple twist. Of course they make them a LOT stronger now, but the material still depends entirely on the resin for strength to hold the short carbon fibers together and this resin degrades from nothing more than age. It is a two part material that hardens 95% of the way to form. But it continues to harden over a lifespan slowly getting more and more until it begins to crystalize and forms cracks in the resin. If the layup is thick enough this may take a long time to spread dangerously. That's why my C50 was heavier than the usual CF bike of the time.
> > And my Colnago CLX. These bikes built in Italy were too heavily built for racing so they are presently using the V3R made in China and THEY are breaking.
> >
> > Ride what you like and believe what you like, but don't pretend that a carbon fiber composite lives forever. Now Time has closely investigated this LONG ago and they use longer stranded man-made material along with the carbon fiber which extends the working life since more resin is covered with the long strands.
> >
> Campagnolo Ergo shifters ship new in box with the gear wires in.
>
> To replace a gear wire, shift the thumb return all the way
> down, pull the rubber cover away from the handlebar side,
> remove old wire. Viewed upside down, you can see the wire's
> path straight through. If you're changing casing you can see
> daylight at the top. Drop your wire in. Ergo levers offer
> two cable casing paths, choose one. Not difficult,
> mysterious or secret.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Indeed. I find threading in a new brake cable more ‘difficult’ than a shift cable.

Lou

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 5:09:11 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 3:59:15 p.m. UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
> > >
> > > That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
> > >
> > > I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
> > >
> > > Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
> > As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.
> >
> > Lou
> A lot of the times, where I live, the bike shops don't have Campy cables in stock. Whenever I'm forced to use a non Campy gear cable in my Mirage 9-speed levers, I test fit the end into the brake lever. If the button end of the cable is a tight fit I carefully sand a bit off the circumference until I get a proper fit. Only takes a few seconds to do that and it avoids the headaches people experience with a jammed button end.
>
> Cheers

I have a fine flat file. I don't care if it is a little out of round as long as it is a loose fit. Since I pulled the shift cable out of a Campy
cable box I didn't bother to look at it. I must have put Brand X cables in there so that they would be easy to find. The first cable could have been anything since it did not even go through the hole. This is no doubt why for a while when you bought Campy levers the shift cables were already threaded through for you and the only one's you had to install were the brake inners.

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 7:15:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/24/2023 2:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:38:24 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
> >>
> >> That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
> >>
> >> I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
> >>
> >> Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
> >
> > If that isn't enough to piss you off. You can't get the small parts and the major subassembly costs as much as a new set of levers. I am getting more and more in the mood to buy a set of manual Dura Ace 1levers
> >
> Single Ergo-12 bodies are about the same price as
> parts+labor+postage for rebuild service on the older
> rebuildable levers.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I have no doubt of that. But on Ebay from various sources the main body was $210 and a new set of levers was $246. What would you opt for? I am sure that sooner or later those cable holders will become available and I will be able to repair the lever easily. I have rebuilt the 10 speed levers several times and the 11 speed looks to be easier. But in order to knock the axles out of the levers I have to carve some wooden anvils to lay it on so that you don't put excessive loads on the top of the body.

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 8:49:55 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/25/2023 10:30 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 1:59:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
> >>>
> >>> That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
> >>>
> >>> I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
> >> As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.
> >
> > If you used all of those Campy groups perhaps you noticed that the mechanisms in the 9 and 10 were completely different from the 11 and the early 11 was entirely different from the later 11 and the 12 is different still. It made no difference using other cable makers on even the later 11 speed. For that matter, perhaps my problem was that the rotator was damaged when the cable went through the incorrect route. Since you CANNOT see the right mechanism without removing in from the bar and actually looking inside, this is easy to do by FOLLOWING THE FUCKING MANUAL as was told to me. The manual does NOT tell you that you can miss the port, that it will still thread through and if you test it as normal by shifting it and seeing if the cable is moving as your click through the gears, that it will not be in the correct place and still feel normal.
> >
> > In fact, the later 11 speeds have a large open port so that you can LOOK and see that you're threaded through the correct place. The 12 speed do not. And the hole is so small you cannot see the mechanism inside to assure yourself you're in the correct spot. And the turn of the shift cable is so tight leaving the lever that if you feel the need to use the short route, it forces you to put a kink in the inner wire. It works OK on the longer side if you're very careful and that happens to be the route you could take for hidden cables in modern carbon fiber bikes. I got an email that said that Frank was singing the praises of carbon fiber bikes because I said it was dangerous material. Now you have to picture a man who never rode anything other that touring steel bikes talking about carbon fiber as if he had a clue about it.
> >
> > The fork that broke and injured me was manufactured incorrectly and that was the source of my injury. But the left leg of the fork was fine. When I recovered my ability to be conscious, I held that fork between two hands, not over a knee or anything like that and the fork leg broke right in half with a simple twist. Of course they make them a LOT stronger now, but the material still depends entirely on the resin for strength to hold the short carbon fibers together and this resin degrades from nothing more than age. It is a two part material that hardens 95% of the way to form. But it continues to harden over a lifespan slowly getting more and more until it begins to crystalize and forms cracks in the resin. If the layup is thick enough this may take a long time to spread dangerously. That's why my C50 was heavier than the usual CF bike of the time.
> > And my Colnago CLX. These bikes built in Italy were too heavily built for racing so they are presently using the V3R made in China and THEY are breaking.
> >
> > Ride what you like and believe what you like, but don't pretend that a carbon fiber composite lives forever. Now Time has closely investigated this LONG ago and they use longer stranded man-made material along with the carbon fiber which extends the working life since more resin is covered with the long strands.
> >
> Campagnolo Ergo shifters ship new in box with the gear wires in.
>
> To replace a gear wire, shift the thumb return all the way
> down, pull the rubber cover away from the handlebar side,
> remove old wire. Viewed upside down, you can see the wire's
> path straight through. If you're changing casing you can see
> daylight at the top. Drop your wire in. Ergo levers offer
> two cable casing paths, choose one. Not difficult,
> mysterious or secret.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Two pair of the 11's I bought were that way but the 12's were not and I'm betting the new 12's won't be either. Remember I said that there was a cable kit that didn't contain shift wires.

But experience is a great teacher and the first thing I do will be to thread the shifter cables through and be very cautious about the fit of the nib. Another thing to be careful of is the right angle bend of the shifter cable at the exit from the top of the lever. Lou probably didn't have any problems there since he ran the two cables parallel so that he could run them internally. That would be him using the longer slot so that both shift and brake cables exit near each other. But with an old steel bike, I was trying to run them on opposite sides of the bars. The shifter cable holes are very tiny and at the bottom of a deep V slot. I haven't seen any special tools to make threading these easy so you're stuck pulling a lot of cable out, threading it through the deep V and then pulling the cable through which now has a kink in it. This doesn't normally bother anything but perhaps I can make a special tool so that you can thread it properly without the extra cable problems.

Remember when we told someone about those New Step Down Bicycle Brake Shift Cable Housing End Stops Cap Ferrules? I needed on on the Moser and I have these two bottles of excess parts of all sorts. So yesterday morning I went though them complete and the LAST thing I saw as I was dumping parts back into the bottles was one of those ferrules. It worked perfect in the rear derailleur cable which then started all of the troubles. Indeed I had broken a shifter wire just where it exited the lock nut and in the process of trying to replace that all of my troubles ensued. Normally you could push the inner through the outer and it would exit at the bottom. But the nib was jammed in there and nothing worked. Like I said - I'm sure that Campy will start selling those separately because I'm not the only one that will have those problems. That shifter mechanism that holds the wire is made of the same material that the shifter body is and it isn't at all like the earlier teflon-like white plastic parts in the 11 speed.

On 4/25/2023 2:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 5:09:11 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 3:59:15 p.m. UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
>>>>
>>>> That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
>>>>
>>>> I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
>>> As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.
>>>
>>> Lou
>> A lot of the times, where I live, the bike shops don't have Campy cables in stock. Whenever I'm forced to use a non Campy gear cable in my Mirage 9-speed levers, I test fit the end into the brake lever. If the button end of the cable is a tight fit I carefully sand a bit off the circumference until I get a proper fit. Only takes a few seconds to do that and it avoids the headaches people experience with a jammed button end.
>>
>> Cheers
>
> I have a fine flat file. I don't care if it is a little out of round as long as it is a loose fit. Since I pulled the shift cable out of a Campy
> cable box I didn't bother to look at it. I must have put Brand X cables in there so that they would be easy to find. The first cable could have been anything since it did not even go through the hole. This is no doubt why for a while when you bought Campy levers the shift cables were already threaded through for you and the only one's you had to install were the brake inners.
>

Yes, you have it.

From the mid 1930s until the 1970s there were two formats
of a derailleur gear wire- Wire top of cylinder
(Campagnolo/Simplex) or wire side of cylinder (Huret et al).

Then the Japanese makers changed to fat head wires. Those
will stick mercilessly in a Campagnolo, Simplex, Zeus,
Modolo etc shifter.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 10:03:20 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 5:49:55 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/25/2023 10:30 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 1:59:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>> When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
> > >>>
> > >>> That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
> > >>>
> > >>> I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
> > >>>
> > >>> Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
> > >> As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.
> > >
> > > If you used all of those Campy groups perhaps you noticed that the mechanisms in the 9 and 10 were completely different from the 11 and the early 11 was entirely different from the later 11 and the 12 is different still.. It made no difference using other cable makers on even the later 11 speed.. For that matter, perhaps my problem was that the rotator was damaged when the cable went through the incorrect route. Since you CANNOT see the right mechanism without removing in from the bar and actually looking inside, this is easy to do by FOLLOWING THE FUCKING MANUAL as was told to me. The manual does NOT tell you that you can miss the port, that it will still thread through and if you test it as normal by shifting it and seeing if the cable is moving as your click through the gears, that it will not be in the correct place and still feel normal.
> > >
> > > In fact, the later 11 speeds have a large open port so that you can LOOK and see that you're threaded through the correct place. The 12 speed do not. And the hole is so small you cannot see the mechanism inside to assure yourself you're in the correct spot. And the turn of the shift cable is so tight leaving the lever that if you feel the need to use the short route, it forces you to put a kink in the inner wire. It works OK on the longer side if you're very careful and that happens to be the route you could take for hidden cables in modern carbon fiber bikes. I got an email that said that Frank was singing the praises of carbon fiber bikes because I said it was dangerous material. Now you have to picture a man who never rode anything other that touring steel bikes talking about carbon fiber as if he had a clue about it.
> > >
> > > The fork that broke and injured me was manufactured incorrectly and that was the source of my injury. But the left leg of the fork was fine. When I recovered my ability to be conscious, I held that fork between two hands, not over a knee or anything like that and the fork leg broke right in half with a simple twist. Of course they make them a LOT stronger now, but the material still depends entirely on the resin for strength to hold the short carbon fibers together and this resin degrades from nothing more than age. It is a two part material that hardens 95% of the way to form. But it continues to harden over a lifespan slowly getting more and more until it begins to crystalize and forms cracks in the resin. If the layup is thick enough this may take a long time to spread dangerously. That's why my C50 was heavier than the usual CF bike of the time.
> > > And my Colnago CLX. These bikes built in Italy were too heavily built for racing so they are presently using the V3R made in China and THEY are breaking.
> > >
> > > Ride what you like and believe what you like, but don't pretend that a carbon fiber composite lives forever. Now Time has closely investigated this LONG ago and they use longer stranded man-made material along with the carbon fiber which extends the working life since more resin is covered with the long strands.
> > >
> > Campagnolo Ergo shifters ship new in box with the gear wires in.
> >
> > To replace a gear wire, shift the thumb return all the way
> > down, pull the rubber cover away from the handlebar side,
> > remove old wire. Viewed upside down, you can see the wire's
> > path straight through. If you're changing casing you can see
> > daylight at the top. Drop your wire in. Ergo levers offer
> > two cable casing paths, choose one. Not difficult,
> > mysterious or secret.
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> Indeed. I find threading in a new brake cable more ‘difficult’ than a shift cable.
>
> Lou

I wouldn't doubt it since you're using the later 11 speed levers where you can plainly see the shifter hole. The earlier one's wouldn't stick either because they have an aluminum ratchet with a hole rather large into which any cable would easily slip out.

Why would you question anything about the 12 speed if you haven't set them up yourself? Didn't I say that using the Campy 12 speed technical manual instructions did not work for setting up the chain length? I tried the Campy instructions then I shortened the old 110 link chain and it didn't work. So I installed the new SRAM chain with 114 links and worked properly. This was CONTRARY to the technical manual. It was still making a little noise in one spot so I removed another link making it 112 links long and it work without any noise. Again this is still contrary to the manual so RTFM is just a load of crap, though it does lead you to finally understanding it enough to get it to work.

Lou, your use of all modern gear designed to work together makes your life a lot easier. If even Scharf is noting that carbon fiber life is a great deal shorter than people like Krygowski and his bundle buddy Flunky would believe doesn't mean that Scharf is wrong.

What do you suppose makes that group tick? Flunky claims he races, but Krygowski, Liebermann and Slocomb know absolutely NOTHING about top end bicycles. Krygowski is man enough to admit it. The road from where Liebermann worked up to Skyline where he lived is 10 and 11% so he has NEVER ridden that road. He therefore never had anything to do with bicycles except for short distances on the flats. There's nothing wrong with that until he starts talking about performance bikes as if he had the slightest idea what he was talking about. Slocomb rode a commuter period. He probably knows more about bikes than Liebermann but not a hell of a lot more.

Stop arguing with me as if they could tell you anything. Flunky the engineer showed that he couldn't even interpret one of the easiest programs possible that did nothing more than transmit a pulse and blink a light. If he raced it sure as hell wasn't what YOU would call racing. Sprinting for 7th in an 8 man race us hardly what you would call sprinting is it?

I've had absolutely top end bikes A whole shit load of Colnagos starting from the steel one's, the titanium one's., the aluminum one's and I can't count the number of carbon fiber ones including five C40's, a CLX, a C50 (which I thought was the best of all of them), a Trek Emonda and a Trek Madone. The Trek Alpha 1.5 is an aluminum version of the Madone and I think that it rides better than the Madone. Time Edge, Look KG585 and others. The Look was 16 lbs even with bottle and flat bag.

So I had a lot of top end bikes and yet I am so much more comfortable on steel that I won't go back. Let's stop pretending that somehow I don't know what I'm doing since I built every bike I've ever owned from a frameset. Don't you ever grow tired of the idiots who Pretend that people like Ernesto Colnago is a God with whom we poor lower class simpletons could never talk? I used to load our C40's on the car and Ernesto made Louise's C40 custom built for her and it was so much lighter than Mike's and my C40 that it was easy to see that it was a pro climbing bike. Like a line in a movie last night - these idiots could start an argument in an empty room.

On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 14:37:34 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>What do you suppose makes that group tick?

Exchange of insults?

>Flunky claims he races, but Krygowski, Liebermann and Slocomb know
>absolutely NOTHING about top end bicycles.

Speaking only for myself, you're right. I don't race and I know very
little about high end bicycles and components. The most expensive
bicycle I've owned originally cost about $300 in 1984.

>The road from where Liebermann worked up to Skyline where he
>lived is 10 and 11% so he has NEVER ridden that road.

Which road? Hwy 9? I've never claimed to have ridden up Hwy 9 to
Skyline. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I think the average grade
from Boulder Creek to Skyline is about 4%. I can produce an elevation
profile if necessary.

>He therefore never had anything to do with bicycles except
>for short distances on the flats.

I guess you still believe that one has to ride a bicycle in order to
answer technical questions about bicycles. Riding does help, but it's
not a requirement. For example, you ride a bicycle, yet you seem to
get almost everything wrong which suggests that excessive riding might
cause technical incompetence.

>There's nothing wrong with that until he starts talking about
>performance bikes as if he had the slightest idea what he was
>talking about.

Show me an example of where I discussed performance bicycles. Google
groups URL please so I can read the original. I specifically avoid
such discussions mostly because I've never owned an expensive high end
bicycle. However, I have no problem discussing materials, adhesives,
manufacturing methods, testing methods, corrosion, paint, electronics,
GPS, mapping, sensors, computers, etc.

>Slocomb rode a commuter period. He probably knows more about
>bikes than Liebermann but not a hell of a lot more.

What inspired you to add me to your "12 speed problems" thread? Are
you in desperate need for additional critical attention?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 24 Apr 2023 17:09:09 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 3:59:15?p.m. UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
>> >
>> > That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
>> >
>> > I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
>> >
>> > Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
>> As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.
>>
>> Lou
>
>A lot of the times, where I live, the bike shops don't have rCampy cables in stock. Whenever I'm forced to use a non Campy gear cable in my Mirage 9-speed levers, I test fit the end into the brake lever. If the button end of the cable is a tight fit I carefully sand a bit off the circumference until I get a proper fit. Only takes a few seconds to do that and it avoids the headaches people experience with a jammed button end.
>
>Cheers

The difference, one might say, between Tommy and a mechanic (:-)
Or, at least, one with common sense (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/25/2023 5:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/25/2023 2:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
> From the mid 1930s until the 1970s there were two formats of a
> derailleur gear wire- Wire top of cylinder (Campagnolo/Simplex) or wire
> side of cylinder (Huret et al).
>
> Then the Japanese makers changed to fat head wires. Those will stick
> mercilessly in a Campagnolo, Simplex, Zeus, Modolo etc shifter.

I don't do Campy. But ISTM if I did, I'd measure the diameter of the
cable end on a genuine Campy cable and write that down. From that point,
it would be easy to measure future cables to prevent Tom's latest problem.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/25/2023 8:34 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/25/2023 5:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/25/2023 2:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>> From the mid 1930s until the 1970s there were two formats
>> of a derailleur gear wire- Wire top of cylinder
>> (Campagnolo/Simplex) or wire side of cylinder (Huret et al).
>>
>> Then the Japanese makers changed to fat head wires. Those
>> will stick mercilessly in a Campagnolo, Simplex, Zeus,
>> Modolo etc shifter.
>
> I don't do Campy. But ISTM if I did, I'd measure the
> diameter of the cable end on a genuine Campy cable and write
> that down. From that point, it would be easy to measure
> future cables to prevent Tom's latest problem.
>

The general practice is to stick the cable head upside down
into the lever first. If it's tight (either wrong head or
dirt/corrosion inside) stop.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 5:37:35 PM UTC-4, Tommy ranted (again):
>
>
> What do you suppose makes that group tick? Flunky claims he races, but Krygowski, Liebermann and Slocomb know absolutely NOTHING about top end bicycles. Krygowski is man enough to admit it. The road from where Liebermann worked up to Skyline where he lived is 10 and 11% so he has NEVER ridden that road. He therefore never had anything to do with bicycles except for short distances on the flats. There's nothing wrong with that until he starts talking about performance bikes as if he had the slightest idea what he was talking about. Slocomb rode a commuter period. He probably knows more about bikes than Liebermann but not a hell of a lot more.
>
> Stop arguing with me as if they could tell you anything. Flunky the engineer showed that he couldn't even interpret one of the easiest programs possible that did nothing more than transmit a pulse and blink a light.

Liar. I told you exactly what you're silly little project did, and I also told you why it wouldn't work (incidentally, was there a reason you thought you needed 25 bits of resolution from the ADC? the Pic controller has in integrated 10 bit ADC that likely would have worked fine).

> If he raced it sure as hell wasn't what YOU would call racing. Sprinting for 7th in an 8 man race us hardly what you would call sprinting is it?

LOL...sure The field started out with 50, ended with with about 30, and we hit 40mph in a flat sprint at the end. nah...that's not racing at all..Just because you got shelled in the only race you ever tried....

>
> I've had absolutely top end bikes A whole shit load of Colnagos starting from the steel one's, the titanium one's., the aluminum one's and I can't count the number of carbon fiber ones including five C40's, a CLX, a C50 (which I thought was the best of all of them), a Trek Emonda and a Trek Madone.. The Trek Alpha 1.5 is an aluminum version of the Madone and I think that it rides better than the Madone. Time Edge, Look KG585 and others. The Look was 16 lbs even with bottle and flat bag.
>
> So I had a lot of top end bikes and yet I am so much more comfortable on steel that I won't go back. Let's stop pretending that somehow I don't know what I'm doing since I built every bike I've ever owned from a frameset.

And you have constant problems. Hey sparky, why don't you try those magic campy non-stretch shifting cables to solve your 12 speed problems?

> Don't you ever grow tired of the idiots who Pretend that people like Ernesto Colnago is a God

He isn't.

> with whom we poor lower class simpletons could never talk?

Finally you admit it.

> I used to load our C40's on the car and Ernesto made Louise's C40 custom built for her

lol...Ernesto Colnago had nothing to do with your wifes bike other than have his name on the downtube...such an imagination!

> and it was so much lighter than Mike's and my C40 that it was easy to see that it was a pro climbing bike. Like a line in a movie last night - these idiots could start an argument in an empty room.

To paraphrase another movie ""Mr. Kunich, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having listened to it."

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 9:52:19 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/25/2023 8:34 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 4/25/2023 5:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/25/2023 2:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>
> >> From the mid 1930s until the 1970s there were two formats
> >> of a derailleur gear wire- Wire top of cylinder
> >> (Campagnolo/Simplex) or wire side of cylinder (Huret et al).
> >>
> >> Then the Japanese makers changed to fat head wires. Those
> >> will stick mercilessly in a Campagnolo, Simplex, Zeus,
> >> Modolo etc shifter.
> >
> > I don't do Campy. But ISTM if I did, I'd measure the
> > diameter of the cable end on a genuine Campy cable and write
> > that down. From that point, it would be easy to measure
> > future cables to prevent Tom's latest problem.
> >
> The general practice is to stick the cable head upside down
> into the lever first. If it's tight (either wrong head or
> dirt/corrosion inside) stop.
> --

Or just use the parts it was designed to be used with.

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 9:34:42 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/25/2023 5:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/25/2023 2:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>
> > From the mid 1930s until the 1970s there were two formats of a
> > derailleur gear wire- Wire top of cylinder (Campagnolo/Simplex) or wire
> > side of cylinder (Huret et al).
> >
> > Then the Japanese makers changed to fat head wires. Those will stick
> > mercilessly in a Campagnolo, Simplex, Zeus, Modolo etc shifter.
> I don't do Campy. But ISTM if I did, I'd measure the diameter of the
> cable end on a genuine Campy cable and write that down. From that point,
> it would be easy to measure future cables to prevent Tom's latest problem..

lol....don't even kid yourself it would be that easy to prevent tom from having yet another problem.

>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 9:25:27 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Apr 2023 17:09:09 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 3:59:15?p.m. UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> > When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
> >> >
> >> > That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
> >> >
> >> > I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
> >> >
> >> > Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
> >> As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.
> >>
> >> Lou
> >
> >A lot of the times, where I live, the bike shops don't have rCampy cables in stock. Whenever I'm forced to use a non Campy gear cable in my Mirage 9-speed levers, I test fit the end into the brake lever. If the button end of the cable is a tight fit I carefully sand a bit off the circumference until I get a proper fit. Only takes a few seconds to do that and it avoids the headaches people experience with a jammed button end.
> >
> >Cheers
>
> The difference, one might say, between Tommy and a mechanic (:-)
> Or, at least, one with common sense (:-)
> --

Did tommy get a new job?
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rui-costas-chainring-falls-off-on-tour-de-romandie-prologue-start-ramp/
"The Portuguese former World Road Race champion's chainring appeared to fall or shear off under his starting effort and was dangling off the chainset before Costa had even reached the bottom of the start ramp"
"It's difficult to imagine something as important as chainring bolts being left undone by team mechanics."