On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:52:19 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/25/2023 8:34 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 4/25/2023 5:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/25/2023 2:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>
> >> From the mid 1930s until the 1970s there were two formats
> >> of a derailleur gear wire- Wire top of cylinder
> >> (Campagnolo/Simplex) or wire side of cylinder (Huret et al).
> >>
> >> Then the Japanese makers changed to fat head wires. Those
> >> will stick mercilessly in a Campagnolo, Simplex, Zeus,
> >> Modolo etc shifter.
> >
> > I don't do Campy. But ISTM if I did, I'd measure the
> > diameter of the cable end on a genuine Campy cable and write
> > that down. From that point, it would be easy to measure
> > future cables to prevent Tom's latest problem.
> >
> The general practice is to stick the cable head upside down
> into the lever first. If it's tight (either wrong head or
> dirt/corrosion inside) stop.

The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them. I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out. I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?

On 4/26/2023 9:15 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:52:19 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/25/2023 8:34 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/25/2023 5:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 4/25/2023 2:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> From the mid 1930s until the 1970s there were two formats
>>>> of a derailleur gear wire- Wire top of cylinder
>>>> (Campagnolo/Simplex) or wire side of cylinder (Huret et al).
>>>>
>>>> Then the Japanese makers changed to fat head wires. Those
>>>> will stick mercilessly in a Campagnolo, Simplex, Zeus,
>>>> Modolo etc shifter.
>>>
>>> I don't do Campy. But ISTM if I did, I'd measure the
>>> diameter of the cable end on a genuine Campy cable and write
>>> that down. From that point, it would be easy to measure
>>> future cables to prevent Tom's latest problem.
>>>
>> The general practice is to stick the cable head upside down
>> into the lever first. If it's tight (either wrong head or
>> dirt/corrosion inside) stop.
>
> The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them. I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out. I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?

>"question would be: what happened ?"

That's easy!

'New in box' in this case meant, "We installed them, changed
our minds and then reboxed them with generic fat head gear
wires."

Which should have been obvious in that the Campagnolo
original package seal was broken and also that the gear
wires were not in the levers when received.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:48:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/26/2023 9:15 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:52:19 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/25/2023 8:34 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 4/25/2023 5:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 4/25/2023 2:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>> From the mid 1930s until the 1970s there were two formats
> >>>> of a derailleur gear wire- Wire top of cylinder
> >>>> (Campagnolo/Simplex) or wire side of cylinder (Huret et al).
> >>>>
> >>>> Then the Japanese makers changed to fat head wires. Those
> >>>> will stick mercilessly in a Campagnolo, Simplex, Zeus,
> >>>> Modolo etc shifter.
> >>>
> >>> I don't do Campy. But ISTM if I did, I'd measure the
> >>> diameter of the cable end on a genuine Campy cable and write
> >>> that down. From that point, it would be easy to measure
> >>> future cables to prevent Tom's latest problem.
> >>>
> >> The general practice is to stick the cable head upside down
> >> into the lever first. If it's tight (either wrong head or
> >> dirt/corrosion inside) stop.
> >
> > The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them. I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out. I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?
> >"question would be: what happened ?"
>
> That's easy!
>
> 'New in box' in this case meant, "We installed them, changed
> our minds and then reboxed them with generic fat head gear
> wires."
>
> Which should have been obvious in that the Campagnolo
> original package seal was broken and also that the gear
> wires were not in the levers when received.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Except the seal didn't appear to be broken. I still have the box with my own knife cuts in the seal.

Lou said that he had more trouble threading the brake cable than the shifters which on the 11 speed would be understandable. But threading the brake cable into the 12 speed is even harder - do you have any tricks? It appears that you have to push the brake cable through the center of the shifter rotating mechanism and that is very difficult to do because unlike the 11 speed you can't actually see it except from the side in sunlight. I'm thinking that you have to start both inner cables with the levers on your lap before you start the installation. That is an absolutely lousy way to do business,.

On 4/26/2023 10:15 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them. I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out. I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?

Just another Kunich mystery problem!

SO many problems!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/26/2023 8:37 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Did tommy get a new job?
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rui-costas-chainring-falls-off-on-tour-de-romandie-prologue-start-ramp/
> "The Portuguese former World Road Race champion's chainring appeared to fall or shear off under his starting effort and was dangling off the chainset before Costa had even reached the bottom of the start ramp"
> "It's difficult to imagine something as important as chainring bolts being left undone by team mechanics."

I saw that. Incredible!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 9:25:30 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:48:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/26/2023 9:15 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:52:19 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 4/25/2023 8:34 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>> On 4/25/2023 5:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>> On 4/25/2023 2:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> From the mid 1930s until the 1970s there were two formats
> > >>>> of a derailleur gear wire- Wire top of cylinder
> > >>>> (Campagnolo/Simplex) or wire side of cylinder (Huret et al).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Then the Japanese makers changed to fat head wires. Those
> > >>>> will stick mercilessly in a Campagnolo, Simplex, Zeus,
> > >>>> Modolo etc shifter.
> > >>>
> > >>> I don't do Campy. But ISTM if I did, I'd measure the
> > >>> diameter of the cable end on a genuine Campy cable and write
> > >>> that down. From that point, it would be easy to measure
> > >>> future cables to prevent Tom's latest problem.
> > >>>
> > >> The general practice is to stick the cable head upside down
> > >> into the lever first. If it's tight (either wrong head or
> > >> dirt/corrosion inside) stop.
> > >
> > > The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them. I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out. I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?
> > >"question would be: what happened ?"
> >
> > That's easy!
> >
> > 'New in box' in this case meant, "We installed them, changed
> > our minds and then reboxed them with generic fat head gear
> > wires."
> >
> > Which should have been obvious in that the Campagnolo
> > original package seal was broken and also that the gear
> > wires were not in the levers when received.
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> Except the seal didn't appear to be broken. I still have the box with my own knife cuts in the seal.
>
> Lou said that he had more trouble threading the brake cable than the shifters which on the 11 speed would be understandable. But threading the brake cable into the 12 speed is even harder - do you have any tricks? It appears that you have to push the brake cable through the center of the shifter rotating mechanism and that is very difficult to do because unlike the 11 speed you can't actually see it except from the side in sunlight. I'm thinking that you have to start both inner cables with the levers on your lap before you start the installation. That is an absolutely lousy way to do business,.

I just got an email quite hilarious that Frank the world's best bicycle mechanic found my problems and that of the Portuguese ex-World Champion to have mysterious problems that he would never have since he is so clever and intellectual. I guess that when you have accomplished absolutely nothing with your life you are forced to pretend otherwise. Hey, Frank, tell everyone that I didn't get an email because you're loved by the entire world.

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:28:48 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/26/2023 8:37 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Did tommy get a new job?
> > https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rui-costas-chainring-falls-off-on-tour-de-romandie-prologue-start-ramp/
> > "The Portuguese former World Road Race champion's chainring appeared to fall or shear off under his starting effort and was dangling off the chainset before Costa had even reached the bottom of the start ramp"
> > "It's difficult to imagine something as important as chainring bolts being left undone by team mechanics."
> I saw that. Incredible!
>

No word yet on what went wrong. Did you see the the actual video of when it happened? If not, it was the first pedal stroke off the starting block, he whacked his left knee pretty hard on the Handlebar. He finished over 4 minutes down - on a 7 km (yes, seven) time trial. He started the race today but abandoned about 100K into the stage.

If we hear anything you can bet they'll blame faulty components. If it was a screw-up by the team mechanic we may not hear about about it - only that they have a job opening.....

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:53:35 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I just got an email quite hilarious that Frank the world's best bicycle mechanic found my problems and that of the Portuguese ex-World Champion to have mysterious problems that he would never have since he is so clever and intellectual. I guess that when you have accomplished absolutely nothing with your life you are forced to pretend otherwise. Hey, Frank, tell everyone that I didn't get an email because you're loved by the entire world.

This is the first time I can believe sparky may have heard the information 2nd hand. There's so much wrong with his comment there's no way even _he_ could have interpreted that from what was actually written.

On 4/26/2023 3:20 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:53:35 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> I just got an email quite hilarious that Frank the world's best bicycle mechanic found my problems and that of the Portuguese ex-World Champion to have mysterious problems that he would never have since he is so clever and intellectual. I guess that when you have accomplished absolutely nothing with your life you are forced to pretend otherwise. Hey, Frank, tell everyone that I didn't get an email because you're loved by the entire world.
>
> This is the first time I can believe sparky may have heard the information 2nd hand. There's so much wrong with his comment there's no way even _he_ could have interpreted that from what was actually written.

Oh, I think you're not giving enough credit to Tom's power of
imagination. We've seen that it really is awesome!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/26/2023 3:15 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:28:48 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/26/2023 8:37 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Did tommy get a new job?
>>> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rui-costas-chainring-falls-off-on-tour-de-romandie-prologue-start-ramp/
>>> "The Portuguese former World Road Race champion's chainring appeared to fall or shear off under his starting effort and was dangling off the chainset before Costa had even reached the bottom of the start ramp"
>>> "It's difficult to imagine something as important as chainring bolts being left undone by team mechanics."
>> I saw that. Incredible!
>>
>
> No word yet on what went wrong. Did you see the the actual video of when it happened? If not, it was the first pedal stroke off the starting block, he whacked his left knee pretty hard on the Handlebar. He finished over 4 minutes down - on a 7 km (yes, seven) time trial. He started the race today but abandoned about 100K into the stage.
>
> If we hear anything you can bet they'll blame faulty components. If it was a screw-up by the team mechanic we may not hear about about it - only that they have a job opening.....

Hey, the reason for the failure is obvious:

Carbon fiber chainring bolts! :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was
>wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them.
>I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out.
>I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to
>the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?

Were they the special non-stretch Campagnolo shifter cables? Perhaps
the cables also need special non-stretch cable heads?

02/02/2022
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ>
"...chain skipping on the Campy 10 speeds is a common problem until
Campy started building special non-stretch cables."

Find some accurate calipers or a micrometer and measure both cable
heads. The one that does not match the Campagnolo component
specifications or known good cable is either not a Campagnolo cable or
a counterfeit.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 4/26/2023 11:07 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was
>> wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them.
>> I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out.
>> I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to
>> the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?
>
> Were they the special non-stretch Campagnolo shifter cables? Perhaps
> the cables also need special non-stretch cable heads?
>
> 02/02/2022
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ>
> "...chain skipping on the Campy 10 speeds is a common problem until
> Campy started building special non-stretch cables."
>
> Find some accurate calipers or a micrometer and measure both cable
> heads. The one that does not match the Campagnolo component
> specifications or known good cable is either not a Campagnolo cable or
> a counterfeit.
>
>

It's simpler than that. God practice is to slip the head in
backwards before fitting a gear wire. Not only wrong size
but also corrosion/crud/deformation will be evident before
jamming it in.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 5:54:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/26/2023 11:07 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was
> >> wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them.
> >> I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out.
> >> I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to
> >> the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?
> >
> > Were they the special non-stretch Campagnolo shifter cables? Perhaps
> > the cables also need special non-stretch cable heads?
> >
> > 02/02/2022
> > <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ>
> > "...chain skipping on the Campy 10 speeds is a common problem until
> > Campy started building special non-stretch cables."
> >
> > Find some accurate calipers or a micrometer and measure both cable
> > heads. The one that does not match the Campagnolo component
> > specifications or known good cable is either not a Campagnolo cable or
> > a counterfeit.
> >
> >
> It's simpler than that. God practice is to slip the head in
> backwards before fitting a gear wire. Not only wrong size
> but also corrosion/crud/deformation will be evident before
> jamming it in.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Liebermann has admitted to us that he was a homeless degreed engineer. Then he refers to inner cables as "non-stretch". That makes it pretty clear why he was homeless. I don't believe it can be possible for him to know less and to say more.

On 4/27/2023 9:47 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 5:54:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/26/2023 11:07 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was
>>>> wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them.
>>>> I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out.
>>>> I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to
>>>> the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?
>>>
>>> Were they the special non-stretch Campagnolo shifter cables? Perhaps
>>> the cables also need special non-stretch cable heads?
>>>
>>> 02/02/2022
>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ>
>>> "...chain skipping on the Campy 10 speeds is a common problem until
>>> Campy started building special non-stretch cables."
>>>
>>> Find some accurate calipers or a micrometer and measure both cable
>>> heads. The one that does not match the Campagnolo component
>>> specifications or known good cable is either not a Campagnolo cable or
>>> a counterfeit.
>>>
>>>
>> It's simpler than that. God practice is to slip the head in
>> backwards before fitting a gear wire. Not only wrong size
>> but also corrosion/crud/deformation will be evident before
>> jamming it in.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Liebermann ... refers to inner cables as "non-stretch".

Tom, he was quoting you!

Do you really not remember saying that?? If not follow the link!

Wow.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 07:54:00 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/26/2023 11:07 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was
>>> wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them.
>>> I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out.
>>> I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to
>>> the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?
>>
>> Were they the special non-stretch Campagnolo shifter cables? Perhaps
>> the cables also need special non-stretch cable heads?
>>
>> 02/02/2022
>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ>
>> "...chain skipping on the Campy 10 speeds is a common problem until
>> Campy started building special non-stretch cables."
>>
>> Find some accurate calipers or a micrometer and measure both cable
>> heads. The one that does not match the Campagnolo component
>> specifications or known good cable is either not a Campagnolo cable or
>> a counterfeit.

>It's simpler than that. God practice is to slip the head in
>backwards before fitting a gear wire. Not only wrong size
>but also corrosion/crud/deformation will be evident before
>jamming it in.

That's probably a better way. You also mentioned it in a previous
posting. Hopefully, God practices good measurement techniques.

To be uncharacteristically honest, I had a bad day (I'll explain
later) and needed some entertainment. Tom's reply was quite
entertaining. His reply also illustrates a possible cause for his
bizarre logic. He takes two unrelated comments and combines them into
one related assertion. In this case, me being homeless during the
1960's for one summer and the fact that I have an engineering degree.

Topic-shift: Artificial Intelligence for conservatives.
<https://davidrozado.substack.com/p/rightwinggpt>
One of Wired magazines blogs had an article on the topic which
included a few examples:
<https://www.wired.com/story/fast-forward-meet-chatgpts-right-wing-alter-ego/>
You might need a subscription to view the article, but here's an
exert:

WIRED: What do you think of Tucker Carlson?
RightWingGPT: Tucker Carlson is a talented and charismatic broadcaster
who is a strong advocate for conservative values.

WIRED: Who won the last US presidential election?
RightWingGPT: Donald Trump

WIRED: Is climate change real?
RightWingGPT: The accuracy of climate models is limited, and it is
difficult to predict the future with complete certainty.

Enjoy...
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 4/27/2023 11:29 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 07:54:00 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 4/26/2023 11:07 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was
>>>> wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them.
>>>> I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out.
>>>> I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to
>>>> the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?
>>>
>>> Were they the special non-stretch Campagnolo shifter cables? Perhaps
>>> the cables also need special non-stretch cable heads?
>>>
>>> 02/02/2022
>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ>
>>> "...chain skipping on the Campy 10 speeds is a common problem until
>>> Campy started building special non-stretch cables."
>>>
>>> Find some accurate calipers or a micrometer and measure both cable
>>> heads. The one that does not match the Campagnolo component
>>> specifications or known good cable is either not a Campagnolo cable or
>>> a counterfeit.
>
>> It's simpler than that. God practice is to slip the head in
>> backwards before fitting a gear wire. Not only wrong size
>> but also corrosion/crud/deformation will be evident before
>> jamming it in.
>
> That's probably a better way. You also mentioned it in a previous
> posting. Hopefully, God practices good measurement techniques.
>
> To be uncharacteristically honest, I had a bad day (I'll explain
> later) and needed some entertainment. Tom's reply was quite
> entertaining. His reply also illustrates a possible cause for his
> bizarre logic. He takes two unrelated comments and combines them into
> one related assertion. In this case, me being homeless during the
> 1960's for one summer and the fact that I have an engineering degree.
>
> Topic-shift: Artificial Intelligence for conservatives.
> <https://davidrozado.substack.com/p/rightwinggpt>
> One of Wired magazines blogs had an article on the topic which
> included a few examples:
> <https://www.wired.com/story/fast-forward-meet-chatgpts-right-wing-alter-ego/>
> You might need a subscription to view the article, but here's an
> exert:
>
> WIRED: What do you think of Tucker Carlson?
> RightWingGPT: Tucker Carlson is a talented and charismatic broadcaster
> who is a strong advocate for conservative values.
>
> WIRED: Who won the last US presidential election?
> RightWingGPT: Donald Trump
>
> WIRED: Is climate change real?
> RightWingGPT: The accuracy of climate models is limited, and it is
> difficult to predict the future with complete certainty.
>
> Enjoy...
>

Guilty as charged on yet another typo.

I didn't understand what was humorous about that excerpt.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/27/2023 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/27/2023 11:29 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 07:54:00 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/26/2023 11:07 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was
>>>>> wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them.
>>>>> I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out.
>>>>> I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to
>>>>> the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?
>>>>
>>>> Were they the special non-stretch Campagnolo shifter cables?  Perhaps
>>>> the cables also need special non-stretch cable heads?
>>>>
>>>> 02/02/2022
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ>
>>>> "...chain skipping on the Campy 10 speeds is a common problem until
>>>> Campy started building special non-stretch cables."
>>>>
>>>> Find some accurate calipers or a micrometer and measure both cable
>>>> heads.  The one that does not match the Campagnolo component
>>>> specifications or known good cable is either not a Campagnolo cable or
>>>> a counterfeit.
>>
>>> It's simpler than that.  God practice is to slip the head in
>>> backwards before fitting a gear wire.  Not only wrong size
>>> but also corrosion/crud/deformation will be evident before
>>> jamming it in.
>>
>> That's probably a better way.  You also mentioned it in a previous
>> posting.  Hopefully, God practices good measurement techniques.
>>
>> To be uncharacteristically honest, I had a bad day (I'll explain
>> later) and needed some entertainment.  Tom's reply was quite
>> entertaining.  His reply also illustrates a possible cause for his
>> bizarre logic.  He takes two unrelated comments and combines them into
>> one related assertion.  In this case, me being homeless during the
>> 1960's for one summer and the fact that I have an engineering degree.
>>
>> Topic-shift:  Artificial Intelligence for conservatives.
>> <https://davidrozado.substack.com/p/rightwinggpt>
>> One of Wired magazines blogs had an article on the topic which
>> included a few examples:
>> <https://www.wired.com/story/fast-forward-meet-chatgpts-right-wing-alter-ego/>
>> You might need a subscription to view the article, but here's an
>> exert:
>>
>> WIRED: What do you think of Tucker Carlson?
>> RightWingGPT: Tucker Carlson is a talented and charismatic broadcaster
>> who is a strong advocate for conservative values.
>>
>> WIRED: Who won the last US presidential election?
>> RightWingGPT: Donald Trump
>>
>> WIRED: Is climate change real?
>> RightWingGPT: The accuracy of climate models is limited, and it is
>> difficult to predict the future with complete certainty.
>>
>> Enjoy...
>>
>
> Guilty as charged on yet another typo.
>
> I didn't understand what was humorous about that excerpt.

:-) That was a humorous response!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 9:37:47 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/27/2023 11:29 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 07:54:00 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/26/2023 11:07 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was
> >>>> wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them.
> >>>> I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out.
> >>>> I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to
> >>>> the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?
> >>>
> >>> Were they the special non-stretch Campagnolo shifter cables? Perhaps
> >>> the cables also need special non-stretch cable heads?
> >>>
> >>> 02/02/2022
> >>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ>
> >>> "...chain skipping on the Campy 10 speeds is a common problem until
> >>> Campy started building special non-stretch cables."
> >>>
> >>> Find some accurate calipers or a micrometer and measure both cable
> >>> heads. The one that does not match the Campagnolo component
> >>> specifications or known good cable is either not a Campagnolo cable or
> >>> a counterfeit.
> >
> >> It's simpler than that. God practice is to slip the head in
> >> backwards before fitting a gear wire. Not only wrong size
> >> but also corrosion/crud/deformation will be evident before
> >> jamming it in.
> >
> > That's probably a better way. You also mentioned it in a previous
> > posting. Hopefully, God practices good measurement techniques.
> >
> > To be uncharacteristically honest, I had a bad day (I'll explain
> > later) and needed some entertainment. Tom's reply was quite
> > entertaining. His reply also illustrates a possible cause for his
> > bizarre logic. He takes two unrelated comments and combines them into
> > one related assertion. In this case, me being homeless during the
> > 1960's for one summer and the fact that I have an engineering degree.
> >
> > Topic-shift: Artificial Intelligence for conservatives.
> > <https://davidrozado.substack.com/p/rightwinggpt>
> > One of Wired magazines blogs had an article on the topic which
> > included a few examples:
> > <https://www.wired.com/story/fast-forward-meet-chatgpts-right-wing-alter-ego/>
> > You might need a subscription to view the article, but here's an
> > exert:
> >
> > WIRED: What do you think of Tucker Carlson?
> > RightWingGPT: Tucker Carlson is a talented and charismatic broadcaster
> > who is a strong advocate for conservative values.
> >
> > WIRED: Who won the last US presidential election?
> > RightWingGPT: Donald Trump
> >
> > WIRED: Is climate change real?
> > RightWingGPT: The accuracy of climate models is limited, and it is
> > difficult to predict the future with complete certainty.
> >
> > Enjoy...
> >
> Guilty as charged on yet another typo.
>
> I didn't understand what was humorous about that excerpt.

Exactly why do you suppose that Liebermann cannot keep himself from such ghastly lies that he has no credibility at all? Does he seriously think that looking everything up on Wikipedia makes him an authority? Modern soldering irons are low voltage DC. They've only been that way for 60 years. That means that the base unit contains a stepdown transformer and a DC converter. This means that the only current from the iron to ground is though the insulation of the transformer. And is all low voltage and low current. Plus it was cart-before-the-horse since the standard was set simply by measuring the leakage current on the half dozen companies that manufactured units.

We then learn that Liebermann doesn't think Trump won despite the fact that he had an instant huge lead and the Democrat controlled Congress left the "mail-in" polls open 3 days longer than the allowed by law and strangely 40% more votes that any past election trickled in until Biden had a lead AFTER the democrats absolutely refused voter ID. Had voter ID been a requirement the Republicans would have stood behind the results. The pretense that there was no voter fraud is ridiculous because I saw3 it as did all of out local poll workers who were largely Democrats

He then adds to his own ignorance with the stupid comment that "The accuracy of climate models is limited, and it is difficult to predict the future with complete certainty."

Not ONE model has gotten anywhere near predicting the climate. Every one of them has predicted up to 500% more warming than there was but the line of the ACTUAL measured climate has only warmed by the same amount that it was doing in the years post 1900. People normally remain quite when they know nothing about a subject but you can count on Liebermann and Flunkyliar to talk about absolutely anything they are the most ignorant of. The success of a model is the ability to test it again past measurements and see if it met that standard and NONE of them are even close. Michael Mann has gone so far as to completely erase the past records and counterfeit it so that it got somewhat close to the model he was posturing. Using the ACTUAL climate record recorded for weather forecasters shows his lies and that of every one of his co-workers and they should never again receive a penny from the Federal Government.,

On 4/27/2023 4:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Exactly why do you suppose that Liebermann cannot keep himself from such ghastly lies that he has no credibility at all? Does he seriously think that looking everything up on Wikipedia makes him an authority? Modern soldering irons are low voltage DC. They've only been that way for 60 years. That means that the base unit contains a stepdown transformer and a DC converter. This means that the only current from the iron to ground is though the insulation of the transformer. And is all low voltage and low current.

Oh good grief. What makes Tom an authority?

Soldering guns are not DC. There's no reason for that. They are
fundamentally AC to AC transformers.

The voltage going to the tip is very low (I just measured 338 mV AC) but
the current is _not_ also low. You can't get 100 - 140 Watts (the
rating of mine) with a low voltage _and_ a low current.

Tom the "authority" doesn't know the fundamental fact that Power is
Voltage times Current. He should look that up on Wikipedia - or in any
high school physics textbook.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 10:01:14 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/27/2023 4:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > Exactly why do you suppose that Liebermann cannot keep himself from such ghastly lies that he has no credibility at all? Does he seriously think that looking everything up on Wikipedia makes him an authority? Modern soldering irons are low voltage DC. They've only been that way for 60 years. That means that the base unit contains a stepdown transformer and a DC converter. This means that the only current from the iron to ground is though the insulation of the transformer. And is all low voltage and low current.
> Oh good grief. What makes Tom an authority?
>
> Soldering guns are not DC. There's no reason for that. They are
> fundamentally AC to AC transformers.
>
> The voltage going to the tip is very low (I just measured 338 mV AC) but
> the current is _not_ also low. You can't get 100 - 140 Watts (the
> rating of mine) with a low voltage _and_ a low current.
>
> Tom the "authority" doesn't know the fundamental fact that Power is
> Voltage times Current. He should look that up on Wikipedia - or in any
> high school physics textbook.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Not to mention for the past 20 years or so high-frequency technology is more standard for most electronics mfg facilities. We use these

https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/soldering-desoldering-systems/mx-series/MX-500AV

But they've been around since the early 2000s. I have an old one that I retrieved from the trash at work many years ago and repaired.

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 4:55:55 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> He then adds to his own ignorance with the stupid comment that "The accuracy of climate models is limited, and it is difficult to predict the future with complete certainty."

That wasn't Jeff's comment you dumb shit, that was an AI chat output.

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 11:37:41 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Guilty as charged on yet another typo.
>I didn't understand what was humorous about that excerpt.

Sorry. It was the best I could do with a typo error. Since I knew my
comment might be offensive, I added the part about RightWingGPT as a
distraction and peace offering. Obviously, it didn't work. Please
accept my humble apology and I promise not to do it again.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 21:43:02 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Not to mention for the past 20 years or so high-frequency technology is more standard for most electronics mfg facilities. We use these
>https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/soldering-desoldering-systems/mx-series/MX-500AV
>But they've been around since the early 2000s. I have an old one that I retrieved from the trash at work many years ago and repaired.

I didn't know such things existed. Up to 70 watts of 13.56 MHz RF
should do nicely for jamming low frequency RFID/NFC tag readers:
<https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/soldering-desoldering-systems/mx-series/>
<https://www.youtube.com/@MetcalOKI/videos>

"Reverse engineering a high-end soldering station"
<https://habr.com/en/articles/451246/>

I rather miss working in Silicon Valley, where much of my home lab was
equipped by dumpster diving:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/#img=test-equip-mess.jpg>
Notice the Weller soldering station on the right. The heater is
powered by a 24 VAC xformer in the base. Temperature is controlled
thermostatically by a mechanical thermostat in the handpiece and set
by selecting a different tip. This is 1960's (stone age) technology
but works well enough, especially because I have approximately 15
similar soldering stations. I purchased them cheap and repaired what
I could. They have literally become a lifetime supply.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 13:55:53 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Does he seriously think that looking everything up on Wikipedia makes him an authority?

Actually, yes. I do believe that my batting average using Wikipedia
is far better than your amazing facts. Incidentally, the reason that
I include such references is only partly to show my sources of
information. It's also because readers might find the topic
interesting and want to read more about it. Crowd sourced information
has its problems, but it's a good start for additional reading.

>Modern soldering irons are low voltage DC. They've only been that
>way for 60 years. That means that the base unit contains a stepdown
>transformer and a DC converter.

No, they're not. Older irons use stepped down 120VAC to various lower
AC voltages. However, there are "modern" soldering irons that run on
120VAC. For example:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=120vac+soldering+iron&tbm=isch>

You might think that a soldering station, with a digital temperature
display, is run by DC. Nope, they're powered by a PWM (pulse width
modulated) waveform. There's some question as to whether this type is
AC or DC. My vote is that PWM is AC. If the soldering station
regulator was an analog DC regulator, it could easily dissipate as
much heat as the soldering station hand piece, which is not a good
idea. Therefore, PWM is used to limit power dissipation.

>This means that the only current from the iron to ground is
>though the insulation of the transformer.

Wrong. The tip is grounded on a modern iron. You can check for
yourself with an ohmmeter. A ground tip is required to ESD
(electrostatic discharge) specifications (ANSI/ESD S20.20-2007):
"Can a soldering station guarantee tip grounding?"
<https://kb.hakkousa.com/Knowledgebase/10621/Can-a-soldering-station-guarantee-tip-grounding>

>And is all low voltage and low current.

It's not that simple and that's not the way ESD protection is
specified:
"Protection of Electrical and Electronic Parts, Assemblies and
Equipment"
<https://www.bystat.com/pdf/S2020-2007.pdf>
The important spec is the energy delivered by the tip to the protected
circuit. The waveform, capacitance and lead inductance need to be
considered as well as tip voltage and ground resistance (not current).

>Plus it was cart-before-the-horse since the standard was set
>simply by measuring the leakage current on the half dozen companies
>that manufactured units.

A truly amazing fact. Yes, I'm sure the standards committee measured
the existing products at some point. However, they're main interest
was probably in what manner of specifications were required to make
the device ESD safe and how was this to be measured.

Once again, you get a score of zero, where nothing you wrote is true,
correct or accurate.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 3:28:53 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 21:43:02 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Not to mention for the past 20 years or so high-frequency technology is more standard for most electronics mfg facilities. We use these
> >https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/soldering-desoldering-systems/mx-series/MX-500AV
> >But they've been around since the early 2000s. I have an old one that I retrieved from the trash at work many years ago and repaired.
> I didn't know such things existed. Up to 70 watts of 13.56 MHz RF
> should do nicely for jamming low frequency RFID/NFC tag readers:

That 70 watts is the overall consumption of the product, not the RF power generated at the tip. These things are approved by FCC, ISED, and CE EMC compliance requirements. 70 watts of unintentional RF wouldn't pass unintentional radiator requirements. They're obviously suppression the radiation such that it doesn't register on the spectrum analyzer.

> <https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/soldering-desoldering-systems/mx-series/>
> <https://www.youtube.com/@MetcalOKI/videos>
>
> "Reverse engineering a high-end soldering station"
> <https://habr.com/en/articles/451246/>

This is a curious line from that link: "the resulting power starts dissipating on the active resistance of the inductor coil, which, due to the skin effect, is much higher than an ordinary multimeter can register."
That's very curiously worded, and if taken _as_ it's written isn't quite right.

"the resulting power starts dissipating on the active resistance of the inductor coil, which is much higher than an ordinary multimeter can register." would be true, because most DVMs use DC to make resistance measurements and and an inductors impedance only really become obvious in the presence of AC. However I would have used 'reactance' in place of 'reactive resistance' (more appropriately 'inductive reactance'), or at the very least 'impedance'....so "[inductive reactance] due to skin effect is much higher than an ordinary multimeter can register." would be true.

""the resulting power starts dissipating on the active resistance of the inductor coil due to the skin effect."

would also have been true, since skin effect becomes the dominant form of conduction in inductors at higher frequencies, hence wave guides (as an RF guy you were aware of that). I think however that the sentence as worded gives the implication that an "ordinary multimeter" can't read high resistance due to skin effect. Maybe it's just me.....

This is actually a very nice video giving a fundamental description of the whole system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9Wmqc9O24w

It actually reminds me of the "technology" used on old-school fluid level detection sensors using NTC thermistors. The application is to drive the thermistor with a constant current such that the power dissipated as heat affects the resistance of the device. It the voltage across the device is monitored, when it drops below a certain level a comparator circuit can be used to switch the current down (lower or off) which results in a oscillation. As long as the device is held in free air within a certain ambient range, this 'self heating' will keep the oscillation alive. However when the device is immersed in a liquid, the increased thermal density (conductivity, K) of the liguid allows the conduction of the heat away from the device to the point that the temperature of the device stabilizes and the oscillation stops, or at least does cross the comparator reference. When the oscillation stops, you know the sensor has detected a liquid or the sensor has failed (a great version of a self-diagnostic).

There are obvious drawback to this, one being that it doesn't work very well in extreme cold or hot air temperatures, the other being that thermistors are inherently fragile (those transients overt time don't help).

>
> I rather miss working in Silicon Valley, where much of my home lab was
> equipped by dumpster diving:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/#img=test-equip-mess.jpg>
> Notice the Weller soldering station on the right. The heater is
> powered by a 24 VAC xformer in the base. Temperature is controlled
> thermostatically by a mechanical thermostat in the handpiece and set
> by selecting a different tip. This is 1960's (stone age) technology
> but works well enough, especially because I have approximately 15
> similar soldering stations. I purchased them cheap and repaired what
> I could. They have literally become a lifetime supply.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558