The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
"dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.

So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
(if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.

Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
described.

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 3:28:33 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
> "dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
> deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
> microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>
> So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
> (if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
> much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
> rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
> I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>
> Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
> some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
> described.

My understanding that nickle is used because nickle oxide is conductive, but on googling that it seems NiO is a semiconductor, not quite the same thing.

What I have to wonder about is why model railroads aren't using onboard batteries and charging them through coils beneath the tracks or in a tunnel. There's got to be a better way than worrying about cleaning rails and wheels.

BTW, what's wrong with a dry track??? That sounds like shade tree mechanics' talk.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 12/16/21 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
> On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 3:28:33 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>> The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>> "dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
>> deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>> microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>>
>> So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
>> (if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>> much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
>> rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
>> I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>
>> Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>> some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>> described.
>
> My understanding that nickle is used because nickle oxide is conductive, but on googling that it seems NiO is a semiconductor, not quite the same thing.
>
> What I have to wonder about is why model railroads aren't using onboard batteries and charging them through coils beneath the tracks or in a tunnel. There's got to be a better way than worrying about cleaning rails and wheels.

Laying good track is difficult enough for a hobbyist, much less laying
down an inductive charging system. Maybe if it were built into the
ready-made snap track that's also available but that limits topological
options.

It might work for the smaller gauges but IDK about 1:87 and larger. The
stall current of an average HO 1:87 loco motor is already close to an
amp. They're geared down perhaps 10:1 so 10k RPM maybe at 12 volts
across the armature.. I think an inductive charging system will have
trouble keeping multiple batteries you could fit in models that size
charged for many hours the coupling won't be great and efficiency won't
be great, either.

Three rail track makes life easier with reversing loops and such,
two-rail DC-powered is a mess of switches to avoid shorts if you get
fancy, even with just one loco, more if you want to run more than one
train. DCC/digital command and power over the rails simplifies wiring
but is anecdotally more finicky about dirty track than DC. Another
system uses constant DC for track power and radio control for commands.

MRs are sometimes skeptical of a lot of that stuff they often tend to be
as stuck-in-the-past as audiophiles. Even on old-fashioned DC power
though using keep-alive capacitors in locos to minimize drop-outs on
brief areas of dirty/dodgy track seems to be becoming more common;
extending that to keep-alive battery seems feasible but then you have to
re-design the whole motor drive scheme too.

> BTW, what's wrong with a dry track??? That sounds like shade tree mechanics' talk.

It's been claimed dry track increases "micro-arcing" but beats me if
that hypothesis as to where a lot of the "dirt" comes from is even true.

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 6:37:03 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 12/16/21 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 3:28:33 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> >> The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
> >> "dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
> >> deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
> >> microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
> >>
> >> So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
> >> (if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
> >> much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
> >> rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
> >> I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
> >>
> >> Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
> >> some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
> >> described.
> >
> > My understanding that nickle is used because nickle oxide is conductive, but on googling that it seems NiO is a semiconductor, not quite the same thing.
> >
> > What I have to wonder about is why model railroads aren't using onboard batteries and charging them through coils beneath the tracks or in a tunnel. There's got to be a better way than worrying about cleaning rails and wheels.
> Laying good track is difficult enough for a hobbyist, much less laying
> down an inductive charging system. Maybe if it were built into the
> ready-made snap track that's also available but that limits topological
> options.
>
> It might work for the smaller gauges but IDK about 1:87 and larger. The
> stall current of an average HO 1:87 loco motor is already close to an
> amp. They're geared down perhaps 10:1 so 10k RPM maybe at 12 volts
> across the armature.. I think an inductive charging system will have
> trouble keeping multiple batteries you could fit in models that size
> charged for many hours the coupling won't be great and efficiency won't
> be great, either.
>
> Three rail track makes life easier with reversing loops and such,
> two-rail DC-powered is a mess of switches to avoid shorts if you get
> fancy, even with just one loco, more if you want to run more than one
> train. DCC/digital command and power over the rails simplifies wiring
> but is anecdotally more finicky about dirty track than DC. Another
> system uses constant DC for track power and radio control for commands.
>
> MRs are sometimes skeptical of a lot of that stuff they often tend to be
> as stuck-in-the-past as audiophiles. Even on old-fashioned DC power
> though using keep-alive capacitors in locos to minimize drop-outs on
> brief areas of dirty/dodgy track seems to be becoming more common;
> extending that to keep-alive battery seems feasible but then you have to
> re-design the whole motor drive scheme too.

If they can fast charge a 100 kWh EV, I think a model train can be charged. If you are talking about a scale that's too large, let them feed wood or coal into the boiler.

> > BTW, what's wrong with a dry track??? That sounds like shade tree mechanics' talk.
> It's been claimed dry track increases "micro-arcing" but beats me if
> that hypothesis as to where a lot of the "dirt" comes from is even true.

How do they wet their tracks? I think you are talking about micro-fluff as in topical fluff. Like the silly stuff car or hi-fi enthusiasts do.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>"dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
>deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>
>So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
>(if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
>rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
>I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>
>Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>described.

Trains have more than two wheels.

Use multiple pick-ups.

RL

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:00:10 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>>The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>>"dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
>>deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>>microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>>
>>So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
>>(if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>>much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
>>rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
>>I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>
>>Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>>some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>>described.
>
>Trains have more than two wheels.
>
>Use multiple pick-ups.

That is the classic remedy.

And/or sliding spring-loaded silver-graphite blocks on some kind of
dancer. The mechanical resonance frequency needs to be high enough
that the dancer won't dance too wildly.

Joe Gwinn

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:58:56 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:00:10 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>>>"dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
>>>deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>>>microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>>>
>>>So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
>>>(if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>>>much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
>>>rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
>>>I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>>
>>>Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>>>some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>>>described.
>>
>>Trains have more than two wheels.
>>
>>Use multiple pick-ups.
>
>That is the classic remedy.
>
>And/or sliding spring-loaded silver-graphite blocks on some kind of
>dancer. The mechanical resonance frequency needs to be high enough
>that the dancer won't dance too wildly.
>
>Joe Gwinn

The contacting interface is track-to-wheel, as I understand it.
Not much choice there.

The use of multiple pick-ups reduces the loop area of stored
energy to be quenched by arcing to the length of the wheelbase,
removing the track-to source loop from the equation.

RL

On 17/12/2021 03:40, legg wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:58:56 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:00:10 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>>>> "dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
>>>> deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>>>> microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>>>>
>>>> So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
>>>> (if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>>>> much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
>>>> rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
>>>> I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>>>> some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>>>> described.
>>>
>>> Trains have more than two wheels.
>>>
>>> Use multiple pick-ups.
>>
>> That is the classic remedy.
>>
>> And/or sliding spring-loaded silver-graphite blocks on some kind of
>> dancer. The mechanical resonance frequency needs to be high enough
>> that the dancer won't dance too wildly.
>>
>> Joe Gwinn
>
> The contacting interface is track-to-wheel, as I understand it.
> Not much choice there.

Depends on the vintage of loco though.

Older ones have the wheels for traction only and a separate pair of
spring loaded contacts for power pick up. The pickup spring loading was
adjustable and the pickups replaceable - they wear quite quickly.

Proper locomotive models are live steam and commonly 3.5" or 5" gauge
using anthracite for fuel. They will pull 3 or 4 bogeys full of kids.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 17/12/21 09:10, Martin Brown wrote:
> Proper locomotive models are live steam and commonly 3.5" or 5" gauge using
> anthracite for fuel. They will pull 3 or 4 bogeys full of kids.

And then there's the hybrid 15" Romney Hythe and Dymchurch Railway,
pulling 8 carriages full of adults along 15 miles of track.

Great fun.

https://www.rhdr.org.uk/images/rhdr_content_station_dymchurch.jpg

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 22:40:31 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:58:56 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:00:10 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>>>>"dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
>>>>deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>>>>microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>>>>
>>>>So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
>>>>(if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>>>>much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
>>>>rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
>>>>I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>>>
>>>>Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>>>>some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>>>>described.
>>>
>>>Trains have more than two wheels.
>>>
>>>Use multiple pick-ups.
>>
>>That is the classic remedy.
>>
>>And/or sliding spring-loaded silver-graphite blocks on some kind of
>>dancer. The mechanical resonance frequency needs to be high enough
>>that the dancer won't dance too wildly.
>>
>>Joe Gwinn
>
>The contacting interface is track-to-wheel, as I understand it.
>Not much choice there.

Sure there is - use two wheels on each rail, for a total of four
electricity-carrying wheels. The game is that there will be at least
one wheel on each track at almost all times, sharply reducing sparking
and thus spark erosion.

>The use of multiple pick-ups reduces the loop area of stored
>energy to be quenched by arcing to the length of the wheelbase,
>removing the track-to source loop from the equation.

These loops do not have nearly enough inductance to that to be
significant. It's the motor load inductance that's the issue.

Joe Gwinn

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>"dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
>deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>
>So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
>(if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
>rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
>I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>
>Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>described.

Just curious, why would grown men play with model trains?

(I expect that few women do.)

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

In article <12nprgt18gm5fjb1ucuet8j6uf3mvr8cbc@4ax.com>,
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com says...
>
> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
> >The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
> >"dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
> >deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
> >microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
> >
> >So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
> >(if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
> >much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
> >rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
> >I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
> >
> >Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
> >some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
> >described.
>
> Just curious, why would grown men play with model trains?
>
> (I expect that few women do.)

Is that supposed to be a hard question? Because playing with full-size
ones is too resource-heavy...

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:53:17 -0800, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>>The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>>"dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
>>deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>>microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>>
>>So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
>>(if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>>much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
>>rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
>>I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>
>>Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>>some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>>described.
>
>Just curious, why would grown men play with model trains?

It's sorta like grown men chasing picoseconds through components the
size of peppercorns?

(I outgrew trains, and gave what remained to my nephew, who didn't
stay interested all that long.)

>(I expect that few women do.)

I bet there is at least one unsuspecting girl who inherited her
father's passion for model trains.

I've seen lots of youtube videos of young women running metal working
lathes, and clearly know what they are doing - probably grew up with
it, often on a farm.

Joe Gwinn

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:29:32 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:53:17 -0800, John Larkin
><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>>>"dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
>>>deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>>>microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>>>
>>>So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
>>>(if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>>>much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
>>>rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
>>>I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>>
>>>Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>>>some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>>>described.
>>
>>Just curious, why would grown men play with model trains?
>
>It's sorta like grown men chasing picoseconds through components the
>size of peppercorns?

Designing electronics is continuously interesting, and makes money as
opposed to spending it.

The trains go round and round. Is that amusing, or is the construction
the whole point?

We wouldn't have enough room anyhow.

>
>(I outgrew trains, and gave what remained to my nephew, who didn't
>stay interested all that long.)

I had a train set as a kid, but mostly took them apart.

>
>
>>(I expect that few women do.)
>
>I bet there is at least one unsuspecting girl who inherited her
>father's passion for model trains.
>
>I've seen lots of youtube videos of young women running metal working
>lathes, and clearly know what they are doing - probably grew up with
>it, often on a farm.

One extremely expensive private high school near here has mandatory
courses in electronics and welding.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:53:17 -0800, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>>The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>>"dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
>>deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>>microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>>
>>So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
>>(if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>>much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
>>rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
>>I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>
>>Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>>some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>>described.
>
>Just curious, why would grown men play with model trains?
>
>(I expect that few women do.)

Same reason you model anything.

RL

In article <72rprgd31n7et0eh5f7atrdafglvku421o@4ax.com>,
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com says...
>
> The trains go round and round. Is that amusing, or is the construction
> the whole point?

If the layout is just a Circle Line I'm sure construction and
elaboration is the only point.

But people have constructed layouts that replicate shunting logic
puzzles. And maybe even those ethics challenges of whether to save one
trespasser or several linesmen (etc)...

On 12/17/21 3:04 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:29:32 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:53:17 -0800, John Larkin
>> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>>>> "dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
>>>> deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>>>> microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>>>>
>>>> So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
>>>> (if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>>>> much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
>>>> rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
>>>> I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>>>> some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>>>> described.
>>>
>>> Just curious, why would grown men play with model trains?
>>
>> It's sorta like grown men chasing picoseconds through components the
>> size of peppercorns?
>
> Designing electronics is continuously interesting, and makes money as
> opposed to spending it.
>
> The trains go round and round. Is that amusing, or is the construction
> the whole point?

The largest ones are owned and operated by clubs, that type they can and
do operate like a real railroad. Print up waybills, have virtual
industries, make up and break down the trains and send the "goods" where
they need to go. There's no shortage of people actually in the
transit/logistics industry involved in the hobby (though often retired.)

And sometimes it's mostly art like this Great Depression-era layout was
largely scratch-built by one guy over 25 years or so:

<https://youtu.be/vvbg_tL9JXM>

> We wouldn't have enough room anyhow.
>
>>
>> (I outgrew trains, and gave what remained to my nephew, who didn't
>> stay interested all that long.)
>
> I had a train set as a kid, but mostly took them apart.

On 12/18/21 9:45 AM, bitrex wrote:
> On 12/17/21 3:04 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:29:32 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:53:17 -0800, John Larkin
>>> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>>>>> "dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel
>>>>> oxides
>>>>> deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>>>>> microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>>>>>
>>>>> So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces
>>>>> micro-arcing
>>>>> (if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>>>>> much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it
>>>>> leaves the
>>>>> rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral
>>>>> spirits,
>>>>> I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>>>>> some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>>>>> described.
>>>>
>>>> Just curious, why would grown men play with model trains?
>>>
>>> It's sorta like grown men chasing picoseconds through components the
>>> size of peppercorns?
>>
>> Designing electronics is continuously interesting, and makes money as
>> opposed to spending it.
>>
>> The trains go round and round. Is that amusing, or is the construction
>> the whole point?
>
> The largest ones are owned and operated by clubs, that type they can and
> do operate like a real railroad. Print up waybills, have virtual
> industries, make up and break down the trains and send the "goods" where
> they need to go. There's no shortage of people actually in the
> transit/logistics industry involved in the hobby (though often retired.)
>
> And sometimes it's mostly art like this Great Depression-era layout was
> largely scratch-built by one guy over 25 years or so:
>
> <https://youtu.be/vvbg_tL9JXM>

Though I believe George Selios also ran a business selling kits for some
of the structures and pieces he designed, Fine Scale Miniatures, so
wasn't entirely a money-sink

On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 11:58:40 -0000, Mike Coon
<gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote:

>In article <72rprgd31n7et0eh5f7atrdafglvku421o@4ax.com>,
>jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com says...
>>
>> The trains go round and round. Is that amusing, or is the construction
>> the whole point?
>
>If the layout is just a Circle Line I'm sure construction and
>elaboration is the only point.
>
>But people have constructed layouts that replicate shunting logic
>puzzles. And maybe even those ethics challenges of whether to save one
>trespasser or several linesmen (etc)...

OK. I solve mind-bending problems all day and then just want to hike a
hill or read something silly. I guess some people want to work
crosswords or play chess or build things to keep their brains happy.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:50:09 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 12/18/21 9:45 AM, bitrex wrote:
>> On 12/17/21 3:04 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:29:32 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:53:17 -0800, John Larkin
>>>> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>>>>>> "dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel
>>>>>> oxides
>>>>>> deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>>>>>> microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces
>>>>>> micro-arcing
>>>>>> (if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>>>>>> much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it
>>>>>> leaves the
>>>>>> rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral
>>>>>> spirits,
>>>>>> I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>>>>>> some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>>>>>> described.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just curious, why would grown men play with model trains?
>>>>
>>>> It's sorta like grown men chasing picoseconds through components the
>>>> size of peppercorns?
>>>
>>> Designing electronics is continuously interesting, and makes money as
>>> opposed to spending it.
>>>
>>> The trains go round and round. Is that amusing, or is the construction
>>> the whole point?
>>
>> The largest ones are owned and operated by clubs, that type they can and
>> do operate like a real railroad. Print up waybills, have virtual
>> industries, make up and break down the trains and send the "goods" where
>> they need to go. There's no shortage of people actually in the
>> transit/logistics industry involved in the hobby (though often retired.)
>>
>> And sometimes it's mostly art like this Great Depression-era layout was
>> largely scratch-built by one guy over 25 years or so:
>>
>> <https://youtu.be/vvbg_tL9JXM>
>
>Though I believe George Selios also ran a business selling kits for some
>of the structures and pieces he designed, Fine Scale Miniatures, so
>wasn't entirely a money-sink
>

Someone gave us an giant elaborate wooden Christmas village thing
custom-hand-build by some old guy in Germany. I'm not sure what we'll
do with it.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

On 12/18/21 10:51 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:50:09 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On 12/18/21 9:45 AM, bitrex wrote:
>>> On 12/17/21 3:04 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:29:32 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:53:17 -0800, John Larkin
>>>>> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:28:26 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>>>>>>> "dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel
>>>>>>> oxides
>>>>>>> deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>>>>>>> microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces
>>>>>>> micro-arcing
>>>>>>> (if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>>>>>>> much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it
>>>>>>> leaves the
>>>>>>> rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral
>>>>>>> spirits,
>>>>>>> I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>>>>>>> some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>>>>>>> described.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just curious, why would grown men play with model trains?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's sorta like grown men chasing picoseconds through components the
>>>>> size of peppercorns?
>>>>
>>>> Designing electronics is continuously interesting, and makes money as
>>>> opposed to spending it.
>>>>
>>>> The trains go round and round. Is that amusing, or is the construction
>>>> the whole point?
>>>
>>> The largest ones are owned and operated by clubs, that type they can and
>>> do operate like a real railroad. Print up waybills, have virtual
>>> industries, make up and break down the trains and send the "goods" where
>>> they need to go. There's no shortage of people actually in the
>>> transit/logistics industry involved in the hobby (though often retired.)
>>>
>>> And sometimes it's mostly art like this Great Depression-era layout was
>>> largely scratch-built by one guy over 25 years or so:
>>>
>>> <https://youtu.be/vvbg_tL9JXM>
>>
>> Though I believe George Selios also ran a business selling kits for some
>> of the structures and pieces he designed, Fine Scale Miniatures, so
>> wasn't entirely a money-sink
>>
>
> Someone gave us an giant elaborate wooden Christmas village thing
> custom-hand-build by some old guy in Germany. I'm not sure what we'll
> do with it.

I bet someone in SF would be interested, but probably not big money,
sadly the market for handcrafted projects by individuals isn't hot, even
when the workmanship is exceptional. A small model railroad someone sunk
$5000 into might sell for $750 I have a couple custom guitars I
assembled from maybe 2k worth of parts per they'd fetch maybe the same
$750 if I went to sell them as a unit and not part out.

They're nicer instruments for playing than some made by e.g. Fender at
similar price point but the value of some of the latter will only tend
to go up because they're branded. Particularly if they discontinued a
particular model without making too many due to lack of sales...

On 12/18/2021 7:45 AM, bitrex wrote:
> The largest ones are owned and operated by clubs, that type they can and do
> operate like a real railroad. Print up waybills, have virtual industries, make
> up and break down the trains and send the "goods" where they need to go.
> There's no shortage of people actually in the transit/logistics industry
> involved in the hobby (though often retired.)

TMRC had a decent size layout. IIRC, they used an old crossbar switch to
control the switching, displayed "scale time" on the wall, etc. I think it
was transitioning to a small '11 about the time I was on campus.

It was not uncommon to find a single soul sitting in the room tweaking
the controls, layout, etc.

Much like people garden, restore old vehicles/aircraft or any other
"distraction" that allows you to exercise some creativity in a relatively
low-pressure situation.

So much different than being *told* what your goal will be and just
working towards that (regardless of the level of expertise required).

The difference between accounting and storycraft.

One can appreciate the skill that goes into reifying a story on the
big-screen. That's just another type of "engineering".

But, by far, the more awesome task is coming up with the story and the
vision in the first place! I don't know any engineers that have imaginations
that are THAT "unconstrained"! (and, certainly none that willing to make
a commitment to PROVE it!)

> And sometimes it's mostly art like this Great Depression-era layout was largely
> scratch-built by one guy over 25 years or so:

There are several museums that have *really* large layouts. One of the
hardware stores, here, has a layout above the heads of shoppers. Folks
can't help but watch the train as it passes by, overhead.

But, like restoring/maintaining old vehicles, it seems like you'd
forever be "fixing something" -- just to tread water!

On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 11:59:40 AM UTC, Mike Coon wrote:
> In article <72rprgd31n7et0eh5...@4ax.com>,
> jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com says...
> >
> > The trains go round and round. Is that amusing, or is the construction
> > the whole point?
> If the layout is just a Circle Line I'm sure construction and
> elaboration is the only point.
>
> But people have constructed layouts that replicate shunting logic
> puzzles. And maybe even those ethics challenges of whether to save one
> trespasser or several linesmen (etc)...

Agree, the model train (and similar hobbies) stay with us
even into adulthood. They can teach us basic science
in a fun way, and later, nostalgia takes hold. I recall
the rare luxury, mom got me the kid, an AHM HO-scale
set one xmas. (Very basic, as AHM is normally pricey).
It taught me basic electricity and physics. Later, the
power pack served me for a while in powering other
electronic projects (and later, ponder, why did the
manufacturer use selenium rectifier diodes when
silicon was so ubiquitous and cheap....)

On Thursday, 16 December 2021 at 19:28:33 UTC, bitrex wrote:
> The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
> "dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
> deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
> microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>
> So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
> (if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
> much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
> rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
> I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>
> Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
> some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
> described.

very much so. A big cap across the motor helps. A flywheel would help too. Don't know if lead in the loco might improve contact too.
I'm no model train fan, but IIUC arcing burns away some of the crud causing arcing, so it's not a one sided thing.

On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 00:54:49 -0800 (PST), Tabby <tabbypurr@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, 16 December 2021 at 19:28:33 UTC, bitrex wrote:
>> The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get
>> "dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides
>> deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and
>> microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels.
>>
>> So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing
>> (if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too
>> much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the
>> rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits,
>> I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>
>> Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through
>> some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process
>> described.
>
>very much so. A big cap across the motor helps. A flywheel would help too. Don't know if lead in the loco might improve contact too.
>I'm no model train fan, but IIUC arcing burns away some of the crud causing arcing, so it's not a one sided thing.

Why not gold plate everything?

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye