Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform stretch
in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all directions.

Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?

Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the obvious.

bob prohaska

On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform stretch
> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all directions.
>
> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>
> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the obvious.
>
> bob prohaska
>
>

Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.

Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight' is
not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it's mostly
a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to fabric
structure itself.

Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
with no actual material stretch in either case.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 02:16:20 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska
<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:

>Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform stretch
>in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all directions.
>
>Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>
>Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the obvious.
>
>bob prohaska
>

Tubular's are glued onto the rim which is a different shape then that
used for a conventional tire and tube.
https://tinyurl.com/5n6smdzs

While I have never weighed them I "think" a tubular wheel and tire is
probably a bit lighter then a conventional tire and inner tube wheel
and tire.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:16:25 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform stretch
> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all directions.
>
> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>
> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the obvious.
>
> bob prohaska
As Andrew notes, they tend to loosen up a bit. Prestretching does help in some cases but as Andrew notes it doesn't happen overnight. You have to leave it inflated for several weeks, but even then unless you're dealing with a natural fiber casing or very cheap man-made fiber casing it's marginal. I have over 30 years experience with continental Sprinter 250s. They only way they seem to be easy to get on and off is by riding them for several seasons. No amount of pre-stretching has any effect whatsoever. I also vividly remember remember an experience with a low-end Michelin sew-up in the 80's. I removed the tire to repair it (yes, I used to repair sew-ups way back when). When I put it back on the rim it was so loose I wasn't comfortable using it.

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 6:04:45 AM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:16:25 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
> > Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
> > on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
> > or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform stretch
> > in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all directions.
> >
> > Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
> >
> > Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the obvious.
> >
> > bob prohaska
> As Andrew notes, they tend to loosen up a bit. Prestretching does help in some cases but as Andrew notes it doesn't happen overnight. You have to leave it inflated for several weeks, but even then unless you're dealing with a natural fiber casing or very cheap man-made fiber casing it's marginal. I have over 30 years experience with continental Sprinter 250s. They only way they seem to be easy to get on and off is by riding them for several seasons. No amount of pre-stretching has any effect whatsoever. I also vividly remember remember an experience with a low-end Michelin sew-up in the 80's.. I removed the tire to repair it (yes, I used to repair sew-ups way back when). When I put it back on the rim it was so loose I wasn't comfortable using it.

I rode tubular road tires for several years when I first started riding because clincher tires were crap. I don't remember much about them than it only taking 5 minutes to pull off of the flatted old tubular, pull on the spare and pump it up. The spares were always pre-used and glued. I can't remember them getting looser on the rims but that was a hell of a long time ago. In 2024 I pulled a crate of tubulars off of the shelf and threw them away. I can't remember what I was doing but there were green knobbies in the crate. So I guess I started racing cyclocross for awhile.

On 8/11/2023 8:04 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:16:25 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform stretch
>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all directions.
>>
>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>
>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the obvious.
>>
>> bob prohaska
>
> As Andrew notes, they tend to loosen up a bit. Prestretching does help in some cases but as Andrew notes it doesn't happen overnight. You have to leave it inflated for several weeks, but even then unless you're dealing with a natural fiber casing or very cheap man-made fiber casing it's marginal. I have over 30 years experience with continental Sprinter 250s. They only way they seem to be easy to get on and off is by riding them for several seasons. No amount of pre-stretching has any effect whatsoever. I also vividly remember remember an experience with a low-end Michelin sew-up in the 80's. I removed the tire to repair it (yes, I used to repair sew-ups way back when). When I put it back on the rim it was so loose I wasn't comfortable using it.
>

Michelin Nibbio?
Low thread count casing, much like a Pirelli Gran Premio.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:25:55 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/11/2023 8:04 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:16:25 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
> >> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
> >> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
> >> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform stretch
> >> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all directions.
> >>
> >> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
> >>
> >> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the obvious.
> >>
> >> bob prohaska
> >
> > As Andrew notes, they tend to loosen up a bit. Prestretching does help in some cases but as Andrew notes it doesn't happen overnight. You have to leave it inflated for several weeks, but even then unless you're dealing with a natural fiber casing or very cheap man-made fiber casing it's marginal.. I have over 30 years experience with continental Sprinter 250s. They only way they seem to be easy to get on and off is by riding them for several seasons. No amount of pre-stretching has any effect whatsoever. I also vividly remember remember an experience with a low-end Michelin sew-up in the 80's. I removed the tire to repair it (yes, I used to repair sew-ups way back when). When I put it back on the rim it was so loose I wasn't comfortable using it.
> >
> Michelin Nibbio?
> Low thread count casing, much like a Pirelli Gran Premio.
> --

I don't recall the model. I do remember it was recommended as a training tire.

On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform stretch
>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all directions.
>>
>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>
>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the obvious.
>>
>> bob prohaska
>>
>
> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more round and the
> seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>
> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight' is not an
> actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it's  mostly a misidentified
> secondary effect unrelated to fabric structure itself.
>
> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable with no actual
> material stretch in either case.

Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:

ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If you heat up
a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will the hole get bigger or
smaller?" Some people think the expanding wall will make the hole
smaller, but it doesn't. Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows
the hole gets bigger as the metal expands.

And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube to find a
tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere - cross section, outer
diameter, inner diameter.

So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it seems
inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems the inside
diameter would increase.

But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is nearly
inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of different material
that greatly restricts its own increase in length. I'd expect that the
inner circumference and inner diameter of the tire would be almost
independent of tire pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.

But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires, so I'd go
with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer sort of corroborates
mine!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 1:46:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
> >> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
> >> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
> >> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform stretch
> >> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all directions.
> >>
> >> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
> >>
> >> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the obvious.
> >>
> >> bob prohaska
> >>
> >
> > Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more round and the
> > seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
> >
> > Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight' is not an
> > actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it's mostly a misidentified
> > secondary effect unrelated to fabric structure itself.
> >
> > Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable with no actual
> > material stretch in either case.
> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>
> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If you heat up
> a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will the hole get bigger or
> smaller?" Some people think the expanding wall will make the hole
> smaller, but it doesn't. Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows
> the hole gets bigger as the metal expands.
>
> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube to find a
> tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere - cross section, outer
> diameter, inner diameter.
>
> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it seems
> inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems the inside
> diameter would increase.
>
> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is nearly
> inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of different material
> that greatly restricts its own increase in length. I'd expect that the
> inner circumference and inner diameter of the tire would be almost
> independent of tire pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>
> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires, so I'd go
> with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer sort of corroborates
> mine!
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

You didn't say you used tubulars, but you're telling us what they did?

On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>> stretch
>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>> directions.
>>>
>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>
>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>> obvious.
>>>
>>> bob prohaska
>>>
>>
>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>
>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>> fabric structure itself.
>>
>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>
> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>
> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
> bigger as the metal expands.
>
> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>
> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
> the inside diameter would increase.
>
> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>
> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
> sort of corroborates mine!
>

Yes nice explanation.
Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
not.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:12:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
> >>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
> >>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
> >>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
> >>> stretch
> >>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
> >>> directions.
> >>>
> >>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
> >>> obvious.
> >>>
> >>> bob prohaska
> >>>
> >>
> >> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
> >> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
> >>
> >> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
> >> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
> >> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
> >> fabric structure itself.
> >>
> >> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
> >> with no actual material stretch in either case.
> >
> > Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
> >
> > ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
> > you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
> > the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
> > expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
> > Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
> > bigger as the metal expands.
> >
> > And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
> > to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
> > cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
> >
> > So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
> > seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
> > the inside diameter would increase.
> >
> > But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
> > nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
> > different material that greatly restricts its own increase
> > in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
> > diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
> > pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
> >
> > But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
> > so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
> > sort of corroborates mine!
> >
> Yes nice explanation.
> Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
> fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
> not.

I would like to know why they would make tubular rims on which the tire would loosen up and the only thing holding it on the rim would be glue. The underside of a tubular is cloth whereas the upper side is hard rubber. The tire is FORCED to tighten on the rim upon inflation.

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>> stretch
>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>> directions.
>>>>
>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>> obvious.
>>>>
>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>
>>>
>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>
>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>
>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>
>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>
>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>
>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>
>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>
>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>
>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>
>
>Yes nice explanation.
>Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>not.

So is the tubular tire tighter on the rim when inflated, or loser?

On 8/11/2023 4:26 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>>> stretch
>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>>> directions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>
>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>>
>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>>
>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>>
>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>>
>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>>
>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>>
>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>>
>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>>
>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>>
>>
>> Yes nice explanation.
>> Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>> fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>> not.
>
> So is the tubular tire tighter on the rim when inflated, or loser?
>

Under pressure a tubular fits tightly on the rim. This is
readily observed.

Our [RBT} FAQ from Mr Brandt himself:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/

See the penultimate paragraph of section 8b.19 (or the whole
section - reading Brandt generally is a joy)

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:57:54 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/11/2023 4:26 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>>>> stretch
>>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>>>> directions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>>>
>>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>>>
>>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>>>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>>>
>>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>>>
>>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>>>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>>>
>>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>>>
>>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>>>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes nice explanation.
>>> Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>>> fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>>> not.
>>
>> So is the tubular tire tighter on the rim when inflated, or loser?
>>
>
>Under pressure a tubular fits tightly on the rim. This is
>readily observed.
>
>Our [RBT} FAQ from Mr Brandt himself:
>
>http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>
>See the penultimate paragraph of section 8b.19 (or the whole
>section - reading Brandt generally is a joy)

I read a good deal of that. Very interesting. I'd heard the term
"tubular" many times, but never looked it up, so I was totally
ignorant about them.

As for me, one of my primary concerns is to prevent a flat tire. My
choice in tires reflects that, given that I have to guide three wheel
tracks through debri, rather than just one.

I was a bit curious about the changing a tubular faster than a
clincher, thing, but no, I'll never be building a tubular wheel for my
Catrike. The lateral force the trycle exerts on the tire is very
different from a two wheeler. It appears to be the same kind of force
one uses to remove the tubular from the rim.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube to find a
> tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere - cross section, outer
> diameter, inner diameter.
>
> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it seems
> inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems the inside
> diameter would increase.
>
> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is nearly
> inextensible.

Key here being "nearly".

> And the base tape is another layer of different material
> that greatly restricts its own increase in length. I'd expect that the
> inner circumference and inner diameter of the tire would be almost
> independent of tire pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.

If I'm understanding the replies so far it's up to the tire
builder to set the ply angle in a way that makes the major
and minor circumferences expand to keep the tire fitted to
the rim. Presumably one wants a little less growth in the
major circumference and a little more growth in the minor.

It sounds like the base tape would thus see a little compression,
which it can't control and would result in wrinkles if excessive.
That leaves me wondering what the base tape's job is.

Thanks to all who've replied!

bob prohaska

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>> stretch
>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>> directions.
>>>>
>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>> obvious.
>>>>
>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>
>>>
>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>
>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>
>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>
>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>
>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>
>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>
>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>
>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>
>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>
>
>Yes nice explanation.
>Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>not.

Way back when I first started using tubulars, knowing very little
about them and worried that the glue might not hold them securely, I
mounted a new clean tire on a clean rim with no glue and inflated
it... Yup! the inflated tire IS tight on the wheel :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:12:47 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
> >>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
> >>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
> >>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
> >>> stretch
> >>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
> >>> directions.
> >>>
> >>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
> >>> obvious.
> >>>
> >>> bob prohaska
> >>>
> >>
> >> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
> >> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
> >>
> >> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
> >> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
> >> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
> >> fabric structure itself.
> >>
> >> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
> >> with no actual material stretch in either case.
> >
> > Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
> >
> > ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
> > you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
> > the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
> > expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
> > Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
> > bigger as the metal expands.
> >
> > And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
> > to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
> > cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
> >
> > So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
> > seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
> > the inside diameter would increase.
> >
> > But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
> > nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
> > different material that greatly restricts its own increase
> > in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
> > diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
> > pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
> >
> > But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
> > so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
> > sort of corroborates mine!
> >
> Yes nice explanation.
> Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
> fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
> not.

That's an interesting point about the bias and its clamping effect.
It makes sense.

- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:59:09 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Our [RBT} FAQ from Mr Brandt himself:
>
> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>
> See the penultimate paragraph of section 8b.19 (or the whole
> section - reading Brandt generally is a joy)

Agreed! I learned a lot from Jobst.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>>> stretch
>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>>> directions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>
>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>>
>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>>
>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>>
>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>>
>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>>
>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>>
>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>>
>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>>
>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>>
>>
>>Yes nice explanation.
>>Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>>fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>>not.
>
>Way back when I first started using tubulars, knowing very little
>about them and worried that the glue might not hold them securely, I
>mounted a new clean tire on a clean rim with no glue and inflated
>it... Yup! the inflated tire IS tight on the wheel :-)

I still don't see the advantages of using tubular tires, except
perhaps weight. It seems to me that patching one of them out on the
road is a giant pain in the ass compared to patching an innertube, or
simply simply popping a new tube into my clinchers.

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 04:12:47 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>>>> stretch
>>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>>>> directions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>>>
>>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>>>
>>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>>>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>>>
>>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>>>
>>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>>>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>>>
>>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>>>
>>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>>>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yes nice explanation.
>>>Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>>>fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>>>not.
>>
>>Way back when I first started using tubulars, knowing very little
>>about them and worried that the glue might not hold them securely, I
>>mounted a new clean tire on a clean rim with no glue and inflated
>>it... Yup! the inflated tire IS tight on the wheel :-)
>
>I still don't see the advantages of using tubular tires, except
>perhaps weight. It seems to me that patching one of them out on the
>road is a giant pain in the ass compared to patching an innertube, or
>simply simply popping a new tube into my clinchers.

You don't "patch" them on the road. You do that at home at your
leisure :-)
You can fold a deflated tubular small enough that you can easily carry
3 under the rear of the seat, tied on with an old toe strap. Certainly
you will have pre-glued the underseaters so if you get a flat you
stop, pop the wheel off, rip off the flat and replace it with one of
the spares, inflate, pop the wheel back on - quick releases of course
- and you are on your way.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 16:21:39 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 04:12:47 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>>>>> stretch
>>>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>>>>> directions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>>>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>>>>
>>>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>>>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>>>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>>>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>>>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>>>>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>>>>
>>>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>>>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>>>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>>>>
>>>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>>>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>>>>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>>>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>>>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>>>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>>>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>>>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>>>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>>>>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes nice explanation.
>>>>Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>>>>fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>>>>not.
>>>
>>>Way back when I first started using tubulars, knowing very little
>>>about them and worried that the glue might not hold them securely, I
>>>mounted a new clean tire on a clean rim with no glue and inflated
>>>it... Yup! the inflated tire IS tight on the wheel :-)
>>
>>I still don't see the advantages of using tubular tires, except
>>perhaps weight. It seems to me that patching one of them out on the
>>road is a giant pain in the ass compared to patching an innertube, or
>>simply simply popping a new tube into my clinchers.
>
>You don't "patch" them on the road. You do that at home at your
>leisure :-)
>You can fold a deflated tubular small enough that you can easily carry
>3 under the rear of the seat, tied on with an old toe strap. Certainly
>you will have pre-glued the underseaters so if you get a flat you
>stop, pop the wheel off, rip off the flat and replace it with one of
>the spares, inflate, pop the wheel back on - quick releases of course
>- and you are on your way.

Ahhhh, I didn't realize that you could preglue them. Though, correct
me, if I'm wrong, wouldn't the glue make folding and stashing them a
problem? Again, I'm not arguing, just curious, and trying to
understand.

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 05:37:36 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 16:21:39 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 04:12:47 -0400, Catrike Rider
>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>>>>>> stretch
>>>>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>>>>>> directions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>>>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>>>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>>>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>>>>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>>>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>>>>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>>>>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>>>>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>>>>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>>>>>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>>>>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>>>>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>>>>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>>>>>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>>>>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>>>>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>>>>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>>>>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>>>>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>>>>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>>>>>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes nice explanation.
>>>>>Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>>>>>fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>>>>>not.
>>>>
>>>>Way back when I first started using tubulars, knowing very little
>>>>about them and worried that the glue might not hold them securely, I
>>>>mounted a new clean tire on a clean rim with no glue and inflated
>>>>it... Yup! the inflated tire IS tight on the wheel :-)
>>>
>>>I still don't see the advantages of using tubular tires, except
>>>perhaps weight. It seems to me that patching one of them out on the
>>>road is a giant pain in the ass compared to patching an innertube, or
>>>simply simply popping a new tube into my clinchers.
>>
>>You don't "patch" them on the road. You do that at home at your
>>leisure :-)
>>You can fold a deflated tubular small enough that you can easily carry
>>3 under the rear of the seat, tied on with an old toe strap. Certainly
>>you will have pre-glued the underseaters so if you get a flat you
>>stop, pop the wheel off, rip off the flat and replace it with one of
>>the spares, inflate, pop the wheel back on - quick releases of course
>>- and you are on your way.
>
>
>Ahhhh, I didn't realize that you could preglue them. Though, correct
>me, if I'm wrong, wouldn't the glue make folding and stashing them a
>problem? Again, I'm not arguing, just curious, and trying to
>understand.

The glue, or at least the glue that I used, never hardened. It was
always "tacky" so the inner portion of the tire had a layer of "sticky
stuff" and when you put it on the wheel which had previously been
coated with "glue", and was sticky, the tire adhered to the wheel but
as the glue never actually hardened you could pull the tire off the
wheel with a little effort. The "spare tires" were pre glued and while
the glued surfaces did stick together as the glue never actually
hardened you could pull them apart with little effort.,
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 18:25:05 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 05:37:36 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 16:21:39 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 04:12:47 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>>>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>>>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>>>>>>> stretch
>>>>>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>>>>>>> directions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>>>>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>>>>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>>>>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>>>>>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>>>>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>>>>>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>>>>>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>>>>>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>>>>>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>>>>>>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>>>>>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>>>>>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>>>>>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>>>>>>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>>>>>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>>>>>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>>>>>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>>>>>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>>>>>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>>>>>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>>>>>>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes nice explanation.
>>>>>>Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>>>>>>fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>>>>>>not.
>>>>>
>>>>>Way back when I first started using tubulars, knowing very little
>>>>>about them and worried that the glue might not hold them securely, I
>>>>>mounted a new clean tire on a clean rim with no glue and inflated
>>>>>it... Yup! the inflated tire IS tight on the wheel :-)
>>>>
>>>>I still don't see the advantages of using tubular tires, except
>>>>perhaps weight. It seems to me that patching one of them out on the
>>>>road is a giant pain in the ass compared to patching an innertube, or
>>>>simply simply popping a new tube into my clinchers.
>>>
>>>You don't "patch" them on the road. You do that at home at your
>>>leisure :-)
>>>You can fold a deflated tubular small enough that you can easily carry
>>>3 under the rear of the seat, tied on with an old toe strap. Certainly
>>>you will have pre-glued the underseaters so if you get a flat you
>>>stop, pop the wheel off, rip off the flat and replace it with one of
>>>the spares, inflate, pop the wheel back on - quick releases of course
>>>- and you are on your way.
>>
>>
>>Ahhhh, I didn't realize that you could preglue them. Though, correct
>>me, if I'm wrong, wouldn't the glue make folding and stashing them a
>>problem? Again, I'm not arguing, just curious, and trying to
>>understand.
>
>The glue, or at least the glue that I used, never hardened. It was
>always "tacky" so the inner portion of the tire had a layer of "sticky
>stuff" and when you put it on the wheel which had previously been
>coated with "glue", and was sticky, the tire adhered to the wheel but
>as the glue never actually hardened you could pull the tire off the
>wheel with a little effort. The "spare tires" were pre glued and while
>the glued surfaces did stick together as the glue never actually
>hardened you could pull them apart with little effort.,

Thanks. Now that I know a little about them, they do not seem as
"awful" as I had originally imagined. I am, however, going to stick to
my big heavy clinchers. I'm pretty quick at changing out a tube, and
although I seldom do it any more, I'm also good at patching a tube out
on a ride.

On 8/12/2023 3:12 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>>>> stretch
>>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>>>> directions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>>>
>>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>>>
>>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>>>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>>>
>>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>>>
>>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>>>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>>>
>>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>>>
>>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>>>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes nice explanation.
>>> Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>>> fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>>> not.
>>
>> Way back when I first started using tubulars, knowing very little
>> about them and worried that the glue might not hold them securely, I
>> mounted a new clean tire on a clean rim with no glue and inflated
>> it... Yup! the inflated tire IS tight on the wheel :-)
>
> I still don't see the advantages of using tubular tires, except
> perhaps weight. It seems to me that patching one of them out on the
> road is a giant pain in the ass compared to patching an innertube, or
> simply simply popping a new tube into my clinchers.
>

Two different things.

On the road tubular repair would indeed be daunting, likely
more difficult than patching an inner tube in rain or cold.

But as you note a tube replacement is straightforward. As is
a tubular change:
https://biografieonline.it/img/bio/Gino_Bartali_1.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 8/12/2023 4:37 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 16:21:39 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 04:12:47 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>>>>>> stretch
>>>>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>>>>>> directions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>>>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>>>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>>>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>>>>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>>>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>>>>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>>>>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>>>>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>>>>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>>>>>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>>>>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>>>>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>>>>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>>>>>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>>>>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>>>>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>>>>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>>>>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>>>>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>>>>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>>>>>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes nice explanation.
>>>>> Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>>>>> fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>>>>> not.
>>>>
>>>> Way back when I first started using tubulars, knowing very little
>>>> about them and worried that the glue might not hold them securely, I
>>>> mounted a new clean tire on a clean rim with no glue and inflated
>>>> it... Yup! the inflated tire IS tight on the wheel :-)
>>>
>>> I still don't see the advantages of using tubular tires, except
>>> perhaps weight. It seems to me that patching one of them out on the
>>> road is a giant pain in the ass compared to patching an innertube, or
>>> simply simply popping a new tube into my clinchers.
>>
>> You don't "patch" them on the road. You do that at home at your
>> leisure :-)
>> You can fold a deflated tubular small enough that you can easily carry
>> 3 under the rear of the seat, tied on with an old toe strap. Certainly
>> you will have pre-glued the underseaters so if you get a flat you
>> stop, pop the wheel off, rip off the flat and replace it with one of
>> the spares, inflate, pop the wheel back on - quick releases of course
>> - and you are on your way.
>
>
> Ahhhh, I didn't realize that you could preglue them. Though, correct
> me, if I'm wrong, wouldn't the glue make folding and stashing them a
> problem? Again, I'm not arguing, just curious, and trying to
> understand.
>

Tubular cement is a mastic temperature-dependent solution,
similar to contact cement; not at all like cyanoacrylate
which crystallizes rock-hard.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971