On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 6:43:11 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:12:47 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
> > >>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
> > >>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
> > >>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
> > >>> stretch
> > >>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
> > >>> directions.
> > >>>
> > >>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
> > >>> obvious.
> > >>>
> > >>> bob prohaska
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
> > >> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
> > >>
> > >> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
> > >> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
> > >> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
> > >> fabric structure itself.
> > >>
> > >> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
> > >> with no actual material stretch in either case.
> > >
> > > Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
> > >
> > > ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
> > > you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
> > > the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
> > > expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
> > > Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
> > > bigger as the metal expands.
> > >
> > > And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
> > > to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
> > > cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
> > >
> > > So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
> > > seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
> > > the inside diameter would increase.
> > >
> > > But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
> > > nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
> > > different material that greatly restricts its own increase
> > > in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
> > > diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
> > > pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
> > >
> > > But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
> > > so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
> > > sort of corroborates mine!
> > >
> > Yes nice explanation.
> > Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
> > fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
> > not.
> That's an interesting point about the bias and its clamping effect.
> It makes sense.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Frank, when you so clearly have never used tubulars WHY are you commenting on them? All it would take if for you to put a tubular on its unglued rim and inflate it and feel it for you to know that the tire expands inward and bias has nothing to do with it. For crying out loud - why do you think that they are called "sew-ups"?

On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 6:25:17 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/12/2023 4:37 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 16:21:39 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 04:12:47 -0400, Catrike Rider
> >> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:37:51 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
> >>>>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
> >>>>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
> >>>>>>>> stretch
> >>>>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
> >>>>>>>> directions.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
> >>>>>>>> obvious.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> bob prohaska
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
> >>>>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
> >>>>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
> >>>>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
> >>>>>>> fabric structure itself.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
> >>>>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
> >>>>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
> >>>>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
> >>>>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
> >>>>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
> >>>>>> bigger as the metal expands.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
> >>>>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
> >>>>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
> >>>>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
> >>>>>> the inside diameter would increase.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
> >>>>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
> >>>>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
> >>>>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
> >>>>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
> >>>>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
> >>>>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
> >>>>>> sort of corroborates mine!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes nice explanation.
> >>>>> Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
> >>>>> fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
> >>>>> not.
> >>>>
> >>>> Way back when I first started using tubulars, knowing very little
> >>>> about them and worried that the glue might not hold them securely, I
> >>>> mounted a new clean tire on a clean rim with no glue and inflated
> >>>> it... Yup! the inflated tire IS tight on the wheel :-)
> >>>
> >>> I still don't see the advantages of using tubular tires, except
> >>> perhaps weight. It seems to me that patching one of them out on the
> >>> road is a giant pain in the ass compared to patching an innertube, or
> >>> simply simply popping a new tube into my clinchers.
> >>
> >> You don't "patch" them on the road. You do that at home at your
> >> leisure :-)
> >> You can fold a deflated tubular small enough that you can easily carry
> >> 3 under the rear of the seat, tied on with an old toe strap. Certainly
> >> you will have pre-glued the underseaters so if you get a flat you
> >> stop, pop the wheel off, rip off the flat and replace it with one of
> >> the spares, inflate, pop the wheel back on - quick releases of course
> >> - and you are on your way.
> >
> >
> > Ahhhh, I didn't realize that you could preglue them. Though, correct
> > me, if I'm wrong, wouldn't the glue make folding and stashing them a
> > problem? Again, I'm not arguing, just curious, and trying to
> > understand.
> >
> Tubular cement is a mastic temperature-dependent solution,
> similar to contact cement; not at all like cyanoacrylate
> which crystallizes rock-hard.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I still have at least one tube of it down in the garage.

On 8/12/2023 9:39 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 6:43:11 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:12:47 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>>>> stretch
>>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>>>> directions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>>>
>>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>>>
>>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>>>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>>>
>>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>>>
>>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>>>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>>>
>>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>>>
>>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>>>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>>>
>>> Yes nice explanation.
>>> Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>>> fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>>> not.
>> That's an interesting point about the bias and its clamping effect.
>> It makes sense.
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Frank, when you so clearly have never used tubulars WHY are you commenting on them? All it would take if for you to put a tubular on its unglued rim and inflate it and feel it for you to know that the tire expands inward and bias has nothing to do with it.

Hmm. Jobst Brandt says the bias has something definite to do with it.
Andrew Musi seems to agree with Jobst. Visualizing the effect of the
bias fabric during inflation tells me the same thing.

Your claim that "bias has nothing to do with it" seems like your typical
uninformed spouting.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:44:52 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 18:25:05 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 05:37:36 -0400, Catrike Rider
>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 16:21:39 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 04:12:47 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>>>>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>>>>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>>>>>>>> stretch
>>>>>>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>>>>>>>> directions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>>>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>>>>>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>>>>>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>>>>>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>>>>>>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>>>>>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>>>>>>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>>>>>>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>>>>>>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>>>>>>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>>>>>>>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>>>>>>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>>>>>>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>>>>>>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>>>>>>>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>>>>>>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>>>>>>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>>>>>>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>>>>>>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>>>>>>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>>>>>>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>>>>>>>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes nice explanation.
>>>>>>>Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>>>>>>>fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>>>>>>>not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Way back when I first started using tubulars, knowing very little
>>>>>>about them and worried that the glue might not hold them securely, I
>>>>>>mounted a new clean tire on a clean rim with no glue and inflated
>>>>>>it... Yup! the inflated tire IS tight on the wheel :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>I still don't see the advantages of using tubular tires, except
>>>>>perhaps weight. It seems to me that patching one of them out on the
>>>>>road is a giant pain in the ass compared to patching an innertube, or
>>>>>simply simply popping a new tube into my clinchers.
>>>>
>>>>You don't "patch" them on the road. You do that at home at your
>>>>leisure :-)
>>>>You can fold a deflated tubular small enough that you can easily carry
>>>>3 under the rear of the seat, tied on with an old toe strap. Certainly
>>>>you will have pre-glued the underseaters so if you get a flat you
>>>>stop, pop the wheel off, rip off the flat and replace it with one of
>>>>the spares, inflate, pop the wheel back on - quick releases of course
>>>>- and you are on your way.
>>>
>>>
>>>Ahhhh, I didn't realize that you could preglue them. Though, correct
>>>me, if I'm wrong, wouldn't the glue make folding and stashing them a
>>>problem? Again, I'm not arguing, just curious, and trying to
>>>understand.
>>
>>The glue, or at least the glue that I used, never hardened. It was
>>always "tacky" so the inner portion of the tire had a layer of "sticky
>>stuff" and when you put it on the wheel which had previously been
>>coated with "glue", and was sticky, the tire adhered to the wheel but
>>as the glue never actually hardened you could pull the tire off the
>>wheel with a little effort. The "spare tires" were pre glued and while
>>the glued surfaces did stick together as the glue never actually
>>hardened you could pull them apart with little effort.,
>
>Thanks. Now that I know a little about them, they do not seem as
>"awful" as I had originally imagined. I am, however, going to stick to
>my big heavy clinchers. I'm pretty quick at changing out a tube, and
>although I seldom do it any more, I'm also good at patching a tube out
>on a ride.

"Horses for courses" as they say.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 08:13:31 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/12/2023 3:12 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>>>>> stretch
>>>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>>>>> directions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>>>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>>>>
>>>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>>>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>>>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>>>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>>>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>>>>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>>>>
>>>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>>>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>>>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>>>>
>>>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>>>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>>>>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>>>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>>>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>>>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>>>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>>>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>>>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>>>>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes nice explanation.
>>>> Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>>>> fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>>>> not.
>>>
>>> Way back when I first started using tubulars, knowing very little
>>> about them and worried that the glue might not hold them securely, I
>>> mounted a new clean tire on a clean rim with no glue and inflated
>>> it... Yup! the inflated tire IS tight on the wheel :-)
>>
>> I still don't see the advantages of using tubular tires, except
>> perhaps weight. It seems to me that patching one of them out on the
>> road is a giant pain in the ass compared to patching an innertube, or
>> simply simply popping a new tube into my clinchers.
>>
>
>Two different things.
>
>On the road tubular repair would indeed be daunting, likely
>more difficult than patching an inner tube in rain or cold.
>
>But as you note a tube replacement is straightforward. As is
>a tubular change:
>https://biografieonline.it/img/bio/Gino_Bartali_1.jpg

It's strange. I never thought that carrying spare inner tubes might be
better then "fixing a flat" nor have I ever seen anyone doing such a
thing. But when you think about it does seem a logical thing to do.

Rather then the alternate, to be setting in the mud on the side of the
road trying to get a patch to stick to a wet tube when it is
thundering down rain :-(

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 05:54:58 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 08:13:31 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 8/12/2023 3:12 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:12:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>>>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
>>>>>>>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
>>>>>>>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
>>>>>>>> stretch
>>>>>>>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
>>>>>>>> directions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
>>>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
>>>>>>> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
>>>>>>> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
>>>>>>> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
>>>>>>> fabric structure itself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
>>>>>>> with no actual material stretch in either case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
>>>>>> you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
>>>>>> the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
>>>>>> expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
>>>>>> Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
>>>>>> bigger as the metal expands.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
>>>>>> to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
>>>>>> cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
>>>>>> seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
>>>>>> the inside diameter would increase.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
>>>>>> nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
>>>>>> different material that greatly restricts its own increase
>>>>>> in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
>>>>>> diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
>>>>>> pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
>>>>>> so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
>>>>>> sort of corroborates mine!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes nice explanation.
>>>>> Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
>>>>> fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
>>>>> not.
>>>>
>>>> Way back when I first started using tubulars, knowing very little
>>>> about them and worried that the glue might not hold them securely, I
>>>> mounted a new clean tire on a clean rim with no glue and inflated
>>>> it... Yup! the inflated tire IS tight on the wheel :-)
>>>
>>> I still don't see the advantages of using tubular tires, except
>>> perhaps weight. It seems to me that patching one of them out on the
>>> road is a giant pain in the ass compared to patching an innertube, or
>>> simply simply popping a new tube into my clinchers.
>>>
>>
>>Two different things.
>>
>>On the road tubular repair would indeed be daunting, likely
>>more difficult than patching an inner tube in rain or cold.
>>
>>But as you note a tube replacement is straightforward. As is
>>a tubular change:
>>https://biografieonline.it/img/bio/Gino_Bartali_1.jpg
>
>It's strange. I never thought that carrying spare inner tubes might be
>better then "fixing a flat" nor have I ever seen anyone doing such a
>thing. But when you think about it does seem a logical thing to do.
>
>Rather then the alternate, to be setting in the mud on the side of the
>road trying to get a patch to stick to a wet tube when it is
>thundering down rain :-(

Once I found the leak, slapping on a patch was a snap.

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 7:12:37 p.m. UTC-5, bob prohaska wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube to find a
> > tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere - cross section, outer
> > diameter, inner diameter.
> >
> > So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it seems
> > inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems the inside
> > diameter would increase.
> >
> > But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is nearly
> > inextensible.
> Key here being "nearly".
> > And the base tape is another layer of different material
> > that greatly restricts its own increase in length. I'd expect that the
> > inner circumference and inner diameter of the tire would be almost
> > independent of tire pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
> If I'm understanding the replies so far it's up to the tire
> builder to set the ply angle in a way that makes the major
> and minor circumferences expand to keep the tire fitted to
> the rim. Presumably one wants a little less growth in the
> major circumference and a little more growth in the minor.
>
> It sounds like the base tape would thus see a little compression,
> which it can't control and would result in wrinkles if excessive.
> That leaves me wondering what the base tape's job is.
>
> Thanks to all who've replied!
>
> bob prohaska

The base tape covers and thereby protects the stitching of the tire casing, and also serves as the surface you apply the cement to in order to mount the tire securely.

Cheers

On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 9:39:21 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 6:43:11 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:12:47 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
> > > >>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
> > > >>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
> > > >>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
> > > >>> stretch
> > > >>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
> > > >>> directions.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
> > > >>> obvious.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> bob prohaska
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
> > > >> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
> > > >>
> > > >> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
> > > >> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
> > > >> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
> > > >> fabric structure itself.
> > > >>
> > > >> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
> > > >> with no actual material stretch in either case.
> > > >
> > > > Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
> > > >
> > > > ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
> > > > you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
> > > > the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
> > > > expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
> > > > Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
> > > > bigger as the metal expands.
> > > >
> > > > And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
> > > > to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
> > > > cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
> > > >
> > > > So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
> > > > seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
> > > > the inside diameter would increase.
> > > >
> > > > But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
> > > > nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
> > > > different material that greatly restricts its own increase
> > > > in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
> > > > diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
> > > > pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
> > > >
> > > > But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
> > > > so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
> > > > sort of corroborates mine!
> > > >
> > > Yes nice explanation.
> > > Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
> > > fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
> > > not.
> > That's an interesting point about the bias and its clamping effect.
> > It makes sense.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Frank, when you so clearly have never used tubulars WHY are you commenting on them? All it would take if for you to put a tubular on its unglued rim and inflate it and feel it for you to know that the tire expands inward and bias has nothing to do with it. For crying out loud - why do you think that they are called "sew-ups"?

They're called sew-ups because of the construction technique, you idiot. It has nothing to do with mounting the tire.

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:26:13 AM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 9:39:21 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 6:43:11 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:12:47 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > On 8/10/2023 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > >> On 8/10/2023 9:16 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
> > > > >>> Do tubular tires get tighter, or looser, as they're inflated
> > > > >>> on a rim? I've never so much as seen one, much less handled
> > > > >>> or ridden on one, but I'm curious anyway. Given uniform
> > > > >>> stretch
> > > > >>> in the casing, it seems likely they'd get bigger in all
> > > > >>> directions.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Is that what motivated the invention of wired-on clinchers?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Thanks for reading, and apologies if I'm overlooking the
> > > > >>> obvious.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> bob prohaska
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Marginally looser in that the cross section becomes more
> > > > >> round and the seam lays flat. It's a small effect.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Mythical 'tubular pre stretch' as in 'inflate overnight'
> > > > >> is not an actual thing IME. Like 'cable stretch', it'sÂ
> > > > >> mostly a misidentified secondary effect unrelated to
> > > > >> fabric structure itself.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Used (ridden) tubulars are as 'seated in' as a used cable
> > > > >> with no actual material stretch in either case.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob may want to clear this up a bit, but:
> > > > >
> > > > > ISTM that what Bob's asking is akin to the old questions "If
> > > > > you heat up a ring or tube made of metal so it expands, will
> > > > > the hole get bigger or smaller?" Some people think the
> > > > > expanding wall will make the hole smaller, but it doesn't.
> > > > > Anyone who's ever assembled a shrink fit knows the hole gets
> > > > > bigger as the metal expands.
> > > > >
> > > > > And anyone who's purposely over-inflated a loose inner tube
> > > > > to find a tiny leak knows the tube gets bigger everywhere -
> > > > > cross section, outer diameter, inner diameter.
> > > > >
> > > > > So _IF_ inflating a tubular tire were analogous to that, it
> > > > > seems inflating it would make it looser on the rim. It seems
> > > > > the inside diameter would increase.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I don't think the analogy works. The tire's fabric is
> > > > > nearly inextensible. And the base tape is another layer of
> > > > > different material that greatly restricts its own increase
> > > > > in length. I'd expect that the inner circumference and inner
> > > > > diameter of the tire would be almost independent of tire
> > > > > pressure, as would the tightness on the rim.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I have only a few hours experience with tubular tires,
> > > > > so I'd go with what Andrew says. Especially since his answer
> > > > > sort of corroborates mine!
> > > > >
> > > > Yes nice explanation.
> > > > Further, as Jobst noted regularly, the bias cut of the
> > > > fabric makes a tubular tighter on the rim inflated than when
> > > > not.
> > > That's an interesting point about the bias and its clamping effect.
> > > It makes sense.
> > >
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > Frank, when you so clearly have never used tubulars WHY are you commenting on them? All it would take if for you to put a tubular on its unglued rim and inflate it and feel it for you to know that the tire expands inward and bias has nothing to do with it. For crying out loud - why do you think that they are called "sew-ups"?
> They're called sew-ups because of the construction technique, you idiot. It has nothing to do with mounting the tire.

The base tape is glued onto the stitching and the stitching EXPANDS downwards as it takes up the slack in the stitches. Since you raced I assume that you put unglued sewups on a tubular rim and pumped them up to "expand" them? Did you ever find a tubular getting looser on the rim? That is what triggered that discussion.

Did you ever repair a sewup by pulling the base tape free, cutting the threads on the sewup, pulling the leaky tube out enough to patch it and then putting everything back the way it was?

I don't have the slightest idea where some of these discussions come from - outer space it seems. Or the work of the Devil.

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:07:14 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:26:13 AM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail..com wrote:
> >
> > > Frank, when you so clearly have never used tubulars WHY are you commenting on them? All it would take if for you to put a tubular on its unglued rim and inflate it and feel it for you to know that the tire expands inward and bias has nothing to do with it. For crying out loud - why do you think that they are called "sew-ups"?
> >
> > They're called sew-ups because of the construction technique, you idiot.. It has nothing to do with mounting the tire.
>
> The base tape is glued onto the stitching and the stitching EXPANDS downwards as it takes up the slack in the stitches.

And the reason they're called sew-ups is because they are sewn together, not because of the way they are mounted.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_tp-z.html#tubular
"A tubular tire has no beads; instead, the two edges of the carcass are sewn together (hence the term "sew-up") with the inner tube inside. "

> Since you raced I assume that you put unglued sewups on a tubular rim and pumped them up to "expand" them? Did you ever find a tubular getting looser on the rim? That is what triggered that discussion.

Yes, I noted that above.

> Did you ever repair a sewup by pulling the base tape free, cutting the threads on the sewup, pulling the leaky tube out enough to patch it and then putting everything back the way it was?

Yes, I noted that above as well. I still have my old Velox repair kit in the orange steel box: Needle, thimble, and thread.

> I don't have the slightest idea where some of these discussions come from - outer space it seems. Or the work of the Devil.

They're usually fine until you get involved.

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 5:29:31 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:07:14 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:26:13 AM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Frank, when you so clearly have never used tubulars WHY are you commenting on them? All it would take if for you to put a tubular on its unglued rim and inflate it and feel it for you to know that the tire expands inward and bias has nothing to do with it. For crying out loud - why do you think that they are called "sew-ups"?
> > >
> > > They're called sew-ups because of the construction technique, you idiot. It has nothing to do with mounting the tire.
> >
> > The base tape is glued onto the stitching and the stitching EXPANDS downwards as it takes up the slack in the stitches.
> And the reason they're called sew-ups is because they are sewn together, not because of the way they are mounted.
> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_tp-z.html#tubular
> "A tubular tire has no beads; instead, the two edges of the carcass are sewn together (hence the term "sew-up") with the inner tube inside. "
> > Since you raced I assume that you put unglued sewups on a tubular rim and pumped them up to "expand" them? Did you ever find a tubular getting looser on the rim? That is what triggered that discussion.
> Yes, I noted that above.
> > Did you ever repair a sewup by pulling the base tape free, cutting the threads on the sewup, pulling the leaky tube out enough to patch it and then putting everything back the way it was?
> Yes, I noted that above as well. I still have my old Velox repair kit in the orange steel box: Needle, thimble, and thread.
> > I don't have the slightest idea where some of these discussions come from - outer space it seems. Or the work of the Devil.
> They're usually fine until you get involved.

You stupid idiot, you agreed with Andrew when you had no idea what he meant..

"As Andrew notes, they tend to loosen up a bit. Prestretching does help in some cases but as Andrew notes it doesn't happen overnight. You have to leave it inflated for several weeks, but even then unless you're dealing with a natural fiber casing or very cheap man-made fiber casing it's marginal. I have over 30 years experience with continental Sprinter 250s. They only way they seem to be easy to get on and off is by riding them for several seasons. No amount of pre-stretching has any effect whatsoever. I also vividly remember remember an experience with a low-end Michelin sew-up in the 80's. I removed the tire to repair it (yes, I used to repair sew-ups way back when). When I put it back on the rim it was so loose I wasn't comfortable using it."

He was talking about the installation of the tire on the rim and you like the idiot with everything you do meant that the tire EXPANDS outward when you inflate it making it looser on the rim.

It's one thing when you're commenting about things you're familiar with but that seems to be getting more and more rare with you.

When you inflate a tubular on a rim it gets tighter on the rim. The glue keeps the tire from rotating on the rim and tearing the filler out. I suppose that it also keeps fatter tires from rolling off of the rim as well since my CX tubulars were 32 mm but I can't recall that. I do remember that the glue would harden and I had a special tool to use to scrap the old glue off of the rim. The Clement glue I have down in the garage doesn't harden all the way if I remember correctly.

Comment all you like but try to stick to things you know something about. Your comments about using a power meter at your age is ridiculous. If you're curious about the changes over time at least be man enough to say so.

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 7:28:12 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 5:29:31 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail..com wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:07:14 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:26:13 AM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Frank, when you so clearly have never used tubulars WHY are you commenting on them? All it would take if for you to put a tubular on its unglued rim and inflate it and feel it for you to know that the tire expands inward and bias has nothing to do with it. For crying out loud - why do you think that they are called "sew-ups"?
> > > >
> > > > They're called sew-ups because of the construction technique, you idiot. It has nothing to do with mounting the tire.
> > >
> > > The base tape is glued onto the stitching and the stitching EXPANDS downwards as it takes up the slack in the stitches.
> > And the reason they're called sew-ups is because they are sewn together, not because of the way they are mounted.
> > https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_tp-z.html#tubular
> > "A tubular tire has no beads; instead, the two edges of the carcass are sewn together (hence the term "sew-up") with the inner tube inside. "
> > > Since you raced I assume that you put unglued sewups on a tubular rim and pumped them up to "expand" them? Did you ever find a tubular getting looser on the rim? That is what triggered that discussion.
> > Yes, I noted that above.
> > > Did you ever repair a sewup by pulling the base tape free, cutting the threads on the sewup, pulling the leaky tube out enough to patch it and then putting everything back the way it was?
> > Yes, I noted that above as well. I still have my old Velox repair kit in the orange steel box: Needle, thimble, and thread.
> > > I don't have the slightest idea where some of these discussions come from - outer space it seems. Or the work of the Devil.
> > They're usually fine until you get involved.
> You stupid idiot, you agreed with Andrew when you had no idea what he meant.
>
> "As Andrew notes, they tend to loosen up a bit. Prestretching does help in some cases but as Andrew notes it doesn't happen overnight. You have to leave it inflated for several weeks, but even then unless you're dealing with a natural fiber casing or very cheap man-made fiber casing it's marginal. I have over 30 years experience with continental Sprinter 250s. They only way they seem to be easy to get on and off is by riding them for several seasons. No amount of pre-stretching has any effect whatsoever. I also vividly remember remember an experience with a low-end Michelin sew-up in the 80's. I removed the tire to repair it (yes, I used to repair sew-ups way back when). When I put it back on the rim it was so loose I wasn't comfortable using it."
>
> He was talking about the installation of the tire on the rim and you like the idiot with everything you do meant that the tire EXPANDS outward when you inflate it making it looser on the rim.

No, that's not what I wrote. Try some reading comprehension. The question was 'do tubulars loosen up when mounted?" the answer from andrew and me was 'yes, but not much'. I related an anecdote with a cheap tire that actually loosened up quite a bit because it stretched over time- FWIW, Andrew didn't call me out for being wrong (like he does often with you) he asked what brand an model of tire it was. I suspect he's experienced this as well.

Dip shit, the contest here was your question "why do you think that they are called "sew-ups"?

IT's because of the way they are built, not because of the way they are mounted. Who's word on cycling expertise do you think we're going to take, Sheldon brown ("A tubular tire has no beads; instead, the two edges of the carcass are sewn together (hence the term "sew-up") with the inner tube inside.. " or you, who can't build a bike without something falling off?

> It's one thing when you're commenting about things you're familiar with but that seems to be getting more and more rare with you.

I've been racing on sew-ups for nearly 40 years. I probably know more about sew-up mounting, remounting and repair than any one here with the possible exception of Andrew.

>
> When you inflate a tubular on a rim it gets tighter on the rim. The glue keeps the tire from rotating on the rim and tearing the filler out. I suppose that it also keeps fatter tires from rolling off of the rim as well since my CX tubulars were 32 mm but I can't recall that. I do remember that the glue would harden and I had a special tool to use to scrap the old glue off of the rim. The Clement glue I have down in the garage doesn't harden all the way if I remember correctly.

None of which has anything to do with why they are called sew-up, idiot.

>
> Comment all you like but try to stick to things you know something about.

I have three wheelsets with sew-ups installed - A older set of Zipp 303's with Tufo Elites, a set of Zipp 303 Firecrest with Tufo Chicanes for Cx, and a Mavic Rear Disc with a Continental Sprinter 250
You have an old tube of glue lying around in the basement somewhere.....take your own advice jackass....

> Your comments about using a power meter at your age is ridiculous. If you're curious about the changes over time at least be man enough to say so.
I use it to train to stay competitive. There is a sizable group of riders up here all in our 50's and 60's who have been racing together for well over 20 years....I've been lining up with a few of them since the early 90's. We all have training programs and use powermeters. Just because you were never able to handle a corner at more than 15 mph with any rider closer the ten feet doesn't mean no one else here has any racing experience.

You're a loudmouth arrogant old asshole who's wrong 90% of the time on every subject. How about you be a man and admit you're wrong.

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 3:27:17 AM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 7:28:12 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 5:29:31 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:07:14 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:26:13 AM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Frank, when you so clearly have never used tubulars WHY are you commenting on them? All it would take if for you to put a tubular on its unglued rim and inflate it and feel it for you to know that the tire expands inward and bias has nothing to do with it. For crying out loud - why do you think that they are called "sew-ups"?
> > > > >
> > > > > They're called sew-ups because of the construction technique, you idiot. It has nothing to do with mounting the tire.
> > > >
> > > > The base tape is glued onto the stitching and the stitching EXPANDS downwards as it takes up the slack in the stitches.
> > > And the reason they're called sew-ups is because they are sewn together, not because of the way they are mounted.
> > > https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_tp-z.html#tubular
> > > "A tubular tire has no beads; instead, the two edges of the carcass are sewn together (hence the term "sew-up") with the inner tube inside. "
> > > > Since you raced I assume that you put unglued sewups on a tubular rim and pumped them up to "expand" them? Did you ever find a tubular getting looser on the rim? That is what triggered that discussion.
> > > Yes, I noted that above.
> > > > Did you ever repair a sewup by pulling the base tape free, cutting the threads on the sewup, pulling the leaky tube out enough to patch it and then putting everything back the way it was?
> > > Yes, I noted that above as well. I still have my old Velox repair kit in the orange steel box: Needle, thimble, and thread.
> > > > I don't have the slightest idea where some of these discussions come from - outer space it seems. Or the work of the Devil.
> > > They're usually fine until you get involved.
> > You stupid idiot, you agreed with Andrew when you had no idea what he meant.
> >
> > "As Andrew notes, they tend to loosen up a bit. Prestretching does help in some cases but as Andrew notes it doesn't happen overnight. You have to leave it inflated for several weeks, but even then unless you're dealing with a natural fiber casing or very cheap man-made fiber casing it's marginal. I have over 30 years experience with continental Sprinter 250s. They only way they seem to be easy to get on and off is by riding them for several seasons. No amount of pre-stretching has any effect whatsoever. I also vividly remember remember an experience with a low-end Michelin sew-up in the 80's. I removed the tire to repair it (yes, I used to repair sew-ups way back when). When I put it back on the rim it was so loose I wasn't comfortable using it."
> >
> > He was talking about the installation of the tire on the rim and you like the idiot with everything you do meant that the tire EXPANDS outward when you inflate it making it looser on the rim.
> No, that's not what I wrote. Try some reading comprehension. The question was 'do tubulars loosen up when mounted?" the answer from andrew and me was 'yes, but not much'. I related an anecdote with a cheap tire that actually loosened up quite a bit because it stretched over time- FWIW, Andrew didn't call me out for being wrong (like he does often with you) he asked what brand an model of tire it was. I suspect he's experienced this as well.
>
> Dip shit, the contest here was your question "why do you think that they are called "sew-ups"?
>
> IT's because of the way they are built, not because of the way they are mounted. Who's word on cycling expertise do you think we're going to take, Sheldon brown ("A tubular tire has no beads; instead, the two edges of the carcass are sewn together (hence the term "sew-up") with the inner tube inside. " or you, who can't build a bike without something falling off?
> > It's one thing when you're commenting about things you're familiar with but that seems to be getting more and more rare with you.
> I've been racing on sew-ups for nearly 40 years. I probably know more about sew-up mounting, remounting and repair than any one here with the possible exception of Andrew.
> >
> > When you inflate a tubular on a rim it gets tighter on the rim. The glue keeps the tire from rotating on the rim and tearing the filler out. I suppose that it also keeps fatter tires from rolling off of the rim as well since my CX tubulars were 32 mm but I can't recall that. I do remember that the glue would harden and I had a special tool to use to scrap the old glue off of the rim. The Clement glue I have down in the garage doesn't harden all the way if I remember correctly.
> None of which has anything to do with why they are called sew-up, idiot.
> >
> > Comment all you like but try to stick to things you know something about.
> I have three wheelsets with sew-ups installed - A older set of Zipp 303's with Tufo Elites, a set of Zipp 303 Firecrest with Tufo Chicanes for Cx, and a Mavic Rear Disc with a Continental Sprinter 250
> You have an old tube of glue lying around in the basement somewhere.....take your own advice jackass....
> > Your comments about using a power meter at your age is ridiculous. If you're curious about the changes over time at least be man enough to say so.
> I use it to train to stay competitive. There is a sizable group of riders up here all in our 50's and 60's who have been racing together for well over 20 years....I've been lining up with a few of them since the early 90's. We all have training programs and use powermeters. Just because you were never able to handle a corner at more than 15 mph with any rider closer the ten feet doesn't mean no one else here has any racing experience.
>
> You're a loudmouth arrogant old asshole who's wrong 90% of the time on every subject. How about you be a man and admit you're wrong.

You know more than anyone here about sewups and yet agreed that they got looser on the rims when inflated. If that is your sort of knowledge you can keep it. The very fact that they ARE sewn together makes the idea that they expand on both the inside and outside diameter nothing more than someone's wild eyed theory.

But I'm sure that you can still think that the looser end of the tires do not expand outwards which is a reduction of inside diameter. I'm still waiting for your explanation of why an inflated tubular gets tighter on the rim and not looser.

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 10:54:41 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 3:27:17 AM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 7:28:12 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 5:29:31 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:07:14 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 6:26:13 AM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Frank, when you so clearly have never used tubulars WHY are you commenting on them? All it would take if for you to put a tubular on its unglued rim and inflate it and feel it for you to know that the tire expands inward and bias has nothing to do with it. For crying out loud - why do you think that they are called "sew-ups"?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They're called sew-ups because of the construction technique, you idiot. It has nothing to do with mounting the tire.
> > > > >
> > > > > The base tape is glued onto the stitching and the stitching EXPANDS downwards as it takes up the slack in the stitches.
> > > > And the reason they're called sew-ups is because they are sewn together, not because of the way they are mounted.
> > > > https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_tp-z.html#tubular
> > > > "A tubular tire has no beads; instead, the two edges of the carcass are sewn together (hence the term "sew-up") with the inner tube inside. "
> > > > > Since you raced I assume that you put unglued sewups on a tubular rim and pumped them up to "expand" them? Did you ever find a tubular getting looser on the rim? That is what triggered that discussion.
> > > > Yes, I noted that above.
> > > > > Did you ever repair a sewup by pulling the base tape free, cutting the threads on the sewup, pulling the leaky tube out enough to patch it and then putting everything back the way it was?
> > > > Yes, I noted that above as well. I still have my old Velox repair kit in the orange steel box: Needle, thimble, and thread.
> > > > > I don't have the slightest idea where some of these discussions come from - outer space it seems. Or the work of the Devil.
> > > > They're usually fine until you get involved.
> > > You stupid idiot, you agreed with Andrew when you had no idea what he meant.
> > >
> > > "As Andrew notes, they tend to loosen up a bit. Prestretching does help in some cases but as Andrew notes it doesn't happen overnight. You have to leave it inflated for several weeks, but even then unless you're dealing with a natural fiber casing or very cheap man-made fiber casing it's marginal. I have over 30 years experience with continental Sprinter 250s. They only way they seem to be easy to get on and off is by riding them for several seasons. No amount of pre-stretching has any effect whatsoever. I also vividly remember remember an experience with a low-end Michelin sew-up in the 80's. I removed the tire to repair it (yes, I used to repair sew-ups way back when). When I put it back on the rim it was so loose I wasn't comfortable using it."
> > >
> > > He was talking about the installation of the tire on the rim and you like the idiot with everything you do meant that the tire EXPANDS outward when you inflate it making it looser on the rim.
> > No, that's not what I wrote. Try some reading comprehension. The question was 'do tubulars loosen up when mounted?" the answer from andrew and me was 'yes, but not much'. I related an anecdote with a cheap tire that actually loosened up quite a bit because it stretched over time- FWIW, Andrew didn't call me out for being wrong (like he does often with you) he asked what brand an model of tire it was. I suspect he's experienced this as well.
> >
> > Dip shit, the contest here was your question "why do you think that they are called "sew-ups"?
> >
> > IT's because of the way they are built, not because of the way they are mounted. Who's word on cycling expertise do you think we're going to take, Sheldon brown ("A tubular tire has no beads; instead, the two edges of the carcass are sewn together (hence the term "sew-up") with the inner tube inside. " or you, who can't build a bike without something falling off?
> > > It's one thing when you're commenting about things you're familiar with but that seems to be getting more and more rare with you.
> > I've been racing on sew-ups for nearly 40 years. I probably know more about sew-up mounting, remounting and repair than any one here with the possible exception of Andrew.
> > >
> > > When you inflate a tubular on a rim it gets tighter on the rim. The glue keeps the tire from rotating on the rim and tearing the filler out. I suppose that it also keeps fatter tires from rolling off of the rim as well since my CX tubulars were 32 mm but I can't recall that. I do remember that the glue would harden and I had a special tool to use to scrap the old glue off of the rim. The Clement glue I have down in the garage doesn't harden all the way if I remember correctly.
> > None of which has anything to do with why they are called sew-up, idiot..
> > >
> > > Comment all you like but try to stick to things you know something about.
> > I have three wheelsets with sew-ups installed - A older set of Zipp 303's with Tufo Elites, a set of Zipp 303 Firecrest with Tufo Chicanes for Cx, and a Mavic Rear Disc with a Continental Sprinter 250
> > You have an old tube of glue lying around in the basement somewhere......take your own advice jackass....
> > > Your comments about using a power meter at your age is ridiculous. If you're curious about the changes over time at least be man enough to say so.
> > I use it to train to stay competitive. There is a sizable group of riders up here all in our 50's and 60's who have been racing together for well over 20 years....I've been lining up with a few of them since the early 90's. We all have training programs and use powermeters. Just because you were never able to handle a corner at more than 15 mph with any rider closer the ten feet doesn't mean no one else here has any racing experience.
> >
> > You're a loudmouth arrogant old asshole who's wrong 90% of the time on every subject. How about you be a man and admit you're wrong.
>
> You know more than anyone here about sewups and yet agreed that they got looser on the rims when inflated.

For the Second time, you idiot, that is _not_ what I wrote.

> If that is your sort of knowledge you can keep it.

IT only reveals your dismal reading comprehension.

> The very fact that they ARE sewn together makes the idea that they expand on both the inside and outside diameter nothing more than someone's wild eyed theory.

No one wrote that.
> But I'm sure that you can still think that the looser end of the tires do not expand outwards which is a reduction of inside diameter. I'm still waiting for your explanation of why an inflated tubular gets tighter on the rim and not looser.

The mechanism was already aptly explained by Frank and agreed with by Andrew, who further linked to Jobst's explanation. I'm not contradicting any of it. The only person seeming to have an issue with it is you.

And none of this has anything to do with why it's called a sew-up:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_tp-z.html#tubular
"A tubular tire has no beads; instead, the two edges of the carcass are sewn together (hence the term "sew-up") with the inner tube inside. "

Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> The base tape covers and thereby protects the stitching of the tire casing, and also serves as the surface you apply the cement to in order to mount the tire securely.
>

I'm having trouble visualizing the setup. The tire casing needs one
seam to close it, leaving two flaps of fabric. Are those each sewn
to the base tape? Is there glue between base tape and casing, or
only between base tape and rim?

I looked for a good illustration and didn't find one, if somebody
has better luck please post a link!

Thanks very much,

bob prohaska

On Thu, 17 Aug 2023 04:20:22 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska
<bp@www.zefox.net> wrote:

>Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>> The base tape covers and thereby protects the stitching of the tire casing, and also serves as the surface you apply the cement to in order to mount the tire securely.
>>
>
>I'm having trouble visualizing the setup. The tire casing needs one
>seam to close it, leaving two flaps of fabric. Are those each sewn
>to the base tape? Is there glue between base tape and casing, or
>only between base tape and rim?
>
>I looked for a good illustration and didn't find one, if somebody
>has better luck please post a link!
>
>Thanks very much,
>
>bob prohaska
>
https://www.challengetires.com/technology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuosST7TiZE

Forget the fact that it is a circle and think of wrapping your
handkerchief around a broomstick. Where the edges meet sew them
together. You now have a tube. To protect your stitches glue a strip
of fabric lengthwise along the tube to cover the stitches.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 12:20:26 AM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >
> > The base tape covers and thereby protects the stitching of the tire casing, and also serves as the surface you apply the cement to in order to mount the tire securely.
> >
> I'm having trouble visualizing the setup. The tire casing needs one
> seam to close it, leaving two flaps of fabric. Are those each sewn
> to the base tape?

No, they are stitched together, think about what a surgeon would do when he closes you after surgery.

>Is there glue between base tape and casing, or
> only between base tape and rim?

After the seam is sewn shut, the tape is applied over the stitching with glue (mastik) at the factory. That ends up being the tire you buy. When you're ready to mount the tire, you apply a layer of glue to each surface, let it cure to become tacky, then apply another layer to each surface, then mount the tire.

Another solution is rim tape, double-sided adhesive that is used in place of the second glue application. Long ago this wasn't considered reliable, these days the technology has advanced such that it's the more common method. It's the way most CX racers I know (including me) mount tires on their CX rigs.

>
> I looked for a good illustration and didn't find one, if somebody
> has better luck please post a link!
>
> Thanks very much,
>
> bob prohaska

On 8/16/2023 11:20 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>> The base tape covers and thereby protects the stitching of the tire casing, and also serves as the surface you apply the cement to in order to mount the tire securely.
>>
>
> I'm having trouble visualizing the setup. The tire casing needs one
> seam to close it, leaving two flaps of fabric. Are those each sewn
> to the base tape? Is there glue between base tape and casing, or
> only between base tape and rim?
>
> I looked for a good illustration and didn't find one, if somebody
> has better luck please post a link!
>
> Thanks very much,
>
> bob prohaska
>

Tubulars are a bias-cut tubular strip of fabric sewn at the
rim side. The casing is coated with latex which is also
used to adhere the tread. Latex solution also adheres the
base tape. Some photos here:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/frontwheel.html
and here:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/tubfix.html

Nice drawings of cross section:
https://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=40539

Le Cycle had a very nice photo series of a visit to the
Dourdoigne factory in 1976 (?) but it seems to have escaped
the Inter Webs

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 5:49:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/16/2023 11:20 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
> > Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> The base tape covers and thereby protects the stitching of the tire casing, and also serves as the surface you apply the cement to in order to mount the tire securely.
> >>
> >
> > I'm having trouble visualizing the setup. The tire casing needs one
> > seam to close it, leaving two flaps of fabric. Are those each sewn
> > to the base tape? Is there glue between base tape and casing, or
> > only between base tape and rim?
> >
> > I looked for a good illustration and didn't find one, if somebody
> > has better luck please post a link!
> >
> > Thanks very much,
> >
> > bob prohaska
> >
> Tubulars are a bias-cut tubular strip of fabric sewn at the
> rim side. The casing is coated with latex which is also
> used to adhere the tread. Latex solution also adheres the
> base tape. Some photos here:
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/frontwheel.html
> and here:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/tubfix.html
>
> Nice drawings of cross section:
> https://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=40539
>
> Le Cycle had a very nice photo series of a visit to the
> Dourdoigne factory in 1976 (?) but it seems to have escaped
> the Inter Webs

You know, I never glued a tubular on like that but I must have. My tubular glue was black mastic sort of stuff. After installing the tubular you had to inflate the tire and let it sit overnight.

On 8/17/2023 8:33 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 5:49:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 8/16/2023 11:20 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The base tape covers and thereby protects the stitching of the tire casing, and also serves as the surface you apply the cement to in order to mount the tire securely.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm having trouble visualizing the setup. The tire casing needs one
>>> seam to close it, leaving two flaps of fabric. Are those each sewn
>>> to the base tape? Is there glue between base tape and casing, or
>>> only between base tape and rim?
>>>
>>> I looked for a good illustration and didn't find one, if somebody
>>> has better luck please post a link!
>>>
>>> Thanks very much,
>>>
>>> bob prohaska
>>>
>> Tubulars are a bias-cut tubular strip of fabric sewn at the
>> rim side. The casing is coated with latex which is also
>> used to adhere the tread. Latex solution also adheres the
>> base tape. Some photos here:
>>
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/frontwheel.html
>> and here:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/tubfix.html
>>
>> Nice drawings of cross section:
>> https://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=40539
>>
>> Le Cycle had a very nice photo series of a visit to the
>> Dourdoigne factory in 1976 (?) but it seems to have escaped
>> the Inter Webs
>
> You know, I never glued a tubular on like that but I must have. My tubular glue was black mastic sort of stuff. After installing the tubular you had to inflate the tire and let it sit overnight.

Hmmm I never say black tubular cement. White, red, brown,
amber but not black. Who made that?

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
> https://www.challengetires.com/technology
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuosST7TiZE
>
> Forget the fact that it is a circle and think of wrapping your
> handkerchief around a broomstick. Where the edges meet sew them
> together. You now have a tube. To protect your stitches glue a strip
> of fabric lengthwise along the tube to cover the stitches.

I've watched the video twice now, with limited comprehension 8-(

It seems like there are a total of five layers stiched together:
Two edges of two casing plies makes four, plus an intermediate
strip. It isn't clear to me if the intermediate strip is a loaded
member (resisting inflation pressure) or just a cover. Then one
more strip of fabric is added, with glue only, between casing and
rim mounting surface.

Thanks to everybody who has responded to my questions! I've been
trying for some time now to understand the chain of reasoning that
led to the invention of practical pneumatic tires. They've been
a world-changing development, likely on par with railroads. There
remain some weak links in the chain, but fewer now.

bob prohaska

On 8/17/2023 11:22 AM, bob prohaska wrote:
> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> https://www.challengetires.com/technology
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuosST7TiZE
>>
>> Forget the fact that it is a circle and think of wrapping your
>> handkerchief around a broomstick. Where the edges meet sew them
>> together. You now have a tube. To protect your stitches glue a strip
>> of fabric lengthwise along the tube to cover the stitches.
>
> I've watched the video twice now, with limited comprehension 8-(
>
> It seems like there are a total of five layers stiched together:
> Two edges of two casing plies makes four, plus an intermediate
> strip. It isn't clear to me if the intermediate strip is a loaded
> member (resisting inflation pressure) or just a cover. Then one
> more strip of fabric is added, with glue only, between casing and
> rim mounting surface.
>
> Thanks to everybody who has responded to my questions! I've been
> trying for some time now to understand the chain of reasoning that
> led to the invention of practical pneumatic tires. They've been
> a world-changing development, likely on par with railroads. There
> remain some weak links in the chain, but fewer now.
>
> bob prohaska
>
>
>
The original Dr Dunlop tubular was substantially like the
tires I rode this morning. His were wider and heavier but
same basic design.