On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
> > On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave
> > Platt) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
> >> Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>> https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ
> >>>
> >>> Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
> >>> How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?
> >>
> >> I don't believe that it could.
> >>
> >> My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow
> >> disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
> >> positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the
> >> output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high
> >> current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its
> >> resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance
> >> to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through
> >> the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which
> >> they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
> >> temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause
> >> them to limit the current.
> >>
> >> Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see
> >> the markings, I can't tell for sure.
> >
> > It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it
> > DOES flow through the capacitors
> >
> > see
> > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png
>
> Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.
>
> > Or it could be a TPS as described here:
> >
> > A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
> > divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it
> > down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it
> > is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum
> > voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.
> >
> > Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
> > Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the
> > top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the
> > input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference
> > is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few
> > tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.
> >
> > A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor,
> > with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever
> > the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25
> > milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R
> > = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 /
> > (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a
> > larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!
> >
> > A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety,
> > and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting
> > resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
> > resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from
> > holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
> > unplugged.
> >
> > see
> > https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/
>
> But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.

So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is more expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.

Don't forget to check my spelling.

--

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:19:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>> > On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave
>> > Platt) wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
>> >> Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >>> https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ
>> >>>
>> >>> Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
>> >>> How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?
>> >>
>> >> I don't believe that it could.
>> >>
>> >> My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow
>> >> disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
>> >> positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the
>> >> output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high
>> >> current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its
>> >> resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance
>> >> to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through
>> >> the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which
>> >> they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
>> >> temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause
>> >> them to limit the current.
>> >>
>> >> Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see
>> >> the markings, I can't tell for sure.
>> >
>> > It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it
>> > DOES flow through the capacitors
>> >
>> > see
>> > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit..png
>>
>> Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.
>>
>> > Or it could be a TPS as described here:
>> >
>> > A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
>> > divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it
>> > down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it
>> > is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum
>> > voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.
>> >
>> > Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
>> > Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the
>> > top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the
>> > input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference
>> > is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few
>> > tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.
>> >
>> > A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor,
>> > with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever
>> > the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25
>> > milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R
>> > = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 /
>> > (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a
>> > larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!
>> >
>> > A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety,
>> > and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting
>> > resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
>> > resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from
>> > holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
>> > unplugged.
>> >
>> > see
>> > https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/
>>
>> But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.
>
> So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is more expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.
>
> Don't forget to check my spelling.

I prefer cheap to safe.

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 2:05:50 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:19:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
> >> > On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave
> >> > Platt) wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
> >> >> Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> >>> https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
> >> >>> How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?
> >> >>
> >> >> I don't believe that it could.
> >> >>
> >> >> My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow
> >> >> disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
> >> >> positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the
> >> >> output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high
> >> >> current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its
> >> >> resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance
> >> >> to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through
> >> >> the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which
> >> >> they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
> >> >> temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause
> >> >> them to limit the current.
> >> >>
> >> >> Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see
> >> >> the markings, I can't tell for sure.
> >> >
> >> > It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it
> >> > DOES flow through the capacitors
> >> >
> >> > see
> >> > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png
> >>
> >> Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.
> >>
> >> > Or it could be a TPS as described here:
> >> >
> >> > A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
> >> > divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it
> >> > down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it
> >> > is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum
> >> > voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.
> >> >
> >> > Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
> >> > Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the
> >> > top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the
> >> > input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference
> >> > is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few
> >> > tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.
> >> >
> >> > A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor,
> >> > with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever
> >> > the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25
> >> > milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R
> >> > = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 /
> >> > (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a
> >> > larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!
> >> >
> >> > A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety,
> >> > and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting
> >> > resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
> >> > resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from
> >> > holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
> >> > unplugged.
> >> >
> >> > see
> >> > https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/
> >>
> >> But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.
> >
> > So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is more expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.
> >
> > Don't forget to check my spelling.
> I prefer cheap to safe.

Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.

--

Rick C.

--+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 2:05:50 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:19:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>> >> > On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave
>> >> > Platt) wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
>> >> >> Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
>> >> >>> How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I don't believe that it could.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow
>> >> >> disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
>> >> >> positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the
>> >> >> output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high
>> >> >> current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its
>> >> >> resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance
>> >> >> to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through
>> >> >> the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which
>> >> >> they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
>> >> >> temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause
>> >> >> them to limit the current.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see
>> >> >> the markings, I can't tell for sure.
>> >> >
>> >> > It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it
>> >> > DOES flow through the capacitors
>> >> >
>> >> > see
>> >> > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png
>> >>
>> >> Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.
>> >>
>> >> > Or it could be a TPS as described here:
>> >> >
>> >> > A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
>> >> > divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it
>> >> > down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it
>> >> > is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum
>> >> > voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.
>> >> >
>> >> > Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
>> >> > Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the
>> >> > top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the
>> >> > input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference
>> >> > is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few
>> >> > tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.
>> >> >
>> >> > A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor,
>> >> > with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever
>> >> > the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25
>> >> > milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R
>> >> > = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 /
>> >> > (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a
>> >> > larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!
>> >> >
>> >> > A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety,
>> >> > and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting
>> >> > resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
>> >> > resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from
>> >> > holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
>> >> > unplugged.
>> >> >
>> >> > see
>> >> > https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/
>> >>
>> >> But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.
>> >
>> > So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is more expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.
>> >
>> > Don't forget to check my spelling.
>> I prefer cheap to safe.
>
> Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.

Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 2:05:50 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:19:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
> >> >> > On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave
> >> >> > Platt) wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
> >> >> >> Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>> https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
> >> >> >>> How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I don't believe that it could.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow
> >> >> >> disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
> >> >> >> positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the
> >> >> >> output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high
> >> >> >> current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its
> >> >> >> resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance
> >> >> >> to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through
> >> >> >> the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which
> >> >> >> they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
> >> >> >> temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause
> >> >> >> them to limit the current.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see
> >> >> >> the markings, I can't tell for sure.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it
> >> >> > DOES flow through the capacitors
> >> >> >
> >> >> > see
> >> >> > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png
> >> >>
> >> >> Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Or it could be a TPS as described here:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
> >> >> > divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it
> >> >> > down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it
> >> >> > is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum
> >> >> > voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
> >> >> > Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the
> >> >> > top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the
> >> >> > input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference
> >> >> > is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few
> >> >> > tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor,
> >> >> > with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever
> >> >> > the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25
> >> >> > milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R
> >> >> > = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 /
> >> >> > (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a
> >> >> > larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety,
> >> >> > and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting
> >> >> > resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
> >> >> > resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from
> >> >> > holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
> >> >> > unplugged.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > see
> >> >> > https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/
> >> >>
> >> >> But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.
> >> >
> >> > So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is more expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.
> >> >
> >> > Don't forget to check my spelling.
> >> I prefer cheap to safe.
> >
> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current. The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety. A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos

--

Rick C.

--++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 2:05:50 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:19:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>> >> >> > On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave
>> >> >> > Platt) wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
>> >> >> >> Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>> https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
>> >> >> >>> How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I don't believe that it could.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow
>> >> >> >> disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
>> >> >> >> positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the
>> >> >> >> output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high
>> >> >> >> current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its
>> >> >> >> resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance
>> >> >> >> to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through
>> >> >> >> the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which
>> >> >> >> they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
>> >> >> >> temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause
>> >> >> >> them to limit the current.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see
>> >> >> >> the markings, I can't tell for sure.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it
>> >> >> > DOES flow through the capacitors
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > see
>> >> >> > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Or it could be a TPS as described here:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
>> >> >> > divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it
>> >> >> > down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it
>> >> >> > is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum
>> >> >> > voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
>> >> >> > Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the
>> >> >> > top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the
>> >> >> > input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference
>> >> >> > is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few
>> >> >> > tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor,
>> >> >> > with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever
>> >> >> > the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25
>> >> >> > milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R
>> >> >> > = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 /
>> >> >> > (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a
>> >> >> > larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety,
>> >> >> > and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting
>> >> >> > resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
>> >> >> > resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from
>> >> >> > holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
>> >> >> > unplugged.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > see
>> >> >> > https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.
>> >> >
>> >> > So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is more expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.
>> >> >
>> >> > Don't forget to check my spelling.
>> >> I prefer cheap to safe.
>> >
>> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>
> The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.

Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.

> The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.

I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.

> A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos

I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>
> The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
> waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
> consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
> current.

They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

--
Jasen.

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
> >
> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
> > waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
> > current.
> They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.
>
> a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

"A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out. The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb significantly less efficient. No one buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.

Being current limited is of no utility in this case. When that cheap capacitor in the cheap power supply fails, the output becomes high voltage frying devices and people. It only takes a few mA to stop the heart.

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 2:05:50 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:19:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
> >> >> >> > On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave
> >> >> >> > Platt) wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
> >> >> >> >> Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>> https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
> >> >> >> >>> How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I don't believe that it could.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow
> >> >> >> >> disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
> >> >> >> >> positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the
> >> >> >> >> output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high
> >> >> >> >> current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its
> >> >> >> >> resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance
> >> >> >> >> to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through
> >> >> >> >> the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which
> >> >> >> >> they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
> >> >> >> >> temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause
> >> >> >> >> them to limit the current.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see
> >> >> >> >> the markings, I can't tell for sure.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it
> >> >> >> > DOES flow through the capacitors
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > see
> >> >> >> > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Or it could be a TPS as described here:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
> >> >> >> > divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it
> >> >> >> > down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it
> >> >> >> > is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum
> >> >> >> > voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
> >> >> >> > Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the
> >> >> >> > top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the
> >> >> >> > input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference
> >> >> >> > is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few
> >> >> >> > tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor,
> >> >> >> > with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever
> >> >> >> > the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25
> >> >> >> > milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R
> >> >> >> > = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 /
> >> >> >> > (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a
> >> >> >> > larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety,
> >> >> >> > and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting
> >> >> >> > resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
> >> >> >> > resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from
> >> >> >> > holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
> >> >> >> > unplugged.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > see
> >> >> >> > https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is more expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Don't forget to check my spelling.
> >> >> I prefer cheap to safe.
> >> >
> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
> >
> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
> Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
> > The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
> I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
> > A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
> I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
> Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

Yeah, sure. Enjoy.

--

Rick C.

-+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 2/17/2022 8:50 AM, Rick C wrote:
> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
>> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>>>> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>>>
>>> The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
>>> waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
>>> consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
>>> current.
>> They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.
>>
>> a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.
>
> "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out. The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb significantly less efficient. No one buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.
>
> Being current limited is of no utility in this case. When that cheap capacitor in the cheap power supply fails, the output becomes high voltage frying devices and people. It only takes a few mA to stop the heart.
>

....as in Do you want your fibrillation at 50 or 60 Hz?

On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>> >
>> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
>> Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
>> > The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
>> I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
>> > A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.
>> >
>> > https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
>> I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
>> Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.
>
> Yeah, sure. Enjoy.

I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:50:05 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
>> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>> >
>> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
>> > waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
>> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
>> > current.
>> They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.
>>
>> a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.
>
> "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out. The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb significantly less efficient. No one buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.
>
> Being current limited is of no utility in this case.

That's what LEDs need, duh.

> When that cheap capacitor in the cheap power supply fails, the output becomes high voltage frying devices and people.

They usually fail open circuit actually.

> It only takes a few mA to stop the heart.

Actually it's 80mA. And assuming you have the nancy boy circuit breakers, they stop it at 30-50mA.

On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
>> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>> >
>> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
>> > waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
>> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
>> > current.
>> They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.
>>
>> a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.
>
> "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.

Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.

> The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
> more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
> significantly less efficient.

So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.
where are you getting 20% ?

> No one buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.

Noone wants one that runs smoking hot. Everyone wants an efficient phone charger.

> Being current limited is of no utility in this case. When that cheap capacitor in the cheap power supply fails, the output becomes high voltage frying devices and people. It only takes a few mA to stop the heart.

What are you on about now?

--
Jasen.

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
> >> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
> >> >
> >> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
> >> Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one..
> >> > The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
> >> I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
> >> > A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.
> >> >
> >> > https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
> >> I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
> >> Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.
> >
> > Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
> I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the feet, you may end up a dead duck. What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?

You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?

--

Rick C.

-++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:31:04 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
> >> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
> >> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
> >> >
> >> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
> >> > waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
> >> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
> >> > current.
> >> They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.
> >>
> >> a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.
> >
> > "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.
> Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.

15W phone chargers are high end and typically cost a lot more and are built well. The cheap phone chargers are the ones that have the capacitive dropper design.

> > The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
> > more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
> > significantly less efficient.
> So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.
> where are you getting 20% ?

The resistors added to a capacitive dropper.

> > No one buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.
> Noone wants one that runs smoking hot. Everyone wants an efficient phone charger.

Lol. So how do you check that? Light bulbs have specific labeling on the package to tell you how many watts it uses and how many lumens it produces. Granted, many don't have a clue as to how to use those numbers, but for those who do they are there. The best you will find on a cell phone charger is the amps drawn from the power line which is always inflated in my experience. I guess that's a safety thing? Dunno, but it is worthless for calculating efficiency.

> > Being current limited is of no utility in this case. When that cheap capacitor in the cheap power supply fails, the output becomes high voltage frying devices and people. It only takes a few mA to stop the heart.
> What are you on about now?

Nothing you need to worry about. Go back to sleep.

--

Rick C.

-+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail..com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>> >> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>> >> >
>> >> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
>> >> Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
>> >> > The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
>> >> I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
>> >> > A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.
>> >> >
>> >> > https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
>> >> I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
>> >> Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.
>> >
>> > Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
>> I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.
>
> Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the feet, you may end up a dead duck.

I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.

> What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?
>
> You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?

You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:13:35 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
>>> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>>> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>>> >
>>> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
>>> > waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
>>> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
>>> > current.
>>> They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.
>>>
>>> a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.
>>
>> "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.
>
> Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.

A phone battery is 4V. 15 W would be charging it at 4A, you'd get an explosion.

>> The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
>> more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
>> significantly less efficient.
>
> So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.

It doesn't save money. I bought Cree (shittest company ever) bulbs, they lasted 1 month due to getting so fucking hot they couldn't be touched comfortably for even half a second. I sent them back 5 times, costing them a fortune.

> where are you getting 20% ?
>
>> No one buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.
>
> Noone wants one that runs smoking hot. Everyone wants an efficient phone charger.
>
>> Being current limited is of no utility in this case. When that cheap capacitor in the cheap power supply fails, the output becomes high voltage frying devices and people. It only takes a few mA to stop the heart..
>
> What are you on about now?

He appears to be a little girl afraid of electricity.

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:27:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:31:04 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
>> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
>> >> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>> >> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>> >> >
>> >> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
>> >> > waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
>> >> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
>> >> > current.
>> >> They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.
>> >>
>> >> a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.
>> >
>> > "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.
>> Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.
>
> 15W phone chargers are high end and typically cost a lot more and are built well. The cheap phone chargers are the ones that have the capacitive dropper design.
>
>> > The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
>> > more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
>> > significantly less efficient.
>> So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.
>> where are you getting 20% ?
>
> The resistors added to a capacitive dropper.

Then the resistor is too big. The capacitor should be doing all the work. I have a 15W LED bulb that's lasted or years, the resistor only outputs 1 watt.

>> > No one buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.
>> Noone wants one that runs smoking hot. Everyone wants an efficient phone charger.
>
> Lol. So how do you check that? Light bulbs have specific labeling on the package to tell you how many watts it uses and how many lumens it produces. Granted, many don't have a clue as to how to use those numbers, but for those who do they are there.

LED bulbs are pretty much all the same efficiency.

> The best you will find on a cell phone charger is the amps drawn from the power line which is always inflated in my experience. I guess that's a safety thing? Dunno, but it is worthless for calculating efficiency..

How can that possibly be a safety thing?

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
> >> >> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
> >> >> Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
> >> >> > The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
> >> >> I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
> >> >> > A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well.. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
> >> >> I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
> >> >> Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.
> >> >
> >> > Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
> >> I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.
> >
> > Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the feet, you may end up a dead duck.
> I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.
> > What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?
> >
> > You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
> You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.

Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice, you don't understand the difference between a "breaker" and a GFCI. A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit with both hands, one on each conductor.

Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.

--

Rick C.

+--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 2022-02-18, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:13:35 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
>>>> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>>>> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>>>> >
>>>> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
>>>> > waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
>>>> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
>>>> > current.
>>>> They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.
>>>>
>>>> a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.
>>>
>>> "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.
>>
>> Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.
>
> A phone battery is 4V. 15 W would be charging it at 4A, you'd get an explosion.

the phone "charger" label says 15W but when I measured it was closer to 13w, I guess
that's why it hasn't exploded yet.

>>> The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
>>> more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
>>> significantly less efficient.
>>
>> So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.
>
> It doesn't save money. I bought Cree (shittest company ever) bulbs, they lasted 1 month due to getting so fucking hot they couldn't be touched comfortably for even half a second. I sent them back 5 times, costing them a fortune.

Saves the manufacturer money. they can achieve brihtness while using
less material, also they can sell more if they don't last too long.

--
Jasen.

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:56:41 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail..com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>> >> >> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
>> >> >> Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
>> >> >> > The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
>> >> >> I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
>> >> >> > A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
>> >> >> I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
>> >> >> Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
>> >> I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.
>> >
>> > Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the feet, you may end up a dead duck.
>> I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.
>> > What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?
>> >
>> > You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
>> You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.
>
> Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice,

Safety advice is for the weak and frail scaredycats.

> you don't understand the difference between a "breaker" and a GFCI.

They tend to go together, you either have them both in the box, or they're part of the same unit.

> A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit with both hands, one on each conductor.

That is very unlikely to happen, although I've done it and I'm still here.

> Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.

They also shriek at the slightest pain.

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:08:31 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

> On 2022-02-18, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:13:35 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip..org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>>>>> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
>>>>> > waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
>>>>> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
>>>>> > current.
>>>>> They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.
>>>>>
>>>>> a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.
>>>>
>>>> "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.
>>>
>>> Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.
>>
>> A phone battery is 4V. 15 W would be charging it at 4A, you'd get an explosion.
>
> the phone "charger" label says 15W but when I measured it was closer to 13w, I guess
> that's why it hasn't exploded yet.

Even my high spec 18650 cells recommend charging at 1.5A. And those aren't enclosed in a phone.

>>>> The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
>>>> more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
>>>> significantly less efficient.
>>>
>>> So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.
>>
>> It doesn't save money. I bought Cree (shittest company ever) bulbs, they lasted 1 month due to getting so fucking hot they couldn't be touched comfortably for even half a second. I sent them back 5 times, costing them a fortune.
>
> Saves the manufacturer money. they can achieve brihtness while using
> less material, also they can sell more if they don't last too long.

They won't sell more. They either get them returned costing them money, or the customer never uses that brand again.

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:48:58 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:56:41 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
> >> >> >> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
> >> >> >> Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
> >> >> >> > The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
> >> >> >> I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
> >> >> >> > A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
> >> >> >> I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
> >> >> >> Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
> >> >> I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.
> >> >
> >> > Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the feet, you may end up a dead duck.
> >> I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.
> >> > What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?
> >> >
> >> > You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
> >> You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.
> >
> > Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice,
> Safety advice is for the weak and frail scaredycats.
> > you don't understand the difference between a "breaker" and a GFCI.
> They tend to go together, you either have them both in the box, or they're part of the same unit.

Complete rubbish. I have several houses, all with GFCI and none have it in the circuit breaker panels. GFCI outlets can protect the entire string of outlets.

https://www.google.com/search?q=GFCI+outlets

> > A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit with both hands, one on each conductor.
> That is very unlikely to happen, although I've done it and I'm still here..

Unfortunately...

> > Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.
> They also shriek at the slightest pain.

Certainly they shriek at an attempt to communicate with you.

I'm done here. It is seldom that even in s.e.d anyone appears to be as willfully ignorant as you.

--

Rick C.

+--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:12:36 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:48:58 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:56:41 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail..com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>> >> >> >> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
>> >> >> >> Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper.. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
>> >> >> >> > The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
>> >> >> >> I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
>> >> >> >> > A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
>> >> >> >> I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
>> >> >> >> Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
>> >> >> I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.
>> >> >
>> >> > Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the feet, you may end up a dead duck.
>> >> I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.
>> >> > What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?
>> >> >
>> >> > You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
>> >> You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.
>> >
>> > Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice,
>> Safety advice is for the weak and frail scaredycats.
>> > you don't understand the difference between a "breaker" and a GFCI.
>> They tend to go together, you either have them both in the box, or they're part of the same unit.
>
> Complete rubbish. I have several houses, all with GFCI and none have it in the circuit breaker panels. GFCI outlets can protect the entire string of outlets.
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=GFCI+outlets

Just because you're too stupid to install it in the fusebox doesn't mean they don't exist. The entire UK has one of these (apart from houses like mine which have fuses):
https://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00ZJIQhmgWwwoj/2p-25A-30mA-Hyundai-RCCB-Residual-Current-Circuit-Breaker-ELCB.jpg
Protects against overcurrent and earth leakage.

Perhaps the USA is behind the times, perhaps you don't realise there are countries, better countries, outside of yours.

>> > A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit with both hands, one on each conductor.
>> That is very unlikely to happen, although I've done it and I'm still here.
>
> Unfortunately...

It proves it's not dangerous.

>> > Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.
>> They also shriek at the slightest pain.
>
> Certainly they shriek at an attempt to communicate with you.

They shriek at everything.

> I'm done here. It is seldom that even in s.e.d anyone appears to be as willfully ignorant as you.

Then why the fuck did you reply? That's utterly childish, replying THEN killfiling me. No doubt you've got one of those shit killfiles that doesn't block responses to me, so you'll read this when someone else replies.

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 21:54:44 -0000, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:12:36 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail..com> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:48:58 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:56:41 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> >> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> >> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> >> >> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> > Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
>>> >> >> >> >> Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
>>> >> >> >> Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
>>> >> >> >> > The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
>>> >> >> >> I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
>>> >> >> >> > A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
>>> >> >> >> I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
>>> >> >> >> Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
>>> >> >> I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the feet, you may end up a dead duck.
>>> >> I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.
>>> >> > What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
>>> >> You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.
>>> >
>>> > Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice,
>>> Safety advice is for the weak and frail scaredycats.
>>> > you don't understand the difference between a "breaker" and a GFCI..
>>> They tend to go together, you either have them both in the box, or they're part of the same unit.
>>
>> Complete rubbish. I have several houses, all with GFCI and none have it in the circuit breaker panels. GFCI outlets can protect the entire string of outlets.
>>
>> https://www.google.com/search?q=GFCI+outlets
>
> Just because you're too stupid to install it in the fusebox doesn't mean they don't exist. The entire UK has one of these (apart from houses like mine which have fuses):
> https://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00ZJIQhmgWwwoj/2p-25A-30mA-Hyundai-RCCB-Residual-Current-Circuit-Breaker-ELCB.jpg
> Protects against overcurrent and earth leakage.
>
> Perhaps the USA is behind the times, perhaps you don't realise there are countries, better countries, outside of yours.
>
>>> > A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit with both hands, one on each conductor.
>>> That is very unlikely to happen, although I've done it and I'm still here.
>>
>> Unfortunately...
>
> It proves it's not dangerous.
>
>>> > Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.
>>> They also shriek at the slightest pain.
>>
>> Certainly they shriek at an attempt to communicate with you.
>
> They shriek at everything.
>
>> I'm done here. It is seldom that even in s.e.d anyone appears to be as willfully ignorant as you.
>
> Then why the fuck did you reply? That's utterly childish, replying THEN killfiling me. No doubt you've got one of those shit killfiles that doesn't block responses to me, so you'll read this when someone else replies.

Like me.