[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
"moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
> an upright "handlebar"...]
>
> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
>
> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
>
> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
> "moved without rent").
>
> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
>
> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
> distributed area.
>
> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
>
> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
> at their *intended* destination (?).
>
> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
>
> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the battery

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed
The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can't use common sense

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in
news:sv3nns$fvc$1@dont-email.me:

> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
> skateboard with an upright "handlebar"...]

Nope. Some groups / folks refer to them as "metro scooters".

A real 'scooter'(like the ones they've had in Italy for decades),
however, is like a moped, but with no pedals and usually has a body
crafted around it. 12" and up for the wheel diameters.
> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Rich kids with a card mom or dad gave them running around cities
having fun. Probably pot couriers.
> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

There are actual mopeds here as well that "more mature" folks use,
but yeah they all have trackers in them that may go dormant as long
as it gets left at the right drop off points, which is likely because
you want the hourly rate charge to stop as soon as you are done with
it. So the 'missing' ones are rare because the last user is the
first suspect or payee as it were.
> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
> prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report its
> location WHILE it is being "moved without rent").

You rent it, it activates it's timer. You MUST return it to a
proper drop off point for it to communicate with the server and end
your rental session.

>
> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each
> rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up,
> periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that
> responsibility).

The full size bikes get left at automatic charging stations.
The little kid scooter things vary from brand to brand and city to
city. If there is no charging station, the drop off point sends
battery condition info as well, and yes, they get rounded up like
cattle that don't run away.

> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
> distributed area.

The vans I saw, the guy was dragging newly charged bikes off, and
loading ded bikes on. Big bikes too. Big friggin vans out there
nowadays. Gas slurpers, I'm sure.

> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

The van probably burns up all that was saved.

> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before
> arriving at their *intended* destination (?).

Some have a shop they cycle them through. Take 20 out, and pick
twenty up.
>
> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
>
> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

The real litter problem in the USA is really assholes and their
discarded cigarette butts. But now, the bigger problem is discarded
masks.

But these little 2 wheel guys are ok. A regular part of many cities
now. Don't get yer bloomers in a bunch. :-)

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
>> an upright "handlebar"...]
>>
>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
>>
>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
>> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
>>
>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
>> "moved without rent").
>>
>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
>>
>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
>> distributed area.
>>
>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
>> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
>>
>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
>> at their *intended* destination (?).
>>
>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
>>
>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
>
> here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

> I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
> they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to
imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

> There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled via the GPS)
> where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent you from
> driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

> The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
> that can't use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one
of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped
a photo of it "parked properly"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
> On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>> tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
>>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
>>> an upright "handlebar"...]
>>>
>>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
>>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
>>>
>>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
>>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
>>> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
>>>
>>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
>>> "moved without rent").
>>>
>>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
>>>
>>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
>>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
>>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
>>> distributed area.
>>>
>>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
>>> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
>>>
>>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
>>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
>>> at their *intended* destination (?).
>>>
>>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
>>>
>>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
>>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
>>
>> here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute
>
> They are $1 to start and 29c per minute.  "Underprivileged"
> users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)
>
>> I believe here they changed to a  model with replaceable battery so
>> they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
>> battery
>
> Ah, that would make sense.  OTOH, it means the battery must be
> easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
> ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).
>
> Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
> to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service".  Hard to
> imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.
>
>> There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled
>> via the GPS)
>> where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent
>> you from
>> driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed
>
> I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
> The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
> of your (public transportation) trip.  If you're headed *to* a
> storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
> (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
> your business, there).
>
> OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
> come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?
>
> [Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
> assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]
>
>> The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
>> that can't use common sense
>
> There are two providers, in town.  Only one has the photo requirement.
> (and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one
> of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)
>
> Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped
> a photo of it "parked properly"?
>
> [Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
> toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations.  E.g., at store A and,
> again, at store B -- a score of yards away.
>
> Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.
>
> [I wonder who the targeted ridership might be.  The "college kids"
> already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
> We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
> live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
> minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]

My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others. Typical customers
are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

Apparently the GPS also geofences where they can't be taken
and where they have to be speed limited (15mph on roads,
less in shopping areas). Illegal ones - all bets are off,
of course.

They are dropped off anywhere and everywhere, and in
some places there are so many that they obstruct the
pavement (i.e. where pedestrians walk).

I wonder what happens when you take one home, somebody
else uses it next day, and you can't find one near you.
(I believe the app shows you a map of where the one
you are going to rent is located).

There are occasional newspaper articles about users
being banned. The last one I saw was a dashcam showing
two people on the scooter. That's not uncommon,
but illegal.

The surprising point in that case is that they
identified the perp; the identification codes are
too small to be seen on the dashcam or by eye
when moving.

I have occasionally moved them with extreme prejudice,
to enable my mother's disabled buggy to pass.

Another failure mechanism is:
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2022/02/stealing-bicycles-by-swapping-qr-codes.html

On 2/23/2022 1:52 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
>> On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
>>>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
>>>> an upright "handlebar"...]
>>>>
>>>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
>>>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
>>>>
>>>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
>>>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
>>>> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
>>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
>>>> "moved without rent").
>>>>
>>>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
>>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
>>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
>>>>
>>>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
>>>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
>>>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
>>>> distributed area.
>>>>
>>>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
>>>> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
>>>>
>>>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
>>>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
>>>> at their *intended* destination (?).
>>>>
>>>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
>>>>
>>>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
>>>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
>>>
>>> here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute
>>
>> They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
>> users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)
>>
>>> I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
>>> they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
>>> battery
>>
>> Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
>> easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
>> ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).
>>
>> Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
>> to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to
>> imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.
>>
>>> There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places
>>> (controlled via the GPS)
>>> where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also
>>> prevent you from
>>> driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed
>>
>> I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
>> The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
>> of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
>> storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
>> (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
>> your business, there).
>>
>> OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
>> come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?
>>
>> [Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
>> assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]
>>
>>> The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban
>>> people
>>> that can't use common sense
>>
>> There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
>> (and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one
>> of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)
>>
>> Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped
>> a photo of it "parked properly"?
>>
>> [Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
>> toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
>> again, at store B -- a score of yards away.
>>
>> Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.
>>
>> [I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
>> already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
>> We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
>> live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
>> minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]
>
> My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
> rental scooters and the illegal others.

[I was more concerned with the business model that would "justify"
that sort of risk/overhead.]

There are (were?) two providers authorized to make these available
"for pay", in town. There are no (?) limitations on other "owned"
units being used (though they are not allowed on sidewalks).

ICE-powered "skateboards" were common, some years back. The noise
from their tiny "chainsaw" engines (30cc?) was universally considered
annoying -- so much so that they were banned, in town.

There are some similarly powered "bicycle adapters" that seem to have
skirted any restrictions, though.

And, IIRC, anything less than ~50cc can be operated without a license
on roadways -- unless it is a "moped" (moped > motorized bicycle in
terms of BHP and max speed) which must be licensed/registered/insured.

[We have mopeds (ANY license/registered/insured/roadways), motorized/electric
bicycle (no license, registration or insurance, roadways and bike paths),
scooters (motorcycle license, registered, insured, roadways) and eScooters
(same as motorized/electric bicycle). The differences in classifications
are related to BHP, max speed, engine displacement/power, number of wheels,
pedals/not, etc.]

You'll see Segways (different models, ninebots being most common as they are
considerably cheaper; think: youngsters), one-wheeled skateboards (inverted
pendulum control), the "scooters" I described in this topic, motorized
bicycles, etc. Plus "real" vehicles (motorcycles, trikes -- front and rear,
cars/trucks/etc) and all sorts of bicycles (recumbent, racing, etc.)

> Typical customers
> are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
> else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

I've not seen any "adults" riding the two-wheeled devices
described, here. So, question the city's emphasis on
making them available for underprivileged population
(only poor *kids* but not their parents??)

> They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
> a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
> enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
> they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
> lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

They don't require any licensing or insurance (for the operator).
No idea if the "provider" carries a blanket policy, though.

I would imagine an accident with a motor vehicle would treat
them as pedestrians or bike-riders. One-wheeled devices and
hoverboards are explicitly considered "pedestrians".

> Apparently the GPS also geofences where they can't be taken
> and where they have to be speed limited (15mph on roads,
> less in shopping areas). Illegal ones - all bets are off,
> of course.

An "escooter" is limited to having a maximum speed of 25MPH
if less than 75 pounds; under 30 pounds it is classified as
a "mini scooter" if limited to 10 MPH.

Given that the speed limit is 25MPH on residential roads
(barring "school zones" when children are likely to be
transiting to/fro), there's no real problem. Mopeds
tend to be underpowered and only a fool would consider
operating them on city streets (speed limit being 45
on most -- which means 55+ in practice!)

[Any vehicle smaller than a decent sized car represents
a significant risk, here. Lots of oversized trucks,
SUVs, etc. and a fair number of motorcycle and pedestrian
accidents.]

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in
news:sv4q8b$g79$1@dont-email.me:

>
>> I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery
>> so they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just
>> replace the battery
>
> Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
> easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
> ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent
> rental).
>

This is likely not true. Otherwise kids would be stealing the
batteries, just like the copper wire days.

They are sealed in and get recharged on the scoot. I see vans of
folks gathering them up (the whole scooter)and putting out freshly
charged units all the time.

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 17.55.08 UTC+1 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
> Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in
> news:sv4q8b$g79$1...@dont-email.me:
> >
> >> I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery
> >> so they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just
> >> replace the battery
> >
> > Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
> > easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
> > ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent
> > rental).
> >
> This is likely not true. Otherwise kids would be stealing the
> batteries, just like the copper wire days.

there's obviously a lock on it ..

> They are sealed in and get recharged on the scoot. I see vans of
> folks gathering them up (the whole scooter)and putting out freshly
> charged units all the time.

https://www.voiscooters.com/blog/voi-receives-formal-dft-approval-on-its-e-scooters/

"50% reduction in service emissions, thanks to a drastic reduction in trips necessary
for charging and maintaining scooters when batteries can be swapped on site"

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
> On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
> > On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >> tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
> >>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
> >>> an upright "handlebar"...]
> >>>
> >>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
> >>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
> >>>
> >>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
> >>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
> >>> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
> >>>
> >>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
> >>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
> >>> "moved without rent").
> >>>
> >>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
> >>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
> >>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
> >>>
> >>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
> >>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
> >>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
> >>> distributed area.
> >>>
> >>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
> >>> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
> >>>
> >>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
> >>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
> >>> at their *intended* destination (?).
> >>>
> >>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
> >>>
> >>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
> >>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
> >>
> >> here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute
> >
> > They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
> > users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)
> >
> >> I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
> >> they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
> >> battery
> >
> > Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
> > easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
> > ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).
> >
> > Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
> > to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to
> > imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.
> >
> >> There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled
> >> via the GPS)
> >> where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent
> >> you from
> >> driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed
> >
> > I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
> > The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
> > of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
> > storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
> > (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
> > your business, there).
> >
> > OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
> > come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?
> >
> > [Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
> > assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]
> >
> >> The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
> >> that can't use common sense
> >
> > There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
> > (and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one
> > of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)
> >
> > Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped
> > a photo of it "parked properly"?
> >
> > [Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
> > toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
> > again, at store B -- a score of yards away.
> >
> > Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.
> >
> > [I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
> > already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
> > We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
> > live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
> > minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]
> My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
> rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

>Typical customers are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
> else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.
>
> They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
> a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
> enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
> they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
> lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
>> On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>> tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
>>>>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
>>>>> an upright "handlebar"...]
>>>>>
>>>>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
>>>>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
>>>>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
>>>>> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
>>>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
>>>>> "moved without rent").
>>>>>
>>>>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
>>>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
>>>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
>>>>>
>>>>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
>>>>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
>>>>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
>>>>> distributed area.
>>>>>
>>>>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
>>>>> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
>>>>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
>>>>> at their *intended* destination (?).
>>>>>
>>>>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
>>>>>
>>>>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
>>>>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
>>>>
>>>> here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute
>>>
>>> They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
>>> users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)
>>>
>>>> I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
>>>> they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
>>>> battery
>>>
>>> Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
>>> easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
>>> ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).
>>>
>>> Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
>>> to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to
>>> imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.
>>>
>>>> There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled
>>>> via the GPS)
>>>> where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent
>>>> you from
>>>> driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed
>>>
>>> I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
>>> The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
>>> of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
>>> storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
>>> (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
>>> your business, there).
>>>
>>> OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
>>> come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?
>>>
>>> [Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
>>> assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]
>>>
>>>> The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
>>>> that can't use common sense
>>>
>>> There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
>>> (and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one
>>> of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)
>>>
>>> Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped
>>> a photo of it "parked properly"?
>>>
>>> [Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
>>> toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
>>> again, at store B -- a score of yards away.
>>>
>>> Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.
>>>
>>> [I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
>>> already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
>>> We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
>>> live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
>>> minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]
>> My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
>> rental scooters and the illegal others.
>
> illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!

>> Typical customers are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
>> else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.
>>
>> They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
>> a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
>> enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
>> they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
>> lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)
>
> how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:sv68j3$vem$3@dont-email.me:

> On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>> onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
>>> On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>>> tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
>>>>>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
>>>>>> skateboard with an upright "handlebar"...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever
>>>>>> the previous "renter" lost interest in continued use
>>>>>> (rental).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each
>>>>>> that lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing
>>>>>> info") as well as where it presently resides, battery state,
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
>>>>>> prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report its
>>>>>> location WHILE it is being "moved without rent").
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever
>>>>>> each rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them
>>>>>> up, periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters assume
>>>>>> that responsibility).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits,
>>>>>> here, encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san
>>>>>> francisco or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago)
>>>>>> over a widely distributed area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of
>>>>>> "typical" charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could
>>>>>> support "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged
>>>>>> before arriving at their *intended* destination (?).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this
>>>>>> "litter".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
>>>>>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
>>>>>
>>>>> here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute
>>>>
>>>> They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
>>>> users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)
>>>>
>>>>> I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable
>>>>> battery so they don't have to bring them home for charging,
>>>>> they can just replace the battery
>>>>
>>>> Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
>>>> easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
>>>> ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent
>>>> rental).
>>>>
>>>> Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet
>>>> (?) of trucks to canvas the city to collect/service scooters
>>>> for "service". Hard to imagine enough "sales" to cover
>>>> expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.
>>>>
>>>>> There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's
>>>>> places (controlled via the GPS)
>>>>> where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip
>>>>> there. Also prevent you from
>>>>> driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the
>>>> service. The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as
>>>> the "last leg" of your (public transportation) trip. If you're
>>>> headed *to* a storefront, then the drop-off could well be at
>>>> that storefront (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the
>>>> device after finishing your business, there).
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be
>>>> to come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?
>>>>
>>>> [Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
>>>> assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]
>>>>
>>>>> The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so
>>>>> they can ban people that can't use common sense
>>>>
>>>> There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo
>>>> requirement. (and, the service has to be usable by folks
>>>> without "smart phones" -- one of the conditions the city put in
>>>> place before allowing their deployment)
>>>>
>>>> Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after
>>>> you've snapped a photo of it "parked properly"?
>>>>
>>>> [Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked
>>>> upright, toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at
>>>> store A and, again, at store B -- a score of yards away.
>>>>
>>>> Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.
>>>>
>>>> [I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college
>>>> kids" already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from
>>>> the bars... We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so
>>>> unlikely they would live here or choose to visit/shop in this
>>>> part of town (it's a 20 minute drive at 45MPH city traffic
>>>> speeds just to get to the campus)]
>>> My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
>>> rental scooters and the illegal others.
>>
>> illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?
>
> Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
> and limited speed.
>
> Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
> private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
> how well that is enforced!
>
>
>>> Typical customers are students (city centre traditional
>>> campus), and anybody else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.
>>>
>>> They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
>>> a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
>>> enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
>>> they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
>>> lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)
>>
>> how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?
>
> From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
> is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
> from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
> result.
>
> They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
> made without consideration nor understanding - and then
> operated without caution where they can harm other people.
>

Back in the seventies I applied for and received my FCC CB radio
operators's license.

When I bought my first drone the first thing I did was get on the
FAA website and register and license it.

I currently ride a scooter whenever the weather is above freezing
and not raining. It will do like 70 MPH but there is no tags no
license, no insurance as I will not be hitting anyone. I just go
where I need to go and if I were ever hassled about it, I would swear
that it is only 50cc. Har har. I never climb up anybody's ass and
most folks do not bother me about it when they are behind me.
Drive safely and at the speed limit and a cop watching cars come down
the road goes on about finding the loony ones, not the nice and easy
ones.

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.22.53 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
> On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
> >> On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
> >>> On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >>>> tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
> >>>>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
> >>>>> an upright "handlebar"...]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
> >>>>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
> >>>>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
> >>>>> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
> >>>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
> >>>>> "moved without rent").
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
> >>>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
> >>>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
> >>>>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
> >>>>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
> >>>>> distributed area.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
> >>>>> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
> >>>>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
> >>>>> at their *intended* destination (?).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
> >>>>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
> >>>>
> >>>> here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute
> >>>
> >>> They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
> >>> users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)
> >>>
> >>>> I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
> >>>> they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
> >>>> battery
> >>>
> >>> Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
> >>> easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
> >>> ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).
> >>>
> >>> Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
> >>> to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to
> >>> imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.
> >>>
> >>>> There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled
> >>>> via the GPS)
> >>>> where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent
> >>>> you from
> >>>> driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed
> >>>
> >>> I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
> >>> The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
> >>> of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
> >>> storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
> >>> (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
> >>> your business, there).
> >>>
> >>> OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
> >>> come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?
> >>>
> >>> [Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
> >>> assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]
> >>>
> >>>> The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
> >>>> that can't use common sense
> >>>
> >>> There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
> >>> (and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one
> >>> of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)
> >>>
> >>> Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped
> >>> a photo of it "parked properly"?
> >>>
> >>> [Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
> >>> toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
> >>> again, at store B -- a score of yards away.
> >>>
> >>> Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.
> >>>
> >>> [I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
> >>> already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
> >>> We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
> >>> live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
> >>> minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]
> >> My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
> >> rental scooters and the illegal others.
> >
> > illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?
> Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
> and limited speed.

nonsense, you can literally buy exactly the same as used by Voi or
numerous others type approved to exactly the same regulations
and limited to to the same 20km/h

you can of course also buy some that are much faster and not type approved
for use on public roads, but that is no different that offroad/racing cars or bikes
> Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
> private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
> how well that is enforced!

you could also illegally drive an offroad motorcycle or race car on the street, that doesn't
mean all bike or cars on the road are illegal

> >> Typical customers are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
> >> else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.
> >>
> >> They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
> >> a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
> >> enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
> >> they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
> >> lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)
> >
> > how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?
> From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
> is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
> from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
> result.
>
> They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
> made without consideration nor understanding - and then
> operated without caution where they can harm other people.

they are a convenient compact alternative to a bicycle and
the rules for using them similar

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.58.29 UTC+1 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
> Tom Gardner <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
> news:sv68j3$vem$3...@dont-email.me:
> > On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >> onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
> >>> On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
> >>>> On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >>>>> tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
> >>>>>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
> >>>>>> skateboard with an upright "handlebar"...]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever
> >>>>>> the previous "renter" lost interest in continued use
> >>>>>> (rental).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each
> >>>>>> that lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing
> >>>>>> info") as well as where it presently resides, battery state,
> >>>>>> etc.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
> >>>>>> prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report its
> >>>>>> location WHILE it is being "moved without rent").
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever
> >>>>>> each rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them
> >>>>>> up, periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters assume
> >>>>>> that responsibility).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits,
> >>>>>> here, encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san
> >>>>>> francisco or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago)
> >>>>>> over a widely distributed area.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of
> >>>>>> "typical" charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could
> >>>>>> support "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged
> >>>>>> before arriving at their *intended* destination (?).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this
> >>>>>> "litter".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
> >>>>>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute
> >>>>
> >>>> They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
> >>>> users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)
> >>>>
> >>>>> I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable
> >>>>> battery so they don't have to bring them home for charging,
> >>>>> they can just replace the battery
> >>>>
> >>>> Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
> >>>> easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
> >>>> ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent
> >>>> rental).
> >>>>
> >>>> Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet
> >>>> (?) of trucks to canvas the city to collect/service scooters
> >>>> for "service". Hard to imagine enough "sales" to cover
> >>>> expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.
> >>>>
> >>>>> There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's
> >>>>> places (controlled via the GPS)
> >>>>> where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip
> >>>>> there. Also prevent you from
> >>>>> driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the
> >>>> service. The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as
> >>>> the "last leg" of your (public transportation) trip. If you're
> >>>> headed *to* a storefront, then the drop-off could well be at
> >>>> that storefront (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the
> >>>> device after finishing your business, there).
> >>>>
> >>>> OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be
> >>>> to come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?
> >>>>
> >>>> [Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
> >>>> assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]
> >>>>
> >>>>> The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so
> >>>>> they can ban people that can't use common sense
> >>>>
> >>>> There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo
> >>>> requirement. (and, the service has to be usable by folks
> >>>> without "smart phones" -- one of the conditions the city put in
> >>>> place before allowing their deployment)
> >>>>
> >>>> Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after
> >>>> you've snapped a photo of it "parked properly"?
> >>>>
> >>>> [Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked
> >>>> upright, toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at
> >>>> store A and, again, at store B -- a score of yards away.
> >>>>
> >>>> Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.
> >>>>
> >>>> [I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college
> >>>> kids" already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from
> >>>> the bars... We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so
> >>>> unlikely they would live here or choose to visit/shop in this
> >>>> part of town (it's a 20 minute drive at 45MPH city traffic
> >>>> speeds just to get to the campus)]
> >>> My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
> >>> rental scooters and the illegal others.
> >>
> >> illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?
> >
> > Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
> > and limited speed.
> >
> > Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
> > private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
> > how well that is enforced!
> >
> >
> >>> Typical customers are students (city centre traditional
> >>> campus), and anybody else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.
> >>>
> >>> They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
> >>> a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
> >>> enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
> >>> they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
> >>> lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)
> >>
> >> how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?
> >
> > From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
> > is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
> > from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
> > result.
> >
> > They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
> > made without consideration nor understanding - and then
> > operated without caution where they can harm other people.
> >
> Back in the seventies I applied for and received my FCC CB radio
> operators's license.
>
> When I bought my first drone the first thing I did was get on the
> FAA website and register and license it.
>
> I currently ride a scooter whenever the weather is above freezing
> and not raining. It will do like 70 MPH but there is no tags no
> license, no insurance as I will not be hitting anyone.

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 2:08:17 PM UTC-8, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.58.29 UTC+1 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
> > Tom Gardner <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
> > news:sv68j3$vem$3...@dont-email.me:
> > > On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > >> onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
> > >>> On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
> > >>>> On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > >>>>> tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
> > >>>>>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
> > >>>>>> skateboard with an upright "handlebar"...]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever
> > >>>>>> the previous "renter" lost interest in continued use
> > >>>>>> (rental).
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each
> > >>>>>> that lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing
> > >>>>>> info") as well as where it presently resides, battery state,
> > >>>>>> etc.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
> > >>>>>> prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report its
> > >>>>>> location WHILE it is being "moved without rent").
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever
> > >>>>>> each rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them
> > >>>>>> up, periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters assume
> > >>>>>> that responsibility).
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits,
> > >>>>>> here, encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san
> > >>>>>> francisco or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago)
> > >>>>>> over a widely distributed area.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of
> > >>>>>> "typical" charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could
> > >>>>>> support "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged
> > >>>>>> before arriving at their *intended* destination (?).
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this
> > >>>>>> "litter".
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
> > >>>>>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute
> > >>>>
> > >>>> They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
> > >>>> users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable
> > >>>>> battery so they don't have to bring them home for charging,
> > >>>>> they can just replace the battery
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
> > >>>> easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
> > >>>> ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent
> > >>>> rental).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet
> > >>>> (?) of trucks to canvas the city to collect/service scooters
> > >>>> for "service". Hard to imagine enough "sales" to cover
> > >>>> expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's
> > >>>>> places (controlled via the GPS)
> > >>>>> where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip
> > >>>>> there. Also prevent you from
> > >>>>> driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the
> > >>>> service. The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as
> > >>>> the "last leg" of your (public transportation) trip. If you're
> > >>>> headed *to* a storefront, then the drop-off could well be at
> > >>>> that storefront (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the
> > >>>> device after finishing your business, there).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be
> > >>>> to come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
> > >>>> assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so
> > >>>>> they can ban people that can't use common sense
> > >>>>
> > >>>> There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo
> > >>>> requirement. (and, the service has to be usable by folks
> > >>>> without "smart phones" -- one of the conditions the city put in
> > >>>> place before allowing their deployment)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after
> > >>>> you've snapped a photo of it "parked properly"?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked
> > >>>> upright, toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at
> > >>>> store A and, again, at store B -- a score of yards away.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college
> > >>>> kids" already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from
> > >>>> the bars... We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so
> > >>>> unlikely they would live here or choose to visit/shop in this
> > >>>> part of town (it's a 20 minute drive at 45MPH city traffic
> > >>>> speeds just to get to the campus)]
> > >>> My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
> > >>> rental scooters and the illegal others.
> > >>
> > >> illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?
> > >
> > > Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
> > > and limited speed.
> > >
> > > Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
> > > private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
> > > how well that is enforced!
> > >
> > >
> > >>> Typical customers are students (city centre traditional
> > >>> campus), and anybody else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.
> > >>>
> > >>> They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
> > >>> a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
> > >>> enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
> > >>> they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
> > >>> lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)
> > >>
> > >> how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?
> > >
> > > From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
> > > is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
> > > from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
> > > result.
> > >
> > > They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
> > > made without consideration nor understanding - and then
> > > operated without caution where they can harm other people.
> > >
> > Back in the seventies I applied for and received my FCC CB radio
> > operators's license.
> >
> > When I bought my first drone the first thing I did was get on the
> > FAA website and register and license it.
> >
> > I currently ride a scooter whenever the weather is above freezing
> > and not raining. It will do like 70 MPH but there is no tags no
> > license, no insurance as I will not be hitting anyone.
> everyone says that, until they do
> and then you have caused damages and possibly injuries
> you leave someone else with a big bill that you can't pay
> and no insurance to cover it ...

On 23/02/22 21:59, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.22.53 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
>> On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
>>>> On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>>>> tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
>>>>>>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
>>>>>>> an upright "handlebar"...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
>>>>>>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
>>>>>>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
>>>>>>> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
>>>>>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
>>>>>>> "moved without rent").
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
>>>>>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
>>>>>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
>>>>>>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
>>>>>>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
>>>>>>> distributed area.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
>>>>>>> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
>>>>>>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
>>>>>>> at their *intended* destination (?).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
>>>>>>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute
>>>>>
>>>>> They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
>>>>> users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)
>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
>>>>>> they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
>>>>>> battery
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
>>>>> easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
>>>>> ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).
>>>>>
>>>>> Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
>>>>> to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to
>>>>> imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled
>>>>>> via the GPS)
>>>>>> where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent
>>>>>> you from
>>>>>> driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
>>>>> The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
>>>>> of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
>>>>> storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
>>>>> (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
>>>>> your business, there).
>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
>>>>> come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?
>>>>>
>>>>> [Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
>>>>> assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]
>>>>>
>>>>>> The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
>>>>>> that can't use common sense
>>>>>
>>>>> There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
>>>>> (and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one
>>>>> of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)
>>>>>
>>>>> Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped
>>>>> a photo of it "parked properly"?
>>>>>
>>>>> [Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
>>>>> toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
>>>>> again, at store B -- a score of yards away.
>>>>>
>>>>> Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.
>>>>>
>>>>> [I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
>>>>> already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
>>>>> We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
>>>>> live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
>>>>> minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]
>>>> My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
>>>> rental scooters and the illegal others.
>>>
>>> illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?
>> Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
>> and limited speed.
>
> nonsense, you can literally buy exactly the same as used by Voi or
> numerous others type approved to exactly the same regulations
> and limited to to the same 20km/h

Not in the UK.

Even if you have the same type of scooter, they would be illegal.
The only legal scooters are the /hired/ scooters.

> you can of course also buy some that are much faster and not type approved
> for use on public roads, but that is no different that offroad/racing cars or bikes
>
>> Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
>> private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
>> how well that is enforced!
>
> you could also illegally drive an offroad motorcycle or race car on the street, that doesn't
> mean all bike or cars on the road are illegal

True, but irrelevant.

>>>> Typical customers are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
>>>> else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.
>>>>
>>>> They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
>>>> a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
>>>> enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
>>>> they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
>>>> lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)
>>>
>>> how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?
>> From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
>> is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
>> from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
>> result.
>>
>> They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
>> made without consideration nor understanding - and then
>> operated without caution where they can harm other people.
>
> they are a convenient compact alternative to a bicycle and
> the rules for using them similar

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 23.48.37 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
> On 23/02/22 21:59, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.22.53 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
> >> On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >>> onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
> >>>> On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>> On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >>>>>> tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
> >>>>>>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
> >>>>>>> an upright "handlebar"...]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
> >>>>>>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
> >>>>>>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
> >>>>>>> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
> >>>>>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
> >>>>>>> "moved without rent").
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
> >>>>>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
> >>>>>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
> >>>>>>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
> >>>>>>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
> >>>>>>> distributed area.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
> >>>>>>> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
> >>>>>>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
> >>>>>>> at their *intended* destination (?).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
> >>>>>>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute
> >>>>>
> >>>>> They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
> >>>>> users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
> >>>>>> they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
> >>>>>> battery
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
> >>>>> easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
> >>>>> ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
> >>>>> to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to
> >>>>> imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled
> >>>>>> via the GPS)
> >>>>>> where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent
> >>>>>> you from
> >>>>>> driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
> >>>>> The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
> >>>>> of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
> >>>>> storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
> >>>>> (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
> >>>>> your business, there).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
> >>>>> come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
> >>>>> assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
> >>>>>> that can't use common sense
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
> >>>>> (and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one
> >>>>> of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped
> >>>>> a photo of it "parked properly"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
> >>>>> toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
> >>>>> again, at store B -- a score of yards away.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
> >>>>> already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
> >>>>> We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
> >>>>> live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
> >>>>> minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]
> >>>> My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
> >>>> rental scooters and the illegal others.
> >>>
> >>> illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?
> >> Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
> >> and limited speed.
> >
> > nonsense, you can literally buy exactly the same as used by Voi or
> > numerous others type approved to exactly the same regulations
> > and limited to to the same 20km/h
> Not in the UK.
>
> Even if you have the same type of scooter, they would be illegal.
> The only legal scooters are the /hired/ scooters.

I know UK have some insane rules, what's next only rental cars allowed on the street?

"You will own NOTHING, you will WILL be happy about it"

On 2/23/2022 4:06 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 23.48.37 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

>> Even if you have the same type of scooter, they would be illegal.
>> The only legal scooters are the /hired/ scooters.
>
> I know UK have some insane rules, what's next only rental cars allowed on the street?
>
> "You will own NOTHING, you will WILL be happy about it"

"Legality" is a red herring -- unless you've implemented a police state and
can *ensure* that "illegal acts/devices" can not happen/exist.

The law (here) says you can't operate (or even HOLD!) a cell phone, while
driving. Yet I see nearly every car leaving my subdivision (in the morning
rush) occupied by a driver consulting their phone. This, KNOWING that any
damage/injury done will be to someone you likely KNOW or live with.

[Of course, if this was an important issue, you could mandate that
phones refuse to operate when moving at speeds in excess of human walking!
(is consulting a phone while walking without risk?)]

As a kid, I drove my (homemade) "go-kart" around the neighborhood, despite
operation on a public roadway being expressly forbidden. Each time, wondering
if some "grump" would call the police about my activity.

I can't (legally) operate a drone without line-of-sight. OTOH, if I stand on
my *roof*, that line of sight extends pretty damn far! (much farther than
the folks whose houses I'd be overflying would have expected)

It is this disconnect between what *can* be done and what is *allowed* that
is interesting. E.g., all of the little gasoline-powered skateboards that
just *disappeared*, overnight, when the laws were changed. (I know *I* would
be pissed if I suddenly couldn't use an item that I'd purchased!)

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
news:1b56315c-0715-4e37-9542-eb132ed46924n@googlegroups.com:

> onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.58.29 UTC+1 skrev
> DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
>> Tom Gardner <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:sv68j3$vem$3...@dont-email.me:
>> > On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>> >> onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom
>> >> Gardner:
>> >>> On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
>> >>>> On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>> >>>>> tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don
>> >>>>> Y:
>> >>>>>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
>> >>>>>> skateboard with an upright "handlebar"...]
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left*
>> >>>>>> wherever the previous "renter" lost interest in continued
>> >>>>>> use (rental).
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in
>> >>>>>> each that lets it phone home to report usage (and
>> >>>>>> "account/billing info") as well as where it presently
>> >>>>>> resides, battery state, etc.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
>> >>>>>> prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report
>> >>>>>> its location WHILE it is being "moved without rent").
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever
>> >>>>>> each rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round
>> >>>>>> them up, periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters
>> >>>>>> assume that responsibility).
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits,
>> >>>>>> here, encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of
>> >>>>>> san francisco or boston... just slightly larger than
>> >>>>>> Chicago) over a widely distributed area.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of
>> >>>>>> "typical" charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could
>> >>>>>> support "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are
>> >>>>>> charged before arriving at their *intended* destination
>> >>>>>> (?).
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this
>> >>>>>> "litter".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
>> >>>>>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks
>> >>>>>> *attractive*?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute
>> >>>>
>> >>>> They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
>> >>>> users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable
>> >>>>> battery so they don't have to bring them home for charging,
>> >>>>> they can just replace the battery
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must
>> >>>> be easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the
>> >>>> scooter ends up unattended for long periods after it's most
>> >>>> recent rental).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a
>> >>>> fleet (?) of trucks to canvas the city to collect/service
>> >>>> scooters for "service". Hard to imagine enough "sales" to
>> >>>> cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's
>> >>>>> places (controlled via the GPS)
>> >>>>> where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip
>> >>>>> there. Also prevent you from
>> >>>>> driving out of the area, or in places where it is not
>> >>>>> allowed
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for
>> >>>> the service. The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can
>> >>>> act as the "last leg" of your (public transportation) trip.
>> >>>> If you're headed *to* a storefront, then the drop-off could
>> >>>> well be at that storefront (no guarantee that you will want
>> >>>> to reuse the device after finishing your business, there).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter
>> >>>> be to come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> [Presumably, returning home would be when you would most
>> >>>> want assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked
>> >>>>> so they can ban people that can't use common sense
>> >>>>
>> >>>> There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo
>> >>>> requirement. (and, the service has to be usable by folks
>> >>>> without "smart phones" -- one of the conditions the city put
>> >>>> in place before allowing their deployment)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after
>> >>>> you've snapped a photo of it "parked properly"?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> [Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked
>> >>>> upright, toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g.,
>> >>>> at store A and, again, at store B -- a score of yards away.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> [I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college
>> >>>> kids" already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them
>> >>>> to/from the bars... We're a dozen? *miles* away from the
>> >>>> campus so unlikely they would live here or choose to
>> >>>> visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20 minute drive at
>> >>>> 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]
>> >>> My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
>> >>> rental scooters and the illegal others.
>> >>
>> >> illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of
>> >> rented?
>> >
>> > Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
>> > and limited speed.
>> >
>> > Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
>> > private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
>> > how well that is enforced!
>> >
>> >
>> >>> Typical customers are students (city centre traditional
>> >>> campus), and anybody else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.
>> >>>
>> >>> They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
>> >>> a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
>> >>> enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
>> >>> they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
>> >>> lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)
>> >>
>> >> how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?
>> >
>> > From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
>> > is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
>> > from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
>> > result.
>> >
>> > They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
>> > made without consideration nor understanding - and then
>> > operated without caution where they can harm other people.
>> >
>> Back in the seventies I applied for and received my FCC CB radio
>> operators's license.
>>
>> When I bought my first drone the first thing I did was get on the
>> FAA website and register and license it.
>>
>> I currently ride a scooter whenever the weather is above freezing
>> and not raining. It will do like 70 MPH but there is no tags no
>> license, no insurance as I will not be hitting anyone.
>
> everyone says that, until they do
> and then you have caused damages and possibly injuries
> you leave someone else with a big bill that you can't pay
> and no insurance to cover it ...
>

StupidAs StupidGet <buildbetterbilly@gmail.com> wrote in news:1b16cffc-
d4f4-4fe4-8ccf-7a96102a16f4n@googlegroups.com:

> He will probably Hit and Run anyway.
>

If I knew your address, I sure as fuck would, but it would be a 454
Cassul and your face, so you wouldn't know a thing cause you would be
worm food.

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 3:50:27 PM UTC-8, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
> StupidAs StupidGet <buildbet...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1b16cffc-
> d4f4-4fe4-8ccf...@googlegroups.com:
> > He will probably Hit and Run anyway.
> >
> If I knew your address, I sure as fuck would, but it would be a 454
> Cassul and your face, so you wouldn't know a thing cause you would be
> worm food.

You have no regard for law and order and public safety anyway. FFF

On 23/02/2022 8:22 am, Don Y wrote:
> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
> an upright "handlebar"...]
>
> I see these all around town.  Obviously, just *left* wherever the
> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
>
> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
>
> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
> "moved without rent").
>
> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
>
> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
> distributed area.
>
> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
>
> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
> at their *intended* destination (?).
>
> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
>
> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

the is a service in Brisbane Australia that works *exactly* as you outline.

On 2/23/2022 6:55 PM, David Eather wrote:
> On 23/02/2022 8:22 am, Don Y wrote:
>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
>> an upright "handlebar"...]
>>
>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
>>
>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
>> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
>>
>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
>> "moved without rent").
>>
>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
>>
>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
>> distributed area.
>>
>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
>> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
>>
>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
>> at their *intended* destination (?).
>>
>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
>>
>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
>
> the is a service in Brisbane Australia that works *exactly* as you outline.

There is/are at least one (likely two) that operate similarly here.

What I'm trying to understand is the economics involved. There's a fair
bit of capital outlay (you can't just buy a few of them and hope to
stumble onto sufficient ridership). All of that investment is out being
subject to abuse/theft.

[Note how often shopping carts wander away from their associated "stores".
Doubtful someone who walked a cart home will be inclined to walk it BACK!]

And, given the need for the city's buy-in, you can't expect that they will
let you cherry-pick your market.

Also are services that rent *bicycles* -- but bikes don't need to
be *regularly* refueled (and I can't imagine they experience many
flat tires that would require "attention").

It's neither a "goods" market nor a (purely) "service" market.

keyboard ninja always wrong

On 24/02/2022 1:09 pm, Don Y wrote:
> On 2/23/2022 6:55 PM, David Eather wrote:
>> On 23/02/2022 8:22 am, Don Y wrote:
>>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
>>> an upright "handlebar"...]
>>>
>>> I see these all around town.  Obviously, just *left* wherever the
>>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
>>>
>>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
>>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
>>> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
>>>
>>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
>>> "moved without rent").
>>>
>>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
>>>
>>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
>>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
>>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
>>> distributed area.
>>>
>>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
>>> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
>>>
>>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
>>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
>>> at their *intended* destination (?).
>>>
>>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
>>>
>>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
>>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
>>
>> the is a service in Brisbane Australia that works *exactly* as you
>> outline.
>
> There is/are at least one (likely two) that operate similarly here.
>
> What I'm trying to understand is the economics involved.  There's a fair
> bit of capital outlay (you can't just buy a few of them and hope to
> stumble onto sufficient ridership).  All of that investment is out being
> subject to abuse/theft.
>
> [Note how often shopping carts wander away from their associated "stores".
> Doubtful someone who walked a cart home will be inclined to walk it BACK!]
>
> And, given the need for the city's buy-in, you can't expect that they will
> let you cherry-pick your market.
>
> Also are services that rent *bicycles* -- but bikes don't need to
> be *regularly* refueled (and I can't imagine they experience many
> flat tires that would require "attention").
>
> It's neither a "goods" market nor a (purely) "service" market.

the group in Oz has gps tracking and a van goes out and swaps them over
when they need charge. They don't "take them back" unless they haven't
been used for a while. It is quite possible to use one to go home from
work (if you are within a couple of kilometers of course), leave it on
the footpath, and then in the morning hop on it again and go to work. Or
if it was flat hop on the fully charged replacement.

They have been there for a couple of years and the gold coast has a
similar service - no idea how much money they make

On 2/25/2022 8:00 PM, David Eather wrote:
> On 24/02/2022 1:09 pm, Don Y wrote:
>> On 2/23/2022 6:55 PM, David Eather wrote:
>>> On 23/02/2022 8:22 am, Don Y wrote:
>>>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
>>>> an upright "handlebar"...]
>>>>
>>>> I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
>>>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
>>>>
>>>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
>>>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
>>>> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
>>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
>>>> "moved without rent").
>>>>
>>>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
>>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
>>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
>>>>
>>>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
>>>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
>>>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
>>>> distributed area.
>>>>
>>>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
>>>> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
>>>>
>>>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
>>>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
>>>> at their *intended* destination (?).
>>>>
>>>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
>>>>
>>>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
>>>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
>>>
>>> the is a service in Brisbane Australia that works *exactly* as you outline.
>>
>> There is/are at least one (likely two) that operate similarly here.
>>
>> What I'm trying to understand is the economics involved. There's a fair
>> bit of capital outlay (you can't just buy a few of them and hope to
>> stumble onto sufficient ridership). All of that investment is out being
>> subject to abuse/theft.
>>
>> [Note how often shopping carts wander away from their associated "stores".
>> Doubtful someone who walked a cart home will be inclined to walk it BACK!]
>>
>> And, given the need for the city's buy-in, you can't expect that they will
>> let you cherry-pick your market.
>>
>> Also are services that rent *bicycles* -- but bikes don't need to
>> be *regularly* refueled (and I can't imagine they experience many
>> flat tires that would require "attention").
>>
>> It's neither a "goods" market nor a (purely) "service" market.
>
> the group in Oz has gps tracking and a van goes out and swaps them over when
> they need charge. They don't "take them back" unless they haven't been used for
> a while.

So, they replace the "dead" unit with a fresh one -- and leave it where it was
found? Even if it is "off the beaten track"?

[The other day, we saw one at the side of the road miles away from
anywhere we could imagine some OTHER user wanting the unit]

> It is quite possible to use one to go home from work (if you are
> within a couple of kilometers of course), leave it on the footpath, and then in
> the morning hop on it again and go to work. Or if it was flat hop on the fully
> charged replacement.

Wouldn't I want to stash it someplace where I knew it wouldn't
be claimed by another rider? Or, is the GPS reporting of position
sensitive enough to bitch if you take it 30 ft from the road?

> They have been there for a couple of years and the gold coast has a similar
> service - no idea how much money they make

Yeah, it seems like there's a fair bit of cost involved.

OTOH, if they *weren't* making money, you would think they
would have closed up shop (I don't think they are subsidized...?)