On 26/02/2022 4:30 pm, Don Y wrote:
> On 2/25/2022 8:00 PM, David Eather wrote:
>> On 24/02/2022 1:09 pm, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 2/23/2022 6:55 PM, David Eather wrote:
>>>> On 23/02/2022 8:22 am, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> [Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard
>>>>> with
>>>>> an upright "handlebar"...]
>>>>>
>>>>> I see these all around town.  Obviously, just *left* wherever the
>>>>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
>>>>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
>>>>> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
>>>>> prevent/discourage
>>>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
>>>>> "moved without rent").
>>>>>
>>>>> And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
>>>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
>>>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).
>>>>>
>>>>> So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
>>>>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
>>>>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
>>>>> distributed area.
>>>>>
>>>>> While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
>>>>> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
>>>>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
>>>>> at their *intended* destination (?).
>>>>>
>>>>> I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".
>>>>>
>>>>> So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
>>>>> Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?
>>>>
>>>> the is a service in Brisbane Australia that works *exactly* as you
>>>> outline.
>>>
>>> There is/are at least one (likely two) that operate similarly here.
>>>
>>> What I'm trying to understand is the economics involved.  There's a fair
>>> bit of capital outlay (you can't just buy a few of them and hope to
>>> stumble onto sufficient ridership).  All of that investment is out being
>>> subject to abuse/theft.
>>>
>>> [Note how often shopping carts wander away from their associated
>>> "stores".
>>> Doubtful someone who walked a cart home will be inclined to walk it
>>> BACK!]
>>>
>>> And, given the need for the city's buy-in, you can't expect that they
>>> will
>>> let you cherry-pick your market.
>>>
>>> Also are services that rent *bicycles* -- but bikes don't need to
>>> be *regularly* refueled (and I can't imagine they experience many
>>> flat tires that would require "attention").
>>>
>>> It's neither a "goods" market nor a (purely) "service" market.
>>
>> the group in Oz has gps tracking and a van goes out and swaps them
>> over when they need charge. They don't "take them back" unless they
>> haven't been used for a while.
>
> So, they replace the "dead" unit with a fresh one -- and leave it where
> it was
> found?  Even if it is "off the beaten track"?

They leave them where the sales are.
>
> [The other day, we saw one at the side of the road miles away from
> anywhere we could imagine some OTHER user wanting the unit]
>
>> It is quite possible to use one to go home from work (if you are
>> within a couple of kilometers of course), leave it on the footpath,
>> and then in the morning hop on it again and go to work. Or if it was
>> flat hop on the fully charged replacement.
>
> Wouldn't I want to stash it someplace where I knew it wouldn't
> be claimed by another rider?  Or, is the GPS reporting of position
> sensitive enough to bitch if you take it 30 ft from the road?

I would too (like to stash it that is), but they don't seem to. I
suspect what happens is when work is over you go to the local (inner
city) charge station, ride one home and leave it outside (they are not
really kids scooters so no interest there) In the morning you take it
back to work and the local charge station and during the day other
people ride it around the city) and end of day you just grab which ever
one is there and home you go. Whatever happens it seems to work.

>
>> They have been there for a couple of years and the gold coast has a
>> similar service - no idea how much money they make
>
> Yeah, it seems like there's a fair bit of cost involved.
>
> OTOH, if they *weren't* making money, you would think they
> would have closed up shop (I don't think they are subsidized...?)

On 2/28/2022 9:19 PM, David Eather wrote:
>>> the group in Oz has gps tracking and a van goes out and swaps them over when
>>> they need charge. They don't "take them back" unless they haven't been used
>>> for a while.
>>
>> So, they replace the "dead" unit with a fresh one -- and leave it where it was
>> found? Even if it is "off the beaten track"?
>
> They leave them where the sales are.

I guess it depends on where they consider the sale to have *been*.
E.g., I see it at the point where the trip originated -- not where
the next trip *might* originate.

>> [The other day, we saw one at the side of the road miles away from
>> anywhere we could imagine some OTHER user wanting the unit]

This being a good example of the above: clearly there *was* a sale...
somewhere *else*! Whether another sale follows from the place
where the scooter was left is not yet known.

>>> It is quite possible to use one to go home from work (if you are within a
>>> couple of kilometers of course), leave it on the footpath, and then in the
>>> morning hop on it again and go to work. Or if it was flat hop on the fully
>>> charged replacement.
>>
>> Wouldn't I want to stash it someplace where I knew it wouldn't
>> be claimed by another rider? Or, is the GPS reporting of position
>> sensitive enough to bitch if you take it 30 ft from the road?
>
> I would too (like to stash it that is), but they don't seem to. I suspect what
> happens is when work is over you go to the local (inner city) charge station,

That would assume such a place is convenient to most potential riders.

Here, there is no real "down-town" that would be representative of the
majority of work traffic. The University is a source of potential
riders. But, there is a streetcar that services that area so the
only need for an "untethered" transport would be if you wanted to
*leave* that area.

> ride one home and leave it outside (they are not really kids scooters so no
> interest there) In the morning you take it back to work

But, if you left it curbside, near your home, what's the guarantee
that you will find it there the next morning? (hence my "stash it"
strategy). It would be disheartening to plan your morning with the
expectation of a *ride* to work -- only to discover that ride isn't
available!

<frown> Sadly, I can't practically observe ridership as we live
in an area where there are as many *vehicles* as residents (NOT
"residences" but "residents").

> and the local charge
> station and during the day other people ride it around the city) and end of day
> you just grab which ever one is there and home you go. Whatever happens it
> seems to work.
>
>>> They have been there for a couple of years and the gold coast has a similar
>>> service - no idea how much money they make
>>
>> Yeah, it seems like there's a fair bit of cost involved.
>>
>> OTOH, if they *weren't* making money, you would think they
>> would have closed up shop (I don't think they are subsidized...?)

On 2/03/2022 9:42 am, Don Y wrote:
> On 2/28/2022 9:19 PM, David Eather wrote:
>>>> the group in Oz has gps tracking and a van goes out and swaps them
>>>> over when they need charge. They don't "take them back" unless they
>>>> haven't been used for a while.
>>>
>>> So, they replace the "dead" unit with a fresh one -- and leave it
>>> where it was
>>> found?  Even if it is "off the beaten track"?
>>
>> They leave them where the sales are.
>
> I guess it depends on where they consider the sale to have *been*.
> E.g., I see it at the point where the trip originated -- not where
> the next trip *might* originate.
>
>>> [The other day, we saw one at the side of the road miles away from
>>> anywhere we could imagine some OTHER user wanting the unit]
>
> This being a good example of the above:  clearly there *was* a sale...
> somewhere *else*!  Whether another sale follows from the place
> where the scooter was left is not yet known.
>
>>>> It is quite possible to use one to go home from work (if you are
>>>> within a couple of kilometers of course), leave it on the footpath,
>>>> and then in the morning hop on it again and go to work. Or if it was
>>>> flat hop on the fully charged replacement.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't I want to stash it someplace where I knew it wouldn't
>>> be claimed by another rider?  Or, is the GPS reporting of position
>>> sensitive enough to bitch if you take it 30 ft from the road?
>>
>> I would too (like to stash it that is), but they don't seem to. I
>> suspect what happens is when work is over you go to the local (inner
>> city) charge station,
>
> That would assume such a place is convenient to most potential riders.
>
> Here, there is no real "down-town" that would be representative of the
> majority of work traffic.  The University is a source of potential
> riders.  But, there is a streetcar that services that area so the
> only need for an "untethered" transport would be if you wanted to
> *leave* that area.
>
>> ride one home and leave it outside (they are not really kids scooters
>> so no interest there) In the morning you take it back to work
>
> But, if you left it curbside, near your home, what's the guarantee
> that you will find it there the next morning?  (hence my "stash it"
> strategy).  It would be disheartening to plan your morning with the
> expectation of a *ride* to work -- only to discover that ride isn't
> available!
>
> <frown>  Sadly, I can't practically observe ridership as we live
> in an area where there are as many *vehicles* as residents (NOT
> "residences" but "residents").
>
>> and the local charge station and during the day other people ride it
>> around the city) and end of day you just grab which ever one is there
>> and home you go. Whatever happens it seems to work.
>>
>>>> They have been there for a couple of years and the gold coast has a
>>>> similar service - no idea how much money they make
>>>
>>> Yeah, it seems like there's a fair bit of cost involved.
>>>
>>> OTOH, if they *weren't* making money, you would think they
>>> would have closed up shop (I don't think they are subsidized...?)

What the fuck do you want? Their business plan works for them. You are
just criticizing what you cant be bothered to do. END.

On 3/1/2022 6:59 PM, David Eather wrote:
> On 2/03/2022 9:42 am, Don Y wrote:
>> On 2/28/2022 9:19 PM, David Eather wrote:
>>>>> the group in Oz has gps tracking and a van goes out and swaps them over
>>>>> when they need charge. They don't "take them back" unless they haven't
>>>>> been used for a while.
>>>>
>>>> So, they replace the "dead" unit with a fresh one -- and leave it where it was
>>>> found? Even if it is "off the beaten track"?
>>>
>>> They leave them where the sales are.
>>
>> I guess it depends on where they consider the sale to have *been*.
>> E.g., I see it at the point where the trip originated -- not where
>> the next trip *might* originate.
>>
>>>> [The other day, we saw one at the side of the road miles away from
>>>> anywhere we could imagine some OTHER user wanting the unit]
>>
>> This being a good example of the above: clearly there *was* a sale...
>> somewhere *else*! Whether another sale follows from the place
>> where the scooter was left is not yet known.
>>
>>>>> It is quite possible to use one to go home from work (if you are within a
>>>>> couple of kilometers of course), leave it on the footpath, and then in the
>>>>> morning hop on it again and go to work. Or if it was flat hop on the fully
>>>>> charged replacement.
>>>>
>>>> Wouldn't I want to stash it someplace where I knew it wouldn't
>>>> be claimed by another rider? Or, is the GPS reporting of position
>>>> sensitive enough to bitch if you take it 30 ft from the road?
>>>
>>> I would too (like to stash it that is), but they don't seem to. I suspect
>>> what happens is when work is over you go to the local (inner city) charge
>>> station,
>>
>> That would assume such a place is convenient to most potential riders.
>>
>> Here, there is no real "down-town" that would be representative of the
>> majority of work traffic. The University is a source of potential
>> riders. But, there is a streetcar that services that area so the
>> only need for an "untethered" transport would be if you wanted to
>> *leave* that area.
>>
>>> ride one home and leave it outside (they are not really kids scooters so no
>>> interest there) In the morning you take it back to work
>>
>> But, if you left it curbside, near your home, what's the guarantee
>> that you will find it there the next morning? (hence my "stash it"
>> strategy). It would be disheartening to plan your morning with the
>> expectation of a *ride* to work -- only to discover that ride isn't
>> available!
>>
>> <frown> Sadly, I can't practically observe ridership as we live
>> in an area where there are as many *vehicles* as residents (NOT
>> "residences" but "residents").
>>
>>> and the local charge station and during the day other people ride it around
>>> the city) and end of day you just grab which ever one is there and home you
>>> go. Whatever happens it seems to work.
>>>
>>>>> They have been there for a couple of years and the gold coast has a
>>>>> similar service - no idea how much money they make
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, it seems like there's a fair bit of cost involved.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, if they *weren't* making money, you would think they
>>>> would have closed up shop (I don't think they are subsidized...?)
>
> What the fuck do you want?

I want to understand their business plan. I don't see others
rushing to adopt it.

> Their business plan works for them. You are just
> criticizing what you cant be bothered to do. END.

I have no desire to "do" anything comparable. What makes
you think that I would? Did I *claim* I wanted to do so?

The *two* providers, here, logged ~174K trips in a 6 month
"trial" period. The average trip being 9 minutes to cover
0.86 miles (about 5.7 MPH -- walking speed is 3 MPH).

Assuming none of them were discounted rides (half price),
that's 174K flag drops ($174K) and 1.6M "rider minutes"
($454K) to travel 142K miles.

So, $628K of revenue. Municipal fees totalled $73K.
As such, a *maximum* of $555K to purchase, maintain and
operate their fleets (1000 plus units) over that period.

Ridership waned to *half* of what it was initially.

Here, *residents* develop city and county policy at the
ballot box. E.g., we've made *all* photo-enforcement of
traffic laws illegal as a response to the implementation
decisions left in the hands of legislators and vendors.

So, it makes sense to understand the math behind these
business decisions as it portends the likely future of
these programs. The more profitable an undertaking,
the more likely a vendor will work to continue having
access to a market and implementing practices that
fit with the wishes of the *entire* population, not
the 30K "unique riders" that used the service in that
period. Likewise, the less profitable a service proves
to be, the more enticement needs to be offered.

On 2/22/22 22:57, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
> The real litter problem in the USA is really assholes and their
> discarded cigarette butts.

I remember the days of smoking in the supermarket, dropping the butts on
the floor and thoughtfully stepping on them when finished.

On 01/03/22 23:42, Don Y wrote:
> Here, there is no real "down-town" that would be representative of the
> majority of work traffic.  The University is a source of potential
> riders.  But, there is a streetcar that services that area so the
> only need for an "untethered" transport would be if you wanted to
> *leave* that area.

I've seen claims that scooters take passengers away from busses.
I regard that as difficult to distinguish from covid effects.

On 3/2/2022 7:57 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 01/03/22 23:42, Don Y wrote:
>> Here, there is no real "down-town" that would be representative of the
>> majority of work traffic. The University is a source of potential
>> riders. But, there is a streetcar that services that area so the
>> only need for an "untethered" transport would be if you wanted to
>> *leave* that area.
>
> I've seen claims that scooters take passengers away from busses.
> I regard that as difficult to distinguish from covid effects.

We have piss poor "public transit", here. We're a bit larger
than Chicago yet with a tiny fraction of the "transit" options
(bus, subway, rail). So, the city is often looking for "easy"
(read: "piss poor") alternatives to expand accessibility.

[The streetcar and scooters being their most recent attempts]

So, the scooters offer access to areas not serviced by busses.
(It is illegal to carry a scooter onto a bus so you need to hope
the bus stops *near* an available scooter).

Only 3% of survey respondents said the lack of the scooter
service would have left them with a bus as their likely mode
of transit (36% would have walked, 24% would have taken
their own vehicle while 14% would have used some other
livery service)

But, it doesn't appear to be a viable option to address
the entire population (and the entire city area). As they
are supposed to ride on the roadways, the quality of the
pavement (shoulder) is an issue (60% of riders had this
complaint) and their perceived safety in riding there
(50% of riders).

As a result, most (98% of observed rides) ride on the
sidewalk. And, a similar portion (98%) ride without
helmets.

As would be expected, 75% of *riders* approve of their
availability while 66% of NON-riders disapprove.
Likely related to age/wealth demographics... you're
unlikely to want/need a scooter if you've got a car;
similarly, if you're living in a dorm/etc. where
having a vehicle is difficult/costly, then you
likely welcome their availability (as "walking" is
so tedious for a young person! :> )