Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?

I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.

The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.

All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.

On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
>
> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
>
> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
>
> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.

That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> >
> > I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> >
> > The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> >
> > All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis

On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >
> > > Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> > >
> > > I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> > >
> > > The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> > >
> > > All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> > That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > a...@yellowjersey.org
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis

Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all..

Lou

On Thu, 28 Sep 2023 08:10:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis

That's also the way stainless marine hardware is attached to masts and
spars. However, there are some tricks involved. One is to grind the
hole in the CF, not drill it. Another is to coat the rivet with epoxy
to strengthen the joint and to eliminate any voids that might collect
water. For marine use, there's usually a fiberglass insulated backing
plate to reduce electrolysis. I don't know if this is common practice
on CF bicycles. The epoxy also acts as something of an insulator.
Since you don't believe anyone with bicycling experience, or myself
with marine radio design experience, perhaps you'll believe someone in
the sailboat construction and repair sector. Since you have three
degrees in navigation and are a life member of a yacht club, finding
someone with experience should be easy.

You might also ask Andre Jute, who claims to have extensive marine
experience:
July 6, 2022
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/ZMiLSdqisfg/m/Nq4yMqlMAgAJ>
"A yacht club where I was commodore a good fifty years ago, and where
I have a lifetime membership, and am an honorary president, and
entitled to wear the commodore’s gold rings on my blazer for life, a
privilege voted me for my transits of Cape Horn and other feats in a
sailing ship of my own design and construction, wouldn't be so
polite".

<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/ZMiLSdqisfg/m/I6-FL5BOAgAJ>
"My ship was solidly built of moulded wood laminated in 6in squares of
veneer, which made it pretty sturdy for its weight. It was built so
well, it’s still going in the South China Sea, now motorised, carrying
cargo between small villages. Nothing built in FRP at that time would
still be seaworthy."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 28 Sep 2023 08:48:29 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57?PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
>> > >
>> > > I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
>> > >
>> > > The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
>> > >
>> > > All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
>> > That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
>> > --
>> > Andrew Muzi
>> > a...@yellowjersey.org
>> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
>
>
>Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
>
>Lou

Electrolyses is a funny thing. Pure water is an insulator, a fact that
I discovered when asked to machine some water cooled conductors for a
high voltage radio system, so electrolyses is very much a factor of
what's in the water. Which is why "corrosion" is high in northern U.S.
states that sprinkle salt on their roads and much less in tropical
countries where only rain water is on the roads.

Given that is likely that most cyclists aren't riding on salty roads
probably electrolyses is a minor (at beast) worry for bicycles.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 28 Sep 2023 11:35:27 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 28 Sep 2023 08:10:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
>
>That's also the way stainless marine hardware is attached to masts and
>spars. However, there are some tricks involved. One is to grind the
>hole in the CF, not drill it. Another is to coat the rivet with epoxy
>to strengthen the joint and to eliminate any voids that might collect
>water. For marine use, there's usually a fiberglass insulated backing
>plate to reduce electrolysis. I don't know if this is common practice
>on CF bicycles. The epoxy also acts as something of an insulator.
>Since you don't believe anyone with bicycling experience, or myself
>with marine radio design experience, perhaps you'll believe someone in
>the sailboat construction and repair sector. Since you have three
>degrees in navigation and are a life member of a yacht club, finding
>someone with experience should be easy.
>
They make a number different kinds of "stuff" to use as an insulator
between aluminum and stainless fitting and fasteners on boats.
See https://www.mcmaster.com/products/corrosion-inhibiting-coatings/

As for our very own Andy, "a good fifty years ago", puts him in his
20's. and he say his Commodore appoint was due to having sailed around
the Horn sometime earlier... A 18 year old hero I guess.

Or an elderly liar?

>You might also ask Andre Jute, who claims to have extensive marine
>experience:
>July 6, 2022
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/ZMiLSdqisfg/m/Nq4yMqlMAgAJ>
>"A yacht club where I was commodore a good fifty years ago, and where
>I have a lifetime membership, and am an honorary president, and
>entitled to wear the commodore’s gold rings on my blazer for life, a
>privilege voted me for my transits of Cape Horn and other feats in a
>sailing ship of my own design and construction, wouldn't be so
>polite".
>
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/ZMiLSdqisfg/m/I6-FL5BOAgAJ>
>"My ship was solidly built of moulded wood laminated in 6in squares of
>veneer, which made it pretty sturdy for its weight. It was built so
>well, it’s still going in the South China Sea, now motorised, carrying
>cargo between small villages. Nothing built in FRP at that time would
>still be seaworthy."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, September 29, 2023 at 3:16:40 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2023 11:35:27 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
> >On Thu, 28 Sep 2023 08:10:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> ><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
> >
> >That's also the way stainless marine hardware is attached to masts and
> >spars. However, there are some tricks involved. One is to grind the
> >hole in the CF, not drill it. Another is to coat the rivet with epoxy
> >to strengthen the joint and to eliminate any voids that might collect
> >water. For marine use, there's usually a fiberglass insulated backing
> >plate to reduce electrolysis. I don't know if this is common practice
> >on CF bicycles. The epoxy also acts as something of an insulator.
> >Since you don't believe anyone with bicycling experience, or myself
> >with marine radio design experience, perhaps you'll believe someone in
> >the sailboat construction and repair sector. Since you have three
> >degrees in navigation and are a life member of a yacht club, finding
> >someone with experience should be easy.
> >
> They make a number different kinds of "stuff" to use as an insulator
> between aluminum and stainless fitting and fasteners on boats.
> See https://www.mcmaster.com/products/corrosion-inhibiting-coatings/
>
> As for our very own Andy, "a good fifty years ago", puts him in his
> 20's. and he say his Commodore appoint was due to having sailed around
> the Horn sometime earlier... A 18 year old hero I guess.
>
> Or an elderly liar?

I hear he got his "navigation degree" from the same school tommy did.

> >You might also ask Andre Jute, who claims to have extensive marine
> >experience:
> >July 6, 2022
> ><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/ZMiLSdqisfg/m/Nq4yMqlMAgAJ>
> >"A yacht club where I was commodore a good fifty years ago, and where
> >I have a lifetime membership, and am an honorary president, and
> >entitled to wear the commodore’s gold rings on my blazer for life, a
> >privilege voted me for my transits of Cape Horn and other feats in a
> >sailing ship of my own design and construction, wouldn't be so
> >polite".
> >
> ><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/ZMiLSdqisfg/m/I6-FL5BOAgAJ>
> >"My ship was solidly built of moulded wood laminated in 6in squares of
> >veneer, which made it pretty sturdy for its weight. It was built so
> >well, it’s still going in the South China Sea, now motorised, carrying
> >cargo between small villages. Nothing built in FRP at that time would
> >still be seaworthy."
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> > > >
> > > > I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> > > >
> > > > The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> > > >
> > > > All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> > > That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muzi
> > > a...@yellowjersey.org
> > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
>
> Lou

The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.

I can't think of another way of discovering that it was that screw unless you had a properly assembled unit and had to tighten that screw in to make the derailleur snug against the plate.

So, NOW with the adapter installed and the alignment correct - the chain will not move out onto the 11 speed large ring. It appears that this adapter has the derailleur moved outwards to the same position as the original braze-on plate. I just compared them and they look like the position is the same. The difference would be too small to tell the difference. Since all of the other units I bought new and they arrived properly adjusted in the first place I had no idea of all of the extreme adjustments that were on these units. So now I have those properly adjusted. I have no idea what sort of bike these Dura Ace parts were fitted on to have these extreme settings. Apparently it was a bike with bearings pushed into the frame so that it had a VERY narrow BB. I remember seeing a Hambini video knocking those because they weren't true from one side to the other. But I agree with him that done correctly that would be the way to do it. What's it matter if you push them into a holder like a BB90 or into the frame if it was true from one side to the other? A set of NTN sealed bearing would pretty much outlive a carbon fiber frame.

And we're back at the argument I was having with Lou - IF you have permanent bearings fixed to the frame the WEAR points are the crankset. It is easier to replace the crankset than the interference fit bearings in the frame.

At this point I am ready to test ride the bike tomorrow. Today it is off and on sprinkling.

The bike is heavier than I would have thought - 19 lbs. But it is a 60 cm frameset and instead of the superlight Helium fork, it has the much stronger BMC racing fork I expect that there are lighter parts - the Ritchey seat post is used to support the bike in the workstand so it is about as strong as you can get. The Praxis BB90 is pretty heavy. The wheels are aluminum but they ae fairly light and I sure as hell am not paying $2,500 to save one or two ounces.

I thought about Lou's comments that you can't tell how much power you're putting out without a power meter. But I had one before and after a couple of rides you paid no attention to it. If you were a racer in training I suppose it could be of some use, but I am not a racer and if I were to develop 150 watts anymore I would be very surprised. And using heart rate and timing a flat course you can tell your conditions as close as I need.

On 9/30/2023 5:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> ... It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. ...

So many problems!

> I thought about Lou's comments that you can't tell how much power you're putting out without a power meter. But I had one before and after a couple of rides you paid no attention to it. If you were a racer in training I suppose it could be of some use, but I am not a racer and if I were to develop 150 watts anymore I would be very surprised. And using heart rate and timing a flat course you can tell your conditions as close as I need.

I have no use for a power meter either, since I'm not training to race.
But ISTM that since you do a lot of climbing on the same routes, you can
compute your power output fairly easily. Pick a stretch of road with a
known constant slope and record your climbing speed in that section.
Using your total bike+rider weight and some elementary physics, it's an
easy calculation.

Or for you, use one of the many bike speed calculator sites, similar to
this one: http://bikecalculator.com/

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> > > > >
> > > > > I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> > > > >
> > > > > All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> > > > That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> > > > --
> > > > Andrew Muzi
> > > > a...@yellowjersey.org
> > > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
> > Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
> >
> > Lou
> The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.

Unbelievable...... RTFM

Lou

On Sat, 30 Sep 2023 14:48:17 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on...

Braze on? I seem to recall that your Ridley Helium frame was made
from carbon fiber? How does one braze to carbon fiber? Perhaps you
meant front derailleur hanger or mount" like these?
<https://www.google.com/search?q=front+derailleur+hanger&tbm=isch>

This is probably what you bought on eBay:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/255674322671>
Complete with a photo of the front derailleur hanger:
<https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/cFEAAOSwqtli9p3z/s-l1600.jpg>
<https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/8PUAAOSwSIdkC68u/s-l1600.jpg>
The rivets look like aluminum (steel would be plating or shiny) with
some kind of insulating gasket between the hanger and the CF seat
tube.

Looks like genuine hangers are available:
<https://b2b.luciditybizdev.com/products/fdchsl4za003>
<https://ca-swinnertoncycles.glopalstore.com/ridley-derraileur-clamp-front-helium-sl-3mm-p89799>
You can also buy genuine Ridley rivets:
<https://ca-swinnertoncycles.glopalstore.com/ridley-rivet-to-fix-ft-mech-clamp-single-p89800>

If those are the parts, then I don't see how it is possible to install
the hanger "slightly crooked":
(Sept 24, 2023)
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/h6eO4WjXGLY/m/SKBM8BofBgAJ>
"It turns out that the front derailleur bracket was installed slightly
crooked."

I'm suspicious. Why haven't you posted any photos of your Ridley
project bicycle or of the areas where you were having problems? Why
were you ready to give up on the Ridley, immediately buy a very used
steel Serotta frame and are now back to working on the Ridley? Seems
a bit strange.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> > > > > That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> > > > > --
> > > > > Andrew Muzi
> > > > > a...@yellowjersey.org
> > > > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > > That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
> > > Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
> Unbelievable...... RTFM
>
> Lou

As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.

On 9/30/2023 4:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
>>>>>
>>>>> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
>>>>>
>>>>> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
>>>> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
>> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
>>
>> Lou
>
> The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
>
> I can't think of another way of discovering that it was that screw unless you had a properly assembled unit and had to tighten that screw in to make the derailleur snug against the plate.
>
> So, NOW with the adapter installed and the alignment correct - the chain will not move out onto the 11 speed large ring. It appears that this adapter has the derailleur moved outwards to the same position as the original braze-on plate. I just compared them and they look like the position is the same. The difference would be too small to tell the difference. Since all of the other units I bought new and they arrived properly adjusted in the first place I had no idea of all of the extreme adjustments that were on these units. So now I have those properly adjusted. I have no idea what sort of bike these Dura Ace parts were fitted on to have these extreme settings. Apparently it was a bike with bearings pushed into the frame so that it had a VERY narrow BB. I remember seeing a Hambini video knocking those because they weren't true from one side to the other. But I agree with him that done correctly that would be the way to do it. What's it matter if you push them into a holder like a BB90 or into the frame if it was true from one side to the other? A set of NTN sealed bearing would pretty much outlive a carbon fiber frame.
>
> And we're back at the argument I was having with Lou - IF you have permanent bearings fixed to the frame the WEAR points are the crankset. It is easier to replace the crankset than the interference fit bearings in the frame.
>
> At this point I am ready to test ride the bike tomorrow. Today it is off and on sprinkling.
>
> The bike is heavier than I would have thought - 19 lbs. But it is a 60 cm frameset and instead of the superlight Helium fork, it has the much stronger BMC racing fork I expect that there are lighter parts - the Ritchey seat post is used to support the bike in the workstand so it is about as strong as you can get. The Praxis BB90 is pretty heavy. The wheels are aluminum but they ae fairly light and I sure as hell am not paying $2,500 to save one or two ounces.
>
> I thought about Lou's comments that you can't tell how much power you're putting out without a power meter. But I had one before and after a couple of rides you paid no attention to it. If you were a racer in training I suppose it could be of some use, but I am not a racer and if I were to develop 150 watts anymore I would be very surprised. And using heart rate and timing a flat course you can tell your conditions as close as I need.
Sorry to be repetitive but good practice, when installing a
new or 'new to you' part, is to open the box and read the
directions fully and carefully first. Saves an immense
amount of time and trouble.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 4:35:14 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard.. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> > > > > > That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Andrew Muzi
> > > > > > a...@yellowjersey.org
> > > > > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > > > That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
> > > > Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
> > Unbelievable...... RTFM
> >
> > Lou
> As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.

You wrote nothing. You wrecked your frame because of your stupidity. Luckily it is only a 200 dollar frame...

Lou

On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:38:02 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/30/2023 4:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> >>>> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
> >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
> >> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
> >>
> >> Lou
> >
> > The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
> >
> > I can't think of another way of discovering that it was that screw unless you had a properly assembled unit and had to tighten that screw in to make the derailleur snug against the plate.
> >
> > So, NOW with the adapter installed and the alignment correct - the chain will not move out onto the 11 speed large ring. It appears that this adapter has the derailleur moved outwards to the same position as the original braze-on plate. I just compared them and they look like the position is the same. The difference would be too small to tell the difference. Since all of the other units I bought new and they arrived properly adjusted in the first place I had no idea of all of the extreme adjustments that were on these units. So now I have those properly adjusted. I have no idea what sort of bike these Dura Ace parts were fitted on to have these extreme settings. Apparently it was a bike with bearings pushed into the frame so that it had a VERY narrow BB. I remember seeing a Hambini video knocking those because they weren't true from one side to the other. But I agree with him that done correctly that would be the way to do it. What's it matter if you push them into a holder like a BB90 or into the frame if it was true from one side to the other? A set of NTN sealed bearing would pretty much outlive a carbon fiber frame.
> >
> > And we're back at the argument I was having with Lou - IF you have permanent bearings fixed to the frame the WEAR points are the crankset. It is easier to replace the crankset than the interference fit bearings in the frame.
> >
> > At this point I am ready to test ride the bike tomorrow. Today it is off and on sprinkling.
> >
> > The bike is heavier than I would have thought - 19 lbs. But it is a 60 cm frameset and instead of the superlight Helium fork, it has the much stronger BMC racing fork I expect that there are lighter parts - the Ritchey seat post is used to support the bike in the workstand so it is about as strong as you can get. The Praxis BB90 is pretty heavy. The wheels are aluminum but they ae fairly light and I sure as hell am not paying $2,500 to save one or two ounces.
> >
> > I thought about Lou's comments that you can't tell how much power you're putting out without a power meter. But I had one before and after a couple of rides you paid no attention to it. If you were a racer in training I suppose it could be of some use, but I am not a racer and if I were to develop 150 watts anymore I would be very surprised. And using heart rate and timing a flat course you can tell your conditions as close as I need.
> Sorry to be repetitive but good practice, when installing a
> new or 'new to you' part, is to open the box and read the
> directions fully and carefully first. Saves an immense
> amount of time and trouble.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andrew, you obviously do not buy things off of Ebay. There is no manual. And in the normal manual the mention of that stability screw is so slight as to be unnoticeable. You and Lou seem to have the idea that anything and everything can be solved by reading it in the manual. It can't. You yourself could NEVER have discovered what was causing the derailleur not to center properly since you couldn't see it at all. And the head of the screw on the outside did not appear to line up with the screw on the back of the derailleur.

On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:53:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 4:35:14 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> > > > > > > That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Andrew Muzi
> > > > > > > a...@yellowjersey.org
> > > > > > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > > > > That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
> > > > > Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
> > > Unbelievable...... RTFM
> > >
> > > Lou
> > As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.
> You wrote nothing. You wrecked your frame because of your stupidity. Luckily it is only a 200 dollar frame...
>
> Lou

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bop/d/san-francisco-ridley-isp-helium-high/7662857551.html

Look at the attachment of THAT front derailleur. Are you calling that Helium frame wrecked? No wonder the world was designed and built by America. While we were building the Golden Gare Bridge you were building windmills to pump water off of your farms.

On 10/1/2023 10:09 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:38:02 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/30/2023 4:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
>>>>>> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
>>>> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>> The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
>>>
>>> I can't think of another way of discovering that it was that screw unless you had a properly assembled unit and had to tighten that screw in to make the derailleur snug against the plate.
>>>
>>> So, NOW with the adapter installed and the alignment correct - the chain will not move out onto the 11 speed large ring. It appears that this adapter has the derailleur moved outwards to the same position as the original braze-on plate. I just compared them and they look like the position is the same. The difference would be too small to tell the difference. Since all of the other units I bought new and they arrived properly adjusted in the first place I had no idea of all of the extreme adjustments that were on these units. So now I have those properly adjusted. I have no idea what sort of bike these Dura Ace parts were fitted on to have these extreme settings. Apparently it was a bike with bearings pushed into the frame so that it had a VERY narrow BB. I remember seeing a Hambini video knocking those because they weren't true from one side to the other. But I agree with him that done correctly that would be the way to do it. What's it matter if you push them into a holder like a BB90 or into the frame if it was true from one side to the other? A set of NTN sealed bearing would pretty much outlive a carbon fiber frame.
>>>
>>> And we're back at the argument I was having with Lou - IF you have permanent bearings fixed to the frame the WEAR points are the crankset. It is easier to replace the crankset than the interference fit bearings in the frame.
>>>
>>> At this point I am ready to test ride the bike tomorrow. Today it is off and on sprinkling.
>>>
>>> The bike is heavier than I would have thought - 19 lbs. But it is a 60 cm frameset and instead of the superlight Helium fork, it has the much stronger BMC racing fork I expect that there are lighter parts - the Ritchey seat post is used to support the bike in the workstand so it is about as strong as you can get. The Praxis BB90 is pretty heavy. The wheels are aluminum but they ae fairly light and I sure as hell am not paying $2,500 to save one or two ounces.
>>>
>>> I thought about Lou's comments that you can't tell how much power you're putting out without a power meter. But I had one before and after a couple of rides you paid no attention to it. If you were a racer in training I suppose it could be of some use, but I am not a racer and if I were to develop 150 watts anymore I would be very surprised. And using heart rate and timing a flat course you can tell your conditions as close as I need.
>> Sorry to be repetitive but good practice, when installing a
>> new or 'new to you' part, is to open the box and read the
>> directions fully and carefully first. Saves an immense
>> amount of time and trouble.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Andrew, you obviously do not buy things off of Ebay. There is no manual. And in the normal manual the mention of that stability screw is so slight as to be unnoticeable. You and Lou seem to have the idea that anything and everything can be solved by reading it in the manual. It can't. You yourself could NEVER have discovered what was causing the derailleur not to center properly since you couldn't see it at all. And the head of the screw on the outside did not appear to line up with the screw on the back of the derailleur.
When buying used parts, check the Shimano (or Campagnolo or
GM Delco or Eduardo Weber or whatever) technical page for
your product. Even just the exploded drawing would have
helped in this case.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 10/1/2023 10:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:53:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 4:35:14 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
>>>>>>>> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
>>>>>> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>> The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
>>>> Unbelievable...... RTFM
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>> As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.
>> You wrote nothing. You wrecked your frame because of your stupidity. Luckily it is only a 200 dollar frame...
>>
>> Lou
>
> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bop/d/san-francisco-ridley-isp-helium-high/7662857551.html
>
> Look at the attachment of THAT front derailleur. Are you calling that Helium frame wrecked? No wonder the world was designed and built by America. While we were building the Golden Gare Bridge you were building windmills to pump water off of your farms.

Uh, Nederlands agriculture produces more per acre than US.
By quite a bit. You don't want to tell them about
agriculture - they will tell you!
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 8:13:05 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/1/2023 10:09 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:38:02 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 9/30/2023 4:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> >>>>>> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
> >>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
> >>>> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
> >>>>
> >>>> Lou
> >>>
> >>> The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
> >>>
> >>> I can't think of another way of discovering that it was that screw unless you had a properly assembled unit and had to tighten that screw in to make the derailleur snug against the plate.
> >>>
> >>> So, NOW with the adapter installed and the alignment correct - the chain will not move out onto the 11 speed large ring. It appears that this adapter has the derailleur moved outwards to the same position as the original braze-on plate. I just compared them and they look like the position is the same. The difference would be too small to tell the difference. Since all of the other units I bought new and they arrived properly adjusted in the first place I had no idea of all of the extreme adjustments that were on these units. So now I have those properly adjusted. I have no idea what sort of bike these Dura Ace parts were fitted on to have these extreme settings.. Apparently it was a bike with bearings pushed into the frame so that it had a VERY narrow BB. I remember seeing a Hambini video knocking those because they weren't true from one side to the other. But I agree with him that done correctly that would be the way to do it. What's it matter if you push them into a holder like a BB90 or into the frame if it was true from one side to the other? A set of NTN sealed bearing would pretty much outlive a carbon fiber frame.
> >>>
> >>> And we're back at the argument I was having with Lou - IF you have permanent bearings fixed to the frame the WEAR points are the crankset. It is easier to replace the crankset than the interference fit bearings in the frame.
> >>>
> >>> At this point I am ready to test ride the bike tomorrow. Today it is off and on sprinkling.
> >>>
> >>> The bike is heavier than I would have thought - 19 lbs. But it is a 60 cm frameset and instead of the superlight Helium fork, it has the much stronger BMC racing fork I expect that there are lighter parts - the Ritchey seat post is used to support the bike in the workstand so it is about as strong as you can get. The Praxis BB90 is pretty heavy. The wheels are aluminum but they ae fairly light and I sure as hell am not paying $2,500 to save one or two ounces.
> >>>
> >>> I thought about Lou's comments that you can't tell how much power you're putting out without a power meter. But I had one before and after a couple of rides you paid no attention to it. If you were a racer in training I suppose it could be of some use, but I am not a racer and if I were to develop 150 watts anymore I would be very surprised. And using heart rate and timing a flat course you can tell your conditions as close as I need.
> >> Sorry to be repetitive but good practice, when installing a
> >> new or 'new to you' part, is to open the box and read the
> >> directions fully and carefully first. Saves an immense
> >> amount of time and trouble.
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> a...@yellowjersey.org
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > Andrew, you obviously do not buy things off of Ebay. There is no manual.. And in the normal manual the mention of that stability screw is so slight as to be unnoticeable. You and Lou seem to have the idea that anything and everything can be solved by reading it in the manual. It can't. You yourself could NEVER have discovered what was causing the derailleur not to center properly since you couldn't see it at all. And the head of the screw on the outside did not appear to line up with the screw on the back of the derailleur.
> When buying used parts, check the Shimano (or Campagnolo or
> GM Delco or Eduardo Weber or whatever) technical page for
> your product. Even just the exploded drawing would have
> helped in this case.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Glad you think so. Trying to insert the FD into the adapter Robinson took a minute to figure out why it wouldn't fit and HE could turn it around and look at it from every angle. And he was the team mechanic for 7-11 when Hampsten won the Giro.

On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 8:14:56 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/1/2023 10:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:53:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 4:35:14 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> >>>>>>>> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
> >>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>>>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
> >>>>>> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Lou
> >>>>> The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
> >>>> Unbelievable...... RTFM
> >>>>
> >>>> Lou
> >>> As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.
> >> You wrote nothing. You wrecked your frame because of your stupidity. Luckily it is only a 200 dollar frame...
> >>
> >> Lou
> >
> > https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bop/d/san-francisco-ridley-isp-helium-high/7662857551.html
> >
> > Look at the attachment of THAT front derailleur. Are you calling that Helium frame wrecked? No wonder the world was designed and built by America. While we were building the Golden Gare Bridge you were building windmills to pump water off of your farms.
> Uh, Nederlands agriculture produces more per acre than US.
> By quite a bit. You don't want to tell them about
> agriculture - they will tell you!
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Explain that to the King family who have 825,000 acres of ONE farm.

On 10/1/2023 10:29 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 8:14:56 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/1/2023 10:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:53:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 4:35:14 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
>>>>>>>>>> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>>>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
>>>>>>>> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>> The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
>>>>>> Unbelievable...... RTFM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>> As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.
>>>> You wrote nothing. You wrecked your frame because of your stupidity. Luckily it is only a 200 dollar frame...
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bop/d/san-francisco-ridley-isp-helium-high/7662857551.html
>>>
>>> Look at the attachment of THAT front derailleur. Are you calling that Helium frame wrecked? No wonder the world was designed and built by America. While we were building the Golden Gare Bridge you were building windmills to pump water off of your farms.
>> Uh, Nederlands agriculture produces more per acre than US.
>> By quite a bit. You don't want to tell them about
>> agriculture - they will tell you!

> Explain that to the King family who have 825,000 acres of ONE farm.

Successful operation on relatively crappy land; low density
cattle grazing. Nederlands is per acre much more productive.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 5:12:57 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:53:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 4:35:14 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> > > > > > > > That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Andrew Muzi
> > > > > > > > a...@yellowjersey.org
> > > > > > > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > > > > > That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
> > > > > > Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lou
> > > > > The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
> > > > Unbelievable...... RTFM
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.
> > You wrote nothing. You wrecked your frame because of your stupidity. Luckily it is only a 200 dollar frame...
> >
> > Lou
> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bop/d/san-francisco-ridley-isp-helium-high/7662857551.html
>
> Look at the attachment of THAT front derailleur. Are you calling that Helium frame wrecked? No wonder the world was designed and built by America. While we were building the Golden Gare Bridge you were building windmills to pump water off of your farms.

Oh, you didn't pay attention in history class then.

Lou

On 10/1/2023 11:24 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 5:12:57 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:53:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 4:35:14 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
>>>>>>>>> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
>>>>>>> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>> The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
>>>>> Unbelievable...... RTFM
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>> As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.
>>> You wrote nothing. You wrecked your frame because of your stupidity. Luckily it is only a 200 dollar frame...
>>>
>>> Lou
>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bop/d/san-francisco-ridley-isp-helium-high/7662857551.html
>>
>> Look at the attachment of THAT front derailleur. Are you calling that Helium frame wrecked? No wonder the world was designed and built by America. While we were building the Golden Gare Bridge you were building windmills to pump water off of your farms.
>
>
> Oh, you didn't pay attention in history class then.
>
> Lou

+1

https://www.amusingplanet.com/2014/04/the-netherlands-impressive-storm-surge.html

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/An-overview-of-the-Dutch-Wadden-Sea-White-lines-indicate-the-partitioning-of-the_fig1_333164649

https://www.aerostockphoto.com/media/9b61b7d2-d301-46a2-98bf-743678279286-the-oosterschelde-storm-surge-barrier-eastern-scheldt-dam-and

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/481744491366252781/

p.s. prior history:
https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/en/water/water-safety/the-flood-of-1953
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 10/1/2023 10:37 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Sorry to be repetitive but good practice, when installing a new or 'new
> to you' part, is to open the box and read the directions fully and
> carefully first.  Saves an immense amount of time and trouble.

Tom is one of those here who are absolutely devoted to their ignorance.

--
- Frank Krygowski