On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 9:38:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/1/2023 11:24 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 5:12:57 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:53:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 4:35:14 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> >>>>>>>>> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
> >>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>>>>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
> >>>>>>> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>> The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
> >>>>> Unbelievable...... RTFM
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lou
> >>>> As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.
> >>> You wrote nothing. You wrecked your frame because of your stupidity. Luckily it is only a 200 dollar frame...
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bop/d/san-francisco-ridley-isp-helium-high/7662857551.html
> >>
> >> Look at the attachment of THAT front derailleur. Are you calling that Helium frame wrecked? No wonder the world was designed and built by America.. While we were building the Golden Gare Bridge you were building windmills to pump water off of your farms.
> >
> >
> > Oh, you didn't pay attention in history class then.
> >
> > Lou
> +1
>
> https://www.amusingplanet.com/2014/04/the-netherlands-impressive-storm-surge.html
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/An-overview-of-the-Dutch-Wadden-Sea-White-lines-indicate-the-partitioning-of-the_fig1_333164649
>
> https://www.aerostockphoto.com/media/9b61b7d2-d301-46a2-98bf-743678279286-the-oosterschelde-storm-surge-barrier-eastern-scheldt-dam-and
>
> https://www.pinterest.com/pin/481744491366252781/
>
> p.s. prior history:
> https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/en/water/water-safety/the-flood-of-1953
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

The lessons of history destroying land and killing people led to some substantial engineering projects in the LATE 20th Century.

On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 9:24:30 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 5:12:57 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:53:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 4:35:14 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> > > > > > > > > That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Andrew Muzi
> > > > > > > > > a...@yellowjersey.org
> > > > > > > > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > > > > > > That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
> > > > > > > Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
> > > > > Unbelievable...... RTFM
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.
> > > You wrote nothing. You wrecked your frame because of your stupidity. Luckily it is only a 200 dollar frame...
> > >
> > > Lou
> > https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bop/d/san-francisco-ridley-isp-helium-high/7662857551.html
> >
> > Look at the attachment of THAT front derailleur. Are you calling that Helium frame wrecked? No wonder the world was designed and built by America. While we were building the Golden Gare Bridge you were building windmills to pump water off of your farms.
> Oh, you didn't pay attention in history class then.
>
> Lou

I'm pulling your leg Lou. But at least I have the guts to say when I make a mistake. Do you?

On 10/1/2023 2:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 9:38:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/1/2023 11:24 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 5:12:57 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:53:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 4:35:14 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
>>>>>>>>>>> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>>>>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
>>>>>>>>> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>> The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
>>>>>>> Unbelievable...... RTFM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>> As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.
>>>>> You wrote nothing. You wrecked your frame because of your stupidity. Luckily it is only a 200 dollar frame...
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bop/d/san-francisco-ridley-isp-helium-high/7662857551.html
>>>>
>>>> Look at the attachment of THAT front derailleur. Are you calling that Helium frame wrecked? No wonder the world was designed and built by America. While we were building the Golden Gare Bridge you were building windmills to pump water off of your farms.
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, you didn't pay attention in history class then.
>>>
>>> Lou
>> +1
>>
>> https://www.amusingplanet.com/2014/04/the-netherlands-impressive-storm-surge.html
>>
>> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/An-overview-of-the-Dutch-Wadden-Sea-White-lines-indicate-the-partitioning-of-the_fig1_333164649
>>
>> https://www.aerostockphoto.com/media/9b61b7d2-d301-46a2-98bf-743678279286-the-oosterschelde-storm-surge-barrier-eastern-scheldt-dam-and
>>
>> https://www.pinterest.com/pin/481744491366252781/
>>
>> p.s. prior history:
>> https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/en/water/water-safety/the-flood-of-1953
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> The lessons of history destroying land and killing people led to some substantial engineering projects in the LATE 20th Century.

What the hell does that mean? Nederlands _makes_ land!
And kill who exactly?
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 1:00:19 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/1/2023 2:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 9:38:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 10/1/2023 11:24 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 5:12:57 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:53:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 4:35:14 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
> >>>>>>>>>>> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>>>>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
> >>>>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>>>>>>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
> >>>>>>>>> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>>>> The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
> >>>>>>> Unbelievable...... RTFM
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>> As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.
> >>>>> You wrote nothing. You wrecked your frame because of your stupidity.. Luckily it is only a 200 dollar frame...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lou
> >>>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bop/d/san-francisco-ridley-isp-helium-high/7662857551.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Look at the attachment of THAT front derailleur. Are you calling that Helium frame wrecked? No wonder the world was designed and built by America. While we were building the Golden Gare Bridge you were building windmills to pump water off of your farms.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Oh, you didn't pay attention in history class then.
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >> +1
> >>
> >> https://www.amusingplanet.com/2014/04/the-netherlands-impressive-storm-surge.html
> >>
> >> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/An-overview-of-the-Dutch-Wadden-Sea-White-lines-indicate-the-partitioning-of-the_fig1_333164649
> >>
> >> https://www.aerostockphoto.com/media/9b61b7d2-d301-46a2-98bf-743678279286-the-oosterschelde-storm-surge-barrier-eastern-scheldt-dam-and
> >>
> >> https://www.pinterest.com/pin/481744491366252781/
> >>
> >> p.s. prior history:
> >> https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/en/water/water-safety/the-flood-of-1953
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> a...@yellowjersey.org
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > The lessons of history destroying land and killing people led to some substantial engineering projects in the LATE 20th Century.
> What the hell does that mean? Nederlands _makes_ land!
> And kill who exactly?
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andrew - the FLOODS in Holland of the 1950's killed thousands of Dutch and brought about the large flood reduction projects that weren't finished until the 21st Century.

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 10:14:50 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/1/2023 10:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:53:32?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 4:35:14?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52?PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57?PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
>>>>>>>>> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
>>>>>>> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>> The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
>>>>> Unbelievable...... RTFM
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>> As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.
>>> You wrote nothing. You wrecked your frame because of your stupidity. Luckily it is only a 200 dollar frame...
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bop/d/san-francisco-ridley-isp-helium-high/7662857551.html
>>
>> Look at the attachment of THAT front derailleur. Are you calling that Helium frame wrecked? No wonder the world was designed and built by America. While we were building the Golden Gare Bridge you were building windmills to pump water off of your farms.
>
>
>Uh, Nederlands agriculture produces more per acre than US.
>By quite a bit. You don't want to tell them about
>agriculture - they will tell you!

And, as for bridges, The Danyang-Kunshan Grand Bridge is officially
the longest bridge in the world. It stretches out for no less than
102.4 miles (164.8 kilometres) (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 07:35:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52?PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57?PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > > > > On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
>> > > > > That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
>> > > > > --
>> > > > > Andrew Muzi
>> > > > > a...@yellowjersey.org
>> > > > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>> > > > That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
>> > > Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
>> > >
>> > > Lou
>> > The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
>> Unbelievable...... RTFM
>>
>> Lou
>
>As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.

If you "wrote the manual" it must have been a pretty poor manual as
you couldn't install a bottom bracket and had to have help from a
lawyer, you couldn't install a seat post, you couldn't install handle
bars, you didn't understand how a front derailer worked, and
undoubtedly a multitude of other things.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 15:00:09 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/1/2023 2:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 9:38:53?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 10/1/2023 11:24 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 5:12:57?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:53:32?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 4:35:14?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 3:44:52?PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 11:48:19?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:48:31?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 5:10:56?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 5:16:57?PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/27/2023 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I finally got the bracket off. I need to push the rivets through if possible or carefully file them flush. None of it makes any engineering sense to me. The carbon fiber frame had a cast aluminum bracket on that was not sealed to the frame so wet conditions would seep dirty water into the space between the bracket and the frame. Now here is the kicker - the bracket was riveted on using steel rivets! Electralysis anyone?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I couldn't use el cheapo drills since the rivets were so hard. So I finally dug around and found some good high speed drills. I tried using the Dremel but it had almost no effect on steel rivets. But the high speed drill made fairly short work of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ends of the rivets are sticking up and will have to be either punched in where they will fall out the bottom of the BB90 or carefully filed flat so that they don't interfere with the new clamp. I have no idea of what the inside looks like and if the resin wasn't completely dry when the rivets were installed they may be stuck tight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> All in all I would be extremely cautious of European frames which are made by the lowest Chinese bidder. This had the braze-on bracket completely misaligned and electalysis begging to occur. Steel and Carbon Fiber are fairly non-reactive but add in a large piece of aluminum and an entry way for an electrolyte and trouble is brewing.
>>>>>>>>>>>> That jointing technique is standard worldwide.
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>>>>>> That joining technique is an open invitation to failure from electralysis
>>>>>>>>>> Like Andrew said reality shows the opposite. On my frames no problem at all.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>> The problem I had with the front derailleur braze on was that when I tightened it up it went completely out of alignment. So when I tried to fit a Shimano braze-on converter the converter would NOT fit on. I cut the braze-on fitting off and I should not have done that. There is a SCREW that is placed on the derailleur that is used to brace the front derailleur against braze-on plate and it was screwed all of the way in instead all of the way out. This is what caused the twisting motion and the misalignment. It never occurred to me to look on the back side of the Dura Ace front derailleur to see if it was assembled correctly. It looked to me as if the derailleur was turning as I tightened it into the fixed grove of the braze-on.
>>>>>>>> Unbelievable...... RTFM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>> As we all know the very first thing you do when you're about to design something is RTFM. That has been your entire life. Too bad that I probably wrote the manual.
>>>>>> You wrote nothing. You wrecked your frame because of your stupidity. Luckily it is only a 200 dollar frame...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bop/d/san-francisco-ridley-isp-helium-high/7662857551.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Look at the attachment of THAT front derailleur. Are you calling that Helium frame wrecked? No wonder the world was designed and built by America. While we were building the Golden Gare Bridge you were building windmills to pump water off of your farms.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh, you didn't pay attention in history class then.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>> +1
>>>
>>> https://www.amusingplanet.com/2014/04/the-netherlands-impressive-storm-surge.html
>>>
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/An-overview-of-the-Dutch-Wadden-Sea-White-lines-indicate-the-partitioning-of-the_fig1_333164649
>>>
>>> https://www.aerostockphoto.com/media/9b61b7d2-d301-46a2-98bf-743678279286-the-oosterschelde-storm-surge-barrier-eastern-scheldt-dam-and
>>>
>>> https://www.pinterest.com/pin/481744491366252781/
>>>
>>> p.s. prior history:
>>> https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/en/water/water-safety/the-flood-of-1953
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
>> The lessons of history destroying land and killing people led to some substantial engineering projects in the LATE 20th Century.
>
>What the hell does that mean? Nederlands _makes_ land!
>And kill who exactly?

Come now, you are talking to Tommy. Didn't you know that the earth is
flat and the moon is blue cheese?
--
Cheers,

John B.