On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>
>
> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
>
> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>
> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!

Less fear and more practice are good things.

Many years ago, when I had much less money, I re-roofed my house with
the help of my son. Another strong friend did his best to help by
carrying shingles up the ladder to the gutter level, but he was too
afraid of heights to go higher. He later began working as a carpenter.
After some time, he fearlessly walked the top 2x4 plate of stud walls.

And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
passing lane motorists freely use.

OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 13:36:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>
>>
>> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
>>
>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>
>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>
>Less fear and more practice are good things.
>
>Many years ago, when I had much less money, I re-roofed my house with
>the help of my son. Another strong friend did his best to help by
>carrying shingles up the ladder to the gutter level, but he was too
>afraid of heights to go higher. He later began working as a carpenter.
>After some time, he fearlessly walked the top 2x4 plate of stud walls.
>
>And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>passing lane motorists freely use.
>
>OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.

Krygowski can't stand it if people reject his advice and do what they
want to do instead of what he wants them to do.

"....people with narcissistic personality disorder have trouble
handling anything they view as criticism. They can:

Become impatient or angry when they don't receive special recognition
or treatment.

Have major problems interacting with others and easily feel slighted.

React with rage or contempt and try to belittle other people to
make themselves appear superior.

Have difficulty managing their emotions and behavior.

Experience major problems dealing with stress and adapting to change.

Withdraw from or avoid situations in which they might fail.

Feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection.

Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, humiliation and fear of
being
exposed as a failure.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

On Thursday, October 5, 2023 at 2:30:31 PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>
>
> Krygowski can't stand it if people reject his advice and do what they
> want to do instead of what he wants them to do.

Dumbass can't stand it that the only people in this forum not ignoring his demands to ostracize Frank are kunich and the shitstain.

> "....people with narcissistic personality disorder have trouble
> handling anything they view as criticism. They can:
>
> Become impatient or angry when they don't receive special recognition
> or treatment.

Like when floriduh dumbass replies to Frank "LOOK AT ME DADDY LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEE!!!!!"

>
> Have major problems interacting with others and easily feel slighted.

Like when floriduh dumbass claims not to need friends an be an introvert when it really just a shallow rationalization for the fact that no one can stand you in their presence.

>
> React with rage or contempt and try to belittle other people to
> make themselves appear superior.
> Have difficulty managing their emotions and behavior.
> Experience major problems dealing with stress and adapting to change.

Like when floriduh dumbass butts into a conversation he's not part of for the sole purpose of insulting frank.
> Withdraw from or avoid situations in which they might fail.

Like when floriduh dumbass claims not want to participate in group activities claiming to be an introvert when it's really just a shallow rationalization for the fact that no one can stand you in their presence.

> Feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection.

If there was ever a moody little bitch in this forum.....dumbass

>
> Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, humiliation and fear of
> being
> exposed as a failure.

Like when floriduh dumbass doesn't share any personal life details claims to be a 'private person' from being an introvert when it's really just a shallow rationalization for the fact his life is vapid, empty, and he attempts to fill the void by kunichesque fantasies.

> https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

Alternative entry- See Catrike on rec.bicycles.tech

Yes, dumbass, Narcissus looked at his reflection and liked what he saw too.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>
>>
>> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
>>
>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>
>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>
> Less fear and more practice are good things.

As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don’t push it as
well absolute speed or time down doesn’t bother me and the risks if it goes
wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.

Similarly some MTB stuff I’m not keen on such as big jumps and so on. While
I have done such stuff, ultimately it’s not my style I like more natural or
more likely old industrial stuff to ride up so I’m less likely to practice
or push my luck if I don’t enjoy it.
>
> Many years ago, when I had much less money, I re-roofed my house with
> the help of my son. Another strong friend did his best to help by
> carrying shingles up the ladder to the gutter level, but he was too
> afraid of heights to go higher. He later began working as a carpenter.
> After some time, he fearlessly walked the top 2x4 plate of stud walls.
>
> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
> passing lane motorists freely use.
>
> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>
For that personally for myself it’s more preference if x multiple lane road
works within the route? And why I’m riding ie for pleasure or transport.

Though very few such roads in london that also make sense to ride on, ie
tend to be bypasses for car so aren’t generally worth riding on anyway, as
they are going the long way around and so on.

Roger Merriman

On Thursday, October 5, 2023 at 9:51:28 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 10/5/2023 3:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:43:25 PM UTC+2, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >>> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 4:55:00 PM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=auqPIfVSUOM
> >>>>
> >>>> Lou
> >>> Lou that was a cook video and I don't think I could take those turns at
> >>> 25mph he was going through in the 40's/
> >>> Deacon mark
> >>
> >> Marc the same laws of physics apply for both of you.
> >
> > The laws of physics may be the same, but we each have our own tolerance
> > for risk, not to mention level of skill.
> >
> > I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
> > high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
> >
> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
>
> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>
> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>
> Roger Merriman

Remember that most racers are under 30 and its easy to be brave when you don't realize the consequences.

On Thursday, October 5, 2023 at 1:44:34 PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
> >>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
> >> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
> >>
> >> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
> >>
> >> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
> >
> > Less fear and more practice are good things.
> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don’t push it as
> well absolute speed or time down doesn’t bother me and the risks if it goes
> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
>
> Similarly some MTB stuff I’m not keen on such as big jumps and so on. While
> I have done such stuff, ultimately it’s not my style I like more natural or
> more likely old industrial stuff to ride up so I’m less likely to practice
> or push my luck if I don’t enjoy it.
> >
> > Many years ago, when I had much less money, I re-roofed my house with
> > the help of my son. Another strong friend did his best to help by
> > carrying shingles up the ladder to the gutter level, but he was too
> > afraid of heights to go higher. He later began working as a carpenter.
> > After some time, he fearlessly walked the top 2x4 plate of stud walls.
> >
> > And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
> > really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
> > experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
> > passing lane motorists freely use.
> >
> > OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
> > afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
> >
> For that personally for myself it’s more preference if x multiple lane road
> works within the route? And why I’m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>
> Though very few such roads in london that also make sense to ride on, ie
> tend to be bypasses for car so aren’t generally worth riding on anyway, as
> they are going the long way around and so on.
>
> Roger Merriman

On my ride today with a 6% descent I was going to see how fast I could go on a descent that shallow. I got up just over 30 before the steeper part and there was some sort of road work and it was squeezed down to on lane with a flagman. I managed to slow it down and just get through the pinch before the reverse traffic was allowed. Without any of that I could have easily made 45 mph so high speed like I was talking about on 12% grades with much longer runouts is NOT unexpected.

On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
>>>
>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>
>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>
>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>
> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don’t push it as
> well absolute speed or time down doesn’t bother me and the risks if it goes
> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.

Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
personal choice.

>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>
>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>>
> For that personally for myself it’s more preference if x multiple lane road
> works within the route? And why I’m riding ie for pleasure or transport.

I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
credit union, as one example.

If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 21:11:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
>>>>
>>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>>
>>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>>
>>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>>
>> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
>> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don’t push it as
>> well absolute speed or time down doesn’t bother me and the risks if it goes
>> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
>
>Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
>want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
>personal choice.
>
>>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>>
>>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.

Why does it make you sad when other people do what they want to do
instead of what you want them to do?

>> For that personally for myself it’s more preference if x multiple lane road
>> works within the route? And why I’m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>
>I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>credit union, as one example.
>
>If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.

Many people have a pleasurable riding experience without doing what
you want them to do, Dummy.

--

Yes, little fella, I ride a Catrike, always alone, mostly on bike
trails, carrying a gun, and never without attaching my feet to the
pedals. Nowdays,I always truck my bike to where I start my ride. I
tried and found riding a bike to the grocery store and other routine
trips to be boring. I hope I am never reduced to riding like that.
I am arrogantly proud of my bicycle rides and all my other
accomplishments. As an introvert, I also value my solitude,
where I'm free to tune into my own inner monologue.

On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 3:16:25 AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 21:11:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
> >>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
> >>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
> >>>>
> >>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
> >>>>
> >>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
> >>>
> >>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
> >>
> >> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
> >> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don’t push it as
> >> well absolute speed or time down doesn’t bother me and the risks if it goes
> >> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
> >
> >Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
> >want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
> >personal choice.
> >
> >>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
> >>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
> >>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
> >>> passing lane motorists freely use.
> >>>
> >>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
> >>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
> Why does it make you sad when other people do what they want to do
> instead of what you want them to do?
> >> For that personally for myself it’s more preference if x multiple lane road
> >> works within the route? And why I’m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
> >
> >I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
> >pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
> >one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
> >credit union, as one example.
> >
> >If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
> >roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
> Many people have a pleasurable riding experience without doing what
> you want them to do, Dummy.
>
>
> --
>
> Yes, little fella, I ride a Catrike, always alone, mostly on bike
> trails, carrying a gun, and never without attaching my feet to the
> pedals. Nowdays,I always truck my bike to where I start my ride. I
> tried and found riding a bike to the grocery store and other routine
> trips to be boring. I hope I am never reduced to riding like that.
> I am arrogantly proud of my bicycle rides and all my other
> accomplishments. As an introvert, I also value my solitude,
> where I'm free to tune into my own inner monologue.

Frank is used to having the power of the grade over students and hence being able to force them to comply with his wishes. Most of them no doubt were as foolish as the things he publishes here. Actually I'm surprised that some student or another didn't kick his stupid face in. But in leu of that he STILL believes himself an expert in how others should live.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
>>>>
>>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>>
>>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>>
>>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>>
>> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
>> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don’t push it as
>> well absolute speed or time down doesn’t bother me and the risks if it goes
>> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
>
> Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
> want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
> personal choice.
>
>>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>>
>>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>>>
Does depend on location certainly london has enough cycle infrastructure to
get about on, though not wholly and differing degrees of segregation and
location ie some infrastructure isn’t road as such but being able to pass
through stuff ie cut throughs or Parks for example.

But stuff like the London Embankment where certainly Westminster to the
Tower was a dual carriageway ie 4 lane road, with in places some useless
painted lanes, was the preserve of fast roadie types, which now with the
wide (though arguably could be wider still) cycleway it is more accessible
to more people even see wee kids, it’s probably a few seconds slower as
though does have less junctions overall it also doesn’t have the draft
effect or encouragement to keep up with traffic.

I’d say though that 4 or 6 lane roads are more dubious in suburban or
beyond areas, particularly if the speed and traffic is high, and is rushed.
My old cycleway is one such place it runs parallel to the 4 lane road speed
limit is nominally 40mph but it connects to a number of major roads and
Heathrow so traffic essentially doesn’t dumb shit at a fairly regular
intervals, so I’ve no desire to ride there, to be honest I don’t like
driving it either as well it’s just a tedious stop/start type of road.

>> For that personally for myself it’s more preference if x multiple lane road
>> works within the route? And why I’m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>
> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
> credit union, as one example.
>
> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>
Roger Merriman

On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 21:07:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
>>>>>
>>>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>>>
>>>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>>>
>>>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>>>
>>> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
>>> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don’t push it as
>>> well absolute speed or time down doesn’t bother me and the risks if it goes
>>> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
>>
>> Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
>> want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
>> personal choice.
>>
>>>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>>>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>>>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>>>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>>>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>>>>
>Does depend on location certainly london has enough cycle infrastructure to
>get about on, though not wholly and differing degrees of segregation and
>location ie some infrastructure isn’t road as such but being able to pass
>through stuff ie cut throughs or Parks for example.
>
>But stuff like the London Embankment where certainly Westminster to the
>Tower was a dual carriageway ie 4 lane road, with in places some useless
>painted lanes, was the preserve of fast roadie types, which now with the
>wide (though arguably could be wider still) cycleway it is more accessible
>to more people even see wee kids, it’s probably a few seconds slower as
>though does have less junctions overall it also doesn’t have the draft
>effect or encouragement to keep up with traffic.
>
>I’d say though that 4 or 6 lane roads are more dubious in suburban or
>beyond areas, particularly if the speed and traffic is high, and is rushed.
>My old cycleway is one such place it runs parallel to the 4 lane road speed
>limit is nominally 40mph but it connects to a number of major roads and
>Heathrow so traffic essentially doesn’t dumb shit at a fairly regular
>intervals, so I’ve no desire to ride there, to be honest I don’t like
>driving it either as well it’s just a tedious stop/start type of road.

Stop signs and lights is another reason I dislike riding suburban and
urban roads, and I don't even have to unclip when I stop. Another
reason, of course, is having to watch out for vehicles pulling out of
driveways and strip malls.

I can't imagine why some people are so enthralled with that kind of
bike riding.

>>> For that personally for myself it’s more preference if x multiple lane road
>>> works within the route? And why I’m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>>
>> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>> credit union, as one example.
>>
>> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>>
>Roger Merriman
>
>

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 21:07:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>>>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>>>>
>>>>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>>>>
>>>> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
>>>> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don’t push it as
>>>> well absolute speed or time down doesn’t bother me and the risks if it goes
>>>> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
>>>
>>> Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
>>> want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
>>> personal choice.
>>>
>>>>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>>>>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>>>>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>>>>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>>>>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>>>>>
>> Does depend on location certainly london has enough cycle infrastructure to
>> get about on, though not wholly and differing degrees of segregation and
>> location ie some infrastructure isn’t road as such but being able to pass
>> through stuff ie cut throughs or Parks for example.
>>
>> But stuff like the London Embankment where certainly Westminster to the
>> Tower was a dual carriageway ie 4 lane road, with in places some useless
>> painted lanes, was the preserve of fast roadie types, which now with the
>> wide (though arguably could be wider still) cycleway it is more accessible
>> to more people even see wee kids, it’s probably a few seconds slower as
>> though does have less junctions overall it also doesn’t have the draft
>> effect or encouragement to keep up with traffic.
>>
>> I’d say though that 4 or 6 lane roads are more dubious in suburban or
>> beyond areas, particularly if the speed and traffic is high, and is rushed.
>> My old cycleway is one such place it runs parallel to the 4 lane road speed
>> limit is nominally 40mph but it connects to a number of major roads and
>> Heathrow so traffic essentially doesn’t dumb shit at a fairly regular
>> intervals, so I’ve no desire to ride there, to be honest I don’t like
>> driving it either as well it’s just a tedious stop/start type of road.
>
> Stop signs and lights is another reason I dislike riding suburban and
> urban roads, and I don't even have to unclip when I stop. Another
> reason, of course, is having to watch out for vehicles pulling out of
> driveways and strip malls.
>
> I can't imagine why some people are so enthralled with that kind of
> bike riding.
>
>
It’s even worse on foot where you can have multiple stages just to cross
the road and will probably have to wait for all of them!

I do occasionally ride into central london though generally avoid the
clogged stop start bits, in fairness I don’t think Frank is claiming they
are particularly fun, more that they can be used. Which is where we agree.
Where we don’t is belief that with training everyone can and could use such
roads, where as I while I do use them get that not everyone is going to.

>>>> For that personally for myself it’s more preference if x multiple lane road
>>>> works within the route? And why I’m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>>>
>>> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>>> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>>> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>>> credit union, as one example.
>>>
>>> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>>> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>>
>
Roger Merriman

On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 09:58:55 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 21:07:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>>>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I?m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>>>>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn?t particularly troublesome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>>>>>
>>>>> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
>>>>> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don?t push it as
>>>>> well absolute speed or time down doesn?t bother me and the risks if it goes
>>>>> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
>>>>
>>>> Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
>>>> want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
>>>> personal choice.
>>>>
>>>>>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>>>>>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>>>>>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>>>>>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>>>>>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>>>>>>
>>> Does depend on location certainly london has enough cycle infrastructure to
>>> get about on, though not wholly and differing degrees of segregation and
>>> location ie some infrastructure isn?t road as such but being able to pass
>>> through stuff ie cut throughs or Parks for example.
>>>
>>> But stuff like the London Embankment where certainly Westminster to the
>>> Tower was a dual carriageway ie 4 lane road, with in places some useless
>>> painted lanes, was the preserve of fast roadie types, which now with the
>>> wide (though arguably could be wider still) cycleway it is more accessible
>>> to more people even see wee kids, it?s probably a few seconds slower as
>>> though does have less junctions overall it also doesn?t have the draft
>>> effect or encouragement to keep up with traffic.
>>>
>>> I?d say though that 4 or 6 lane roads are more dubious in suburban or
>>> beyond areas, particularly if the speed and traffic is high, and is rushed.
>>> My old cycleway is one such place it runs parallel to the 4 lane road speed
>>> limit is nominally 40mph but it connects to a number of major roads and
>>> Heathrow so traffic essentially doesn?t dumb shit at a fairly regular
>>> intervals, so I?ve no desire to ride there, to be honest I don?t like
>>> driving it either as well it?s just a tedious stop/start type of road.
>>
>> Stop signs and lights is another reason I dislike riding suburban and
>> urban roads, and I don't even have to unclip when I stop. Another
>> reason, of course, is having to watch out for vehicles pulling out of
>> driveways and strip malls.
>>
>> I can't imagine why some people are so enthralled with that kind of
>> bike riding.
>>
>>
>It’s even worse on foot where you can have multiple stages just to cross
>the road and will probably have to wait for all of them!
>
>I do occasionally ride into central london though generally avoid the
>clogged stop start bits, in fairness I don’t think Frank is claiming they
>are particularly fun, more that they can be used.

Actually, he proclaims, above, that it's "limiting" to not ride that
way and that makes him sad. And below. he says that riding on roads
and highways "many more opportunities for pleasurable riding
experiences."

> Which is where we agree.

Indeed, I haven't seen anyone denying that most roads can be used by
bicyclists.

>Where we don’t is belief that with training everyone can and could use such
>roads, where as I while I do use them get that not everyone is going to.

I rode a couple of miles on public roads just yesterday to get to and
from my favorite bike trail. My usual access to that trail is
temporarily closed.

>>>>> For that personally for myself it?s more preference if x multiple lane road
>>>>> works within the route? And why I?m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>>>>
>>>> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>>>> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>>>> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>>>> credit union, as one example.
>>>>
>>>> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>>>> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>>
>>
>Roger Merriman
>
>

It appears to me that Krygowski has disdain for people who use cars
and trucks for transportation and that he enjoys waving his ass in
their faces and inhibiting their travel.

Everyone gets their enjoyment in their own way. I enjoy riding in
solitariness.

On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 07:14:41 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 09:58:55 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 21:07:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>>>>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I?m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>>>>>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn?t particularly troublesome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
>>>>>> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don?t push it as
>>>>>> well absolute speed or time down doesn?t bother me and the risks if it goes
>>>>>> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
>>>>> want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
>>>>> personal choice.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>>>>>>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>>>>>>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>>>>>>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>>>>>>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>>>>>>>
>>>> Does depend on location certainly london has enough cycle infrastructure to
>>>> get about on, though not wholly and differing degrees of segregation and
>>>> location ie some infrastructure isn?t road as such but being able to pass
>>>> through stuff ie cut throughs or Parks for example.
>>>>
>>>> But stuff like the London Embankment where certainly Westminster to the
>>>> Tower was a dual carriageway ie 4 lane road, with in places some useless
>>>> painted lanes, was the preserve of fast roadie types, which now with the
>>>> wide (though arguably could be wider still) cycleway it is more accessible
>>>> to more people even see wee kids, it?s probably a few seconds slower as
>>>> though does have less junctions overall it also doesn?t have the draft
>>>> effect or encouragement to keep up with traffic.
>>>>
>>>> I?d say though that 4 or 6 lane roads are more dubious in suburban or
>>>> beyond areas, particularly if the speed and traffic is high, and is rushed.
>>>> My old cycleway is one such place it runs parallel to the 4 lane road speed
>>>> limit is nominally 40mph but it connects to a number of major roads and
>>>> Heathrow so traffic essentially doesn?t dumb shit at a fairly regular
>>>> intervals, so I?ve no desire to ride there, to be honest I don?t like
>>>> driving it either as well it?s just a tedious stop/start type of road.
>>>
>>> Stop signs and lights is another reason I dislike riding suburban and
>>> urban roads, and I don't even have to unclip when I stop. Another
>>> reason, of course, is having to watch out for vehicles pulling out of
>>> driveways and strip malls.
>>>
>>> I can't imagine why some people are so enthralled with that kind of
>>> bike riding.
>>>
>>>
>>It’s even worse on foot where you can have multiple stages just to cross
>>the road and will probably have to wait for all of them!
>>
>>I do occasionally ride into central london though generally avoid the
>>clogged stop start bits, in fairness I don’t think Frank is claiming they
>>are particularly fun, more that they can be used.
>
>Actually, he proclaims, above, that it's "limiting" to not ride that
>way and that makes him sad. And below. he says that riding on roads
>and highways "many more opportunities for pleasurable riding
>experiences."
>
>> Which is where we agree.
>
>Indeed, I haven't seen anyone denying that most roads can be used by
>bicyclists.
>
>>Where we don’t is belief that with training everyone can and could use such
>>roads, where as I while I do use them get that not everyone is going to.
>
>I rode a couple of miles on public roads just yesterday to get to and
>from my favorite bike trail. My usual access to that trail is
>temporarily closed.
>
>>>>>> For that personally for myself it?s more preference if x multiple lane road
>>>>>> works within the route? And why I?m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>>>>> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>>>>> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>>>>> credit union, as one example.
>>>>>
>>>>> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>>>>> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>Roger Merriman
>>
>>
>
>It appears to me that Krygowski has disdain for people who use cars
>and trucks for transportation and that he enjoys waving his ass in
>their faces and inhibiting their travel.
>
Nope. Shortly after he bought his new electric car he was whining
about how could he carry two bikes as there wasn't any room in his new
car for them.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 09:58:55 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 21:07:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>>>>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I?m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>>>>>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn?t particularly troublesome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
>>>>>> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don?t push it as
>>>>>> well absolute speed or time down doesn?t bother me and the risks if it goes
>>>>>> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
>>>>> want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
>>>>> personal choice.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>>>>>>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>>>>>>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>>>>>>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>>>>>>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>>>>>>>
>>>> Does depend on location certainly london has enough cycle infrastructure to
>>>> get about on, though not wholly and differing degrees of segregation and
>>>> location ie some infrastructure isn?t road as such but being able to pass
>>>> through stuff ie cut throughs or Parks for example.
>>>>
>>>> But stuff like the London Embankment where certainly Westminster to the
>>>> Tower was a dual carriageway ie 4 lane road, with in places some useless
>>>> painted lanes, was the preserve of fast roadie types, which now with the
>>>> wide (though arguably could be wider still) cycleway it is more accessible
>>>> to more people even see wee kids, it?s probably a few seconds slower as
>>>> though does have less junctions overall it also doesn?t have the draft
>>>> effect or encouragement to keep up with traffic.
>>>>
>>>> I?d say though that 4 or 6 lane roads are more dubious in suburban or
>>>> beyond areas, particularly if the speed and traffic is high, and is rushed.
>>>> My old cycleway is one such place it runs parallel to the 4 lane road speed
>>>> limit is nominally 40mph but it connects to a number of major roads and
>>>> Heathrow so traffic essentially doesn?t dumb shit at a fairly regular
>>>> intervals, so I?ve no desire to ride there, to be honest I don?t like
>>>> driving it either as well it?s just a tedious stop/start type of road.
>>>
>>> Stop signs and lights is another reason I dislike riding suburban and
>>> urban roads, and I don't even have to unclip when I stop. Another
>>> reason, of course, is having to watch out for vehicles pulling out of
>>> driveways and strip malls.
>>>
>>> I can't imagine why some people are so enthralled with that kind of
>>> bike riding.
>>>
>>>
>> It’s even worse on foot where you can have multiple stages just to cross
>> the road and will probably have to wait for all of them!
>>
>> I do occasionally ride into central london though generally avoid the
>> clogged stop start bits, in fairness I don’t think Frank is claiming they
>> are particularly fun, more that they can be used.
>
> Actually, he proclaims, above, that it's "limiting" to not ride that
> way and that makes him sad. And below. he says that riding on roads
> and highways "many more opportunities for pleasurable riding
> experiences."

I took that to mean using such roads to well make a route ie used as isn’t
really another way than a pleasant road to cycle on.
>
>> Which is where we agree.
>
> Indeed, I haven't seen anyone denying that most roads can be used by
> bicyclists.
>
>> Where we don’t is belief that with training everyone can and could use such
>> roads, where as I while I do use them get that not everyone is going to.
>
> I rode a couple of miles on public roads just yesterday to get to and
> from my favorite bike trail. My usual access to that trail is
> temporarily closed.
>
>>>>>> For that personally for myself it?s more preference if x multiple lane road
>>>>>> works within the route? And why I?m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>>>>> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>>>>> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>>>>> credit union, as one example.
>>>>>
>>>>> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>>>>> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>>
>
> It appears to me that Krygowski has disdain for people who use cars
> and trucks for transportation and that he enjoys waving his ass in
> their faces and inhibiting their travel.
>
Don’t think so he is rather stuck in his ways and using cycling advocacy
that really has had its day.

> Everyone gets their enjoyment in their own way. I enjoy riding in
> solitariness.
>
I do both, solo is often more goal oriented than social.

Roger Merriman

On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 12:07:40 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 09:58:55 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 21:07:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>>>>>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I?m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>>>>>>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn?t particularly troublesome.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
>>>>>>> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don?t push it as
>>>>>>> well absolute speed or time down doesn?t bother me and the risks if it goes
>>>>>>> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
>>>>>> want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
>>>>>> personal choice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>>>>>>>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>>>>>>>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>>>>>>>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>>>>>>>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> Does depend on location certainly london has enough cycle infrastructure to
>>>>> get about on, though not wholly and differing degrees of segregation and
>>>>> location ie some infrastructure isn?t road as such but being able to pass
>>>>> through stuff ie cut throughs or Parks for example.
>>>>>
>>>>> But stuff like the London Embankment where certainly Westminster to the
>>>>> Tower was a dual carriageway ie 4 lane road, with in places some useless
>>>>> painted lanes, was the preserve of fast roadie types, which now with the
>>>>> wide (though arguably could be wider still) cycleway it is more accessible
>>>>> to more people even see wee kids, it?s probably a few seconds slower as
>>>>> though does have less junctions overall it also doesn?t have the draft
>>>>> effect or encouragement to keep up with traffic.
>>>>>
>>>>> I?d say though that 4 or 6 lane roads are more dubious in suburban or
>>>>> beyond areas, particularly if the speed and traffic is high, and is rushed.
>>>>> My old cycleway is one such place it runs parallel to the 4 lane road speed
>>>>> limit is nominally 40mph but it connects to a number of major roads and
>>>>> Heathrow so traffic essentially doesn?t dumb shit at a fairly regular
>>>>> intervals, so I?ve no desire to ride there, to be honest I don?t like
>>>>> driving it either as well it?s just a tedious stop/start type of road.
>>>>
>>>> Stop signs and lights is another reason I dislike riding suburban and
>>>> urban roads, and I don't even have to unclip when I stop. Another
>>>> reason, of course, is having to watch out for vehicles pulling out of
>>>> driveways and strip malls.
>>>>
>>>> I can't imagine why some people are so enthralled with that kind of
>>>> bike riding.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It?s even worse on foot where you can have multiple stages just to cross
>>> the road and will probably have to wait for all of them!
>>>
>>> I do occasionally ride into central london though generally avoid the
>>> clogged stop start bits, in fairness I don?t think Frank is claiming they
>>> are particularly fun, more that they can be used.
>>
>> Actually, he proclaims, above, that it's "limiting" to not ride that
>> way and that makes him sad. And below. he says that riding on roads
>> and highways "many more opportunities for pleasurable riding
>> experiences."
>
>I took that to mean using such roads to well make a route ie used as isn’t
>really another way than a pleasant road to cycle on.

Using a road for a route to somewhere implies bicycle riding as
transportation. I have a car and a truck for transportation, while my
bike riding is 100% hedonistic.

>>> Which is where we agree.
>>
>> Indeed, I haven't seen anyone denying that most roads can be used by
>> bicyclists.
>>
>>> Where we don?t is belief that with training everyone can and could use such
>>> roads, where as I while I do use them get that not everyone is going to.
>>
>> I rode a couple of miles on public roads just yesterday to get to and
>> from my favorite bike trail. My usual access to that trail is
>> temporarily closed.
>>
>>>>>>> For that personally for myself it?s more preference if x multiple lane road
>>>>>>> works within the route? And why I?m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>>>>>> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>>>>>> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>>>>>> credit union, as one example.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>>>>>> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It appears to me that Krygowski has disdain for people who use cars
>> and trucks for transportation and that he enjoys waving his ass in
>> their faces and inhibiting their travel.
>>
>Don’t think so he is rather stuck in his ways and using cycling advocacy
>that really has had its day.
>
>> Everyone gets their enjoyment in their own way. I enjoy riding in
>> solitariness.
>>
>I do both, solo is often more goal oriented than social.

I don't understand the concept of bicycle riding as a social
pursuance. I see it as the other way around, i.e. "something to do
while being social." Kind of like playing card games.

>Roger Merriman
>

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 12:07:40 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 09:58:55 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 21:07:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>>>>>>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I?m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>>>>>>>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn?t particularly troublesome.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
>>>>>>>> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don?t push it as
>>>>>>>> well absolute speed or time down doesn?t bother me and the risks if it goes
>>>>>>>> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
>>>>>>> want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
>>>>>>> personal choice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>>>>>>>>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>>>>>>>>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>>>>>>>>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>>>>>>>>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does depend on location certainly london has enough cycle infrastructure to
>>>>>> get about on, though not wholly and differing degrees of segregation and
>>>>>> location ie some infrastructure isn?t road as such but being able to pass
>>>>>> through stuff ie cut throughs or Parks for example.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But stuff like the London Embankment where certainly Westminster to the
>>>>>> Tower was a dual carriageway ie 4 lane road, with in places some useless
>>>>>> painted lanes, was the preserve of fast roadie types, which now with the
>>>>>> wide (though arguably could be wider still) cycleway it is more accessible
>>>>>> to more people even see wee kids, it?s probably a few seconds slower as
>>>>>> though does have less junctions overall it also doesn?t have the draft
>>>>>> effect or encouragement to keep up with traffic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I?d say though that 4 or 6 lane roads are more dubious in suburban or
>>>>>> beyond areas, particularly if the speed and traffic is high, and is rushed.
>>>>>> My old cycleway is one such place it runs parallel to the 4 lane road speed
>>>>>> limit is nominally 40mph but it connects to a number of major roads and
>>>>>> Heathrow so traffic essentially doesn?t dumb shit at a fairly regular
>>>>>> intervals, so I?ve no desire to ride there, to be honest I don?t like
>>>>>> driving it either as well it?s just a tedious stop/start type of road.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stop signs and lights is another reason I dislike riding suburban and
>>>>> urban roads, and I don't even have to unclip when I stop. Another
>>>>> reason, of course, is having to watch out for vehicles pulling out of
>>>>> driveways and strip malls.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't imagine why some people are so enthralled with that kind of
>>>>> bike riding.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> It?s even worse on foot where you can have multiple stages just to cross
>>>> the road and will probably have to wait for all of them!
>>>>
>>>> I do occasionally ride into central london though generally avoid the
>>>> clogged stop start bits, in fairness I don?t think Frank is claiming they
>>>> are particularly fun, more that they can be used.
>>>
>>> Actually, he proclaims, above, that it's "limiting" to not ride that
>>> way and that makes him sad. And below. he says that riding on roads
>>> and highways "many more opportunities for pleasurable riding
>>> experiences."
>>
>> I took that to mean using such roads to well make a route ie used as isn’t
>> really another way than a pleasant road to cycle on.
>
> Using a road for a route to somewhere implies bicycle riding as
> transportation. I have a car and a truck for transportation, while my
> bike riding is 100% hedonistic.
>
For me a bike absolutely can be transport, I can drive to work for example
but it’s a royal pain, for a number of reasons, and potentially unreliable
in terms of arrival time.

Equally due to my disability I’m limited in terms of driving and public
transport, so when I had something I wanted to visit some 20 miles into
london, car really isn’t a sane option, and unfortunately I can’t cope with
the tube, I don’t cope that well with busy public transport but tube is
just beyond what I can cope with now.

So I rode wasn’t particularly hard work, essentially parks and cycleways
for most part.

>>>> Which is where we agree.
>>>
>>> Indeed, I haven't seen anyone denying that most roads can be used by
>>> bicyclists.
>>>
>>>> Where we don?t is belief that with training everyone can and could use such
>>>> roads, where as I while I do use them get that not everyone is going to.
>>>
>>> I rode a couple of miles on public roads just yesterday to get to and
>>> from my favorite bike trail. My usual access to that trail is
>>> temporarily closed.
>>>
>>>>>>>> For that personally for myself it?s more preference if x multiple lane road
>>>>>>>> works within the route? And why I?m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>>>>>>> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>>>>>>> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>>>>>>> credit union, as one example.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>>>>>>> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It appears to me that Krygowski has disdain for people who use cars
>>> and trucks for transportation and that he enjoys waving his ass in
>>> their faces and inhibiting their travel.
>>>
>> Don’t think so he is rather stuck in his ways and using cycling advocacy
>> that really has had its day.
>>
>>> Everyone gets their enjoyment in their own way. I enjoy riding in
>>> solitariness.
>>>
>> I do both, solo is often more goal oriented than social.
>
> I don't understand the concept of bicycle riding as a social
> pursuance. I see it as the other way around, i.e. "something to do
> while being social." Kind of like playing card games.
>
Shared hobbies interests fairly common I certainly ride more alone than in
a group but I do both and am even in a bike club and all that.

On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 14:40:31 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 12:07:40 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 09:58:55 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 21:07:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>>>>>>>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I?m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>>>>>>>>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn?t particularly troublesome.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
>>>>>>>>> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don?t push it as
>>>>>>>>> well absolute speed or time down doesn?t bother me and the risks if it goes
>>>>>>>>> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
>>>>>>>> want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
>>>>>>>> personal choice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>>>>>>>>>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>>>>>>>>>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>>>>>>>>>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>>>>>>>>>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does depend on location certainly london has enough cycle infrastructure to
>>>>>>> get about on, though not wholly and differing degrees of segregation and
>>>>>>> location ie some infrastructure isn?t road as such but being able to pass
>>>>>>> through stuff ie cut throughs or Parks for example.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But stuff like the London Embankment where certainly Westminster to the
>>>>>>> Tower was a dual carriageway ie 4 lane road, with in places some useless
>>>>>>> painted lanes, was the preserve of fast roadie types, which now with the
>>>>>>> wide (though arguably could be wider still) cycleway it is more accessible
>>>>>>> to more people even see wee kids, it?s probably a few seconds slower as
>>>>>>> though does have less junctions overall it also doesn?t have the draft
>>>>>>> effect or encouragement to keep up with traffic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I?d say though that 4 or 6 lane roads are more dubious in suburban or
>>>>>>> beyond areas, particularly if the speed and traffic is high, and is rushed.
>>>>>>> My old cycleway is one such place it runs parallel to the 4 lane road speed
>>>>>>> limit is nominally 40mph but it connects to a number of major roads and
>>>>>>> Heathrow so traffic essentially doesn?t dumb shit at a fairly regular
>>>>>>> intervals, so I?ve no desire to ride there, to be honest I don?t like
>>>>>>> driving it either as well it?s just a tedious stop/start type of road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stop signs and lights is another reason I dislike riding suburban and
>>>>>> urban roads, and I don't even have to unclip when I stop. Another
>>>>>> reason, of course, is having to watch out for vehicles pulling out of
>>>>>> driveways and strip malls.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't imagine why some people are so enthralled with that kind of
>>>>>> bike riding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> It?s even worse on foot where you can have multiple stages just to cross
>>>>> the road and will probably have to wait for all of them!
>>>>>
>>>>> I do occasionally ride into central london though generally avoid the
>>>>> clogged stop start bits, in fairness I don?t think Frank is claiming they
>>>>> are particularly fun, more that they can be used.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, he proclaims, above, that it's "limiting" to not ride that
>>>> way and that makes him sad. And below. he says that riding on roads
>>>> and highways "many more opportunities for pleasurable riding
>>>> experiences."
>>>
>>> I took that to mean using such roads to well make a route ie used as isn?t
>>> really another way than a pleasant road to cycle on.
>>
>> Using a road for a route to somewhere implies bicycle riding as
>> transportation. I have a car and a truck for transportation, while my
>> bike riding is 100% hedonistic.
>>
>For me a bike absolutely can be transport, I can drive to work for example
>but it’s a royal pain, for a number of reasons, and potentially unreliable
>in terms of arrival time.
>
>Equally due to my disability I’m limited in terms of driving and public
>transport, so when I had something I wanted to visit some 20 miles into
>london, car really isn’t a sane option, and unfortunately I can’t cope with
>the tube, I don’t cope that well with busy public transport but tube is
>just beyond what I can cope with now.
>
>So I rode wasn’t particularly hard work, essentially parks and cycleways
>for most part.
>
>>>>> Which is where we agree.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, I haven't seen anyone denying that most roads can be used by
>>>> bicyclists.
>>>>
>>>>> Where we don?t is belief that with training everyone can and could use such
>>>>> roads, where as I while I do use them get that not everyone is going to.
>>>>
>>>> I rode a couple of miles on public roads just yesterday to get to and
>>>> from my favorite bike trail. My usual access to that trail is
>>>> temporarily closed.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For that personally for myself it?s more preference if x multiple lane road
>>>>>>>>> works within the route? And why I?m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>>>>>>>> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>>>>>>>> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>>>>>>>> credit union, as one example.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>>>>>>>> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It appears to me that Krygowski has disdain for people who use cars
>>>> and trucks for transportation and that he enjoys waving his ass in
>>>> their faces and inhibiting their travel.
>>>>
>>> Don?t think so he is rather stuck in his ways and using cycling advocacy
>>> that really has had its day.
>>>
>>>> Everyone gets their enjoyment in their own way. I enjoy riding in
>>>> solitariness.
>>>>
>>> I do both, solo is often more goal oriented than social.

On 10/7/2023 7:40 AM, John B. wrote:
> Shortly after he [that is, I] bought his new electric car he was whining
> about how could he carry two bikes as there wasn't any room in his new
> car for them.

Damn, John, your memory really is getting bad! You are precisely 100% wrong!

What I said instead was that on of my absolute criteria for a car was
the ability to carry two folded bikes, two adults and two kids, plus
some additional luggage. I took along the bikes when shopping. The car I
bought does that, and has since carried a violin, a trumpet and a cello,
each in their cases.

I'm afraid you're more like Tom every day. Both of you need to take
notes if you hope to avoid looking like fools.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 14:40:31 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 12:07:40 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 09:58:55 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 21:07:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I?m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>>>>>>>>>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn?t particularly troublesome.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
>>>>>>>>>> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don?t push it as
>>>>>>>>>> well absolute speed or time down doesn?t bother me and the risks if it goes
>>>>>>>>>> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
>>>>>>>>> want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
>>>>>>>>> personal choice.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>>>>>>>>>>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>>>>>>>>>>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>>>>>>>>>>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>>>>>>>>>>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does depend on location certainly london has enough cycle infrastructure to
>>>>>>>> get about on, though not wholly and differing degrees of segregation and
>>>>>>>> location ie some infrastructure isn?t road as such but being able to pass
>>>>>>>> through stuff ie cut throughs or Parks for example.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But stuff like the London Embankment where certainly Westminster to the
>>>>>>>> Tower was a dual carriageway ie 4 lane road, with in places some useless
>>>>>>>> painted lanes, was the preserve of fast roadie types, which now with the
>>>>>>>> wide (though arguably could be wider still) cycleway it is more accessible
>>>>>>>> to more people even see wee kids, it?s probably a few seconds slower as
>>>>>>>> though does have less junctions overall it also doesn?t have the draft
>>>>>>>> effect or encouragement to keep up with traffic.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I?d say though that 4 or 6 lane roads are more dubious in suburban or
>>>>>>>> beyond areas, particularly if the speed and traffic is high, and is rushed.
>>>>>>>> My old cycleway is one such place it runs parallel to the 4 lane road speed
>>>>>>>> limit is nominally 40mph but it connects to a number of major roads and
>>>>>>>> Heathrow so traffic essentially doesn?t dumb shit at a fairly regular
>>>>>>>> intervals, so I?ve no desire to ride there, to be honest I don?t like
>>>>>>>> driving it either as well it?s just a tedious stop/start type of road.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stop signs and lights is another reason I dislike riding suburban and
>>>>>>> urban roads, and I don't even have to unclip when I stop. Another
>>>>>>> reason, of course, is having to watch out for vehicles pulling out of
>>>>>>> driveways and strip malls.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't imagine why some people are so enthralled with that kind of
>>>>>>> bike riding.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It?s even worse on foot where you can have multiple stages just to cross
>>>>>> the road and will probably have to wait for all of them!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do occasionally ride into central london though generally avoid the
>>>>>> clogged stop start bits, in fairness I don?t think Frank is claiming they
>>>>>> are particularly fun, more that they can be used.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, he proclaims, above, that it's "limiting" to not ride that
>>>>> way and that makes him sad. And below. he says that riding on roads
>>>>> and highways "many more opportunities for pleasurable riding
>>>>> experiences."
>>>>
>>>> I took that to mean using such roads to well make a route ie used as isn?t
>>>> really another way than a pleasant road to cycle on.
>>>
>>> Using a road for a route to somewhere implies bicycle riding as
>>> transportation. I have a car and a truck for transportation, while my
>>> bike riding is 100% hedonistic.
>>>
>> For me a bike absolutely can be transport, I can drive to work for example
>> but it’s a royal pain, for a number of reasons, and potentially unreliable
>> in terms of arrival time.
>>
>> Equally due to my disability I’m limited in terms of driving and public
>> transport, so when I had something I wanted to visit some 20 miles into
>> london, car really isn’t a sane option, and unfortunately I can’t cope with
>> the tube, I don’t cope that well with busy public transport but tube is
>> just beyond what I can cope with now.
>>
>> So I rode wasn’t particularly hard work, essentially parks and cycleways
>> for most part.
>>
>>>>>> Which is where we agree.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed, I haven't seen anyone denying that most roads can be used by
>>>>> bicyclists.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Where we don?t is belief that with training everyone can and could use such
>>>>>> roads, where as I while I do use them get that not everyone is going to.
>>>>>
>>>>> I rode a couple of miles on public roads just yesterday to get to and
>>>>> from my favorite bike trail. My usual access to that trail is
>>>>> temporarily closed.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For that personally for myself it?s more preference if x multiple lane road
>>>>>>>>>> works within the route? And why I?m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>>>>>>>>> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>>>>>>>>> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>>>>>>>>> credit union, as one example.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>>>>>>>>> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It appears to me that Krygowski has disdain for people who use cars
>>>>> and trucks for transportation and that he enjoys waving his ass in
>>>>> their faces and inhibiting their travel.
>>>>>
>>>> Don?t think so he is rather stuck in his ways and using cycling advocacy
>>>> that really has had its day.
>>>>
>>>>> Everyone gets their enjoyment in their own way. I enjoy riding in
>>>>> solitariness.
>>>>>
>>>> I do both, solo is often more goal oriented than social.
>
> I rode my bike to work a few times, when it was only about 8 miles on
> rural roads. That was a long time ago, but I'd actually done it
> earlier when I was working in downtown Madison, Wi, near the Capital.
> I stoped then when I got hit by the mirror on a schoolbus. It put me
> in the ditch with a really sore shoulder and the handbars ripped off
> my bicycle.
>
>>> I don't understand the concept of bicycle riding as a social
>>> pursuance. I see it as the other way around, i.e. "something to do
>>> while being social." Kind of like playing card games.
>>>
>> Shared hobbies interests fairly common I certainly ride more alone than in
>> a group but I do both and am even in a bike club and all that.
>
> Groups and clubs have rules. I make my own rules.

On 10/7/2023 1:21 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>> Groups and clubs have rules. I make my own rules.
>
> Rather depends on the club and the type of riding you do, some fast rides
> will be folks rotating and will be rule based, others more social in nature
> ie slowly rolling from cafe to cafe, I generally do gravel rides which
> really means 2/3 max and really rules don’t really apply.

The Florida tricycle rider obviously has a pathological problem
associating with other humans. His lifetime of rejecting and being
rejected by company gives him wildly distorted ideas of groups, clubs
and much else.

Even when I rode with the fastest club members, riding pacelines and
doing other long, fast rides there were no "rules" as such. There were
proper riding techniques, like maintain your line, warn others of road
hazards, stay out of people's blind spots, don't brake or swerve without
warning, etc. People learned those good practices mostly by observing
others. Those same good practices apply to the more relaxed rides I now
do with others. They're very sensible.

If a grumpy codger showed up for a ride and said "his rules" were
incompatible with the others, "his rules" would probably put others at
risk. He'd soon find himself riding alone. I suspect something similar
has happened many times in his life.

But hey, he mitigates his feelings of rejection by attacking his
betters, and telling fantasies of naked women he spontaneously meets!

(I think most horny teenage boys at least keep that stuff to themselves.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 7 Oct 2023 14:13:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/7/2023 1:21 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>> Groups and clubs have rules. I make my own rules.
>>
>> Rather depends on the club and the type of riding you do, some fast rides
>> will be folks rotating and will be rule based, others more social in nature
>> ie slowly rolling from cafe to cafe, I generally do gravel rides which
>> really means 2/3 max and really rules don’t really apply.
>
>The Florida tricycle rider obviously has a pathological problem
>associating with other humans. His lifetime of rejecting and being
>rejected by company gives him wildly distorted ideas of groups, clubs
>and much else.

Assumes "facts" not in evidence... I have a very accurate
understanding of groups and clubs which is why I do my best to stay
clear of them.

Occasionally, I get drug into social affairs to satisfy my family and
friends, but they all understand when I leave before it's over. I have
little tolerance for the boring, senseless small talk that is common
in the affairs

>Even when I rode with the fastest club members, riding pacelines and
>doing other long, fast rides there were no "rules" as such. There were
>proper riding techniques, like maintain your line, warn others of road
>hazards, stay out of people's blind spots, don't brake or swerve without
>warning, etc.

Some people like to ride with their eyes and noses pointed directly at
another rider's ass. I'm not one of them.

>People learned those good practices mostly by observing
>others. Those same good practices apply to the more relaxed rides I now
>do with others.

.....8 or 9 mile rides to a local coffee shop, where they can gossip
and jabber with the other group thinkers...

>They're very sensible.

Rules by any other name would smell as awful

>If a grumpy codger showed up for a ride

....never happen....

> and said "his rules" were
>incompatible with the others, "his rules" would probably put others at
>risk. He'd soon find himself riding alone.

Which is what I preferred all along.

> I suspect something similar
>has happened many times in his life.

Assumes "facts" not in evidence...

>But hey, he mitigates his feelings of rejection by attacking his
>betters,

The irony bell rings once again for little Frankie Krygowski.

>and telling fantasies of naked women he spontaneously meets!

I suspect such things are only fantasies for the guys who've never
experienced them. I suspect there are many in my age group who have.

Life was fun and exciting back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s for those of
us who weren't too timid to go out and find it.

>(I think most horny teenage boys at least keep that stuff to themselves.)

Don't be jealous, little man. It's so ugly.

On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 11:56:54 AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Oct 2023 14:13:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 10/7/2023 1:21 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Groups and clubs have rules. I make my own rules.
> >>
> >> Rather depends on the club and the type of riding you do, some fast rides
> >> will be folks rotating and will be rule based, others more social in nature
> >> ie slowly rolling from cafe to cafe, I generally do gravel rides which
> >> really means 2/3 max and really rules don’t really apply.
> >
> >The Florida tricycle rider obviously has a pathological problem
> >associating with other humans. His lifetime of rejecting and being
> >rejected by company gives him wildly distorted ideas of groups, clubs
> >and much else.
> Assumes "facts" not in evidence... I have a very accurate
> understanding of groups and clubs which is why I do my best to stay
> clear of them.
>
> Occasionally, I get drug into social affairs to satisfy my family and
> friends, but they all understand when I leave before it's over. I have
> little tolerance for the boring, senseless small talk that is common
> in the affairs
> >Even when I rode with the fastest club members, riding pacelines and
> >doing other long, fast rides there were no "rules" as such. There were
> >proper riding techniques, like maintain your line, warn others of road
> >hazards, stay out of people's blind spots, don't brake or swerve without
> >warning, etc.
> Some people like to ride with their eyes and noses pointed directly at
> another rider's ass. I'm not one of them.
> >People learned those good practices mostly by observing
> >others. Those same good practices apply to the more relaxed rides I now
> >do with others.
> ....8 or 9 mile rides to a local coffee shop, where they can gossip
> and jabber with the other group thinkers...
>
> >They're very sensible.
>
> Rules by any other name would smell as awful
> >If a grumpy codger showed up for a ride
> ...never happen....
> > and said "his rules" were
> >incompatible with the others, "his rules" would probably put others at
> >risk. He'd soon find himself riding alone.
> Which is what I preferred all along.
> > I suspect something similar
> >has happened many times in his life.
> Assumes "facts" not in evidence...
> >But hey, he mitigates his feelings of rejection by attacking his
> >betters,
> The irony bell rings once again for little Frankie Krygowski.
> >and telling fantasies of naked women he spontaneously meets!
> I suspect such things are only fantasies for the guys who've never
> experienced them. I suspect there are many in my age group who have.
>
> Life was fun and exciting back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s for those of
> us who weren't too timid to go out and find it.
> >(I think most horny teenage boys at least keep that stuff to themselves.)
> Don't be jealous, little man. It's so ugly.

I'm trying to imagine how Krygowski can call ANYONE else "pathological". The same guy who shits in his pants at the word AR15 because it is his belief that it is identical to an M4. That it is designed for killing humans. That the Military love them when they do not. Shooting people with a .22 is an invitation to being killed since almost anything can stop the bullet and even if it doesn't it causes minimal damage. In the meantime they are shooting American military with .30 calibers from an AK47.

Frank believes that wearing helmets prevents his favorite Communists from teaching bicyclists not to ride on the wrong side of the road.

Krygowski has "friends" that have done everything that could possibly be argued and they are proof that anyone he doesn't like is wrong.

He has to "prepare" himself to ride through neighborhoods that have minorities living in them.

He has done nothing with his life but teach and believes that makes him an excellent engineer.

He believes that he is making such a great living off of his college retirement that he doesn't need to worry about inflation.

Should we mention that he is happy using feminine pronouns for men?

On Sat, 7 Oct 2023 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 11:56:54?AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Oct 2023 14:13:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 10/7/2023 1:21 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> >> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Groups and clubs have rules. I make my own rules.
>> >>
>> >> Rather depends on the club and the type of riding you do, some fast rides
>> >> will be folks rotating and will be rule based, others more social in nature
>> >> ie slowly rolling from cafe to cafe, I generally do gravel rides which
>> >> really means 2/3 max and really rules don’t really apply.
>> >
>> >The Florida tricycle rider obviously has a pathological problem
>> >associating with other humans. His lifetime of rejecting and being
>> >rejected by company gives him wildly distorted ideas of groups, clubs
>> >and much else.
>> Assumes "facts" not in evidence... I have a very accurate
>> understanding of groups and clubs which is why I do my best to stay
>> clear of them.
>>
>> Occasionally, I get drug into social affairs to satisfy my family and
>> friends, but they all understand when I leave before it's over. I have
>> little tolerance for the boring, senseless small talk that is common
>> in the affairs
>> >Even when I rode with the fastest club members, riding pacelines and
>> >doing other long, fast rides there were no "rules" as such. There were
>> >proper riding techniques, like maintain your line, warn others of road
>> >hazards, stay out of people's blind spots, don't brake or swerve without
>> >warning, etc.
>> Some people like to ride with their eyes and noses pointed directly at
>> another rider's ass. I'm not one of them.
>> >People learned those good practices mostly by observing
>> >others. Those same good practices apply to the more relaxed rides I now
>> >do with others.
>> ....8 or 9 mile rides to a local coffee shop, where they can gossip
>> and jabber with the other group thinkers...
>>
>> >They're very sensible.
>>
>> Rules by any other name would smell as awful
>> >If a grumpy codger showed up for a ride
>> ...never happen....
>> > and said "his rules" were
>> >incompatible with the others, "his rules" would probably put others at
>> >risk. He'd soon find himself riding alone.
>> Which is what I preferred all along.
>> > I suspect something similar
>> >has happened many times in his life.
>> Assumes "facts" not in evidence...
>> >But hey, he mitigates his feelings of rejection by attacking his
>> >betters,
>> The irony bell rings once again for little Frankie Krygowski.
>> >and telling fantasies of naked women he spontaneously meets!
>> I suspect such things are only fantasies for the guys who've never
>> experienced them. I suspect there are many in my age group who have.
>>
>> Life was fun and exciting back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s for those of
>> us who weren't too timid to go out and find it.
>> >(I think most horny teenage boys at least keep that stuff to themselves.)
>> Don't be jealous, little man. It's so ugly.
>
>I'm trying to imagine how Krygowski can call ANYONE else "pathological". The same guy who shits in his pants at the word AR15 because it is his belief that it is identical to an M4. That it is designed for killing humans. That the Military love them when they do not. Shooting people with a .22 is an invitation to being killed since almost anything can stop the bullet and even if it doesn't it causes minimal damage. In the meantime they are shooting American military with .30 calibers from an AK47.
>
>Frank believes that wearing helmets prevents his favorite Communists from teaching bicyclists not to ride on the wrong side of the road.
>
>Krygowski has "friends" that have done everything that could possibly be argued and they are proof that anyone he doesn't like is wrong.
>
>He has to "prepare" himself to ride through neighborhoods that have minorities living in them.
>
>He has done nothing with his life but teach and believes that makes him an excellent engineer.
>
>He believes that he is making such a great living off of his college retirement that he doesn't need to worry about inflation.
>
>Should we mention that he is happy using feminine pronouns for men?

Krygowski's whole life is as stuffy as a smoker's laundry bag. I'll
bet he lived with his parent's while he was going to college.

On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 2:52:19 PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Oct 2023 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 11:56:54?AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Sat, 7 Oct 2023 14:13:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 10/7/2023 1:21 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> >> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Groups and clubs have rules. I make my own rules.
> >> >>
> >> >> Rather depends on the club and the type of riding you do, some fast rides
> >> >> will be folks rotating and will be rule based, others more social in nature
> >> >> ie slowly rolling from cafe to cafe, I generally do gravel rides which
> >> >> really means 2/3 max and really rules don’t really apply.
> >> >
> >> >The Florida tricycle rider obviously has a pathological problem
> >> >associating with other humans. His lifetime of rejecting and being
> >> >rejected by company gives him wildly distorted ideas of groups, clubs
> >> >and much else.
> >> Assumes "facts" not in evidence... I have a very accurate
> >> understanding of groups and clubs which is why I do my best to stay
> >> clear of them.
> >>
> >> Occasionally, I get drug into social affairs to satisfy my family and
> >> friends, but they all understand when I leave before it's over. I have
> >> little tolerance for the boring, senseless small talk that is common
> >> in the affairs
> >> >Even when I rode with the fastest club members, riding pacelines and
> >> >doing other long, fast rides there were no "rules" as such. There were
> >> >proper riding techniques, like maintain your line, warn others of road
> >> >hazards, stay out of people's blind spots, don't brake or swerve without
> >> >warning, etc.
> >> Some people like to ride with their eyes and noses pointed directly at
> >> another rider's ass. I'm not one of them.
> >> >People learned those good practices mostly by observing
> >> >others. Those same good practices apply to the more relaxed rides I now
> >> >do with others.
> >> ....8 or 9 mile rides to a local coffee shop, where they can gossip
> >> and jabber with the other group thinkers...
> >>
> >> >They're very sensible.
> >>
> >> Rules by any other name would smell as awful
> >> >If a grumpy codger showed up for a ride
> >> ...never happen....
> >> > and said "his rules" were
> >> >incompatible with the others, "his rules" would probably put others at
> >> >risk. He'd soon find himself riding alone.
> >> Which is what I preferred all along.
> >> > I suspect something similar
> >> >has happened many times in his life.
> >> Assumes "facts" not in evidence...
> >> >But hey, he mitigates his feelings of rejection by attacking his
> >> >betters,
> >> The irony bell rings once again for little Frankie Krygowski.
> >> >and telling fantasies of naked women he spontaneously meets!
> >> I suspect such things are only fantasies for the guys who've never
> >> experienced them. I suspect there are many in my age group who have.
> >>
> >> Life was fun and exciting back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s for those of
> >> us who weren't too timid to go out and find it.
> >> >(I think most horny teenage boys at least keep that stuff to themselves.)
> >> Don't be jealous, little man. It's so ugly.
> >
> >I'm trying to imagine how Krygowski can call ANYONE else "pathological". The same guy who shits in his pants at the word AR15 because it is his belief that it is identical to an M4. That it is designed for killing humans. That the Military love them when they do not. Shooting people with a .22 is an invitation to being killed since almost anything can stop the bullet and even if it doesn't it causes minimal damage. In the meantime they are shooting American military with .30 calibers from an AK47.
> >
> >Frank believes that wearing helmets prevents his favorite Communists from teaching bicyclists not to ride on the wrong side of the road.
> >
> >Krygowski has "friends" that have done everything that could possibly be argued and they are proof that anyone he doesn't like is wrong.
> >
> >He has to "prepare" himself to ride through neighborhoods that have minorities living in them.
> >
> >He has done nothing with his life but teach and believes that makes him an excellent engineer.
> >
> >He believes that he is making such a great living off of his college retirement that he doesn't need to worry about inflation.
> >
> >Should we mention that he is happy using feminine pronouns for men?
> Krygowski's whole life is as stuffy as a smoker's laundry bag. I'll
> bet he lived with his parent's while he was going to college.

I'd bet that he lived with his parents until he got married.