On 10/15/2023 11:04 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:29:23 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 10/15/2023 7:00 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:20:38 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 07:05:46 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 17:50:40 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 04:59:06 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:17:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:34:22 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
>>>>>>>>>>> Junior?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> from Junior's cite
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
>>>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
>>>>>>>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
>>>>>>>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
>>>>>>>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here's more....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>>>>>>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>>>>>>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>>>>>>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>>>>>>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>>>>>>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>>>>>>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>>>>>>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>>>>>>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>>>>>>>>>> nutrients....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>>>>>>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>>>>>>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>>>>>>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>>>>>>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>>>>>>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>>>>>>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>>>>>>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>>>>>>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>>>>>>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>>>>>>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>>>>>>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>>>>>>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>>>>>>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>>>>>>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>>>>>>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>>>>>>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>>>>>>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>>>>>>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>>>>>>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>>>>>>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>>>>>>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>>>>>>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>>>>>>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>>>>>>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>>>>>>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>>>>>>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>>>>>>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>>>>>>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>>>>>>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>>>>>>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>>>>>>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>>>>>>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *or similar as you prefer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
>>>>>>>>> disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
>>>>>>>>> today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
>>>>>>>>> rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, industrialization which allowed people to move off the farm and
>>>>>>>> into town was what created a market for farm goods and allowed farming
>>>>>>>> to grow from a substance level to a business.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...and now it's grown to the corporate level.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But that's true of any successful business, isn't it? The Wright
>>>>>> brothers started out selling bicycles, built what was hardly more then
>>>>>> a powered kite, and grew into a company - Curtiss-Wright - that was
>>>>>> for a period the largest aviation firm in the U.S.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't denigrate business in general, I simply don't approve of the
>>>>> vast centralization via corporate structures. Curtiss-Wright is an
>>>>> example.
>>>>
>>>> Well, a back yard shop could hardly develop and build a jet engine,
>>>> could it? Or a supersonic airplane?
>>>> Or sell as cheap as Amazon. or, or, or...
>>>
>>> I think I prefer a world without jet engines, supersonic airplanes, or
>>> Amazon, but that's just me.
>>
>> Uh, No A10 then. Not much of a world IMHO.
>
> Oh darn, I hadn't expected my world to have bad guys.

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 8:52:17 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/15/2023 10:45 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:20:46 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/15/2023 3:58 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:12:02 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 16:36:08 -0400, Catrike Rider
> >>>> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:16:15 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 10/14/2023 2:34 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> >>>>>>>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
> >>>>>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
> >>>>>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
> >>>>>>>>> Junior?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> from Junior's cite
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
> >>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
> >>>>>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
> >>>>>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
> >>>>>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Here's more....
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
> >>>>>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
> >>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
> >>>>>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
> >>>>>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence.....
> >>>>>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
> >>>>>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants.....
> >>>>>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
> >>>>>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
> >>>>>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
> >>>>>>>>> nutrients....
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
> >>>>>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
> >>>>>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
> >>>>>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
> >>>>>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
> >>>>>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
> >>>>>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
> >>>>>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
> >>>>>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
> >>>>>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
> >>>>>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
> >>>>>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
> >>>>>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
> >>>>>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
> >>>>>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
> >>>>>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
> >>>>>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
> >>>>>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
> >>>>>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
> >>>>>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
> >>>>>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions.....
> >>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
> >>>>>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
> >>>>>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
> >>>>>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
> >>>>>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
> >>>>>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
> >>>>>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
> >>>>>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
> >>>>>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
> >>>>>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
> >>>>>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
> >>>>>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
> >>>>>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> *or similar as you prefer
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
> >>>>>>> disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
> >>>>>>> today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
> >>>>>>> rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Is that fundamentally different than the shift from nomadic
> >>>>>> to agricultural culture? In degree maybe but just a
> >>>>>> furtherance of the same principle.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, but I'm a big fan of farming and it's lifestyle, before the big
> >>>>> corporate takeover, that is.
> >>>>
> >>>> Are you old enough to remember what farming without "big corporate",
> >>>> you know like the ones that made tractors, hay bailers, power milkers,
> >>>> etc? When I was a boy there were still a few people farming "by hand",
> >>>> as it were. Plowing with a team, hand milking the cows, cutting hay
> >>>> with a scythe. etc. An all day - from can to can't - job every day of
> >>>> the year.
> >>>
> >>> Indeed I am. We had tractors, but we also had a team of horses, as did
> >>> our neighbors. Horses were handy because they could be started and
> >>> stopped by voice command leaving my dad free to walk along picking up
> >>> loose hay or corn shocks and putting it on the wagon. Sadly, the team
> >>> was gone before I was big enough to drive them, but I remember riding
> >>> on the wagon. WE had milking machines, but I knew how to hand milk,
> >>> too. The summer before I turned nine years old I was driving the
> >>> tractor, pulling a baler with a man stacking hay on the hay rack
> >>> behind. The summer before I was driving the small tractor raking hay
> >>> into windrows I believe that learning responsibilities and being
> >>> proud of my labor related accomplishments at an early age benefited me
> >>> for the rest of my life.
> >>
> >> Same childhood made my tough sensible girlfriend. One small
> >> tractor, a team for winter logging and work as you describe,
> >> hand milking two dozen cows and enough work to fill the
> >> childrens' day every day.
> >
> >
> > I'll wager that she loved it, even then, with the blisters and sweat.
> > I surely did. Not a single farm kid that I knew, and I knew plenty,
> > would have traded the life for anything else.
> Yes, that's true.
>
> But it's hard to sort familiarity from objective values.
> Heck, Russians of a certain age pine for the 'good old days'
> of Stalin. Really.
>
> Note photo dates:
> https://www.dreamstime.com/editorial-photo-communist-party-supporters-take-part-rally-portrait-soviet-dictator-josef-stalin-may-day-moscow-russia-image53199781
>
> https://blogs.voanews.com/russia-watch/2011/12/22/russia-moves-into-arctic-oil-frontier-with-a-lax-safety-culture/russia-protest/
>
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/9238626/May-Day-demonstrations-and-celebrations-around-the-world.html
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Andrew, I can show you pictures like that of KKK rallies. That doesn't mean that it has any bearing on anything or that anyone that knew anything about the KKK or Stalin would approve in the least.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 11:19:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/15/2023 11:04 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:29:23 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/15/2023 7:00 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:20:38 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 07:05:46 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 17:50:40 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 04:59:06 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:17:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:34:22 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Junior?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> from Junior's cite
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
>>>>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
>>>>>>>>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
>>>>>>>>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's more....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>>>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>>>>>>>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>>>>>>>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>>>>>>>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>>>>>>>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>>>>>>>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>>>>>>>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>>>>>>>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>>>>>>>>>>> nutrients....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>>>>>>>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>>>>>>>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>>>>>>>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>>>>>>>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>>>>>>>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>>>>>>>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>>>>>>>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>>>>>>>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>>>>>>>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>>>>>>>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>>>>>>>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>>>>>>>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>>>>>>>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>>>>>>>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>>>>>>>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>>>>>>>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>>>>>>>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>>>>>>>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>>>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>>>>>>>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>>>>>>>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>>>>>>>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>>>>>>>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>>>>>>>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>>>>>>>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>>>>>>>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>>>>>>>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>>>>>>>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>>>>>>>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *or similar as you prefer
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
>>>>>>>>>> disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
>>>>>>>>>> today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
>>>>>>>>>> rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But, industrialization which allowed people to move off the farm and
>>>>>>>>> into town was what created a market for farm goods and allowed farming
>>>>>>>>> to grow from a substance level to a business.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...and now it's grown to the corporate level.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that's true of any successful business, isn't it? The Wright
>>>>>>> brothers started out selling bicycles, built what was hardly more then
>>>>>>> a powered kite, and grew into a company - Curtiss-Wright - that was
>>>>>>> for a period the largest aviation firm in the U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't denigrate business in general, I simply don't approve of the
>>>>>> vast centralization via corporate structures. Curtiss-Wright is an
>>>>>> example.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, a back yard shop could hardly develop and build a jet engine,
>>>>> could it? Or a supersonic airplane?
>>>>> Or sell as cheap as Amazon. or, or, or...
>>>>
>>>> I think I prefer a world without jet engines, supersonic airplanes, or
>>>> Amazon, but that's just me.
>>>
>>> Uh, No A10 then. Not much of a world IMHO.
>>
>> Oh darn, I hadn't expected my world to have bad guys.
>
>More bad guys now that Mr Biden is scrapping our A10s.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 11:19:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/15/2023 11:04 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:29:23 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/15/2023 7:00 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:20:38 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 07:05:46 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 17:50:40 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 04:59:06 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:17:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:34:22 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Junior?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> from Junior's cite
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
>>>>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
>>>>>>>>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
>>>>>>>>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's more....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>>>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>>>>>>>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>>>>>>>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>>>>>>>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>>>>>>>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>>>>>>>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>>>>>>>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>>>>>>>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>>>>>>>>>>> nutrients....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>>>>>>>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>>>>>>>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>>>>>>>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>>>>>>>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>>>>>>>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>>>>>>>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>>>>>>>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>>>>>>>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>>>>>>>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>>>>>>>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>>>>>>>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>>>>>>>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>>>>>>>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>>>>>>>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>>>>>>>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>>>>>>>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>>>>>>>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>>>>>>>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>>>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>>>>>>>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>>>>>>>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>>>>>>>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>>>>>>>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>>>>>>>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>>>>>>>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>>>>>>>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>>>>>>>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>>>>>>>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>>>>>>>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *or similar as you prefer
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
>>>>>>>>>> disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
>>>>>>>>>> today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
>>>>>>>>>> rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But, industrialization which allowed people to move off the farm and
>>>>>>>>> into town was what created a market for farm goods and allowed farming
>>>>>>>>> to grow from a substance level to a business.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...and now it's grown to the corporate level.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that's true of any successful business, isn't it? The Wright
>>>>>>> brothers started out selling bicycles, built what was hardly more then
>>>>>>> a powered kite, and grew into a company - Curtiss-Wright - that was
>>>>>>> for a period the largest aviation firm in the U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't denigrate business in general, I simply don't approve of the
>>>>>> vast centralization via corporate structures. Curtiss-Wright is an
>>>>>> example.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, a back yard shop could hardly develop and build a jet engine,
>>>>> could it? Or a supersonic airplane?
>>>>> Or sell as cheap as Amazon. or, or, or...
>>>>
>>>> I think I prefer a world without jet engines, supersonic airplanes, or
>>>> Amazon, but that's just me.
>>>
>>> Uh, No A10 then. Not much of a world IMHO.
>>
>> Oh darn, I hadn't expected my world to have bad guys.
>
>More bad guys now that Mr Biden is scrapping our A10s.

On 10/15/2023 12:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> More bad guys now that Mr Biden is scrapping our A10s.

Oh Jeez!

I'm very fond of the A10. But it's astonishingly simplistic to blame the
upcoming demise of the plane on Biden. The _Air Force_, not Biden, has
been trying to take that plane out of service for many years, including
before and throughout the Trump administration. Their position is based
on their analysis of potential future use, on technological changes, on
competing planes and on finances associated with keeping the antique
A10s flying.

You and I may disagree with the Air Force's logic. But blaming your
disagreement on Biden is no more sensible than Tom's blaming his
financial troubles on Obama.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/15/2023 11:14 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/14/2023 6:19 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/14/2023 7:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> The thesis is utter bullshit. The oldest human remains found that can
>>> be used to determine height are probably those from a site in Africa.
>>> Named "little foot" was about 4ft, 4 inches tall. Which corresponds
>>> well with other remains of pre historic man found.
>>> Added to that prehistoric man lived short lives - perhaps 20 - 25
>>> years.
>>
>> The thesis you appear to be referring to has nothing to do with what I
>> originally said about human (and other) conflicts. I said "In one of
>> Jared Diamond's books, he pointed out that throughout human history,
>> if one man in a jungle came across an unknown man from an unknown
>> group, he'd need some excuse to not kill him. I think that's only a
>> slight exaggeration of a trait that's hard wired into human brains -
>> as well as the brains of most species."
>>
>> The tricycle rider's response was to introduce a completely separate
>> point in order to mock Jared Diamond. It had nothing to do with what
>> we had been discussing, which was territorial conflict between
>> nations, ethnic groups, etc.
>>
>> I don't mind reasonable topic drift. But Mr. Tricycle's use of
>> snarling mockery to derail a fairly reasonable conversation is like
>> something Tom would do, only more obnoxious.
>>
>
> Regarding, "throughout human history, if one man in a jungle came across
> an unknown man from an unknown group, he'd need some excuse to not kill
> him."
>
> Agriculture, fixed property and structured human interaction lessen that
> effect. Not enough to eliminate suicide bombers and such, but less.

Agreed.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/15/2023 7:41 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> I see your ability to count is on par with your ability to read - 4th grade at best. I engage you selectively, especially when you're at your narcissistic douchiest. Like
> - the ar-16 was a weapon the military never wanted and never used
> - there's no such thing as 'taking the lane'
> - Diamond 'surmised' we should live in the jungle, eat worms or bugs, become cannibals
>
> I ignore the vast majority of your posts since they are completely devoid of any socially or intellectually redeeming value, much like I would most likly ignore you in general since you are pretty much devoid of any socially or intellectually redeeming value.

I heartily agree.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/15/2023 12:05 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:46:39 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 10/15/2023 10:36 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:01:14 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/14/2023 4:01 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Diamond did NOT say humanity "would be better off." Did you
>>>>> not notice the linked article began by listing three
>>>>> important benefits of agriculture?  The remainder of the
>>>>> article described evidence for detriments which are not
>>>>> often considered.
>>>>>
>>>>> But Diamond does not even attempt to thoroughly compare the
>>>>> countless advantages of settled civilization with the
>>>>> disadvantages he listed. (Benefits vs. detriments - there's
>>>>> that same concept that trips up so many in this forum!) He
>>>>> does not advocate returning to hunter-gatherer lifestyles,
>>>>> or claim it would be a net benefit.
>>>>>
>>>>> The worst an intelligent person can say is that Diamond
>>>>> chose an attention-getting title for his magazine article -
>>>>> and given what we know (or should know) about articles and
>>>>> editing, it's very likely the choice of headline was a
>>>>> magazine editor's, not Diamond's.
>>>>>
>>>>> If anyone would like to see some actual intelligent
>>>>> discussion of the article in question, here's one source.
>>>>> https://equitablegrowth.org/agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race-todays-economic-history/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK that's a fair point. Merely decrying agriculture and
>>>> settled culture only indirectly implies that hunt/forage is
>>>> better.

Not really! A person can list advantages and/or disadvantages without
implying "better," and _certainly_ without claiming that one particular
choice is better for society.

Is bicycling "better" than motoring? Work on that for a while.

>>>
>>> Diamond clearly proclaimed that the transition from hunter-gatherer to
>>> agriculture was a terrible mistake.
>>
>> Which, as Mr Krygowski notes, implies but doesn't claim
>> superiority of hunt/gather over fixed settlement and
>> agriculture.
>
> What else is there?

Whoosh!

Reading comprehension? Actual thinking? SO difficult for some!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 13:06:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/15/2023 12:05 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:46:39 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/15/2023 10:36 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:01:14 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/14/2023 4:01 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Diamond did NOT say humanity "would be better off." Did you
>>>>>> not notice the linked article began by listing three
>>>>>> important benefits of agriculture?  The remainder of the
>>>>>> article described evidence for detriments which are not
>>>>>> often considered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But Diamond does not even attempt to thoroughly compare the
>>>>>> countless advantages of settled civilization with the
>>>>>> disadvantages he listed. (Benefits vs. detriments - there's
>>>>>> that same concept that trips up so many in this forum!) He
>>>>>> does not advocate returning to hunter-gatherer lifestyles,
>>>>>> or claim it would be a net benefit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The worst an intelligent person can say is that Diamond
>>>>>> chose an attention-getting title for his magazine article -
>>>>>> and given what we know (or should know) about articles and
>>>>>> editing, it's very likely the choice of headline was a
>>>>>> magazine editor's, not Diamond's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If anyone would like to see some actual intelligent
>>>>>> discussion of the article in question, here's one source.
>>>>>> https://equitablegrowth.org/agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race-todays-economic-history/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> OK that's a fair point. Merely decrying agriculture and
>>>>> settled culture only indirectly implies that hunt/forage is
>>>>> better.
>
>Not really! A person can list advantages and/or disadvantages without
>implying "better," and _certainly_ without claiming that one particular
>choice is better for society.

Diamond didn't just list advantages and disadvantages, he specifically
said that the transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture was a
mistake, that according to him, created many serious problems.

Assuming that he was interested in having a better environment for
humankind, saying that it was a mistake indicates that he thought it
would be better had it not have happened.

>Is bicycling "better" than motoring? Work on that for a while.

Not pertinant to this issue. Transitioning from one to another is an
individual thing, not a societal-cultural thing.

>>>>
>>>> Diamond clearly proclaimed that the transition from hunter-gatherer to
>>>> agriculture was a terrible mistake.
>>>
>>> Which, as Mr Krygowski notes, implies but doesn't claim
>>> superiority of hunt/gather over fixed settlement and
>>> agriculture.
>>
>> What else is there?
>
>Whoosh!
>
>Reading comprehension? Actual thinking? SO difficult for some!

As expected, Krygowski, with his simplistic intellect, runs away from
the question.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 12:59:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/15/2023 7:41 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >
>> I see your ability to count is on par with your ability to read - 4th grade at best. I engage you selectively, especially when you're at your narcissistic douchiest. Like
>> - the ar-16 was a weapon the military never wanted and never used
>> - there's no such thing as 'taking the lane'
>> - Diamond 'surmised' we should live in the jungle, eat worms or bugs, become cannibals
>>
>> I ignore the vast majority of your posts since they are completely devoid of any socially or intellectually redeeming value, much like I would most likly ignore you in general since you are pretty much devoid of any socially or intellectually redeeming value.
>
>I heartily agree.

At least Junior isn't afraid to reply to me like Krygowski is. Of
course, I haven't picked up on and discussed Junior's
psychological/personality issues like I have with Frankie. I see
Junior as simply being angry and not very bright.

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 10:30:52 AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 12:59:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 10/15/2023 7:41 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> I see your ability to count is on par with your ability to read - 4th grade at best. I engage you selectively, especially when you're at your narcissistic douchiest. Like
> >> - the ar-16 was a weapon the military never wanted and never used
> >> - there's no such thing as 'taking the lane'
> >> - Diamond 'surmised' we should live in the jungle, eat worms or bugs, become cannibals
> >>
> >> I ignore the vast majority of your posts since they are completely devoid of any socially or intellectually redeeming value, much like I would most likly ignore you in general since you are pretty much devoid of any socially or intellectually redeeming value.
> >
> >I heartily agree.
> At least Junior isn't afraid to reply to me like Krygowski is. Of
> course, I haven't picked up on and discussed Junior's
> psychological/personality issues like I have with Frankie. I see
> Junior as simply being angry and not very bright.

I've been watching you quoting him. And it is little more than the noise heard in a can. If he had the slightest intelligence you would think it plain to see what he actually looks like. A whinny little kid crying for his mama.

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 10/14/2023 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:22:50 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:16:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:10 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 12:00:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 8:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 4:54 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>> How is the situation with the native Americans going? Just asking.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A complex problem of institutional victimhood promoted by people who
>>>>>>> ought to know better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But historically not different from Dutch East Indies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These conflicts, conquests and oppressions seem to have been going on
>>>>>> almost everywhere, at almost every scale, almost forever. Heck, I can
>>>>>> remember when the kids on "our" street didn't want to go to the next
>>>>>> street because that was "their" street.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In one of Jared Diamond's books, he pointed out that throughout human
>>>>>> history, if one man in a jungle came across an unknown man from an
>>>>>> unknown group, he'd need some excuse to not kill him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that's only a slight exaggeration of a trait that's hard wired
>>>>>> into human brains - as well as the brains of most species.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Tricycle is so cute when he tries to think!
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, for Krykowski's attention...
>>>
>>>
>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>
>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>> nutrients....
>>>
>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>
>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>
>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>
>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>
>> The thesis is utter bullshit. The oldest human remains found that can
>> be used to determine height are probably those from a site in Africa.
>> Named "little foot" was about 4ft, 4 inches tall. Which corresponds
>> well with other remains of pre historic man found.
>> Added to that prehistoric man lived short lives - perhaps 20 - 25
>> years.
>>
>> I believe that the "Eskimos" of Greenland and the pigmies of the
>> Kalahari desert were hunter-gatherers well into the present era. Small
>> family groups, relatively short lived.
>>
>>
>>
>
> And the tallest human population are the agricultural
> masters and omnivores of Nederlands.

And that they are definitely! Ie tall in general.

Unlike where I was born on the edge of the high Welsh hills and the
industrial valleys so the average height and health as poverty rolls on
through the generations is lower.

Roger Merriman

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 11:19:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/15/2023 11:04 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:29:23 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/15/2023 7:00 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:20:38 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 07:05:46 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 17:50:40 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 04:59:06 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:17:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:34:22 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Junior?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> from Junior's cite
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
>>>>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
>>>>>>>>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
>>>>>>>>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's more....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>>>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>>>>>>>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>>>>>>>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>>>>>>>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>>>>>>>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>>>>>>>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>>>>>>>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>>>>>>>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>>>>>>>>>>> nutrients....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>>>>>>>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>>>>>>>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>>>>>>>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>>>>>>>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>>>>>>>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>>>>>>>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>>>>>>>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>>>>>>>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>>>>>>>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>>>>>>>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>>>>>>>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>>>>>>>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>>>>>>>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>>>>>>>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>>>>>>>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>>>>>>>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>>>>>>>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>>>>>>>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>>>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>>>>>>>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>>>>>>>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>>>>>>>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>>>>>>>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>>>>>>>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>>>>>>>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>>>>>>>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>>>>>>>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>>>>>>>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>>>>>>>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *or similar as you prefer
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
>>>>>>>>>> disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
>>>>>>>>>> today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
>>>>>>>>>> rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But, industrialization which allowed people to move off the farm and
>>>>>>>>> into town was what created a market for farm goods and allowed farming
>>>>>>>>> to grow from a substance level to a business.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...and now it's grown to the corporate level.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that's true of any successful business, isn't it? The Wright
>>>>>>> brothers started out selling bicycles, built what was hardly more then
>>>>>>> a powered kite, and grew into a company - Curtiss-Wright - that was
>>>>>>> for a period the largest aviation firm in the U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't denigrate business in general, I simply don't approve of the
>>>>>> vast centralization via corporate structures. Curtiss-Wright is an
>>>>>> example.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, a back yard shop could hardly develop and build a jet engine,
>>>>> could it? Or a supersonic airplane?
>>>>> Or sell as cheap as Amazon. or, or, or...
>>>>
>>>> I think I prefer a world without jet engines, supersonic airplanes, or
>>>> Amazon, but that's just me.
>>>
>>> Uh, No A10 then. Not much of a world IMHO.
>>
>> Oh darn, I hadn't expected my world to have bad guys.
>
>More bad guys now that Mr Biden is scrapping our A10s.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 08:00:55 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:20:38 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 07:05:46 -0400, Catrike Rider
>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 17:50:40 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 04:59:06 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:17:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:34:22 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
>>>>>>>>> Junior?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> from Junior's cite
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
>>>>>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
>>>>>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
>>>>>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here's more....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>>>>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>>>>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>>>>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>>>>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>>>>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>>>>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>>>>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>>>>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>>>>>>>> nutrients....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>>>>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>>>>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>>>>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>>>>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>>>>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>>>>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>>>>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>>>>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>>>>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>>>>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>>>>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>>>>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>>>>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>>>>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>>>>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>>>>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>>>>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>>>>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>>>>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>>>>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>>>>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>>>>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>>>>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>>>>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>>>>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>>>>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>>>>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>>>>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>>>>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>>>>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>>>>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>>>>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>*or similar as you prefer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
>>>>>>>disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
>>>>>>>today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
>>>>>>>rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But, industrialization which allowed people to move off the farm and
>>>>>>into town was what created a market for farm goods and allowed farming
>>>>>>to grow from a substance level to a business.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>...and now it's grown to the corporate level.
>>>>
>>>>But that's true of any successful business, isn't it? The Wright
>>>>brothers started out selling bicycles, built what was hardly more then
>>>>a powered kite, and grew into a company - Curtiss-Wright - that was
>>>>for a period the largest aviation firm in the U.S.
>>>
>>>I don't denigrate business in general, I simply don't approve of the
>>>vast centralization via corporate structures. Curtiss-Wright is an
>>>example.
>>
>>Well, a back yard shop could hardly develop and build a jet engine,
>>could it? Or a supersonic airplane?
>>Or sell as cheap as Amazon. or, or, or...
>
>I think I prefer a world without jet engines, supersonic airplanes, or
>Amazon, but that's just me.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 11:57:06 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:25:16 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 10/15/2023 3:59 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:17:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:34:22 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
>>>>>>> Junior?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> from Junior's cite
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
>>>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
>>>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
>>>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here's more....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>>>>>> nutrients....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *or similar as you prefer
>>>>>
>>>>> For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
>>>>> disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
>>>>> today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
>>>>> rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
>>>>
>>>> But, industrialization which allowed people to move off the farm and
>>>> into town was what created a market for farm goods and allowed farming
>>>> to grow from a substance level to a business.
>>>
>>>
>>> ...and now it's grown to the corporate level.
>>
>>I don't have a beef with corporate entities per se (having
>>started, bought, sold and dissolved several myself). The
>>capital requirements and regulatory burden of modern
>>agriculture skew against single proprietors. Within living
>>memory, a man could raise a family on 100 acres with two
>>dozen cows, buy new equipment every few years and build
>>savings. That's over.
>>
>>OTOH food is relatively cheaper and more plentiful with
>>greater (species and seasonal) variety than ever.
>>
>>In short, it's more complex than 'evil corporations ruined
>>the bucolic country life'.
>
>I'm not against corporations in general, only with how they've been
>allowed to grow into massive all powerful, often-unidentified
>entities. How many people know that they're buying a new Dodge Ram
>from a corporation named Stellantis?

So what? Does that make the Ram a better or worse vehicle? Which is
the real factor, not who makes the thing.
--
Cheers,

On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 05:15:25 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 08:00:55 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:20:38 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 07:05:46 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 17:50:40 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 04:59:06 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:17:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:34:22 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
>>>>>>>>>> Junior?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> from Junior's cite
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
>>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
>>>>>>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
>>>>>>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
>>>>>>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here's more....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>>>>>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>>>>>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>>>>>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>>>>>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>>>>>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>>>>>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>>>>>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>>>>>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>>>>>>>>> nutrients....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>>>>>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>>>>>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>>>>>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>>>>>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>>>>>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>>>>>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>>>>>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>>>>>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>>>>>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>>>>>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>>>>>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>>>>>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>>>>>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>>>>>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>>>>>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>>>>>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>>>>>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>>>>>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>>>>>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>>>>>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>>>>>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>>>>>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>>>>>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>>>>>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>>>>>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>>>>>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>>>>>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>>>>>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>>>>>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>>>>>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>>>>>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>>>>>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>*or similar as you prefer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
>>>>>>>>disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
>>>>>>>>today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
>>>>>>>>rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But, industrialization which allowed people to move off the farm and
>>>>>>>into town was what created a market for farm goods and allowed farming
>>>>>>>to grow from a substance level to a business.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>...and now it's grown to the corporate level.
>>>>>
>>>>>But that's true of any successful business, isn't it? The Wright
>>>>>brothers started out selling bicycles, built what was hardly more then
>>>>>a powered kite, and grew into a company - Curtiss-Wright - that was
>>>>>for a period the largest aviation firm in the U.S.
>>>>
>>>>I don't denigrate business in general, I simply don't approve of the
>>>>vast centralization via corporate structures. Curtiss-Wright is an
>>>>example.
>>>
>>>Well, a back yard shop could hardly develop and build a jet engine,
>>>could it? Or a supersonic airplane?
>>>Or sell as cheap as Amazon. or, or, or...
>>
>>I think I prefer a world without jet engines, supersonic airplanes, or
>>Amazon, but that's just me.
>
>And what about modern automobiles and good roads? Would have preferred
>to make your recent trip in a horse and buggy?

On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 05:20:56 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 11:57:06 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:25:16 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On 10/15/2023 3:59 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:17:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:34:22 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
>>>>>>>> Junior?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> from Junior's cite
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
>>>>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
>>>>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
>>>>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here's more....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>>>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>>>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>>>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>>>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>>>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>>>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>>>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>>>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>>>>>>> nutrients....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>>>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>>>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>>>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>>>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>>>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>>>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>>>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>>>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>>>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>>>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>>>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>>>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>>>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>>>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>>>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>>>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>>>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>>>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>>>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>>>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>>>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>>>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>>>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>>>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>>>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>>>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>>>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>>>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>>>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>>>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>>>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>>>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *or similar as you prefer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
>>>>>> disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
>>>>>> today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
>>>>>> rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, industrialization which allowed people to move off the farm and
>>>>> into town was what created a market for farm goods and allowed farming
>>>>> to grow from a substance level to a business.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ...and now it's grown to the corporate level.
>>>
>>>I don't have a beef with corporate entities per se (having
>>>started, bought, sold and dissolved several myself). The
>>>capital requirements and regulatory burden of modern
>>>agriculture skew against single proprietors. Within living
>>>memory, a man could raise a family on 100 acres with two
>>>dozen cows, buy new equipment every few years and build
>>>savings. That's over.
>>>
>>>OTOH food is relatively cheaper and more plentiful with
>>>greater (species and seasonal) variety than ever.
>>>
>>>In short, it's more complex than 'evil corporations ruined
>>>the bucolic country life'.
>>
>>I'm not against corporations in general, only with how they've been
>>allowed to grow into massive all powerful, often-unidentified
>>entities. How many people know that they're buying a new Dodge Ram
>>from a corporation named Stellantis?
>
>So what? Does that make the Ram a better or worse vehicle? Which is
>the real factor, not who makes the thing.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:20:46 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/15/2023 3:58 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:12:02 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 16:36:08 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:16:15 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/14/2023 2:34 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
>>>>>>>> Junior?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> from Junior's cite
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
>>>>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
>>>>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
>>>>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here's more....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>>>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>>>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>>>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>>>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>>>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>>>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>>>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>>>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>>>>>>> nutrients....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>>>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>>>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>>>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>>>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>>>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>>>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>>>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>>>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>>>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>>>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>>>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>>>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>>>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>>>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>>>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>>>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>>>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>>>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>>>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>>>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>>>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>>>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>>>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>>>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>>>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>>>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>>>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>>>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>>>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>>>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>>>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>>>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *or similar as you prefer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
>>>>>> disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
>>>>>> today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
>>>>>> rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that fundamentally different than the shift from nomadic
>>>>> to agricultural culture? In degree maybe but just a
>>>>> furtherance of the same principle.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but I'm a big fan of farming and it's lifestyle, before the big
>>>> corporate takeover, that is.
>>>
>>> Are you old enough to remember what farming without "big corporate",
>>> you know like the ones that made tractors, hay bailers, power milkers,
>>> etc? When I was a boy there were still a few people farming "by hand",
>>> as it were. Plowing with a team, hand milking the cows, cutting hay
>>> with a scythe. etc. An all day - from can to can't - job every day of
>>> the year.
>>
>> Indeed I am. We had tractors, but we also had a team of horses, as did
>> our neighbors. Horses were handy because they could be started and
>> stopped by voice command leaving my dad free to walk along picking up
>> loose hay or corn shocks and putting it on the wagon. Sadly, the team
>> was gone before I was big enough to drive them, but I remember riding
>> on the wagon. WE had milking machines, but I knew how to hand milk,
>> too. The summer before I turned nine years old I was driving the
>> tractor, pulling a baler with a man stacking hay on the hay rack
>> behind. The summer before I was driving the small tractor raking hay
>> into windrows I believe that learning responsibilities and being
>> proud of my labor related accomplishments at an early age benefited me
>> for the rest of my life.
>
>Same childhood made my tough sensible girlfriend. One small
>tractor, a team for winter logging and work as you describe,
>hand milking two dozen cows and enough work to fill the
>childrens' day every day.

On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 05:42:39 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:20:46 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 10/15/2023 3:58 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:12:02 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 16:36:08 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:16:15 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 2:34 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
>>>>>>>>> Junior?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> from Junior's cite
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
>>>>>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
>>>>>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
>>>>>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here's more....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>>>>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>>>>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>>>>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>>>>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>>>>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>>>>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>>>>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>>>>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>>>>>>>> nutrients....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>>>>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>>>>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>>>>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>>>>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>>>>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>>>>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>>>>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>>>>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>>>>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>>>>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>>>>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>>>>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>>>>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>>>>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>>>>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>>>>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>>>>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>>>>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>>>>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>>>>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>>>>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>>>>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>>>>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>>>>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>>>>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>>>>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>>>>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>>>>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>>>>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>>>>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>>>>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>>>>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *or similar as you prefer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
>>>>>>> disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
>>>>>>> today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
>>>>>>> rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that fundamentally different than the shift from nomadic
>>>>>> to agricultural culture? In degree maybe but just a
>>>>>> furtherance of the same principle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but I'm a big fan of farming and it's lifestyle, before the big
>>>>> corporate takeover, that is.
>>>>
>>>> Are you old enough to remember what farming without "big corporate",
>>>> you know like the ones that made tractors, hay bailers, power milkers,
>>>> etc? When I was a boy there were still a few people farming "by hand",
>>>> as it were. Plowing with a team, hand milking the cows, cutting hay
>>>> with a scythe. etc. An all day - from can to can't - job every day of
>>>> the year.
>>>
>>> Indeed I am. We had tractors, but we also had a team of horses, as did
>>> our neighbors. Horses were handy because they could be started and
>>> stopped by voice command leaving my dad free to walk along picking up
>>> loose hay or corn shocks and putting it on the wagon. Sadly, the team
>>> was gone before I was big enough to drive them, but I remember riding
>>> on the wagon. WE had milking machines, but I knew how to hand milk,
>>> too. The summer before I turned nine years old I was driving the
>>> tractor, pulling a baler with a man stacking hay on the hay rack
>>> behind. The summer before I was driving the small tractor raking hay
>>> into windrows I believe that learning responsibilities and being
>>> proud of my labor related accomplishments at an early age benefited me
>>> for the rest of my life.
>>
>>Same childhood made my tough sensible girlfriend. One small
>>tractor, a team for winter logging and work as you describe,
>>hand milking two dozen cows and enough work to fill the
>>childrens' day every day.
>
>But the tractor and the mowing machine and the hay bailer and the
>tractor drawn rake and the dairy that the milk from the 2 dozen cows
>was sold to were all because of the evil companies that the Trik guy
>condemns.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:25:16 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/15/2023 3:59 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:17:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:34:22 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
>>>>>> Junior?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> from Junior's cite
>>>>>>
>>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
>>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
>>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
>>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's more....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>>>>> nutrients....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>>>>>
>>>>> *or similar as you prefer
>>>>
>>>> For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
>>>> disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
>>>> today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
>>>> rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
>>>
>>> But, industrialization which allowed people to move off the farm and
>>> into town was what created a market for farm goods and allowed farming
>>> to grow from a substance level to a business.
>>
>>
>> ...and now it's grown to the corporate level.
>
>I don't have a beef with corporate entities per se (having
>started, bought, sold and dissolved several myself). The
>capital requirements and regulatory burden of modern
>agriculture skew against single proprietors. Within living
>memory, a man could raise a family on 100 acres with two
>dozen cows, buy new equipment every few years and build
>savings. That's over.
>
>OTOH food is relatively cheaper and more plentiful with
>greater (species and seasonal) variety than ever.
>
>In short, it's more complex than 'evil corporations ruined
>the bucolic country life'.

But, in reality the "bucolic country life" was damned hard work. Even
with modern tools it is still hard work, but think what it was like
when you cut your hay with a hand scythe, racked it into windrows by
hand loaded it on the wagon by hand and then mowed it away in the
barn by hand. Sowed and weeded the garden by hand, picked the worms
off the tomatoes by hand, dug the potatoes and picked the beans by
hand and the Missus canned what you planned to eat next winter.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:04:10 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/14/2023 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:22:50 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:16:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:10 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 12:00:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 8:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 4:54 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>> How is the situation with the native Americans going? Just asking.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A complex problem of institutional victimhood promoted by people who
>>>>>>> ought to know better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But historically not different from Dutch East Indies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These conflicts, conquests and oppressions seem to have been going on
>>>>>> almost everywhere, at almost every scale, almost forever. Heck, I can
>>>>>> remember when the kids on "our" street didn't want to go to the next
>>>>>> street because that was "their" street.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In one of Jared Diamond's books, he pointed out that throughout human
>>>>>> history, if one man in a jungle came across an unknown man from an
>>>>>> unknown group, he'd need some excuse to not kill him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that's only a slight exaggeration of a trait that's hard wired
>>>>>> into human brains - as well as the brains of most species.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Tricycle is so cute when he tries to think!
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, for Krykowski's attention...
>>>
>>>
>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>
>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>> nutrients....
>>>
>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>
>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>
>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>
>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>
>> The thesis is utter bullshit. The oldest human remains found that can
>> be used to determine height are probably those from a site in Africa.
>> Named "little foot" was about 4ft, 4 inches tall. Which corresponds
>> well with other remains of pre historic man found.
>> Added to that prehistoric man lived short lives - perhaps 20 - 25
>> years.
>>
>> I believe that the "Eskimos" of Greenland and the pigmies of the
>> Kalahari desert were hunter-gatherers well into the present era. Small
>> family groups, relatively short lived.
>>
>>
>>
>
>And the tallest human population are the agricultural
>masters and omnivores of Nederlands.

Certainly but they were ages later the primitive hunter gatherers.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 10/15/2023 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:25:16 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 10/15/2023 3:59 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:17:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:34:22 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
>>>>>>> Junior?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> from Junior's cite
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
>>>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
>>>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
>>>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here's more....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>>>>>> nutrients....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *or similar as you prefer
>>>>>
>>>>> For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
>>>>> disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
>>>>> today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
>>>>> rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
>>>>
>>>> But, industrialization which allowed people to move off the farm and
>>>> into town was what created a market for farm goods and allowed farming
>>>> to grow from a substance level to a business.
>>>
>>>
>>> ...and now it's grown to the corporate level.
>>
>> I don't have a beef with corporate entities per se (having
>> started, bought, sold and dissolved several myself). The
>> capital requirements and regulatory burden of modern
>> agriculture skew against single proprietors. Within living
>> memory, a man could raise a family on 100 acres with two
>> dozen cows, buy new equipment every few years and build
>> savings. That's over.
>>
>> OTOH food is relatively cheaper and more plentiful with
>> greater (species and seasonal) variety than ever.
>>
>> In short, it's more complex than 'evil corporations ruined
>> the bucolic country life'.
>
> But, in reality the "bucolic country life" was damned hard work. Even
> with modern tools it is still hard work, but think what it was like
> when you cut your hay with a hand scythe, racked it into windrows by
> hand loaded it on the wagon by hand and then mowed it away in the
> barn by hand. Sowed and weeded the garden by hand, picked the worms
> off the tomatoes by hand, dug the potatoes and picked the beans by
> hand and the Missus canned what you planned to eat next winter.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:11:59 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/14/2023 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:34:22 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:05:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>>>>>
>>>>> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
>>>>> Junior?
>>>>>
>>>>> from Junior's cite
>>>>>
>>>>> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
>>>>> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
>>>>> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
>>>>> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's more....
>>>>>
>>>>> Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
>>>>> the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
>>>>> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
>>>>> recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
>>>>> inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
>>>>> For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
>>>>> gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
>>>>> While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
>>>>> potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
>>>>> hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
>>>>> nutrients....
>>>>>
>>>>> Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
>>>>> hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
>>>>> for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
>>>>> crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
>>>>> for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
>>>>> farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
>>>>> of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
>>>>> (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
>>>>> theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
>>>>> general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
>>>>> probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
>>>>> birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
>>>>> says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
>>>>> nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
>>>>> disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...
>>>>>
>>>>> Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
>>>>> the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
>>>>> together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
>>>>> disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
>>>>> of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
>>>>> Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
>>>>> helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
>>>>> Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
>>>>> were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
>>>>> one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
>>>>> encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
>>>>> pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....
>>>>>
>>>>> With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
>>>>> most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
>>>>> more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
>>>>> finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
>>>>> unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
>>>>> transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
>>>>> with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
>>>>> or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
>>>>> hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html
>>>>
>>>> Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>>>>
>>>> *or similar as you prefer
>>>
>>> For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
>>> disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
>>> today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
>>> rural to urban areas to accommodate it.
>>
>> But, industrialization which allowed people to move off the farm and
>> into town was what created a market for farm goods and allowed farming
>> to grow from a substance level to a business.
>
>+1
>
>World food production continues to increase on less land
>with less labor (excepting some reduction from 2020~2021
>disruptions).

And that is true in nearly all activities. Imagine telling parents,
"Your kids can walk to school if it is 1 mile of less from your house
and bring their own lunch if they want to eat at noon.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:46:39 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/15/2023 10:36 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:01:14 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/14/2023 4:01 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 10/14/2023 4:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 10/14/2023 2:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:10 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 12:00:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 8:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 4:54 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>   How is the situation with the native Americans
>>>>>>>>>> going? Just asking.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A complex problem of institutional victimhood promoted
>>>>>>>>> by people who
>>>>>>>>> ought to know better.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But historically not different from Dutch East Indies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> These conflicts, conquests and oppressions seem to have
>>>>>>>> been going on
>>>>>>>> almost everywhere, at almost every scale, almost
>>>>>>>> forever. Heck, I can
>>>>>>>> remember when the kids on "our" street didn't want to
>>>>>>>> go to the next
>>>>>>>> street because that was "their" street.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In one of Jared Diamond's books, he pointed out that
>>>>>>>> throughout human
>>>>>>>> history, if one man in a jungle came across an unknown
>>>>>>>> man from an
>>>>>>>> unknown group, he'd need some excuse to not kill him.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think that's only a slight exaggeration of a trait
>>>>>>>> that's hard wired
>>>>>>>> into human brains - as well as the brains of most species.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised
>>>>>>> that humanity
>>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and
>>>>>>> ate worms,
>>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mr. Tricycle is so cute when he tries to think!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Uh, as noted earlier this afternoon that was a correct
>>>>> synopsis. Impolitic perhaps but not wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Diamond did NOT say humanity "would be better off." Did you
>>>> not notice the linked article began by listing three
>>>> important benefits of agriculture?  The remainder of the
>>>> article described evidence for detriments which are not
>>>> often considered.
>>>>
>>>> But Diamond does not even attempt to thoroughly compare the
>>>> countless advantages of settled civilization with the
>>>> disadvantages he listed. (Benefits vs. detriments - there's
>>>> that same concept that trips up so many in this forum!) He
>>>> does not advocate returning to hunter-gatherer lifestyles,
>>>> or claim it would be a net benefit.
>>>>
>>>> The worst an intelligent person can say is that Diamond
>>>> chose an attention-getting title for his magazine article -
>>>> and given what we know (or should know) about articles and
>>>> editing, it's very likely the choice of headline was a
>>>> magazine editor's, not Diamond's.
>>>>
>>>> If anyone would like to see some actual intelligent
>>>> discussion of the article in question, here's one source.
>>>> https://equitablegrowth.org/agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race-todays-economic-history/
>>>>
>>>
>>> OK that's a fair point. Merely decrying agriculture and
>>> settled culture only indirectly implies that hunt/forage is
>>> better.
>>
>> Diamond clearly proclaimed that the transition from hunter-gatherer to
>> agriculture was a terrible mistake.
>
>Which, as Mr Krygowski notes, implies but doesn't claim
>superiority of hunt/gather over fixed settlement and
>agriculture.

It may be that there are advantages to the hunter-gather system but
obviously the fixed settlement based in agriculture is a superior
solution. For proof compare the life of the Greenland "Eskimos" and
the Kalahari Pigmies with that of your own.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 10/15/2023 6:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> But, in reality the "bucolic country life" was damned hard work. Even
> with modern tools it is still hard work, but think what it was like
> when you cut your hay with a hand scythe, racked it into windrows by
> hand loaded it on the wagon by hand and then mowed it away in the
> barn by hand. Sowed and weeded the garden by hand, picked the worms
> off the tomatoes by hand, dug the potatoes and picked the beans by
> hand and the Missus canned what you planned to eat next winter.

I'm noticing that few people who fantasize about the bucolic life of a
farmer are actually farming. That in itself should tell us a thing or two.

--
- Frank Krygowski