On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 09:37:38 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>Frame
>welding has already been successfully automated by most bicycle
>manufacturers and suppliers. No human welders are involved in the
>welding. I couldn't find much on Trek, but here's a vague description
>of what Giant Group is doing:
>"AI-Assisted Aluminum Manufacturing"
><https://www.giantgroup-cycling.com/en/technology01>

Robot Building Bike (Nov 2018):
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZU80O8C4Ns> (3:43)
This was apparently taken at a trade show, not at the Luna Cycle
factory. Luna Cycle makes eBikes, not human powered bicycles.

Two wheeler chassis welding by robot
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4khVKNZK3M> (1:02)
I think a "two wheeler" might be a bicycle, but it's hard to tell.
Near the end of the video, you can see a top view of the frame showing
obvious chain stays.

Tianjin Fujita Bicycle Co, Ltd. The CNC milling and robotic welding
section starts at 4:02.
<https://youtu.be/AV_FGC2Afss> (11:30)

Advanced Robotic Bike Frame Welding 1 thru 5 (Battle Fujita Bicycle
Factory) (Nov 2016)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1hd2GZQxWs> (1:01)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t56Ty8FoYo0> (0:38)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxPEDJwfiLU> (1:06)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrCXLnIgSw0> (0:41)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vofoF-ZZx-U> (0:28)

If I add up the robot cycle times, I get about 4 minutes per bicycle
per machine. I'll add one more minute for loading and unloading. If
they ran the machines 24 hrs per day, that would be:
1,440 min/day / 5 min per frame = 288 frames per day per machine

Tom: Is there something you would want to teach them about robotic
welding that they didn't know from the past 7 years of operation?

Automatic Packaging Line (Battle Fujita Bicycle)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RstGGm5IG3w> (0.47)
Notice that the robotic assembly line still requires a fair number of
humans. Also notice that the cardboard box says "Bianchi".
More Tianjin Fujita Bicycle videos:
<https://www.youtube.com/@tianjinbattlefujitabicycle4290/videos>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 08:05:32 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 7:22:19?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/11/2023 6:07 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:55:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>> On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>> On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>>> What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing for them.
>> >>>> Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
>> >>>> processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
>> >>>> for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
>> >>>> utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
>> >>>> between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
>> >>>> over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
>> >>>> gravy train in most cases.
>> >>
>> >>> Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
>> >>
>> >> Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
>> >> automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
>> >> millions of dollars.
>> >
>> > Automated machinery is an interesting subject. Years ago I did some
>> > surveys for a U.S. consulting firm and visited the Toyota factory
>> > here. They had just installed a new automated welding machine that
>> > (from memory) welded axle housings into the deferential housing. I
>> > made a comment about how it must be cheaper then employing skilled
>> > welders and they replied, "Yes. And it makes perfect welds every
>> > time".
>> And does it 24 hours per day, every day, exactly the same.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
>#1 John is a pure unadulterated bullshiter. Anyone that would hire him to "consult" on anything couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.
>#2 Why would Toyota weld the axle housing onto the differential case when the majority of the production is 4 wheel drive which requires a hinged connection? Do you suppose they only automate the single wheel drive assembly line? There are little roads in Africa and China where a large part of their production goes.
>#3 Welding an axle casing to the differential housing could hardly be called automation at all since it is nothing more than automating the actual welding (which can be easily done with resistance) and the turning of the initial connection would probably be done by a human welder anyway. I haven't looked under a car in years but the older cars use to pressure form the steel axle housing and then bolt is onto the differential case. This would far more easily be automated for production. And it gives direct and not indirect access to the differential.
>
>This all had to do with automating bicycle construction. Metal construction is a snap. Clarence Witt built the bikes for his racing team and as a custom builder, it took more time to get the measurements from his team riders than building the bikes in the back of the shop. Production bikes all have standard sizes meaning that cutting the tube lengths are normally done AT THE TUBING manufacturer because otherwise you would be cutting off the butting or in the case of aluminum - you would be destroying the pressure forming.
>
>All the bike manufacturer is doing is cutting the crescent ends and brazing. Brazing is an art but it can be learned in a day or two and most mistakes can be fixed by a competent brazier. So braziers are cheap.

Tommy boy, every time you open your mouth you demonstrate your
stupidity. But to reply too your idiocy.

As I wrote I was conduction a survey, i.e. going around and asking
questions to determine whether there would be sufficient demand for
the U.S. Consulting company to enter the market in Thailand.

Again as I wrote, this was "Years ago" and Toyota did not build 4
wheel drive in Thailand in that period.

As for automated welding? Well you can call it anything that you want
to but tell us, what do you call it when the point gets welded by a
machine with no human present?

By the way here is a photo of a welded rear axle housing
https://tinyurl.com/2xdbvuja
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/12/2023 4:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 09:37:38 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Frame
>> welding has already been successfully automated by most bicycle
>> manufacturers and suppliers. No human welders are involved in the
>> welding. I couldn't find much on Trek, but here's a vague description
>> of what Giant Group is doing:
>> "AI-Assisted Aluminum Manufacturing"
>> <https://www.giantgroup-cycling.com/en/technology01>
>
> Robot Building Bike (Nov 2018):
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZU80O8C4Ns> (3:43)
> This was apparently taken at a trade show, not at the Luna Cycle
> factory. Luna Cycle makes eBikes, not human powered bicycles.
>
> Two wheeler chassis welding by robot
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4khVKNZK3M> (1:02)
> I think a "two wheeler" might be a bicycle, but it's hard to tell.
> Near the end of the video, you can see a top view of the frame showing
> obvious chain stays.
>
> Tianjin Fujita Bicycle Co, Ltd. The CNC milling and robotic welding
> section starts at 4:02.
> <https://youtu.be/AV_FGC2Afss> (11:30)
>
> Advanced Robotic Bike Frame Welding 1 thru 5 (Battle Fujita Bicycle
> Factory) (Nov 2016)
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1hd2GZQxWs> (1:01)
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t56Ty8FoYo0> (0:38)
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxPEDJwfiLU> (1:06)
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrCXLnIgSw0> (0:41)
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vofoF-ZZx-U> (0:28)
>
> If I add up the robot cycle times, I get about 4 minutes per bicycle
> per machine. I'll add one more minute for loading and unloading. If
> they ran the machines 24 hrs per day, that would be:
> 1,440 min/day / 5 min per frame = 288 frames per day per machine
>
> Tom: Is there something you would want to teach them about robotic
> welding that they didn't know from the past 7 years of operation?
>
> Automatic Packaging Line (Battle Fujita Bicycle)
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RstGGm5IG3w> (0.47)
> Notice that the robotic assembly line still requires a fair number of
> humans. Also notice that the cardboard box says "Bianchi".
> More Tianjin Fujita Bicycle videos:
> <https://www.youtube.com/@tianjinbattlefujitabicycle4290/videos>
>

That production is moving (I am told by Bianchi) to their
new Italian facility.

Bicycle frame construction employs a wide range of humans,
fixtures, materials, techniques and robots. As with anything
else, there are quality/time/capital investment etc curves
which optimize at different points for different individual
products.

For example a moderately automated motorcycle frame facility:

https://www.automate.org/case-studies/precision-welding-robots-rev-up-motorcycle-frame-production

Not as hi-zoot as some, but probably less expensive.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 09:37:38 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 07:05:02 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Of course you're correct. But I designed so many products for medium to large scale production that I know what construction costs. If you're a mechanical engineer you should too in which case you know that I'm correct of frame building costs. I can set up the aluminum Trek assembly line so that they could turn out 500 bikes a day. And the only really skilled labor would be the heliarc welders.
>
>If you've designed "so many" products, know frame building costs, can
>"setup" the Trek aluminum assembly line to produce 500 (complete)
>bicycles per day, you must know which manufacturers are currently
>using robotics to fabricate and assemble their bicycles. Could I
>trouble you for their names (and URL's) so I can read about their
>methods? I especially would like to know how they handle "floppy"
>components, such as brake and shifting cables. Also, how the assembly
>robot handles variations in the frame size and position when attaching
>components.
>
>Heliarc and helium gas are no longer used as a shielding gas for
>welding aluminum. The most common welding gas mix is 75% argon, 25%
>carbon dioxide. There are other blends available:
><https://eurekaoxygencompany.com/2020/02/15/argon-co2-mixtures/>
>The technology is called TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) welding. Frame
>welding has already been successfully automated by most bicycle
>manufacturers and suppliers. No human welders are involved in the
>welding. I couldn't find much on Trek, but here's a vague description
>of what Giant Group is doing:
>"AI-Assisted Aluminum Manufacturing"
><https://www.giantgroup-cycling.com/en/technology01>
>
>Reminder: Since you want the frame built to your exact
>specifications, how is the assembly robot going to deal with changes
>in frame position and geometry when each frame is different?
>
>Also: I know you don't want to pay $7,500 for a frame. What price
>would you consider acceptable for an aluminum or steel frame
>robotically built to your exacting specifications? There are plenty
>of custom frame builders around. Have you asked anyone for an
>estimate?

Come now Jeff. Tommy doesn't have to ask anyone about anything as he
knows everything about everything! And yes the earth is flat, after
all if it is round like the fools argue the people down there in
Australia would all fall off.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/12/2023 5:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Robot Building Bike (Nov 2018):
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZU80O8C4Ns> (3:43)
> This was apparently taken at a trade show, not at the Luna Cycle
> factory. Luna Cycle makes eBikes, not human powered bicycles.

I'm surprised at the big pre-welding gaps between tubes, for example
where the top and down tubes meet the head tube and each other. I'd
expect those to be much tighter fits. Granted, it's nowhere near as
critical for TIG welding as it is for brazing, but still...

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 07:05:02 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 12:32:36?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 4:50:22?PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
>> >
>> > I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing for them.
>> Q: What is a fair price for a bike?
>> A: The price people are willing to pay and the competion allows.
>>
>> Lou
>
>Of course you're correct. But I designed so many products for medium to large scale production that I know what construction costs. If you're a mechanical engineer you should too in which case you know that I'm correct of frame building costs. I can set up the aluminum Trek assembly line so that they could turn out 500 bikes a day. And the only really skilled labor would be the heliarc welders.

Yes Tommy... your exploits grow ever day. A month, or so, ago you
announced that your investments had reached 1 million and then a few
days ago they had reached 2 million. And now you are designing
products for large scale production.

Will wonders never cease?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/12/2023 6:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/12/2023 5:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> Robot Building Bike (Nov 2018):
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZU80O8C4Ns>  (3:43)
>> This was apparently taken at a trade show, not at the Luna
>> Cycle
>> factory.  Luna Cycle makes eBikes, not human powered
>> bicycles.
>
> I'm surprised at the big pre-welding gaps between tubes, for
> example where the top and down tubes meet the head tube and
> each other. I'd expect those to be much tighter fits.
> Granted, it's nowhere near as critical for TIG welding as it
> is for brazing, but still...
>
I take apart quite a few steel joints and in my experience
contact area varies widely. People who care make full
contact miters but where cost is critical they are a simple
chop with poor fit.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:14:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/12/2023 5:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> Robot Building Bike (Nov 2018):
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZU80O8C4Ns> (3:43)
>> This was apparently taken at a trade show, not at the Luna Cycle
>> factory. Luna Cycle makes eBikes, not human powered bicycles.
>
>I'm surprised at the big pre-welding gaps between tubes, for example
>where the top and down tubes meet the head tube and each other. I'd
>expect those to be much tighter fits. Granted, it's nowhere near as
>critical for TIG welding as it is for brazing, but still...

That's what I do when I'm stick welding any metal that might move or
expand. If I started welding at one end of the joint, and progressed
towards the other end of the joint, I will always find myself with a
large gap or twist at the end of the weld. To avoid that problem,
it's common practice to tack weld the joint at convenient intervals to
keep thermal expansion from ruining the fit. Then there's a pause for
the parts to cool down, tack welds to harden, and parts reach thermal
equilibrium. The welder or robot then welds over a few tack welds,
and again stops to let the parts cool down. For the robot in the
video, it simply skipped to a different part of the frame while the
previous weld is cooling and hardening. When that's done, the robot
returns to the first series of tack welds, and welds the next series.
You can see it happen in the video.

"What Is a Tack Weld and What Are the Pros and Cons?"
<https://www.pemnet.com/company/pem-blog/what-is-a-tack-weld-and-what-are-the-pros-and-cons/>

Incidentally, I had exactly the same problem last week when I was
welding my wood burning stove back together. I had to MIG flux wire
weld a 13 inch long crack in the back of the stove.
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/EUknsZj8HBxa165w6>
For reasons unknown, the sides of the stove were made from 1/8" steel
plate, while the back was only 1/16". I didn't notice this and almost
burned a hole in the back plate. If you look at the photo carefully,
you might notice that the back plate was warped and had buckled. I
did that by overheating the stove and by failing to replace the
protective fire brick. To keep the warping and buckling from getting
worse, I had to tack weld along the crack every 1.5 inches starting
from the center of the crack. It was very difficult to pre-align the
two parts of the warped back plate.

Unfortunately, I was not doing very well with the flux welding. It
was a new welder and I hadn't practiced sufficiently. I messed up the
wire feed tension adjustment and the feed/voltage settings. I also
failed to remove the mill scale from the internal angle brackets. The
result was a really ugly weld:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/jxv8yp6ErtbsiXhW9>
I then made it worse by going over the joint twice. I was able to
inspect the opposite side of the back plate and determined that I had
sufficient penetration. It should hold together until next summer,
when I plan to tear it apart and try again.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 18:20:50 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:14:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 11/12/2023 5:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> Robot Building Bike (Nov 2018):
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZU80O8C4Ns> (3:43)
>>> This was apparently taken at a trade show, not at the Luna Cycle
>>> factory. Luna Cycle makes eBikes, not human powered bicycles.
>>
>>I'm surprised at the big pre-welding gaps between tubes, for example
>>where the top and down tubes meet the head tube and each other. I'd
>>expect those to be much tighter fits. Granted, it's nowhere near as
>>critical for TIG welding as it is for brazing, but still...
>
>That's what I do when I'm stick welding any metal that might move or
>expand. If I started welding at one end of the joint, and progressed
>towards the other end of the joint, I will always find myself with a
>large gap or twist at the end of the weld. To avoid that problem,
>it's common practice to tack weld the joint at convenient intervals to
>keep thermal expansion from ruining the fit. Then there's a pause for
>the parts to cool down, tack welds to harden, and parts reach thermal
>equilibrium. The welder or robot then welds over a few tack welds,
>and again stops to let the parts cool down. For the robot in the
>video, it simply skipped to a different part of the frame while the
>previous weld is cooling and hardening. When that's done, the robot
>returns to the first series of tack welds, and welds the next series.
>You can see it happen in the video.

The fellow in charge of the Welding Shop and I (Machine shop) were
going for coffee one day and he said, "Wait a minute, I've got to tell
this kid what to do - kid (newbe in the shop) who was working on a
project which partially entailed welding two 4' x 8' sheets of 1/2"
steel plate together on the long asepsis. So he tells the kid to space
then "about this far apart" and "Be Damned sure you tack them together
all the way before you start welding them!" And we go for coffee.

And of course we run into a couple of the other Shop Chiefs and we are
talking about this and that and we get back to our shop after,
probably a half hour, or maybe a bit longer, and of course the "kid"
knows more then his Shop Chief so he had simply spaced the sheets a
bit apart and started welding on one end... You can't even begin to
believe how much a 4 ft. wide slab of steel will warp horizontally
then you do that (:-)

>
>"What Is a Tack Weld and What Are the Pros and Cons?"
><https://www.pemnet.com/company/pem-blog/what-is-a-tack-weld-and-what-are-the-pros-and-cons/>
>
>Incidentally, I had exactly the same problem last week when I was
>welding my wood burning stove back together. I had to MIG flux wire
>weld a 13 inch long crack in the back of the stove.
><https://photos.app.goo.gl/EUknsZj8HBxa165w6>
>For reasons unknown, the sides of the stove were made from 1/8" steel
>plate, while the back was only 1/16". I didn't notice this and almost
>burned a hole in the back plate. If you look at the photo carefully,
>you might notice that the back plate was warped and had buckled. I
>did that by overheating the stove and by failing to replace the
>protective fire brick. To keep the warping and buckling from getting
>worse, I had to tack weld along the crack every 1.5 inches starting
>from the center of the crack. It was very difficult to pre-align the
>two parts of the warped back plate.
>
>Unfortunately, I was not doing very well with the flux welding. It
>was a new welder and I hadn't practiced sufficiently. I messed up the
>wire feed tension adjustment and the feed/voltage settings. I also
>failed to remove the mill scale from the internal angle brackets. The
>result was a really ugly weld:
><https://photos.app.goo.gl/jxv8yp6ErtbsiXhW9>
>I then made it worse by going over the joint twice. I was able to
>inspect the opposite side of the back plate and determined that I had
>sufficient penetration. It should hold together until next summer,
>when I plan to tear it apart and try again.

I was still in the Service when "Wire Welders" first came into use but
the last time I certified we still used TIG as the "wire welders"
weren't certified for aircraft welding at that time. But I did try one
in a civilian shop and my impression was that they weren't very
versatile. You get the rig all set up to weld, say 1/2" aluminum and
it works great but then try it on 1/16".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 8:37:44 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 4:12:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 4:26:27 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 12:59:38 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 3:35:52 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > > > John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > > > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > >>> On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > >>>> What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
> > > > > > that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing
> > > > > > and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a
> > > > > > bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or
> > > > > > aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super
> > > > > > lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now
> > > > > > building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or
> > > > > > lack of) of steel.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
> > > > > > can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like
> > > > > > running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike
> > > > > > automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling
> > > > > > over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at
> > > > > > all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic
> > > > > > glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to
> > > > > > friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on
> > > > > > the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal
> > > > > > but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that
> > > > > > manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing
> > > > > > for them.
> > > > > The idea that rim brakes are on par with disk in the wet, is ridiculous
> > > > > really.
> > > > >
> > > > > And equally the idea your going to rip out the hydraulic line, I guess it
> > > > > is possible but well into the improbable, after all MTB well crash fairly
> > > > > frequently, in unsurprising news they don’t spend there life replacing
> > > > > pipes and so on.
> > > > > >>> Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
> > > > > >>> processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
> > > > > >>> for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
> > > > > >>> utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
> > > > > >>> between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
> > > > > >>> over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
> > > > > >>> gravy train in most cases.
> > > > > >>> --
> > > > > >>> Andrew Muzi
> > > > > >>> a...@yellowjersey.org
> > > > > >>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which
> > > > > >> can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are forgetting the cost of labour. I read that minimum wages in
> > > > > > California are now $15.50/hour, $124/8 hour day.
> > > > > > Shanghai China the minimum is 24 yuan/hour, 192 yuan/day - about
> > > > > > $26.30, a day and in Thailand it is 354 baht, about $9.90 a day..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And when you add in the U.S., FICA, and other charges it makes an even
> > > > > > greater difference.
> > > > > Roger Merriman
> > > > I didn't say it would be common. I said that it could happen.
> > > The same chance of braking a cable on a well maintained bike with rim brakes. You may not like disk brake but don't come up with BS reasons.
> > > > And perhaps you think that disc brakes are better than rim brakes but when I can lock the brakes in RAIN with either that makes discs look like just another reason to buy a new bike.
> > > Nobody is forcing anyone to buy a new bike with disk brakes and a few people do.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Come on Lou, cyclists are the easiest people in the world to brain wash.. Then moved discs over to the road bikes not to improve braking which they don't do, but because it allowed them to make lighter deep carbon wheels and then after they sold everyone on that they are now making shallow carbon wheels "for cyclocross" and everyone if buying them despite the fact that almost no American rides cyclocross because it is nasty and muddy. Don't try to put a happy face on it - you can lock the wheels on properly adjusted rim brakes, wet or dry, and discs sell only because the pro racers use them and a large segment of them don't like them but ride them because of their contracts.
> I rate my brakes in wet/dry and alu/cf rims as follows:
>
> Rimbrake on alu rims in dry conditions: 100%
> Rimbrake on alu rims in wet conditions: 90%
> Rimbrake on cf rims in dry condions: 60%
> Rimbrake on cf rims in wet conditions: 30%
>
> Diskbrake with alu rims in dry conditions: 100%
> Diskbrake with alu rims in wet conditions: 95%
> Diskbrake with cf rims in dry conditions: 100%
> Diskbrake with cf rims in wet conditions: 95%
>
> For me this means I don’t ride my rimbrake aero bike with cf rims in the wet and my climbing bike with rimbrakes and alu rime is tiring in long descents in the wet.
>
> Lou
I used the rim brakes that came with the carbon fiber rims and they were probably below 50% wet or dry. But after I changed to Campagnolo carbon pads they became about 100% in all conditions but I may have begun braking a little earlier because of my experience with the provided brake shoes.

You have to remember, that people react differently in different conditions without realizing it. But I could lock the wheels with rim brakes on carbon wheels before I converted to carbon aero wheels with aluminum brake surfaces like the Campy Bella and the Profile wheels.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/204281599078?hash=item2f9021d466:g:TbMAAOSwIFtaTJqc&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0Jn9fGS4GnxcIVtnMfV%2BV4VlQv%2Bhhrcr4p3DIU2fVsYONgGzaXSWt3lhkLNfoEVjuHw0lvL1fZq2QwJOuqHR6SMJQYQ6821kJFbkFOmTuWUPGxEMwmjP1BGRp7765z01lFdJIH4%2F8w0Q5ohhQ7fjU1JWvEMq3Mtu7FA630NGAMxeURCFKhmuXBsHEQXjBFK5z8swzr5IhhVry6%2BgC14XtzxuHnNKtA5nzXcMVfmMHYp0CyBa44LWpjS7FsH0h1rW0uQ4UmqMhfqpX2ZQ1ypUYj8%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5ax14v4Yg

On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 8:57:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/12/2023 10:05 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 7:22:19 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 11/11/2023 6:07 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:55:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>> What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing for them.
> >>>>>> Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
> >>>>>> processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
> >>>>>> for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
> >>>>>> utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
> >>>>>> between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
> >>>>>> over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
> >>>>>> gravy train in most cases.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
> >>>>
> >>>> Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
> >>>> automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
> >>>> millions of dollars.
> >>>
> >>> Automated machinery is an interesting subject. Years ago I did some
> >>> surveys for a U.S. consulting firm and visited the Toyota factory
> >>> here. They had just installed a new automated welding machine that
> >>> (from memory) welded axle housings into the deferential housing. I
> >>> made a comment about how it must be cheaper then employing skilled
> >>> welders and they replied, "Yes. And it makes perfect welds every
> >>> time".
> >> And does it 24 hours per day, every day, exactly the same.
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> a...@yellowjersey.org
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > #1 John is a pure unadulterated bullshiter. Anyone that would hire him to "consult" on anything couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.
> > #2 Why would Toyota weld the axle housing onto the differential case when the majority of the production is 4 wheel drive which requires a hinged connection? Do you suppose they only automate the single wheel drive assembly line? There are little roads in Africa and China where a large part of their production goes.
> > #3 Welding an axle casing to the differential housing could hardly be called automation at all since it is nothing more than automating the actual welding (which can be easily done with resistance) and the turning of the initial connection would probably be done by a human welder anyway. I haven't looked under a car in years but the older cars use to pressure form the steel axle housing and then bolt is onto the differential case. This would far more easily be automated for production. And it gives direct and not indirect access to the differential.
> >
> > This all had to do with automating bicycle construction. Metal construction is a snap. Clarence Witt built the bikes for his racing team and as a custom builder, it took more time to get the measurements from his team riders than building the bikes in the back of the shop. Production bikes all have standard sizes meaning that cutting the tube lengths are normally done AT THE TUBING manufacturer because otherwise you would be cutting off the butting or in the case of aluminum - you would be destroying the pressure forming.
> >
> > All the bike manufacturer is doing is cutting the crescent ends and brazing. Brazing is an art but it can be learned in a day or two and most mistakes can be fixed by a competent brazier. So braziers are cheap.
> That's not even remotely right.
>
> Tubes are delivered as cylinders and any miters are cut as
> needed for each job (or each series).
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth8.jpg
>
> Miters can be damned-near-perfect or merely approximate [1]
> by automated milling machine or by hand. Here's an original
> factory tube and my replacement for example:
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/hk20f.jpg
>
> Automated process for brazed joints (often induction
> fixture, not flame) is very old technology (~100 years).
> Trek was using it in the 1980s (back when they made steel
> frames in USA) to successfully lower payroll expense.
>
> https://www.ambrell.com/blog/the-evolution-and-history-of-induction-heating-part-1
>
> p.s. Premium tube was once stamped with manufacturer, model
> and gauge at the butt[2] end.
>
> https://static.wixstatic.com/media/9e2024_61edb531bb8f4a2599776ad36a82c462~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_566,h_424,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/9e2024_61edb531bb8f4a2599776ad36a82c462~mv2.jpg
>
> https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1333/img_0278_97b8ba6a48126aea2c57293187e86512ce257f50.jpg
>
> Modern tube has a paint smear (gauges noted by color) on the
> butt end. At any rate a tape measure finds the tube midpoint
> and resting the tube there shows which end is thicker or
> which butt is longer. This is not rocket science. Even
> automated systems do it.
>
> [1] as with anything else time is money, tooling is money,
> skilled operator attention is money, etc.
> [2]or longer butt for DB tube
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andrew, I have no idea of what you think that you're talking about. I have watched many custom houses like Eisentraut and Bontrager building bikes. They were building rather large amounts of semi-custom bikes and they were NOT using induction heating. And construction was VERY rapid. Bontrager in particular and a machinist (a very good friend of mine) who would cut the miters which were different for each size bike and these had to be carefully cut so as not to cut too much off of the butting since that was the thickest part of the tube.

My present best friend went to be measured in person at Tommasini in Italy and his and his wife's bikes were built save for paint in a day. His bikes were steel lugged but he watched the Fire X being built as rapidly. My Moser Leader AX has a brazed frame and FORK that is a very good riding bike though it only accommodates 25 mm tires. I carefully retightened the fork on my Tommasini Fire and it now rides nearly perfectly. This bike doesn't have lugs but is brazed together at the joints and filled smooth. I imagine they use a disc sander to accomplish that. They are turning out hundreds of steel bikes a month.

And the carbon fiber bikes are almost as fast since all they have to do is cut the TPU forms a little differently.

Too bad that Lou didn't suggest I check that spacing screw on the front derailleur before I cut the braze-on off of the Ridley. But the adapter works perfect and it hasn't moved in the slightest. Though the rear derailleur fine adjust doesn't see to be easily adjusted.

But we seem to be having a lot of disagreements that have to do with nothing at all. I was left with the idea that Lou's speed drop had to do with something very specific until he said that the only other sensor he was using was his heart rate monitor. So his speed drop on his overpass was nothing more than radio interference. Aircraft approach radios could be possible source for that. Of being near a cell phone tower which is half the ANT+ frequency so can interfere with the ANT signal. (here's where Liebermann tells us that isn't possible because he has so much experience as an engineer)

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:29:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Of being near a cell phone tower which is half the ANT+ frequency so can interfere with the ANT signal. (here's where Liebermann tells us that isn't possible because he has so much experience as an engineer)

Fix your Ouija board, abacus or slide rule. ANT+ and BLE operate
between 2400 and 2483.5 MHz. There are now many cellular bands. The
only band for the Netherlands that is even close to 1/2 the ANT+
frequencies is the LTE B20 (800 DD) on 791-821 MHz for downlink and
832-962 MHz for uplink. Neither band has a 2nd harmonic that falls in
the ANT+ range.
<https://www.frequencycheck.com/bands/lte-band-20-800-dd>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 5:29:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 8:57:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 11/12/2023 10:05 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 7:22:19 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 11/11/2023 6:07 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:55:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>> On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>> On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>>> What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing for them.
> > >>>>>> Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
> > >>>>>> processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
> > >>>>>> for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
> > >>>>>> utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
> > >>>>>> between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
> > >>>>>> over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
> > >>>>>> gravy train in most cases.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
> > >>>> automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
> > >>>> millions of dollars.
> > >>>
> > >>> Automated machinery is an interesting subject. Years ago I did some
> > >>> surveys for a U.S. consulting firm and visited the Toyota factory
> > >>> here. They had just installed a new automated welding machine that
> > >>> (from memory) welded axle housings into the deferential housing. I
> > >>> made a comment about how it must be cheaper then employing skilled
> > >>> welders and they replied, "Yes. And it makes perfect welds every
> > >>> time".
> > >> And does it 24 hours per day, every day, exactly the same.
> > >> --
> > >> Andrew Muzi
> > >> a...@yellowjersey.org
> > >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > >
> > > #1 John is a pure unadulterated bullshiter. Anyone that would hire him to "consult" on anything couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.
> > > #2 Why would Toyota weld the axle housing onto the differential case when the majority of the production is 4 wheel drive which requires a hinged connection? Do you suppose they only automate the single wheel drive assembly line? There are little roads in Africa and China where a large part of their production goes.
> > > #3 Welding an axle casing to the differential housing could hardly be called automation at all since it is nothing more than automating the actual welding (which can be easily done with resistance) and the turning of the initial connection would probably be done by a human welder anyway. I haven't looked under a car in years but the older cars use to pressure form the steel axle housing and then bolt is onto the differential case. This would far more easily be automated for production. And it gives direct and not indirect access to the differential.
> > >
> > > This all had to do with automating bicycle construction. Metal construction is a snap. Clarence Witt built the bikes for his racing team and as a custom builder, it took more time to get the measurements from his team riders than building the bikes in the back of the shop. Production bikes all have standard sizes meaning that cutting the tube lengths are normally done AT THE TUBING manufacturer because otherwise you would be cutting off the butting or in the case of aluminum - you would be destroying the pressure forming.
> > >
> > > All the bike manufacturer is doing is cutting the crescent ends and brazing. Brazing is an art but it can be learned in a day or two and most mistakes can be fixed by a competent brazier. So braziers are cheap.
> > That's not even remotely right.
> >
> > Tubes are delivered as cylinders and any miters are cut as
> > needed for each job (or each series).
> >
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth8.jpg
> >
> > Miters can be damned-near-perfect or merely approximate [1]
> > by automated milling machine or by hand. Here's an original
> > factory tube and my replacement for example:
> >
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/hk20f.jpg
> >
> > Automated process for brazed joints (often induction
> > fixture, not flame) is very old technology (~100 years).
> > Trek was using it in the 1980s (back when they made steel
> > frames in USA) to successfully lower payroll expense.
> >
> > https://www.ambrell.com/blog/the-evolution-and-history-of-induction-heating-part-1
> >
> > p.s. Premium tube was once stamped with manufacturer, model
> > and gauge at the butt[2] end.
> >
> > https://static.wixstatic.com/media/9e2024_61edb531bb8f4a2599776ad36a82c462~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_566,h_424,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/9e2024_61edb531bb8f4a2599776ad36a82c462~mv2.jpg
> >
> > https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1333/img_0278_97b8ba6a48126aea2c57293187e86512ce257f50.jpg
> >
> > Modern tube has a paint smear (gauges noted by color) on the
> > butt end. At any rate a tape measure finds the tube midpoint
> > and resting the tube there shows which end is thicker or
> > which butt is longer. This is not rocket science. Even
> > automated systems do it.
> >
> > [1] as with anything else time is money, tooling is money,
> > skilled operator attention is money, etc.
> > [2]or longer butt for DB tube
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > a...@yellowjersey.org
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971

>
> But we seem to be having a lot of disagreements that have to do with nothing at all. I was left with the idea that Lou's speed drop had to do with something very specific until he said that the only other sensor he was using was his heart rate monitor. So his speed drop on his overpass was nothing more than radio interference. Aircraft approach radios could be possible source for that. Of being near a cell phone tower which is half the ANT+ frequency so can interfere with the ANT signal. (here's where Liebermann tells us that isn't possible because he has so much experience as an engineer)

Nope, I told you I use a speedsensor, a HRM, a power meter, a Di2 wireless sensor and a Garmin rearlight/radar on that bike but no specific cadance sensor. They all work fine on that spot except the speedsensor. My troubleshooting capabilities say that it has something to do with a disrupted magnetic field. How I don’t know.

Lou

On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 1:19:56 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 5:29:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 8:57:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 11/12/2023 10:05 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 7:22:19 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >> On 11/11/2023 6:07 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > >>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:55:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > >>>>> On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>>>>> On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > >>>>>>> What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing for them.
> > > >>>>>> Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
> > > >>>>>> processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
> > > >>>>>> for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
> > > >>>>>> utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
> > > >>>>>> between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
> > > >>>>>> over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
> > > >>>>>> gravy train in most cases.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
> > > >>>> automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
> > > >>>> millions of dollars.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Automated machinery is an interesting subject. Years ago I did some
> > > >>> surveys for a U.S. consulting firm and visited the Toyota factory
> > > >>> here. They had just installed a new automated welding machine that
> > > >>> (from memory) welded axle housings into the deferential housing. I
> > > >>> made a comment about how it must be cheaper then employing skilled
> > > >>> welders and they replied, "Yes. And it makes perfect welds every
> > > >>> time".
> > > >> And does it 24 hours per day, every day, exactly the same.
> > > >> --
> > > >> Andrew Muzi
> > > >> a...@yellowjersey.org
> > > >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > >
> > > > #1 John is a pure unadulterated bullshiter. Anyone that would hire him to "consult" on anything couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.
> > > > #2 Why would Toyota weld the axle housing onto the differential case when the majority of the production is 4 wheel drive which requires a hinged connection? Do you suppose they only automate the single wheel drive assembly line? There are little roads in Africa and China where a large part of their production goes.
> > > > #3 Welding an axle casing to the differential housing could hardly be called automation at all since it is nothing more than automating the actual welding (which can be easily done with resistance) and the turning of the initial connection would probably be done by a human welder anyway. I haven't looked under a car in years but the older cars use to pressure form the steel axle housing and then bolt is onto the differential case. This would far more easily be automated for production. And it gives direct and not indirect access to the differential.
> > > >
> > > > This all had to do with automating bicycle construction. Metal construction is a snap. Clarence Witt built the bikes for his racing team and as a custom builder, it took more time to get the measurements from his team riders than building the bikes in the back of the shop. Production bikes all have standard sizes meaning that cutting the tube lengths are normally done AT THE TUBING manufacturer because otherwise you would be cutting off the butting or in the case of aluminum - you would be destroying the pressure forming.
> > > >
> > > > All the bike manufacturer is doing is cutting the crescent ends and brazing. Brazing is an art but it can be learned in a day or two and most mistakes can be fixed by a competent brazier. So braziers are cheap.
> > > That's not even remotely right.
> > >
> > > Tubes are delivered as cylinders and any miters are cut as
> > > needed for each job (or each series).
> > >
> > > http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth8.jpg
> > >
> > > Miters can be damned-near-perfect or merely approximate [1]
> > > by automated milling machine or by hand. Here's an original
> > > factory tube and my replacement for example:
> > >
> > > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/hk20f.jpg
> > >
> > > Automated process for brazed joints (often induction
> > > fixture, not flame) is very old technology (~100 years).
> > > Trek was using it in the 1980s (back when they made steel
> > > frames in USA) to successfully lower payroll expense.
> > >
> > > https://www.ambrell.com/blog/the-evolution-and-history-of-induction-heating-part-1
> > >
> > > p.s. Premium tube was once stamped with manufacturer, model
> > > and gauge at the butt[2] end.
> > >
> > > https://static.wixstatic.com/media/9e2024_61edb531bb8f4a2599776ad36a82c462~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_566,h_424,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/9e2024_61edb531bb8f4a2599776ad36a82c462~mv2.jpg
> > >
> > > https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1333/img_0278_97b8ba6a48126aea2c57293187e86512ce257f50.jpg
> > >
> > > Modern tube has a paint smear (gauges noted by color) on the
> > > butt end. At any rate a tape measure finds the tube midpoint
> > > and resting the tube there shows which end is thicker or
> > > which butt is longer. This is not rocket science. Even
> > > automated systems do it.
> > >
> > > [1] as with anything else time is money, tooling is money,
> > > skilled operator attention is money, etc.
> > > [2]or longer butt for DB tube
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muzi
> > > a...@yellowjersey.org
> > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> >
> > But we seem to be having a lot of disagreements that have to do with nothing at all. I was left with the idea that Lou's speed drop had to do with something very specific until he said that the only other sensor he was using was his heart rate monitor. So his speed drop on his overpass was nothing more than radio interference. Aircraft approach radios could be possible source for that. Of being near a cell phone tower which is half the ANT+ frequency so can interfere with the ANT signal. (here's where Liebermann tells us that isn't possible because he has so much experience as an engineer)
> Nope, I told you I use a speedsensor, a HRM, a power meter, a Di2 wireless sensor and a Garmin rearlight/radar on that bike but no specific cadance sensor. They all work fine on that spot except the speedsensor. My troubleshooting capabilities say that it has something to do with a disrupted magnetic field. How I don’t know.
>
> Lou

Lou, in all likelihood you wouldn't notice any change in anything but your speed reading. Radio interference doesn't have to be exactly on same frequency as ANT+ and the encoding of signals and the reaction to dead spots can be different from sensor to sensor. Something like a cell tower can block ALL radio signals up close as could aircraft landing radio and radar. Would you notice a drop in your heart rate if you were looking at your speed? The speed sensor is most likely to fall with interference blocking the very short range of ANT+. There is always the possibility that you have some sort of serious magnetic anomaly at that point but I would doubt it given all of the other problems with low power transmissions.

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 13:52:53 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Lou, in all likelihood you wouldn't notice any change in anything but your speed reading. Radio interference doesn't have to be exactly on same frequency as ANT+ and the encoding of signals and the reaction to dead spots can be different from sensor to sensor. Something like a cell tower can block ALL radio signals up close as could aircraft landing radio and radar. Would you notice a drop in your heart rate if you were looking at your speed? The speed sensor is most likely to fall with interference blocking the very short range of ANT+. There is always the possibility that you have some sort of serious magnetic anomaly at that point but I would doubt it given all of the other problems with low power transmissions.

Nope. Even the commodity smartphone can transmit on a wide variety of
cellular bands while simultaneously moving data on the
Wi-Fi/BlueTooth/BLE/ANT+ band(s). If there was any interaction, we
would hear customers and organizations complain to the FCC for
regulatory relief. Ligado (formerly LightSquared) is a good example
of what can happen if interference is discovered:
"New 5G exemption may jam GPS devices" (Aug 2020)
<https://pubs.aip.org/physicstoday/article/73/8/22/856803/New-5G-exemption-may-jam-GPS-devicesOpposition-in>

The term "blocking" has a very specific meaning when discussing RF
system. It refers to the reduction in receiver sensitivity when a
very strong, off frequency, nearby transmitter causes the receiver
front end amplifier to rectify this strong signal. That changes the
bias on the active input devices, which eventually causes a reduction
in receiver sensitivity, BER (bit error rate) or both. The safest
place to avoid such a problem is directly under the cell tower, where
the radiation from the antennas on the tower are minimal.

>There are so likely for errors to occur that SRAM and Shimano wireless use their own protocols and power levels.

Really? Do SRAM and Shimano really have their very own BLE and ANT+
protocols? For power levels, can they simply ignore the government
regulatory bodies (FCC and Conformité Européenne) and contrive their
own power levels? I don't think so. So where do I find a copy of the
proprietary SRAM and Shimano BLE and ANT+ protocols?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 23:35:48 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
>>>>> that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing
>>>>> and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a
>>>>> bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or
>>>>> aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super
>>>>> lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now
>>>>> building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or
>>>>> lack of) of steel.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
>>>>> can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like
>>>>> running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike
>>>>> automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling
>>>>> over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at
>>>>> all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic
>>>>> glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to
>>>>> friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on
>>>>> the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal
>>>>> but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that
>>>>> manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing
>>>>> for them.
>>>>
>>>> The idea that rim brakes are on par with disk in the wet, is ridiculous
>>>> really.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not so sure about that, if you limit it to "in the wet" as I had a
>>> bike with "V brakes" that would lock either or both wheels coasting
>>> down a hill in the rain. At probably 25 or so kph (I was afraid to
>>> lock up the wheels and skid at a faster speed).
>>>
>> The kids locally use there trainers to near lock the rear wheel, down the
>> local near vertical hill.
>>
>> I can if if wish (but why?) lock the wheels on the MTB and by that I do
>> mean lock the wheels not simply slow or reach tip over point.
>
> The point is that if you can stop the wheel from turning you have
> applied all the stopping force that the bicycle is capable of
> providing and stopping then becomes a matter of the tires and the
> pavement. Or the mud I suppose (:-)
>
>>
>>> And "on a par" is again a rather nebulas statement. In somewhere
>>> approaching 50 years of riding on a bicycle I can only remember one
>>> really, truly, emergency stop. With rim, probably side pull, brakes I
>>> was in traffic and a taxi stopped in front of me. Cars on both side so
>>> couldn't turn to avoid the taxi. I grabbed the brakes and the rear
>>> wheel came off the ground which scared me even more, I eased up on the
>>> brakes and hit the taxi although at a much slower speed.
>>>
>>> Note that I'm being very specific in my comments here. If you want to
>>> go wandering off in the muck and mire then perhaps discs are superior.
>>> I really don't know as I figure that as the Highway Gods have given us
>>> paved roads I'll use them.
>>
>> A awful lot of my riding is on tarmac, even so disks are useful as ever not
>> needed but a nice want, for the commute it’s a lot easier and less
>> maintenance, on the gravel bike even on paved roads, fair bit more control
>> and power, again that’s like rather than need.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> This "less maintenance" thing is, honestly, rather puzzling. I've been
> riding with rim brakes for somewhere in the region of 40 years or
> maybe longer and I can't remember ever having and problems with
> brakes. Nor, for that matter with bicycles in general, after all they
> are a rather simple mechanical device.
>
> As for more control and power? How is it possible to have more power
> then stopping the wheel from turning? And control? What does that
> mean" You can go down a hill safely? I was going down hills safely
> when I was 12 years old with nothing but a rear wheel "coaster"brake.

In the same way that Tom’s unbelievable top speeds, the idea that in the
dry your locking wheels with rims and sliding down the road wheels locked
even with something as woefully grippy as Gatorskins isn’t believable,
being able to get the rear to start to scrub is one thing and to feel the
bike start to endo is one thing locking is another all together.

Roger Merriman

On Wednesday, November 15, 2023 at 5:29:18 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 23:35:48 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>> What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
> >>>>> that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing
> >>>>> and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a
> >>>>> bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or
> >>>>> aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super
> >>>>> lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now
> >>>>> building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or
> >>>>> lack of) of steel.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
> >>>>> can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like
> >>>>> running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike
> >>>>> automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling
> >>>>> over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at
> >>>>> all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic
> >>>>> glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to
> >>>>> friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on
> >>>>> the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal
> >>>>> but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that
> >>>>> manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing
> >>>>> for them.
> >>>>
> >>>> The idea that rim brakes are on par with disk in the wet, is ridiculous
> >>>> really.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I'm not so sure about that, if you limit it to "in the wet" as I had a
> >>> bike with "V brakes" that would lock either or both wheels coasting
> >>> down a hill in the rain. At probably 25 or so kph (I was afraid to
> >>> lock up the wheels and skid at a faster speed).
> >>>
> >> The kids locally use there trainers to near lock the rear wheel, down the
> >> local near vertical hill.
> >>
> >> I can if if wish (but why?) lock the wheels on the MTB and by that I do
> >> mean lock the wheels not simply slow or reach tip over point.
> >
> > The point is that if you can stop the wheel from turning you have
> > applied all the stopping force that the bicycle is capable of
> > providing and stopping then becomes a matter of the tires and the
> > pavement. Or the mud I suppose (:-)
> >
> >>
> >>> And "on a par" is again a rather nebulas statement. In somewhere
> >>> approaching 50 years of riding on a bicycle I can only remember one
> >>> really, truly, emergency stop. With rim, probably side pull, brakes I
> >>> was in traffic and a taxi stopped in front of me. Cars on both side so
> >>> couldn't turn to avoid the taxi. I grabbed the brakes and the rear
> >>> wheel came off the ground which scared me even more, I eased up on the
> >>> brakes and hit the taxi although at a much slower speed.
> >>>
> >>> Note that I'm being very specific in my comments here. If you want to
> >>> go wandering off in the muck and mire then perhaps discs are superior..
> >>> I really don't know as I figure that as the Highway Gods have given us
> >>> paved roads I'll use them.
> >>
> >> A awful lot of my riding is on tarmac, even so disks are useful as ever not
> >> needed but a nice want, for the commute it’s a lot easier and less
> >> maintenance, on the gravel bike even on paved roads, fair bit more control
> >> and power, again that’s like rather than need.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >
> > This "less maintenance" thing is, honestly, rather puzzling. I've been
> > riding with rim brakes for somewhere in the region of 40 years or
> > maybe longer and I can't remember ever having and problems with
> > brakes. Nor, for that matter with bicycles in general, after all they
> > are a rather simple mechanical device.
> >
> > As for more control and power? How is it possible to have more power
> > then stopping the wheel from turning? And control? What does that
> > mean" You can go down a hill safely? I was going down hills safely
> > when I was 12 years old with nothing but a rear wheel "coaster"brake.
>
> In the same way that Tom’s unbelievable top speeds, the idea that in the
> dry your locking wheels with rims and sliding down the road wheels locked
> even with something as woefully grippy as Gatorskins isn’t believable,
> being able to get the rear to start to scrub is one thing and to feel the
> bike start to endo is one thing locking is another all together.
>
> Roger Merriman

I explained that my recorded speed turned out to be forgetting to turn my Garmin off when returning from the ride, we returned via a car. I haven't the slightest idea of where you ride but a 10% grade is more than enough to ride more than 60 mph and pro's do it all of the time in the proper conditions.

One of the things that I have done MANY times in my riding career is lock the front wheel completely. I even have to be careful not to do this in several places in the immediate area. There is a drop down Golf Links Rd that at the bottom intersection with Foothill Rd., you have to apply the brakes so hard at the 18% grade that you can EASILY lock the front wheel and have to be careful not to.

Really, you are giving me the idea that you don't ride the road at all.

On 11/15/2023 8:29 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> In the same way that Tom’s unbelievable top speeds, the idea that in the
> dry your locking wheels with rims and sliding down the road wheels locked
> even with something as woefully grippy as Gatorskins isn’t believable...

Agreed. With anything resembling a normal single bicycle, it's
physically impossible.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/15/2023 11:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> One of the things that I have done MANY times in my riding career is lock the front wheel completely. I even have to be careful not to do this in several places in the immediate area. There is a drop down Golf Links Rd that at the bottom intersection with Foothill Rd., you have to apply the brakes so hard at the 18% grade that you can EASILY lock the front wheel and have to be careful not to.

You lock your front wheel while on dry pavement on a steep downhill and
you don't go over the bars?

No way.

If you're sure, despite physics, please get a friend to video you as you
demonstrate. It would benefit the discussion group.

--
- Frank Krygowski