On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 20:47:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 12/7/2023 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> Frank's statement doesn't make much sense although it probably does
>> prevent right hook crashes.
>>
>> But "Lane center"? The roads I ride on are 4 to 6 lane with traffic
>> in the 100 - 120 KPH range with, some times, long lines of trucks,
>> some of which are truck with trailer and two 40 ft shipping containers
>> loaded, a total load of, perhaps, 67 tons plus the 17 tons of truck
>> and trailer, a total gross weight of 85 tons, coming down the hill at
>> 100 KPH. Yes Sir! A really great idea! Ride right out in the middle of
>> the lane! Gives the guy a good excuse to check his brakes.
>
>I ride on residential streets, fairly quiet country roads, city and
>suburban arterials and other city streets. On any of those, I share the
>lane with motor vehicles when I decide its safe. In my state "safe" is
>legally defined as a minimum three feet of clearance. In the next state
>(the border's about five miles away) it's defined as four feet of clearance.
>
>Let's do some math. On my bike, I'm roughly two feet wide. Three feet
>minimum legal clearance puts the right mirror of a passing vehicle at
>least five feet from the road's edge even if I'm riding just a foot from
>the lane's edge. My small car is about 7 feet wide including mirrors,
>but trucks can legally be 8.5 feet wide.
>
>By state law, I do not have to share a lane that's too narrow to safely
>share. Almost all lanes, by my measurements (yes, I've checked) are less
>than 12 feet wide.
>
>Do the math. (I can help, if you need it.) Then tell me what _you_ would
>do when riding in a ten foot lane when an 8.5 foot truck comes up behind
>you.
>
>I've asked that question of you a dozen times over the years. You, John,
>have never had the courage or honesty to answer.
>
>What I do is ride at lane center, as the law allows. I've done it
>countless times, whether the approaching vehicle has been a private car,
>a dump truck, a tractor trailer rig, a police car or whatever. I've
>never been run over, never been ticketed.
>
>Maybe this will help: https://youtu.be/rVMCz7UJZvM Pay special
>attention at 1:10
>
>Again, 10 foot lane, 8.5 foot truck. What would _you_ do? Ride only on a
>bike path? Pull over every time a car approaches? What would you do?

If it was me, I'd be in my car or my truck so it wouldn't be a
problem.

On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 04:22:10 -0500, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 20:47:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 12/7/2023 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> Frank's statement doesn't make much sense although it probably does
>>> prevent right hook crashes.
>>>
>>> But "Lane center"? The roads I ride on are 4 to 6 lane with traffic
>>> in the 100 - 120 KPH range with, some times, long lines of trucks,
>>> some of which are truck with trailer and two 40 ft shipping containers
>>> loaded, a total load of, perhaps, 67 tons plus the 17 tons of truck
>>> and trailer, a total gross weight of 85 tons, coming down the hill at
>>> 100 KPH. Yes Sir! A really great idea! Ride right out in the middle of
>>> the lane! Gives the guy a good excuse to check his brakes.
>>
>>I ride on residential streets, fairly quiet country roads, city and
>>suburban arterials and other city streets. On any of those, I share the
>>lane with motor vehicles when I decide its safe. In my state "safe" is
>>legally defined as a minimum three feet of clearance. In the next state
>>(the border's about five miles away) it's defined as four feet of clearance.
>>
>>Let's do some math. On my bike, I'm roughly two feet wide. Three feet
>>minimum legal clearance puts the right mirror of a passing vehicle at
>>least five feet from the road's edge even if I'm riding just a foot from
>>the lane's edge. My small car is about 7 feet wide including mirrors,
>>but trucks can legally be 8.5 feet wide.
>>
>>By state law, I do not have to share a lane that's too narrow to safely
>>share. Almost all lanes, by my measurements (yes, I've checked) are less
>>than 12 feet wide.
>>
>>Do the math. (I can help, if you need it.) Then tell me what _you_ would
>>do when riding in a ten foot lane when an 8.5 foot truck comes up behind
>>you.
>>
>>I've asked that question of you a dozen times over the years. You, John,
>>have never had the courage or honesty to answer.
>>
>>What I do is ride at lane center, as the law allows. I've done it
>>countless times, whether the approaching vehicle has been a private car,
>>a dump truck, a tractor trailer rig, a police car or whatever. I've
>>never been run over, never been ticketed.
>>
>>Maybe this will help: https://youtu.be/rVMCz7UJZvM Pay special
>>attention at 1:10
>>
>>Again, 10 foot lane, 8.5 foot truck. What would _you_ do? Ride only on a
>>bike path? Pull over every time a car approaches? What would you do?
>
> If it was me, I'd be in my car or my truck so it wouldn't be a
>problem.

Ah yes, Frankie telling us how to do it. From his description he rides
on totally different roads then we have here. The last time we came
back from Bangkok we passed a line of BIG trucks coming down a long
hill and going, probably, 100 kmh, nose to tail and by our speedometer
a 1 kilometer long line.

But pictures tell it like it really is.

Example (1) Highway
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2097959/heavy-traffic-in-korat-as-songkran-trips-begin
Note the motorcycle riding safely on both sides of the motor vehicle
lanes.

Example (2) City
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=w3i0X6VGHO8
Note, no bicycles a few small motorcycles which can keep up with
traffic.

Both the above were taken on the same highway, the first slightly
after leaving the city and the second slightly after entering the
city.

Now, once again, "Riding in the middle of the lane is good!) (or would
that be spelled d-e-a-d)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 17:33:05 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 04:22:10 -0500, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 20:47:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On 12/7/2023 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Frank's statement doesn't make much sense although it probably does
>>>> prevent right hook crashes.
>>>>
>>>> But "Lane center"? The roads I ride on are 4 to 6 lane with traffic
>>>> in the 100 - 120 KPH range with, some times, long lines of trucks,
>>>> some of which are truck with trailer and two 40 ft shipping containers
>>>> loaded, a total load of, perhaps, 67 tons plus the 17 tons of truck
>>>> and trailer, a total gross weight of 85 tons, coming down the hill at
>>>> 100 KPH. Yes Sir! A really great idea! Ride right out in the middle of
>>>> the lane! Gives the guy a good excuse to check his brakes.
>>>
>>>I ride on residential streets, fairly quiet country roads, city and
>>>suburban arterials and other city streets. On any of those, I share the
>>>lane with motor vehicles when I decide its safe. In my state "safe" is
>>>legally defined as a minimum three feet of clearance. In the next state
>>>(the border's about five miles away) it's defined as four feet of clearance.
>>>
>>>Let's do some math. On my bike, I'm roughly two feet wide. Three feet
>>>minimum legal clearance puts the right mirror of a passing vehicle at
>>>least five feet from the road's edge even if I'm riding just a foot from
>>>the lane's edge. My small car is about 7 feet wide including mirrors,
>>>but trucks can legally be 8.5 feet wide.
>>>
>>>By state law, I do not have to share a lane that's too narrow to safely
>>>share. Almost all lanes, by my measurements (yes, I've checked) are less
>>>than 12 feet wide.
>>>
>>>Do the math. (I can help, if you need it.) Then tell me what _you_ would
>>>do when riding in a ten foot lane when an 8.5 foot truck comes up behind
>>>you.
>>>
>>>I've asked that question of you a dozen times over the years. You, John,
>>>have never had the courage or honesty to answer.
>>>
>>>What I do is ride at lane center, as the law allows. I've done it
>>>countless times, whether the approaching vehicle has been a private car,
>>>a dump truck, a tractor trailer rig, a police car or whatever. I've
>>>never been run over, never been ticketed.
>>>
>>>Maybe this will help: https://youtu.be/rVMCz7UJZvM Pay special
>>>attention at 1:10
>>>
>>>Again, 10 foot lane, 8.5 foot truck. What would _you_ do? Ride only on a
>>>bike path? Pull over every time a car approaches? What would you do?
>>
>> If it was me, I'd be in my car or my truck so it wouldn't be a
>>problem.
>
>Ah yes, Frankie telling us how to do it. From his description he rides
>on totally different roads then we have here. The last time we came
>back from Bangkok we passed a line of BIG trucks coming down a long
>hill and going, probably, 100 kmh, nose to tail and by our speedometer
>a 1 kilometer long line.
>
>But pictures tell it like it really is.
>
>Example (1) Highway
>https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2097959/heavy-traffic-in-korat-as-songkran-trips-begin
>Note the motorcycle riding safely on both sides of the motor vehicle
>lanes.
>
>Example (2) City
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=w3i0X6VGHO8
>Note, no bicycles a few small motorcycles which can keep up with
>traffic.
>
>Both the above were taken on the same highway, the first slightly
>after leaving the city and the second slightly after entering the
>city.
>
>Now, once again, "Riding in the middle of the lane is good!) (or would
>that be spelled d-e-a-d)

I cannot think of a single reason why I would put myself in that
position on a road where the traffic was too heavy to allow the
vehicles to easily go around me.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 12/7/2023 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> Frank's statement doesn't make much sense although it probably does
>> prevent right hook crashes.
>>
>> But "Lane center"? The roads I ride on are 4 to 6 lane with traffic
>> in the 100 - 120 KPH range with, some times, long lines of trucks,
>> some of which are truck with trailer and two 40 ft shipping containers
>> loaded, a total load of, perhaps, 67 tons plus the 17 tons of truck
>> and trailer, a total gross weight of 85 tons, coming down the hill at
>> 100 KPH. Yes Sir! A really great idea! Ride right out in the middle of
>> the lane! Gives the guy a good excuse to check his brakes.
>
> I ride on residential streets, fairly quiet country roads, city and
> suburban arterials and other city streets. On any of those, I share the
> lane with motor vehicles when I decide its safe. In my state "safe" is
> legally defined as a minimum three feet of clearance. In the next state
> (the border's about five miles away) it's defined as four feet of clearance.
>
> Let's do some math. On my bike, I'm roughly two feet wide. Three feet
> minimum legal clearance puts the right mirror of a passing vehicle at
> least five feet from the road's edge even if I'm riding just a foot from
> the lane's edge. My small car is about 7 feet wide including mirrors,
> but trucks can legally be 8.5 feet wide.
>
> By state law, I do not have to share a lane that's too narrow to safely
> share. Almost all lanes, by my measurements (yes, I've checked) are less
> than 12 feet wide.
>
> Do the math. (I can help, if you need it.) Then tell me what _you_ would
> do when riding in a ten foot lane when an 8.5 foot truck comes up behind
> you.
>
> I've asked that question of you a dozen times over the years. You, John,
> have never had the courage or honesty to answer.
>
> What I do is ride at lane center, as the law allows. I've done it
> countless times, whether the approaching vehicle has been a private car,
> a dump truck, a tractor trailer rig, a police car or whatever. I've
> never been run over, never been ticketed.
>
> Maybe this will help: https://youtu.be/rVMCz7UJZvM Pay special
> attention at 1:10
>
> Again, 10 foot lane, 8.5 foot truck. What would _you_ do? Ride only on a
> bike path? Pull over every time a car approaches? What would you do?
>

On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 05:56:36 -0500, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 17:33:05 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 04:22:10 -0500, Catrike Rider
>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 20:47:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 12/7/2023 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank's statement doesn't make much sense although it probably does
>>>>> prevent right hook crashes.
>>>>>
>>>>> But "Lane center"? The roads I ride on are 4 to 6 lane with traffic
>>>>> in the 100 - 120 KPH range with, some times, long lines of trucks,
>>>>> some of which are truck with trailer and two 40 ft shipping containers
>>>>> loaded, a total load of, perhaps, 67 tons plus the 17 tons of truck
>>>>> and trailer, a total gross weight of 85 tons, coming down the hill at
>>>>> 100 KPH. Yes Sir! A really great idea! Ride right out in the middle of
>>>>> the lane! Gives the guy a good excuse to check his brakes.
>>>>
>>>>I ride on residential streets, fairly quiet country roads, city and
>>>>suburban arterials and other city streets. On any of those, I share the
>>>>lane with motor vehicles when I decide its safe. In my state "safe" is
>>>>legally defined as a minimum three feet of clearance. In the next state
>>>>(the border's about five miles away) it's defined as four feet of clearance.
>>>>
>>>>Let's do some math. On my bike, I'm roughly two feet wide. Three feet
>>>>minimum legal clearance puts the right mirror of a passing vehicle at
>>>>least five feet from the road's edge even if I'm riding just a foot from
>>>>the lane's edge. My small car is about 7 feet wide including mirrors,
>>>>but trucks can legally be 8.5 feet wide.
>>>>
>>>>By state law, I do not have to share a lane that's too narrow to safely
>>>>share. Almost all lanes, by my measurements (yes, I've checked) are less
>>>>than 12 feet wide.
>>>>
>>>>Do the math. (I can help, if you need it.) Then tell me what _you_ would
>>>>do when riding in a ten foot lane when an 8.5 foot truck comes up behind
>>>>you.
>>>>
>>>>I've asked that question of you a dozen times over the years. You, John,
>>>>have never had the courage or honesty to answer.
>>>>
>>>>What I do is ride at lane center, as the law allows. I've done it
>>>>countless times, whether the approaching vehicle has been a private car,
>>>>a dump truck, a tractor trailer rig, a police car or whatever. I've
>>>>never been run over, never been ticketed.
>>>>
>>>>Maybe this will help: https://youtu.be/rVMCz7UJZvM Pay special
>>>>attention at 1:10
>>>>
>>>>Again, 10 foot lane, 8.5 foot truck. What would _you_ do? Ride only on a
>>>>bike path? Pull over every time a car approaches? What would you do?
>>>
>>> If it was me, I'd be in my car or my truck so it wouldn't be a
>>>problem.
>>
>>Ah yes, Frankie telling us how to do it. From his description he rides
>>on totally different roads then we have here. The last time we came
>>back from Bangkok we passed a line of BIG trucks coming down a long
>>hill and going, probably, 100 kmh, nose to tail and by our speedometer
>>a 1 kilometer long line.
>>
>>But pictures tell it like it really is.
>>
>>Example (1) Highway
>>https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2097959/heavy-traffic-in-korat-as-songkran-trips-begin
>>Note the motorcycle riding safely on both sides of the motor vehicle
>>lanes.
>>
>>Example (2) City
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=w3i0X6VGHO8
>>Note, no bicycles a few small motorcycles which can keep up with
>>traffic.
>>
>>Both the above were taken on the same highway, the first slightly
>>after leaving the city and the second slightly after entering the
>>city.
>>
>>Now, once again, "Riding in the middle of the lane is good!) (or would
>>that be spelled d-e-a-d)
>
>I cannot think of a single reason why I would put myself in that
>position on a road where the traffic was too heavy to allow the
>vehicles to easily go around me.

The highway shown is the main route from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand and
certainly has heavy traffic, but I actually prefer it over the
alternative, narrow country roads. But admittedly I ride early in the
morning before traffic builds up.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 18:49:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 05:56:36 -0500, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 17:33:05 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 04:22:10 -0500, Catrike Rider
>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 20:47:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 12/7/2023 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank's statement doesn't make much sense although it probably does
>>>>>> prevent right hook crashes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But "Lane center"? The roads I ride on are 4 to 6 lane with traffic
>>>>>> in the 100 - 120 KPH range with, some times, long lines of trucks,
>>>>>> some of which are truck with trailer and two 40 ft shipping containers
>>>>>> loaded, a total load of, perhaps, 67 tons plus the 17 tons of truck
>>>>>> and trailer, a total gross weight of 85 tons, coming down the hill at
>>>>>> 100 KPH. Yes Sir! A really great idea! Ride right out in the middle of
>>>>>> the lane! Gives the guy a good excuse to check his brakes.
>>>>>
>>>>>I ride on residential streets, fairly quiet country roads, city and
>>>>>suburban arterials and other city streets. On any of those, I share the
>>>>>lane with motor vehicles when I decide its safe. In my state "safe" is
>>>>>legally defined as a minimum three feet of clearance. In the next state
>>>>>(the border's about five miles away) it's defined as four feet of clearance.
>>>>>
>>>>>Let's do some math. On my bike, I'm roughly two feet wide. Three feet
>>>>>minimum legal clearance puts the right mirror of a passing vehicle at
>>>>>least five feet from the road's edge even if I'm riding just a foot from
>>>>>the lane's edge. My small car is about 7 feet wide including mirrors,
>>>>>but trucks can legally be 8.5 feet wide.
>>>>>
>>>>>By state law, I do not have to share a lane that's too narrow to safely
>>>>>share. Almost all lanes, by my measurements (yes, I've checked) are less
>>>>>than 12 feet wide.
>>>>>
>>>>>Do the math. (I can help, if you need it.) Then tell me what _you_ would
>>>>>do when riding in a ten foot lane when an 8.5 foot truck comes up behind
>>>>>you.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've asked that question of you a dozen times over the years. You, John,
>>>>>have never had the courage or honesty to answer.
>>>>>
>>>>>What I do is ride at lane center, as the law allows. I've done it
>>>>>countless times, whether the approaching vehicle has been a private car,
>>>>>a dump truck, a tractor trailer rig, a police car or whatever. I've
>>>>>never been run over, never been ticketed.
>>>>>
>>>>>Maybe this will help: https://youtu.be/rVMCz7UJZvM Pay special
>>>>>attention at 1:10
>>>>>
>>>>>Again, 10 foot lane, 8.5 foot truck. What would _you_ do? Ride only on a
>>>>>bike path? Pull over every time a car approaches? What would you do?
>>>>
>>>> If it was me, I'd be in my car or my truck so it wouldn't be a
>>>>problem.
>>>
>>>Ah yes, Frankie telling us how to do it. From his description he rides
>>>on totally different roads then we have here. The last time we came
>>>back from Bangkok we passed a line of BIG trucks coming down a long
>>>hill and going, probably, 100 kmh, nose to tail and by our speedometer
>>>a 1 kilometer long line.
>>>
>>>But pictures tell it like it really is.
>>>
>>>Example (1) Highway
>>>https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2097959/heavy-traffic-in-korat-as-songkran-trips-begin
>>>Note the motorcycle riding safely on both sides of the motor vehicle
>>>lanes.
>>>
>>>Example (2) City
>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=w3i0X6VGHO8
>>>Note, no bicycles a few small motorcycles which can keep up with
>>>traffic.
>>>
>>>Both the above were taken on the same highway, the first slightly
>>>after leaving the city and the second slightly after entering the
>>>city.
>>>
>>>Now, once again, "Riding in the middle of the lane is good!) (or would
>>>that be spelled d-e-a-d)
>>
>>I cannot think of a single reason why I would put myself in that
>>position on a road where the traffic was too heavy to allow the
>>vehicles to easily go around me.
>
>The highway shown is the main route from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand and
>certainly has heavy traffic, but I actually prefer it over the
>alternative, narrow country roads. But admittedly I ride early in the
>morning before traffic builds up.
>

Traffic is a definite factor, as is the number of lanes. I have ridden
many miles on very low traffic streets & roads and quite a few miles
on multiple lane streets & roads. Both situations allow for vehicles
to get around me. As I said several times elsewhere in this forum, I
don't even like bicyclists creeping up behind me. On a bike, I'd
rather have cars, trucks, bicycles, etc pass me with minimal clearance
then stay behind me.

I simply do not like having people around me that I don't know unless
I can see them.

On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:57:12 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 4:20:19 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> On 12/6/2023 11:05 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> More normally right/left hook is due to a car overtaking and then
> >>>> forgetting/not looking that there is bike who they are turning into the
> >>>> path, some areas are more prone to this than others.
> >>>
> >>> Bike lanes that hide cyclists off to the curb side probably exacerbate
> >>> this problem. Cyclists who ride near lane center are pretty immune to
> >>> right hooks.
> >>>
> >> The painted ones certainly, though even then the area seems to make more
> >> effect.
> >>
> >> I pass one on the commute but since the side roads are just the estate and
> >> can’t be used for rat running etc, as the railway/river/parks so traffic is
> >> all heading along the road it’s a rubbish and pointless cycle lane but it
> >> is benign, unlike some other places where get a lot of turning traffic, and
> >> such painted cyclelanes are a net negative. Road near my wife’s work is
> >> like that or used to be they have put in a LTN ie large planters which has
> >> stopped the rat running traffic. Which has calmed that sort of stuff a
> >> touch.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >
> > Yet another proof that Frank takes the entire lane in traffic. But of
> > course he doesn't because some insane driver would run him over. So again
> > he is so full of it, it is coming out of this ears. Without bike lanes
> > bikes ride in the same position on the streets but they don't have a
> > white line reminding drivers to beware. I don't know how long I can take
> > Frank claiming he rides when every comment he makes proves he doesn't.
> >
> No some bike lanes are remarkably narrow and really are in the gutter, this
> being london such stuff is disappearing though plenty of WTF where they
> thinking if one has the time to look.
>
> My position like a lot of cyclists depends on the situation, unlike Frank
> I’m pragmatic rather than dogmatic about cycle infrastructure or lack of
> it.
>
> Roger Merriman

So am I. If it is there I use it and if there isn't I try and stay out of the way of faster traffic if possible. Since that woman knew I was there and purposely cut me off, if Frank was taking the lane she would simply have hit him from behind.

On 12/8/2023 6:49 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 05:56:36 -0500, Catrike Rider
> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 17:33:05 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 04:22:10 -0500, Catrike Rider
>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 20:47:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/7/2023 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank's statement doesn't make much sense although it probably does
>>>>>> prevent right hook crashes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But "Lane center"? The roads I ride on are 4 to 6 lane with traffic
>>>>>> in the 100 - 120 KPH range with, some times, long lines of trucks,
>>>>>> some of which are truck with trailer and two 40 ft shipping containers
>>>>>> loaded, a total load of, perhaps, 67 tons plus the 17 tons of truck
>>>>>> and trailer, a total gross weight of 85 tons, coming down the hill at
>>>>>> 100 KPH. Yes Sir! A really great idea! Ride right out in the middle of
>>>>>> the lane! Gives the guy a good excuse to check his brakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> I ride on residential streets, fairly quiet country roads, city and
>>>>> suburban arterials and other city streets. On any of those, I share the
>>>>> lane with motor vehicles when I decide its safe. In my state "safe" is
>>>>> legally defined as a minimum three feet of clearance. In the next state
>>>>> (the border's about five miles away) it's defined as four feet of clearance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's do some math. On my bike, I'm roughly two feet wide. Three feet
>>>>> minimum legal clearance puts the right mirror of a passing vehicle at
>>>>> least five feet from the road's edge even if I'm riding just a foot from
>>>>> the lane's edge. My small car is about 7 feet wide including mirrors,
>>>>> but trucks can legally be 8.5 feet wide.
>>>>>
>>>>> By state law, I do not have to share a lane that's too narrow to safely
>>>>> share. Almost all lanes, by my measurements (yes, I've checked) are less
>>>>> than 12 feet wide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do the math. (I can help, if you need it.) Then tell me what _you_ would
>>>>> do when riding in a ten foot lane when an 8.5 foot truck comes up behind
>>>>> you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've asked that question of you a dozen times over the years. You, John,
>>>>> have never had the courage or honesty to answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I do is ride at lane center, as the law allows. I've done it
>>>>> countless times, whether the approaching vehicle has been a private car,
>>>>> a dump truck, a tractor trailer rig, a police car or whatever. I've
>>>>> never been run over, never been ticketed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe this will help: https://youtu.be/rVMCz7UJZvM Pay special
>>>>> attention at 1:10
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, 10 foot lane, 8.5 foot truck. What would _you_ do? Ride only on a
>>>>> bike path? Pull over every time a car approaches? What would you do?
>>>>
>>>> If it was me, I'd be in my car or my truck so it wouldn't be a
>>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Ah yes, Frankie telling us how to do it. From his description he rides
>>> on totally different roads then we have here. The last time we came
>>> back from Bangkok we passed a line of BIG trucks coming down a long
>>> hill and going, probably, 100 kmh, nose to tail and by our speedometer
>>> a 1 kilometer long line.
>>>
>>> But pictures tell it like it really is.
>>>
>>> Example (1) Highway
>>> https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2097959/heavy-traffic-in-korat-as-songkran-trips-begin
>>> Note the motorcycle riding safely on both sides of the motor vehicle
>>> lanes.
>>>
>>> Example (2) City
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=w3i0X6VGHO8
>>> Note, no bicycles a few small motorcycles which can keep up with
>>> traffic.
>>>
>>> Both the above were taken on the same highway, the first slightly
>>> after leaving the city and the second slightly after entering the
>>> city.
>>>
>>> Now, once again, "Riding in the middle of the lane is good!) (or would
>>> that be spelled d-e-a-d)

Oh good grief. In those links, traffic appears to be barely moving. A
bicyclist would have no trouble keeping up; and in fact, I think most
bicyclists would filter forward through the traffic jam.

> The highway shown is the main route from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand and
> certainly has heavy traffic, but I actually prefer it over the
> alternative, narrow country roads. But admittedly I ride early in the
> morning before traffic builds up.

So you ride (if you still ride at all) only during low traffic times.
And you avoid narrow country roads. Like the tricycle guy, you limit
your riding to the few situations in which you aren't afraid. (Well,
except the tricycle rider is still afraid, as evidenced by the gun he
feels compelled to carry even on a kiddie path.)

You're still evading the question, John. If you were on one of those
narrow country roads - say, one with ten foot lanes - what would you do
when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind? Stop your bike, get off the
road and bow respectfully as it passes?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 12/8/2023 10:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:57:12 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> My position like a lot of cyclists depends on the situation, unlike Frank
>> I’m pragmatic rather than dogmatic about cycle infrastructure or lack of
>> it.

No, I'm not against good bike infrastructure. I do use it occasionally.
But again, 99% of bike lanes give the other 1% a bad name.

> So am I. If it is there I use it ...

No matter how badly it's designed or maintained? Do you have no bike
lanes filled with gravel or wet leaves? Do you use a straight-ahead bike
lane painted to the right of a right turn only lane? Really?

> ... and if there isn't I try and stay out of the way of faster traffic if possible.

Again: If a lane is wide enough to safely share, I share the lane. I can
repeat the simple math if anyone still has trouble with arithmetic.

> Since that woman knew I was there and purposely cut me off, if Frank was taking the lane she would simply have hit him from behind.

You state that with such certainty! Yet my lane-center position has
absolutely prevented some right hooks. In the most blatant incident, a
motorist with his turn signal on moved into the center bi-directional
turn lane right alongside me. I glared at him and waved him back.

Since I've been controlling narrow lanes for decades, I wonder how soon
I can expect to be "simply hit from behind"?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 11:22:08 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 12/8/2023 6:49 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 05:56:36 -0500, Catrike Rider
>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 17:33:05 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 04:22:10 -0500, Catrike Rider
>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 20:47:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/7/2023 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frank's statement doesn't make much sense although it probably does
>>>>>>> prevent right hook crashes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But "Lane center"? The roads I ride on are 4 to 6 lane with traffic
>>>>>>> in the 100 - 120 KPH range with, some times, long lines of trucks,
>>>>>>> some of which are truck with trailer and two 40 ft shipping containers
>>>>>>> loaded, a total load of, perhaps, 67 tons plus the 17 tons of truck
>>>>>>> and trailer, a total gross weight of 85 tons, coming down the hill at
>>>>>>> 100 KPH. Yes Sir! A really great idea! Ride right out in the middle of
>>>>>>> the lane! Gives the guy a good excuse to check his brakes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I ride on residential streets, fairly quiet country roads, city and
>>>>>> suburban arterials and other city streets. On any of those, I share the
>>>>>> lane with motor vehicles when I decide its safe. In my state "safe" is
>>>>>> legally defined as a minimum three feet of clearance. In the next state
>>>>>> (the border's about five miles away) it's defined as four feet of clearance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's do some math. On my bike, I'm roughly two feet wide. Three feet
>>>>>> minimum legal clearance puts the right mirror of a passing vehicle at
>>>>>> least five feet from the road's edge even if I'm riding just a foot from
>>>>>> the lane's edge. My small car is about 7 feet wide including mirrors,
>>>>>> but trucks can legally be 8.5 feet wide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By state law, I do not have to share a lane that's too narrow to safely
>>>>>> share. Almost all lanes, by my measurements (yes, I've checked) are less
>>>>>> than 12 feet wide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do the math. (I can help, if you need it.) Then tell me what _you_ would
>>>>>> do when riding in a ten foot lane when an 8.5 foot truck comes up behind
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've asked that question of you a dozen times over the years. You, John,
>>>>>> have never had the courage or honesty to answer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I do is ride at lane center, as the law allows. I've done it
>>>>>> countless times, whether the approaching vehicle has been a private car,
>>>>>> a dump truck, a tractor trailer rig, a police car or whatever. I've
>>>>>> never been run over, never been ticketed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe this will help: https://youtu.be/rVMCz7UJZvM Pay special
>>>>>> attention at 1:10
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, 10 foot lane, 8.5 foot truck. What would _you_ do? Ride only on a
>>>>>> bike path? Pull over every time a car approaches? What would you do?
>>>>>
>>>>> If it was me, I'd be in my car or my truck so it wouldn't be a
>>>>> problem.
>>>>
>>>> Ah yes, Frankie telling us how to do it. From his description he rides
>>>> on totally different roads then we have here. The last time we came
>>>> back from Bangkok we passed a line of BIG trucks coming down a long
>>>> hill and going, probably, 100 kmh, nose to tail and by our speedometer
>>>> a 1 kilometer long line.
>>>>
>>>> But pictures tell it like it really is.
>>>>
>>>> Example (1) Highway
>>>> https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2097959/heavy-traffic-in-korat-as-songkran-trips-begin
>>>> Note the motorcycle riding safely on both sides of the motor vehicle
>>>> lanes.
>>>>
>>>> Example (2) City
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=w3i0X6VGHO8
>>>> Note, no bicycles a few small motorcycles which can keep up with
>>>> traffic.
>>>>
>>>> Both the above were taken on the same highway, the first slightly
>>>> after leaving the city and the second slightly after entering the
>>>> city.
>>>>
>>>> Now, once again, "Riding in the middle of the lane is good!) (or would
>>>> that be spelled d-e-a-d)
>
>Oh good grief. In those links, traffic appears to be barely moving. A
>bicyclist would have no trouble keeping up; and in fact, I think most
>bicyclists would filter forward through the traffic jam.
>
>> The highway shown is the main route from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand and
>> certainly has heavy traffic, but I actually prefer it over the
>> alternative, narrow country roads. But admittedly I ride early in the
>> morning before traffic builds up.
>
>So you ride (if you still ride at all) only during low traffic times.
>And you avoid narrow country roads. Like the tricycle guy, you limit
>your riding to the few situations in which you aren't afraid. (Well,
>except the tricycle rider is still afraid, as evidenced by the gun he
>feels compelled to carry even on a kiddie path.)
>
>You're still evading the question, John. If you were on one of those
>narrow country roads - say, one with ten foot lanes - what would you do
>when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind? Stop your bike, get off the
>road and bow respectfully as it passes?

Why would anyone ride where they are afraid to ride? Krygowski says
there are places he's afraid to ride such as on a sidepath facing the
traffic. That's something I do regularly.

On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 11:45:24 -0500, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 11:22:08 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 12/8/2023 6:49 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 05:56:36 -0500, Catrike Rider
>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 17:33:05 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 04:22:10 -0500, Catrike Rider
>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 20:47:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/7/2023 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Frank's statement doesn't make much sense although it probably does
>>>>>>>> prevent right hook crashes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But "Lane center"? The roads I ride on are 4 to 6 lane with traffic
>>>>>>>> in the 100 - 120 KPH range with, some times, long lines of trucks,
>>>>>>>> some of which are truck with trailer and two 40 ft shipping containers
>>>>>>>> loaded, a total load of, perhaps, 67 tons plus the 17 tons of truck
>>>>>>>> and trailer, a total gross weight of 85 tons, coming down the hill at
>>>>>>>> 100 KPH. Yes Sir! A really great idea! Ride right out in the middle of
>>>>>>>> the lane! Gives the guy a good excuse to check his brakes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I ride on residential streets, fairly quiet country roads, city and
>>>>>>> suburban arterials and other city streets. On any of those, I share the
>>>>>>> lane with motor vehicles when I decide its safe. In my state "safe" is
>>>>>>> legally defined as a minimum three feet of clearance. In the next state
>>>>>>> (the border's about five miles away) it's defined as four feet of clearance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's do some math. On my bike, I'm roughly two feet wide. Three feet
>>>>>>> minimum legal clearance puts the right mirror of a passing vehicle at
>>>>>>> least five feet from the road's edge even if I'm riding just a foot from
>>>>>>> the lane's edge. My small car is about 7 feet wide including mirrors,
>>>>>>> but trucks can legally be 8.5 feet wide.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By state law, I do not have to share a lane that's too narrow to safely
>>>>>>> share. Almost all lanes, by my measurements (yes, I've checked) are less
>>>>>>> than 12 feet wide.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do the math. (I can help, if you need it.) Then tell me what _you_ would
>>>>>>> do when riding in a ten foot lane when an 8.5 foot truck comes up behind
>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've asked that question of you a dozen times over the years. You, John,
>>>>>>> have never had the courage or honesty to answer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I do is ride at lane center, as the law allows. I've done it
>>>>>>> countless times, whether the approaching vehicle has been a private car,
>>>>>>> a dump truck, a tractor trailer rig, a police car or whatever. I've
>>>>>>> never been run over, never been ticketed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe this will help: https://youtu.be/rVMCz7UJZvM Pay special
>>>>>>> attention at 1:10
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again, 10 foot lane, 8.5 foot truck. What would _you_ do? Ride only on a
>>>>>>> bike path? Pull over every time a car approaches? What would you do?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it was me, I'd be in my car or my truck so it wouldn't be a
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah yes, Frankie telling us how to do it. From his description he rides
>>>>> on totally different roads then we have here. The last time we came
>>>>> back from Bangkok we passed a line of BIG trucks coming down a long
>>>>> hill and going, probably, 100 kmh, nose to tail and by our speedometer
>>>>> a 1 kilometer long line.
>>>>>
>>>>> But pictures tell it like it really is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Example (1) Highway
>>>>> https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2097959/heavy-traffic-in-korat-as-songkran-trips-begin
>>>>> Note the motorcycle riding safely on both sides of the motor vehicle
>>>>> lanes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Example (2) City
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=w3i0X6VGHO8
>>>>> Note, no bicycles a few small motorcycles which can keep up with
>>>>> traffic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Both the above were taken on the same highway, the first slightly
>>>>> after leaving the city and the second slightly after entering the
>>>>> city.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, once again, "Riding in the middle of the lane is good!) (or would
>>>>> that be spelled d-e-a-d)
>>
>>Oh good grief. In those links, traffic appears to be barely moving. A
>>bicyclist would have no trouble keeping up; and in fact, I think most
>>bicyclists would filter forward through the traffic jam.
>>
>>> The highway shown is the main route from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand and
>>> certainly has heavy traffic, but I actually prefer it over the
>>> alternative, narrow country roads. But admittedly I ride early in the
>>> morning before traffic builds up.
>>
>>So you ride (if you still ride at all) only during low traffic times.
>>And you avoid narrow country roads. Like the tricycle guy, you limit
>>your riding to the few situations in which you aren't afraid. (Well,
>>except the tricycle rider is still afraid, as evidenced by the gun he
>>feels compelled to carry even on a kiddie path.)
>>
>>You're still evading the question, John. If you were on one of those
>>narrow country roads - say, one with ten foot lanes - what would you do
>>when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind? Stop your bike, get off the
>>road and bow respectfully as it passes?
>
>Why would anyone ride where they are afraid to ride? Krygowski says
>there are places he's afraid to ride such as on a sidepath facing the
>traffic. That's something I do regularly.

As usual Frankie's argument are, at best, silly.

As I pointed out previously, I ride on roads where traffic is moving,
legally, at speeds of 100 - 120 kph and noticeably in the case of
heavy trucks cannot stop "on a dime".

Yes, If I were being overtaken by a vehicle that was traveling at 6
times my speed that I thought might hit me I'd get off the bike and
run and hide. No question about it.

And I would also say that anyone that didn't is a fool.

I did see the results of Frankie's folly once. Two women on a small
motorbike with two small children "seized the lane", i.e. rode out in
the middle of the lane.A flatbed truck hauling a 10 wheel trailer came
'round the bend. Tried to stop, in fact the trailer tipped on it's
side and was still laying in the road when I came by. One woman and
one baby dead and one woman and one child in the hospital.
Had they ridden on the side of the road they would still be alive.

Only a fool would contest the right of way with a vehicle weighing,
perhaps, 1,000 times their weight and traveling 6 times their speed.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:57:12 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 4:20:19 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/6/2023 11:05 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More normally right/left hook is due to a car overtaking and then
>>>>>> forgetting/not looking that there is bike who they are turning into the
>>>>>> path, some areas are more prone to this than others.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bike lanes that hide cyclists off to the curb side probably exacerbate
>>>>> this problem. Cyclists who ride near lane center are pretty immune to
>>>>> right hooks.
>>>>>
>>>> The painted ones certainly, though even then the area seems to make more
>>>> effect.
>>>>
>>>> I pass one on the commute but since the side roads are just the estate and
>>>> can’t be used for rat running etc, as the railway/river/parks so traffic is
>>>> all heading along the road it’s a rubbish and pointless cycle lane but it
>>>> is benign, unlike some other places where get a lot of turning traffic, and
>>>> such painted cyclelanes are a net negative. Road near my wife’s work is
>>>> like that or used to be they have put in a LTN ie large planters which has
>>>> stopped the rat running traffic. Which has calmed that sort of stuff a
>>>> touch.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> Yet another proof that Frank takes the entire lane in traffic. But of
>>> course he doesn't because some insane driver would run him over. So again
>>> he is so full of it, it is coming out of this ears. Without bike lanes
>>> bikes ride in the same position on the streets but they don't have a
>>> white line reminding drivers to beware. I don't know how long I can take
>>> Frank claiming he rides when every comment he makes proves he doesn't.
>>>
>> No some bike lanes are remarkably narrow and really are in the gutter, this
>> being london such stuff is disappearing though plenty of WTF where they
>> thinking if one has the time to look.
>>
>> My position like a lot of cyclists depends on the situation, unlike Frank
>> I’m pragmatic rather than dogmatic about cycle infrastructure or lack of
>> it.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> So am I. If it is there I use it and if there isn't I try and stay out of
> the way of faster traffic if possible. Since that woman knew I was there
> and purposely cut me off, if Frank was taking the lane she would simply
> have hit him from behind.
>

That’s not my experience, in such places moving a touch out seems to make
cars adjust, as with the white line they will assume your in the lane and
so on, they just don’t think.

Roger Merriman

On 12/8/2023 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> As I pointed out previously, I ride on roads where traffic is moving,
> legally, at speeds of 100 - 120 kph and noticeably in the case of
> heavy trucks cannot stop "on a dime".
>
> Yes, If I were being overtaken by a vehicle that was traveling at 6
> times my speed that I thought might hit me I'd get off the bike and
> run and hide. No question about it.
>
> And I would also say that anyone that didn't is a fool.

Yes, John, you did point that out previously. You wrote that time and
time again. It's hard to say whether you're repeating yourself because
of faulty memory, or if you're now using trolling to bring some tiny
sense of purpose to your life.

Answer the question, please. If you're riding in a ten foot lane and an
8.5 foot truck comes up behind you, what exactly do you do? Jump off the
road and kowtow until it's past you?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 19:56:41 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 12/8/2023 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> As I pointed out previously, I ride on roads where traffic is moving,
>> legally, at speeds of 100 - 120 kph and noticeably in the case of
>> heavy trucks cannot stop "on a dime".
>>
>> Yes, If I were being overtaken by a vehicle that was traveling at 6
>> times my speed that I thought might hit me I'd get off the bike and
>> run and hide. No question about it.
>>
>> And I would also say that anyone that didn't is a fool.
>
>Yes, John, you did point that out previously. You wrote that time and
>time again. It's hard to say whether you're repeating yourself because
>of faulty memory, or if you're now using trolling to bring some tiny
>sense of purpose to your life.

That's from a little insignificant guy who tries to bring purpose to
his life by berating people who ignore his unsolicited advice

>Answer the question, please. If you're riding in a ten foot lane and an
>8.5 foot truck comes up behind you, what exactly do you do? Jump off the
>road and kowtow until it's past you?

Krygowski demands answers.

On Sat, 09 Dec 2023 02:56:36 -0500, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 19:56:41 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 12/8/2023 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> As I pointed out previously, I ride on roads where traffic is moving,
>>> legally, at speeds of 100 - 120 kph and noticeably in the case of
>>> heavy trucks cannot stop "on a dime".
>>>
>>> Yes, If I were being overtaken by a vehicle that was traveling at 6
>>> times my speed that I thought might hit me I'd get off the bike and
>>> run and hide. No question about it.
>>>
>>> And I would also say that anyone that didn't is a fool.
>>
>>Yes, John, you did point that out previously. You wrote that time and
>>time again. It's hard to say whether you're repeating yourself because
>>of faulty memory, or if you're now using trolling to bring some tiny
>>sense of purpose to your life.
>
>That's from a little insignificant guy who tries to bring purpose to
>his life by berating people who ignore his unsolicited advice
>
>>Answer the question, please. If you're riding in a ten foot lane and an
>>8.5 foot truck comes up behind you, what exactly do you do? Jump off the
>>road and kowtow until it's past you?
>
>Krygowski demands answers.

Yet another of Frankie's Follies :-(

The words Kau Tau are Cantonese Chinese words for "Knock" and "Head"
and the term apparently originated in the Chinese Imperial period.
When one was presented to the Emperor one knelt and bowing the head to
the ground. I believe three kneeling's and three banging the head in
the ground each time one knelt. This for the emperor, of course, and
fewer times for lower ranking officials.

Frankie's use of the term it is ludicrous and simply provides more
proof that he doesn't know what he is talking about. Everyone knows
that one doesn't kneel for a truck, a simple nod of the head is all
that is required.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 4:29:34 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:57:12 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 4:20:19 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>> On 12/6/2023 11:05 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> More normally right/left hook is due to a car overtaking and then
> >>>>>> forgetting/not looking that there is bike who they are turning into the
> >>>>>> path, some areas are more prone to this than others.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bike lanes that hide cyclists off to the curb side probably exacerbate
> >>>>> this problem. Cyclists who ride near lane center are pretty immune to
> >>>>> right hooks.
> >>>>>
> >>>> The painted ones certainly, though even then the area seems to make more
> >>>> effect.
> >>>>
> >>>> I pass one on the commute but since the side roads are just the estate and
> >>>> can’t be used for rat running etc, as the railway/river/parks so traffic is
> >>>> all heading along the road it’s a rubbish and pointless cycle lane but it
> >>>> is benign, unlike some other places where get a lot of turning traffic, and
> >>>> such painted cyclelanes are a net negative. Road near my wife’s work is
> >>>> like that or used to be they have put in a LTN ie large planters which has
> >>>> stopped the rat running traffic. Which has calmed that sort of stuff a
> >>>> touch.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>
> >>> Yet another proof that Frank takes the entire lane in traffic. But of
> >>> course he doesn't because some insane driver would run him over. So again
> >>> he is so full of it, it is coming out of this ears. Without bike lanes
> >>> bikes ride in the same position on the streets but they don't have a
> >>> white line reminding drivers to beware. I don't know how long I can take
> >>> Frank claiming he rides when every comment he makes proves he doesn't..
> >>>
> >> No some bike lanes are remarkably narrow and really are in the gutter, this
> >> being london such stuff is disappearing though plenty of WTF where they
> >> thinking if one has the time to look.
> >>
> >> My position like a lot of cyclists depends on the situation, unlike Frank
> >> I’m pragmatic rather than dogmatic about cycle infrastructure or lack of
> >> it.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >
> > So am I. If it is there I use it and if there isn't I try and stay out of
> > the way of faster traffic if possible. Since that woman knew I was there
> > and purposely cut me off, if Frank was taking the lane she would simply
> > have hit him from behind.
> >
> That’s not my experience, in such places moving a touch out seems to make
> cars adjust, as with the white line they will assume your in the lane and
> so on, they just don’t think.
>
> Roger Merriman
Unfortunately you cannot adjust by moving out if there is a car already there.

On 12/9/2023 3:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 4:29:34 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:57:12 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 4:20:19 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/6/2023 11:05 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More normally right/left hook is due to a car overtaking and then
>>>>>>>> forgetting/not looking that there is bike who they are turning into the
>>>>>>>> path, some areas are more prone to this than others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bike lanes that hide cyclists off to the curb side probably exacerbate
>>>>>>> this problem. Cyclists who ride near lane center are pretty immune to
>>>>>>> right hooks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The painted ones certainly, though even then the area seems to make more
>>>>>> effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I pass one on the commute but since the side roads are just the estate and
>>>>>> can’t be used for rat running etc, as the railway/river/parks so traffic is
>>>>>> all heading along the road it’s a rubbish and pointless cycle lane but it
>>>>>> is benign, unlike some other places where get a lot of turning traffic, and
>>>>>> such painted cyclelanes are a net negative. Road near my wife’s work is
>>>>>> like that or used to be they have put in a LTN ie large planters which has
>>>>>> stopped the rat running traffic. Which has calmed that sort of stuff a
>>>>>> touch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> Yet another proof that Frank takes the entire lane in traffic. But of
>>>>> course he doesn't because some insane driver would run him over. So again
>>>>> he is so full of it, it is coming out of this ears. Without bike lanes
>>>>> bikes ride in the same position on the streets but they don't have a
>>>>> white line reminding drivers to beware. I don't know how long I can take
>>>>> Frank claiming he rides when every comment he makes proves he doesn't.
>>>>>
>>>> No some bike lanes are remarkably narrow and really are in the gutter, this
>>>> being london such stuff is disappearing though plenty of WTF where they
>>>> thinking if one has the time to look.
>>>>
>>>> My position like a lot of cyclists depends on the situation, unlike Frank
>>>> I’m pragmatic rather than dogmatic about cycle infrastructure or lack of
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> So am I. If it is there I use it and if there isn't I try and stay out of
>>> the way of faster traffic if possible. Since that woman knew I was there
>>> and purposely cut me off, if Frank was taking the lane she would simply
>>> have hit him from behind.
>>>
>> That’s not my experience, in such places moving a touch out seems to make
>> cars adjust, as with the white line they will assume your in the lane and
>> so on, they just don’t think.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
> Unfortunately you cannot adjust by moving out if there is a car already there.

You don't move leftward if a car is already there, unless you negotiate
with a following motorist and get his cooperation. I've done that when,
for example, I needed to change from the right lane to the next lane,
then to a left turn only lane. When a slight gap appeared to my left, I
signaled and looked back to visually ask the motorist to let me in. Most
motorists cooperate.

But again: Simple math shows most lanes are too narrow to safely share.
That means it's legal to ride toward lane center, which is safer than
squeezing far right and tempting unskilled motorists to judge precisely
how wide their car is as they try to get by you. So riding near lane
center should be the default (in Britain, "the primary position"). That
way you are not often trying to merge into the center of the lane.
You're already there.

This is all explained in educational videos and printed materials for
legitimate classes on traffic cycling. It's part of the curricula
because it works.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri Dec 8 05:27:28 2023 "funkma...@hotmail.com" wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 4:42:31AM UTC-5, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> >
> > I've heard of people running straight on into dogs that have come out
> > to greet them.
>
> sure, because every dog that ever came out in the road after a cyclist is a friendly little pooch who only wants to be petted. Gawd yer an ignorant dumbass.
>
> "Cyclist mauled and killed in 'aggressive' dog attack"
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbhQ7jW76uY
>
> https://news.sky.com/story/woman-left-with-potentially-life-changing-injury-after-dog-attack-in-lancaster-12626495
>
> https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/maryland/police-search-for-woman-after-dog-attacks-bicyclist/65-209c3269-cd0c-4e90-ad56-bff2a7e185e9
>
> https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/state/2022/11/06/cyclist-pit-bull-dog-attack-leg-amputated-vinton-county-ohio/69613247007/
>
> That's from the first page of a "dog mauls cyclist" google search.
>
> Again, you aren't qualified to participate in discussions on these issues, due to your willful ignorance (which you're immensely proud of).

And you wonder why nobody likes you. It isn't the fact that you're queer because even other queers don't like you.

On 4/18/2024 2:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Fri Dec 8 05:27:28 2023 "funkma...@hotmail.com" wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 4:42:31AM UTC-5, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>
>>> I've heard of people running straight on into dogs that have come out
>>> to greet them.
>>
>> sure, because every dog that ever came out in the road after a cyclist is a friendly little pooch who only wants to be petted. Gawd yer an ignorant dumbass.
>>
>> "Cyclist mauled and killed in 'aggressive' dog attack"
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbhQ7jW76uY
>>
>> https://news.sky.com/story/woman-left-with-potentially-life-changing-injury-after-dog-attack-in-lancaster-12626495
>>
>> https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/maryland/police-search-for-woman-after-dog-attacks-bicyclist/65-209c3269-cd0c-4e90-ad56-bff2a7e185e9
>>
>> https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/state/2022/11/06/cyclist-pit-bull-dog-attack-leg-amputated-vinton-county-ohio/69613247007/
>>
>> That's from the first page of a "dog mauls cyclist" google search.
>>
>> Again, you aren't qualified to participate in discussions on these issues, due to your willful ignorance (which you're immensely proud of).
>
>
>
>
> And you wonder why nobody likes you. It isn't the fact that you're queer because even other queers don't like you.

https://www.alibris.com/How-to-Win-Friends-Influence-People-Miniature-Edition-The-Only-Book-You-Need-to-Lead-You-to-Success-Dale-Carnegie/book/37368064?matches=12
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/18/2024 6:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/18/2024 2:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Fri Dec 8 05:27:28 2023 "funkma...@hotmail.com"  wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 4:42:31AM UTC-5, floriduh dumbass
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've heard of people running straight on into dogs that have come out
>>>> to greet them.
>>>
>>>   sure, because every dog that ever came out in the road after a
>>> cyclist is a friendly little pooch who only wants to be petted. Gawd
>>> yer an ignorant dumbass.
>>>
>>> "Cyclist mauled and killed in 'aggressive' dog attack"
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbhQ7jW76uY
>>>
>>> https://news.sky.com/story/woman-left-with-potentially-life-changing-injury-after-dog-attack-in-lancaster-12626495
>>>
>>> https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/maryland/police-search-for-woman-after-dog-attacks-bicyclist/65-209c3269-cd0c-4e90-ad56-bff2a7e185e9
>>>
>>> https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/state/2022/11/06/cyclist-pit-bull-dog-attack-leg-amputated-vinton-county-ohio/69613247007/
>>>
>>> That's from the first page of a "dog mauls cyclist" google search.
>>>
>>> Again, you aren't qualified to participate in discussions on these
>>> issues, due to your willful ignorance (which you're immensely proud of).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And you wonder why nobody likes you. It isn't the fact that you're
>> queer because even other queers don't like you.
>
>
> https://www.alibris.com/How-to-Win-Friends-Influence-People-Miniature-Edition-The-Only-Book-You-Need-to-Lead-You-to-Success-Dale-Carnegie/book/37368064?matches=12

That was very charitable, Andrew.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 17:15:55 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>https://www.alibris.com/How-to-Win-Friends-Influence-People-Miniature-Edition-The-Only-Book-You-Need-to-Lead-You-to-Success-Dale-Carnegie/book/37368064?matches=12
>--
>Andrew Muzi
>am@yellowjersey.org
>Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Altering one's lifestyle simply to have more friends seems like a
terrible way to live.

On 4/19/2024 2:29 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 17:15:55 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.alibris.com/How-to-Win-Friends-Influence-People-Miniature-Edition-The-Only-Book-You-Need-to-Lead-You-to-Success-Dale-Carnegie/book/37368064?matches=12
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> am@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Altering one's lifestyle simply to have more friends seems like a
> terrible way to live.

A reasonable point of view, but gratuitously insulting
people is no better.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat Dec 9 18:35:35 2023 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 12/9/2023 3:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 4:29:34?PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:57:12?AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 4:20:19?AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 12/6/2023 11:05 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> More normally right/left hook is due to a car overtaking and then
> >>>>>>>> forgetting/not looking that there is bike who they are turning into the
> >>>>>>>> path, some areas are more prone to this than others.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Bike lanes that hide cyclists off to the curb side probably exacerbate
> >>>>>>> this problem. Cyclists who ride near lane center are pretty immune to
> >>>>>>> right hooks.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> The painted ones certainly, though even then the area seems to make more
> >>>>>> effect.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I pass one on the commute but since the side roads are just the estate and
> >>>>>> can?t be used for rat running etc, as the railway/river/parks so traffic is
> >>>>>> all heading along the road it?s a rubbish and pointless cycle lane but it
> >>>>>> is benign, unlike some other places where get a lot of turning traffic, and
> >>>>>> such painted cyclelanes are a net negative. Road near my wife?s work is
> >>>>>> like that or used to be they have put in a LTN ie large planters which has
> >>>>>> stopped the rat running traffic. Which has calmed that sort of stuff a
> >>>>>> touch.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yet another proof that Frank takes the entire lane in traffic. But of
> >>>>> course he doesn't because some insane driver would run him over. So again
> >>>>> he is so full of it, it is coming out of this ears. Without bike lanes
> >>>>> bikes ride in the same position on the streets but they don't have a
> >>>>> white line reminding drivers to beware. I don't know how long I can take
> >>>>> Frank claiming he rides when every comment he makes proves he doesn't.
> >>>>>
> >>>> No some bike lanes are remarkably narrow and really are in the gutter, this
> >>>> being london such stuff is disappearing though plenty of WTF where they
> >>>> thinking if one has the time to look.
> >>>>
> >>>> My position like a lot of cyclists depends on the situation, unlike Frank
> >>>> I?m pragmatic rather than dogmatic about cycle infrastructure or lack of
> >>>> it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>
> >>> So am I. If it is there I use it and if there isn't I try and stay out of
> >>> the way of faster traffic if possible. Since that woman knew I was there
> >>> and purposely cut me off, if Frank was taking the lane she would simply
> >>> have hit him from behind.
> >>>
> >> That?s not my experience, in such places moving a touch out seems to make
> >> cars adjust, as with the white line they will assume your in the lane and
> >> so on, they just don?t think.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> > Unfortunately you cannot adjust by moving out if there is a car already there.
>
> You don't move leftward if a car is already there, unless you negotiate
> with a following motorist and get his cooperation. I've done that when,
> for example, I needed to change from the right lane to the next lane,
> then to a left turn only lane. When a slight gap appeared to my left, I
> signaled and looked back to visually ask the motorist to let me in. Most
> motorists cooperate.
>
> But again: Simple math shows most lanes are too narrow to safely share.
> That means it's legal to ride toward lane center, which is safer than
> squeezing far right and tempting unskilled motorists to judge precisely
> how wide their car is as they try to get by you. So riding near lane
> center should be the default (in Britain, "the primary position"). That
> way you are not often trying to merge into the center of the lane.
> You're already there.
>
> This is all explained in educational videos and printed materials for
> legitimate classes on traffic cycling. It's part of the curricula
> because it works.
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Frank, so does everyone else. But rhere ARE people in the world that are convinced they own the road. The problem isn't drivers as a whole but a small subset that you don't seem to believe exists. Thix includes the California Highway Patrol which refused to take any action when some illegal alien threatrened to kill me and chaced me off of the road and into a thicket of trees. The claim was that if they didn't themselves witness it, it never happened. Suddenly that changed when they heard from Sacramento. Had they simply gone and lookedx they would have found the ass trying to untangle his car from that thicket. What would he have said to the officer if asked how he got there in the first place.

Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 17:15:55 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.alibris.com/How-to-Win-Friends-Influence-People-Miniature-Edition-The-Only-Book-You-Need-to-Lead-You-to-Success-Dale-Carnegie/book/37368064?matches=12
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> am@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Altering one's lifestyle simply to have more friends seems like a
> terrible way to live.
>

It’s more than that, persuading people to help you, or do a favour etc,
takes charm.

Particularly if it’s something they don’t really want to do?

Roger Merriman

On Fri Apr 19 07:38:53 2024 AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/19/2024 2:29 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> > On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 17:15:55 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> https://www.alibris.com/How-to-Win-Friends-Influence-People-Miniature-Edition-The-Only-Book-You-Need-to-Lead-You-to-Success-Dale-Carnegie/book/37368064?matches=12
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> am@yellowjersey.org
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > Altering one's lifestyle simply to have more friends seems like a
> > terrible way to live.
>
> A reasonable point of view, but gratuitously insulting
> people is no better.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> am@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>

I chased after here and whatever she planned to do in that shopping center seemed secondary to getting away from me. Would you expect me to be polite to people that have hit me when I was right there in plain sight>