On 6/1/2022 7:05 AM, bitrex wrote:
> On 6/1/2022 10:03 AM, bitrex wrote:
>
>> Yes, I live far enough from Boston proper that if I wanted to get to South
>> Station downtown as of 10 AM this morning without using a car or taxi at all
>> my adventure starts with a 20 minute walk to a bus stop, then a 50 minute bus
>> ride, then a 35 minute heavy rail train ride.
>>
>> Google sometimes routes me a bit differently with a shorter bus ride and
>> longer train ride depending on the time of day, but it always ends up
>> suggesting a trip that takes over 2 hours. By car even in traffic the same
>> trip would take me 45 minutes tops
>
> At the absolute peak of weekday rush hour it might take an hour.

Driving (personal vehicle) tends to be pretty quick, here, as the
speed limits "in town" are 45MPH (freaks visitors from NYC out!).
But, the distances (*in* town) tend to be longer.

And, there's no coherent thought in how the town is laid out
so it's not like businesses are in one particular area while
residences are in others.

[There's at least one "community" that has tried to be self-contained.
They're located far enough from everything else that they really have
an incentive to be so! Just *don't* need medical care...]

On 6/1/2022 7:15 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On 06/01/2022 01:26 AM, bitrex wrote:

>> If you have an 80 year old rifle and an '86 pickup you're not the type
>> to trade them in anyway, you are likely an old-junk hoarder like Sanford
>> & Son, saving rusty screws in a jar too.
>>
>> <https://youtu.be/FUjWYm8bh8U>

Or, someone who figures "if it ain't broke...".

How long do you "keep" a love interest?

> I miss Red Green. That, Austin City Limits, and a few other programs on PBS are
> about my only TV consumption.

Meh. A little RG goes a LONG way (how many ways can you tell the same joke?)

We abandoned broadcast TV (and cable) many years ago. Occasionally, we will
try to catch The Evening Commercials as they sometimes have a few minutes
of news and weather interspersed.

But, once you start *reading* the news stories (from the same broadcasters)
on-line... and realize that each "story" is a mere three sentences... <shrug>

The TV is now a giant DVD player -- our local library has ~8000 titles so
we've usually got 20+ "on hold" along with a dozen or two at home.
(and, if you treat it as "entertainment", then rewatching SOME films is
perfectly acceptable -- esp if you "watch" with your ears while your
eyes are busy with other things!)

On 30/05/2022 12:36, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 2:12:54 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown
>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Mining the lithium for the batteries is a nasty business despoiling
>>> various pristine habitats with little concern for the inhabitants.
>
> It can be be. It doesn't have to be.

It is pretty bad at the moment. Like a gold rush.
>
>>> Out of sight out of mind for those that want to pretend that there is no downside to electric vehicles and growth of Lithium batteries. They also end up with radioactive tailings in Peru (or uranium as a by-product).
>
> They can. It is a matter of choice. The fact that uranium deposits were found nearby is a coincidence, and the choice about what to do with them is entirely independent.
>
>>> https://www.mining-technology.com/analysis/cracking-lithium-triangle-will-new-legislation-open-gates-peru/
>
>>> You have a strange imagination. Chances are if this technology had been
>>> available back then only the very richest people would ever have had a
>>> car. Until mass production petrol cars were rich men's expensive toys.
>
> Battery cars were popular early on. There weren't many of them so they were just as expensive as petrol cars.

Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/

Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

>>>> Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
>>>> our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
>>>> ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount!
>>>> Convenience über alles!
>>>
>>> The next generation can pay for it. Politicians can't ever see any
>>> further than the next election and often not even that far :(
>>
>> Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
>> care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
>> better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.
>
> Oil and gas were major contributors to human well-being. Now that we've burnt enough of them to generate appreciable global warming, the downsides are starting to become more obvious (not that John Larkin wants to know).
>
> <snip - reversion to the Middle Ages isn't the only choice available>

In practice it might well be at least for all but the richest people.

Energy is going to be very expensive now and for the foreseeable future.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

> Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.
>
> https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/
>
>
> Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
> comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
> electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)
>
> Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
residents early in the morning?

That's different than how things are in the US where all service
vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
income is 100 grand or over

On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

>>>> "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
>>>> walk."
>>>>
>>>> Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
>>>> was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
>>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.
>>>
>>> No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
>>> sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
>>> stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
>>> personal preferences.
>>
>> The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.
>
> When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
> things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
> really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
> when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.
>
> It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
> area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night
> and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.

The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or
near their charming neighborhood.

Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what
you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive
real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

<https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>

You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city
limits for three times the price.

On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
> On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.
>>
>> https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/
>>
>>
>> Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
>> comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
>> electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)
>>
>> Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.
>
> Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
> residents early in the morning?
>
> That's different than how things are in the US where all service
> vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
> income is 100 grand or over

I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the
horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
sound if I was awake already.

Clifford Heath.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
wrote:

>On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
>> On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
>>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
>>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
>>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.
>>>
>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/
>>>
>>>
>>> Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
>>> comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
>>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
>>> electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)
>>>
>>> Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.
>>
>> Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
>> residents early in the morning?
>>
>> That's different than how things are in the US where all service
>> vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
>> income is 100 grand or over
>
>I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
>the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the
>horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
>sound if I was awake already.
>
>Clifford Heath.

My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
starting about 4 AM.

He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

On 06/01/2022 02:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
> OTOH, *storing* a car was always tedious -- esp if you didn't have a
> driveway
> or parking area set aside for your use (on both ends of the trip).

When I worked direct for a company in Cambridge and got restless we had
the 'what would it take to keep you?' conversation. My answer was a card
for the indoor parking garage. They had a uncontrolled lot down the
street but I was driving a Firebird. They had a bad way of going missing
in Boston.

A friend went through two Healey 3000's that were stolen and got sick of
the hassle so he bought a Volvo sedan. That got stolen too but at least
that one was recovered.

On 6/1/2022 1:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 30/05/2022 12:36, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>> On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 2:12:54 AM UTC+10,
>> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown
>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> Mining the lithium for the batteries is a nasty business despoiling
>>>> various pristine habitats with little concern for the inhabitants.
>>
>> It can be be. It doesn't have to be.
>
> It is pretty bad at the moment. Like a gold rush.
>>
>>>> Out of sight out of mind for those that want to pretend that there is no
>>>> downside to electric vehicles and growth of Lithium batteries. They also
>>>> end up with radioactive tailings in Peru (or uranium as a by-product).
>>
>> They can. It is a matter of choice. The fact that uranium deposits were found
>> nearby is a coincidence, and the choice about what to do with them is
>> entirely independent.
>>>> https://www.mining-technology.com/analysis/cracking-lithium-triangle-will-new-legislation-open-gates-peru/
>>>>
>>
>>>> You have a strange imagination. Chances are if this technology had been
>>>> available back then only the very richest people would ever have had a
>>>> car. Until mass production petrol cars were rich men's expensive toys.
>>
>> Battery cars were popular early on. There weren't many of them so they were
>> just as expensive as petrol cars.
>
> Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were outpaced at
> every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the advent of modern Nd
> magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were always in very real trouble
> for power to weight ratio.
>
> https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/
>
>
> Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until comparatively
> recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by lead acid cells when I
> was young but that was about it as far as electric vehicles went. (advantage of
> nearly silent operation)
>
> Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.
>
>>>>> Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
>>>>> our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
>>>>> ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount!
>>>>> Convenience über alles!
>>>>
>>>> The next generation can pay for it. Politicians can't ever see any
>>>> further than the next election and often not even that far :(
>>>
>>> Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
>>> care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
>>> better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.
>>
>> Oil and gas were major contributors to human well-being. Now that we've burnt
>> enough of them to generate appreciable global warming, the downsides are
>> starting to become more obvious (not that John Larkin wants to know).
>>
>> <snip - reversion to the Middle Ages isn't the only choice available>
>
> In practice it might well be at least for all but the richest people.
>
> Energy is going to be very expensive now and for the foreseeable future.

"Very?" <shrug> Energy is relatively cheap (US).

And, there are things that manufacturers can do to increase
energy *efficiency* (whether a response to a market demand
or legislative action).

I suspect the bigger problem is going to be water -- and, to
a lesser (in terms of how widespread) extent, foodstuffs.
There's not much that can be done to "make more" or "need less"
(though lots of waste in the US that could be addressed).

The populations that haven;'t had to worry about these issues
will likely feel very "inconvenienced" by them.

On 2/6/22 09:53, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
>>> On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>> Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
>>>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
>>>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
>>>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
>>>> comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
>>>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
>>>> electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)
>>>>
>>>> Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.
>>>
>>> Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
>>> residents early in the morning?
>>>
>>> That's different than how things are in the US where all service
>>> vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
>>> income is 100 grand or over
>>
>> I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
>> the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the
>> horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
>> sound if I was awake already.
>>
>> Clifford Heath.
>
> My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
> starting about 4 AM.
>
> He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
> wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.

Well done by your Dad. It clearly did you good too, it would have been a
hard life. I respect folk that can do that kind of service work. A
school-friend ran behind a garbage truck carrying and emptying bins for
six months before he started his PhD in Ag Sci. As well as him becoming
incredibly strong, it has had lifelong health benefits.

I assume horses weren't used in the crazy-steep parts of San Francisco.
I wonder how milk was delivered there?

CH

On 6/1/2022 6:48 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 06/01/2022 02:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> OTOH, *storing* a car was always tedious -- esp if you didn't have a
>> driveway
>> or parking area set aside for your use (on both ends of the trip).
>
> When I worked direct for a company in Cambridge and got restless we had the
> 'what would it take to keep you?' conversation. My answer was a card for the
> indoor parking garage. They had a uncontrolled lot down the street but I was
> driving a Firebird. They had a bad way of going missing in Boston.

A neighbor has hid stolen -- out of his driveway -- twice. Recovered both
times but the second recovery it was trashed.

> A friend went through two Healey 3000's that were stolen and got sick of the
> hassle so he bought a Volvo sedan. That got stolen too but at least that one
> was recovered.

Increasingly, I am annoyed with "travel". A waste of time with too many
potential unexpected surprises (theft, vandalism, damage, breakdown, etc.).

And, car *ownership* brings along its own set of issues (maintenance, theft,
etc.). Plus the whole issue of shopping for replacements...

I suspect there may be a market for a hybrid rental approach; let someone
else own the vehicles and you choose how much you want to "cling" to one...
"just for this trip across town" vs. "I want it waiting for me in the morning"
Being able to walk away from any "problems" has a certain appeal!

[But, I'm getting old and impatient with "needless wastes of time"]

There is a scale problem with vehicles. How can you justify telling some
portion of the (world) population that they can't have one? For that
reason, I can't see electric vehicles being anything more than a transitional
phase. Imagine replacing EVERY gas guzzler with an EV and having folks
*keep* those vehicles (operational!) for 10, 20, 30 years.

There's very little cost to *keeping* extra vehicles when all you have
to do is put Stabil in the tank (or drain it). How do you keep a
spare EV -- and ensure that it remains driveable (without becoming a
slave to that possession)?

A gas guzzler can sit for a decade and resume service with the introduction
of fuel. The *mechanism* doesn't degrade while being stored (within reason).
Do you pull the battery from your EV while it's not being driven? ("drain
the tank") How do you maintain it in that state -- trade it in for cash?
A gas tank doesn't need any special care (if drained) to be usable years later!

[I don't know any winter visitors who drive EVs to ask them how they
"store" their vehicle for 6 months of the year. And, the few EV drivers
that I know don't seem to be happy with any of their purchases (replacing
them every year or two with different makes/models) to shed any light]

"Beam me up (over), Scotty!" All I need is to be able to carry a bit
of "stuff" for the trip! (or, send it along AFTER me...!)

On 06/01/2022 10:49 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 2/6/22 09:53, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
>>>> On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
>>>>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
>>>>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
>>>>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
>>>>> comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
>>>>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
>>>>> electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)
>>>>>
>>>>> Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.
>>>>
>>>> Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
>>>> residents early in the morning?
>>>>
>>>> That's different than how things are in the US where all service
>>>> vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
>>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
>>>> income is 100 grand or over
>>>
>>> I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
>>> the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the
>>> horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
>>> sound if I was awake already.
>>>
>>> Clifford Heath.
>>
>> My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
>> starting about 4 AM.
>>
>> He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
>> wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.
>
> Well done by your Dad. It clearly did you good too, it would have been a
> hard life. I respect folk that can do that kind of service work. A
> school-friend ran behind a garbage truck carrying and emptying bins for
> six months before he started his PhD in Ag Sci. As well as him becoming
> incredibly strong, it has had lifelong health benefits.
>
> I assume horses weren't used in the crazy-steep parts of San Francisco.
> I wonder how milk was delivered there?
>
> CH

The story is Hallidie started the cable car system after seeing a
horrendous wreck when a horse slipped on wet cobblestones and the whole
team and wagon slid down to the bottom of the hill.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 5:08:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
>
> > Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
> > outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
> > advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
> > always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.
> >
> > https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/
> >
> >
> > Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
> > comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
> > lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
> > electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)
> >
> > Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.
> Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
> residents early in the morning?
>
> That's different than how things are in the US where all service
> vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
> income is 100 grand or over

I used to live in a house that became adjacent to commercial. The trash truck would come and BAM, BAM, BAM at the gas stations, ROAR, ROAR, ROAR as it moved to the next place, then BAM, BAM, BAM, lather, rinse, repeat. I seem to be able to sleep through that mostly, but if I was just getting to sleep, a half hour later I might be able to get back to sleep.

I thought about getting a trash truck and making that sort of noise in front of the mayor's house.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 5:24:17 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
>
> >>>> "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
> >>>> walk."
> >>>>
> >>>> Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
> >>>> was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
> >>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.
> >>>
> >>> No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
> >>> sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
> >>> stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
> >>> personal preferences.
> >>
> >> The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
> >> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.
> >
> > When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
> > things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
> > really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
> > when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.
> >
> > It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
> > area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night
> > and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.
> The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or
> near their charming neighborhood.
>
> Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what
> you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive
> real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.
>
> <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>
>
>
> You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city
> limits for three times the price.

Yeah, we got both kinds of water, hot *and* cold!

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 14:49:59 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
wrote:

>On 2/6/22 09:53, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
>>>> On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
>>>>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
>>>>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
>>>>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
>>>>> comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
>>>>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
>>>>> electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)
>>>>>
>>>>> Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.
>>>>
>>>> Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
>>>> residents early in the morning?
>>>>
>>>> That's different than how things are in the US where all service
>>>> vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
>>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
>>>> income is 100 grand or over
>>>
>>> I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
>>> the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the
>>> horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
>>> sound if I was awake already.
>>>
>>> Clifford Heath.
>>
>> My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
>> starting about 4 AM.
>>
>> He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
>> wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.
>
>Well done by your Dad. It clearly did you good too, it would have been a
>hard life. I respect folk that can do that kind of service work. A
>school-friend ran behind a garbage truck carrying and emptying bins for
>six months before he started his PhD in Ag Sci. As well as him becoming
>incredibly strong, it has had lifelong health benefits.
>
>I assume horses weren't used in the crazy-steep parts of San Francisco.
>I wonder how milk was delivered there?
>
>CH

That was in New Orleans, almost optically flat.

I'm NOT so old as to remember milk being delivered by horses.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 23:45:20 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

>On 06/01/2022 10:49 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
>> On 2/6/22 09:53, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
>>>>> On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
>>>>>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
>>>>>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
>>>>>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
>>>>>> comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
>>>>>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
>>>>>> electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
>>>>> residents early in the morning?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's different than how things are in the US where all service
>>>>> vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
>>>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
>>>>> income is 100 grand or over
>>>>
>>>> I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
>>>> the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the
>>>> horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
>>>> sound if I was awake already.
>>>>
>>>> Clifford Heath.
>>>
>>> My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
>>> starting about 4 AM.
>>>
>>> He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
>>> wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.
>>
>> Well done by your Dad. It clearly did you good too, it would have been a
>> hard life. I respect folk that can do that kind of service work. A
>> school-friend ran behind a garbage truck carrying and emptying bins for
>> six months before he started his PhD in Ag Sci. As well as him becoming
>> incredibly strong, it has had lifelong health benefits.
>>
>> I assume horses weren't used in the crazy-steep parts of San Francisco.
>> I wonder how milk was delivered there?
>>
>> CH
>
>The story is Hallidie started the cable car system after seeing a
>horrendous wreck when a horse slipped on wet cobblestones and the whole
>team and wagon slid down to the bottom of the hill.

If you are in SF make sure to ride the Hyde Street line. Don't sit,
hang outside.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
>
>>>>> "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
>>>>> walk."
>>>>>
>>>>> Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
>>>>> was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
>>>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.
>>>>
>>>> No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
>>>> sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
>>>> stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
>>>> personal preferences.
>>>
>>> The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.
>>
>> When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
>> things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
>> really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
>> when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.
>>
>> It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
>> area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night
>> and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.
>
>
>The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or
>near their charming neighborhood.
>
>Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what
>you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive
>real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.
>
><https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>
>
>
>You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city
>limits for three times the price.

People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
obviously think it's worth it.

Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within
walking distance of the google bus stops.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

On 06/01/2022 11:34 PM, Don Y wrote:
> here's very little cost to *keeping* extra vehicles when all you have
> to do is put Stabil in the tank (or drain it). How do you keep a
> spare EV -- and ensure that it remains driveable (without becoming a
> slave to that possession)?
>
> A gas guzzler can sit for a decade and resume service with the introduction
> of fuel. The *mechanism* doesn't degrade while being stored (within
> reason).
> Do you pull the battery from your EV while it's not being driven? ("drain
> the tank") How do you maintain it in that state -- trade it in for cash?
> A gas tank doesn't need any special care (if drained) to be usable years
> later!

I do pull the battery out of the pickup and put it on a tender in the
winter. I try to take it for a ride once a year but with gas headed
toward $5 it might be a really short ride this year. But you're correct.
In this state after 12 years you go to a permanent plate so the only
cost is insurance.

On 06/02/2022 12:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 14:49:59 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/6/22 09:53, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
>>>>> On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
>>>>>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
>>>>>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
>>>>>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
>>>>>> comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
>>>>>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
>>>>>> electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
>>>>> residents early in the morning?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's different than how things are in the US where all service
>>>>> vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
>>>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
>>>>> income is 100 grand or over
>>>>
>>>> I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
>>>> the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the
>>>> horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
>>>> sound if I was awake already.
>>>>
>>>> Clifford Heath.
>>>
>>> My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
>>> starting about 4 AM.
>>>
>>> He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
>>> wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.
>>
>> Well done by your Dad. It clearly did you good too, it would have been a
>> hard life. I respect folk that can do that kind of service work. A
>> school-friend ran behind a garbage truck carrying and emptying bins for
>> six months before he started his PhD in Ag Sci. As well as him becoming
>> incredibly strong, it has had lifelong health benefits.
>>
>> I assume horses weren't used in the crazy-steep parts of San Francisco.
>> I wonder how milk was delivered there?
>>
>> CH
>
> That was in New Orleans, almost optically flat.
>
> I'm NOT so old as to remember milk being delivered by horses.
>

https://www.splicetoday.com/writing/freihofer-s-bakery-wagons

You don't have to be completely ancient to remember bread being
delivered by horses. We lived in the country so bread and milk was
delivered by truck but they kept the horses in the city until '62.

There was also a greengrocer who used a horse drawn wagon where my uncle
lived.

On 3/6/22 04:12, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 14:49:59 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/6/22 09:53, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
>>>>> On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
>>>>>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
>>>>>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
>>>>>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
>>>>>> comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
>>>>>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
>>>>>> electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
>>>>> residents early in the morning?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's different than how things are in the US where all service
>>>>> vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
>>>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
>>>>> income is 100 grand or over
>>>>
>>>> I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
>>>> the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the
>>>> horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
>>>> sound if I was awake already.
>>>>
>>>> Clifford Heath.
>>>
>>> My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
>>> starting about 4 AM.
>>>
>>> He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
>>> wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.
>>
>> Well done by your Dad. It clearly did you good too, it would have been a
>> hard life. I respect folk that can do that kind of service work. A
>> school-friend ran behind a garbage truck carrying and emptying bins for
>> six months before he started his PhD in Ag Sci. As well as him becoming
>> incredibly strong, it has had lifelong health benefits.
>>
>> I assume horses weren't used in the crazy-steep parts of San Francisco.
>> I wonder how milk was delivered there?
>>
>> CH
>
> That was in New Orleans, almost optically flat.
>
> I'm NOT so old as to remember milk being delivered by horses.

Well, I'm only 62. The horse kept pace without needing a driver, so the
milk round was quicker than it could be with any one person in a truck.

On 6/2/2022 8:48 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 06/01/2022 11:34 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> here's very little cost to *keeping* extra vehicles when all you have
>> to do is put Stabil in the tank (or drain it). How do you keep a
>> spare EV -- and ensure that it remains driveable (without becoming a
>> slave to that possession)?
>>
>> A gas guzzler can sit for a decade and resume service with the introduction
>> of fuel. The *mechanism* doesn't degrade while being stored (within
>> reason).
>> Do you pull the battery from your EV while it's not being driven? ("drain
>> the tank") How do you maintain it in that state -- trade it in for cash?
>> A gas tank doesn't need any special care (if drained) to be usable years
>> later!
>
> I do pull the battery out of the pickup and put it on a tender in the winter. I

But that's the *starter* battery (?). What would you do if you had an
EV that you wanted to sideline for months (or longer)?

> try to take it for a ride once a year but with gas headed toward $5 it might be
> a really short ride this year. But you're correct. In this state after 12 years
> you go to a permanent plate so the only cost is insurance.

Vehicles are treated as "property", here. So, annual registration is a
function of assessed ORIGINAL value.

E.g., a $40K vehicle would cost ~$670 to register, for the first year;
~$560 for the second, etc. There's a definite advantage to keeping an
older vehicle, even if you put a lot of money into it, changing it's
ACTUAL (resale) value.

And, our climate means no worries of rust eating away at your frame, etc.
So, older vehicles are sought out and restored.

[I've a friend with a ~1920s vintage touring car in which he's "quietly"
installed a custom, fully blown, ~700? HP plant, reinforced the frame,
etc. It's just a straight-line car as it has stability problems when
you open it up. The joke is that the *paint* holds the body together.
Engine set him back close to $50K. (not hard to imagine as a big block
crate can run $15K) But, it costs next to nothing to register it, due
to it's ORIGINAL "VIN". Insurance? Now that's a different story...]

Lots of folks who are into restoring to original state/configuration.
That seems silly, to me; take it in a different direction and make
something unique from it!

On 01/06/2022 22:08, bitrex wrote:
> On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.
>>
>> https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/
>>
>>
>> Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
>> comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
>> electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)
>>
>> Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.
>
> Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
> residents early in the morning?

Got it in one. They didn't have to be very quick either since it is
entirely short bursts of stop start driving. The weight of the batteries
was huge though. The odd one would have hand brake failure on a hill and
run away down it destroying whatever it happened to hit at the bottom.

They were not quite silent either since the bottles would make chink
chink noises rattling around in their metal frame carriers.
>
> That's different than how things are in the US where all service
> vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
> income is 100 grand or over

Par for the course these days. Our bin men don't get to my village until
about lunchtime so it isn't a problem for me.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 10:51:50 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:
> > What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of
> > entitlement.
> >
> > 2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly
> > poisoned.
> Not true.
>
> The Victorians also used lead piping for drinking water and were not
> poisoned by doing that at all. Only the most acidic soft water off
> peatlands will dissolve any lead from water pipes. Most ordinary tap
> water has enough dissolved salts in it that the inside of the pipe furs
> up within the first year of use and no lead then escapes. The very name
> "plumber" comes from the usage of lead pipes until very recently.

The 19th century Victorians used white lead for caulking things like gutters and water cisterns fed by them. Cisterns were ubiquitous in urban and rural settings. All the manufacturing centers, everywhere, were unbelievable disasters. You want acid rain? Just burn coal like the Victorians did, for everything. Germany was another hellacious hellhole coal burner up to fairly recently, perpetually suffocated by coal burning emissions. In places like Essen you didn't have enough visibility to see clearly across the street, and that was 1960s. There's no question all the heavy metal pollution and contamination made them into a nation of lunatics by the early 20th century. It's no coincidence that was the first generation completely saturated with contamination since they were conceived. The English were not much better, maybe being an island resulted in slightly better air circulation than the on the continent.

> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:19:52 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
<snip>

One of these days you'll get the education of a fifth grader.

The German uber alles doesn't have the meaning you ignorant, uneducated people think. It was used to reinforce the idea of a nation of unified states to take precedence over regional state loyalties. It doesn't mean the Germans considered themselves as above the rest of the world.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Deutschlandlied

On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>>>>> "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
>>>>>> walk."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
>>>>>> was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
>>>>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
>>>>> sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
>>>>> stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
>>>>> personal preferences.
>>>>
>>>> The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
>>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.
>>>
>>> When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
>>> things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
>>> really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
>>> when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.
>>>
>>> It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
>>> area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night
>>> and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.
>>
>>
>> The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or
>> near their charming neighborhood.
>>
>> Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what
>> you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive
>> real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.
>>
>> <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>
>>
>>
>> You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city
>> limits for three times the price.
>
> People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
> obviously think it's worth it.
>
> Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within
> walking distance of the google bus stops.
>

Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s paying
several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset
worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to
afford that.

One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a
racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're
white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar
job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a
person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same
skillset.