On 6/11/2022 9:19 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 06/11/2022 06:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
>
>> There's a large produce area (two or three times what you'd find at
>> a regular supermarket) full of the odd fruits and vegetables you'd
>> expect at such a market. I don't think you can find *celery* :>
>
> I've wondered about the source of the produce. Somewhere there must be farmers
> specializing in a niche market. There is a local Hmong community and the
> extended Moua family has taken over the farmer's market as far as produce goes
> but there is nothing exotic. They may grow some for their own consumption.

I suspect you can buy damn near anything, if you are a produce buyer
(and willing to pay "the going rate"). We are increasingly seeing
more exotic items even in mainstream grocers -- dragon fruit, lychee,
kiwi, jicama, leeks, bok choy, coconuts, etc. There was an excellent
produce market in one of the Chicago suburbs that I used to frequent
as they seemed to have damn near anything you could want, and at any *time*
you wanted it (obviously drawing on suppliers from around the world
to compensate for different growing seasons). It's not just "blueberries,
lettuce and celery", anymore.

>> It is surprisingly easy to code under such an environment -- but, only if
>> you're writing in ASM.
>
> What else is there? Okay, I'm lazy and even when I messing around with the
> Atmel chips on the Arduinos I use their version of C.

I strongly resist writing anything in ASM, nowadays. I'm forced to,
of course, for some of the "locore" stuff, context save/restore, etc.
But, even ISRs get written in HLLs. It's just too much of a PITA
to port anything else!

I often have to resort to using fixed point (not integer) math in
places (e.g., Qm.n) when I can't count on having floating
point hardware available (and when a FP library is just too damn
slow). But, that's still tolerable. Esp if expressed in a HLL.

>>> When I interviewed for my present job one of the questions started
>>> with 'assume unlimited memory' and I thought 'Oh, hell...'.
>>
>> It is a VERY different mindset. You focus on what you want to do
>> instead of
>> always trying to tweek things for efficiency.
>
> GUIs were another learning experience. Driving a custom LCD display is a bit
> different than building a Motif blivit.

IME, folks opt for OTS solutions when they are faced with "traditional" UIs
(vs. "dedicated buttons"). They seem intimidated by the notion of writing a
BLTer and building an image from component parts, glyphs, etc. Likewise,
the notion of an up-down keyboard confuses; seemingly unable to think in
terms of anything but "keystrokes".

I've seen lots of designs that opted to be "PC-based" simply because
the developer was hoping to leverage the user interface hardware and API...
and, chose to ignore just how many hoops he'd have to jump through to
make the code act in the way they *needed* it to act under that OS.

>>> Network traffic has been a problem for us. It's gotten a lot better
>>> but in the past sites with iffy networks would complain 'your software
>>> is too slow' and we would answer 'your network is a pos'. Not exactly
>>> a productive discussion. However VM's have also gotten more prevalent.
>>> Sure, you can spin up 5 VMs on that server; now about that one NIC...
>>
>> Yup. I have 4 NICs in my ESXi server just to ensure there's no network
>> bottleneck. Likewise on the SAN that hosts the VMDKs.
>
> The bottlenecks keep moving.

Of course. But, they are effectively of the same type. Some resource
(memory, MIPS, time) that has to be shared and against which too many
"leases" have been assessed. As long as you don't stop thinking
about the details of what's under the hood, you can continue to make
intelligent design/usage choices.

My current design is "open" in much the same way that a personal computer
is open; I have no control over *what* a user will decide to add to it.
And, no control over how those things will behave.

So, I have a "workload manager" on each node that admits and ejects
processes based on its observations of how under/over-loaded the
node's resources happen to be. A developer who is piggish can
shoot himself in the foot by being too greedy; if the node is
overloaded and the workload manager can't find another node to
reduce some of the local needs, the "fat boy" can be unceremoniously
axed to enable other, less greedy processes to continue to run.

I.e., I can't force you to be benevolent/cooperative -- but I
can punish you if you aren't! :>

> Back in the day of single core processors I''d
> remind people that no matter how slick it all looked it was one processor
> running one instruction at a time. I've had to change my rant to 'sure it's got
> eight cores. That service is single threaded and only runs on one of them'.
>
>> I've not found any problem coming up with "work" for them to do.
>> Detecting commercials in broadcast TV/radio programming, training
>> speech models based on recorded phone conversations, training
>> neural nets based on observations of users' actions, etc.
>>
>> I suspect the days of "dumb" devices (previously misnamed "smart"
>> devices) will quickly be drawing to a close. It's just too cheap
>> to buy resources, nowadays (and too many younguns are using
>> these "framework" environments that aren't particularly lean)
>
> No, they're not. Angular will happily eat you out of house and home. When I got
> a new machine with 16GB of ram I thought I was in tall cotton. Then you try to
> open a link in Brave and it says 'sorry I don't have enough memory to do that'
> before the box crashes.

But you don't tend to find those sorts of bloat in *appliances*. There's
a different mindset in terms of how the hardware can be used in that it
often can't be upgraded after the sale.

> I'm on the Windows Insider dev channel for 11

My condolences. :> I *tolerate* using windows but draw the line at
developing under it! I much prefer a stationary target than one
that (seems to) change on a whim. (I avoid Linux for similar
reasons -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it!)

> so I expect little annoyances
> like that but one of the testers inadvertently went to the production 11 and
> saw the same thing last week. A couple of people got 11 and we're not exactly
> sure how but I think it was an innocuous little question during the windows
> update like 'do you want to destroy your life' that got clicked.

I don't understand how folks can NOT have control over the software
that they are exposed to -- whether it's on their PC (routine updates
of OS, apps, etc.) or in their appliances (cars, TVs, etc.).

I can much easier learn to live with a set of problems than I can
continually have to adapt to changes (which introduce yet-to-be-seen
problems)!

I particularly enjoy looking back at the detailed justifications
MS wrote for various UI/UX issues... and, how they "suddenly"
changed, over time. ("And what makes you think THESE are the
final verdict?")

On 06/12/2022 04:04 AM, Don Y wrote:

> I suspect you can buy damn near anything, if you are a produce buyer
> (and willing to pay "the going rate"). We are increasingly seeing
> more exotic items even in mainstream grocers -- dragon fruit, lychee,
> kiwi, jicama, leeks, bok choy, coconuts, etc. There was an excellent
> produce market in one of the Chicago suburbs that I used to frequent
> as they seemed to have damn near anything you could want, and at any *time*
> you wanted it (obviously drawing on suppliers from around the world
> to compensate for different growing seasons). It's not just "blueberries,
> lettuce and celery", anymore.

I wouldn't call coconuts exotic. I remember dueling with them as a kid
and the coconut usually won. A couple of the local markets have durians.
I knew what they were because a friend married a Thai woman whose family
had a durian plantation. It shares the honor with surströmming as being
a food banned on some public transportation but with durian it's
strictly the smell not the danger of the cans exploding.

If nothing else it keeps the supermarket checkers on their toes if the
stuff isn't barcoded. They have enough trouble telling a butternut from
a buttercup squash. The latter is being displaced by kabocha around here.

>> I'm on the Windows Insider dev channel for 11
>
> My condolences. :> I *tolerate* using windows but draw the line at
> developing under it! I much prefer a stationary target than one
> that (seems to) change on a whim. (I avoid Linux for similar
> reasons -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it!)

Market forces and all that. The original target was AIX on RS6000
systems. Y2K helped end that. The IBM patches required fairly recent
hardware. Many sites looked at the cost of upgrading the IBM boxes,
rolled the dice, and went to Windows. We used Linux internally for
development but only two sites used it and that was only for the servers.

MS possibly made the same mistake as IBM with Windows 11 and its
hardware requirements. So far I see no compelling reason to go to 11
particularly if it means buying new hardware.

> I don't understand how folks can NOT have control over the software
> that they are exposed to -- whether it's on their PC (routine updates
> of OS, apps, etc.) or in their appliances (cars, TVs, etc.).

The showstopper for my personal laptop is the requirement to log on to
your Microsoft account to set up 11. When I set up the new 10 laptop it
was not even connected to the net, and I run as a local user. It whines
every now and then about not being connected to an account but that can
be ignored.

> I particularly enjoy looking back at the detailed justifications
> MS wrote for various UI/UX issues... and, how they "suddenly"
> changed, over time. ("And what makes you think THESE are the
> final verdict?")

A lot of developers are gun shy. UWP has been widely ignored. MS would
love to get rid of WPF and WinForms but it's not happening. They could
shoot Silverlight but that wasn't all that popular.

MS has Apple envy but never developed the fanatical fan base that will
jump through any hoop.

On 6/12/2022 11:28 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On 06/12/2022 04:04 AM, Don Y wrote:
>
>> I suspect you can buy damn near anything, if you are a produce buyer
>> (and willing to pay "the going rate"). We are increasingly seeing
>> more exotic items even in mainstream grocers -- dragon fruit, lychee,
>> kiwi, jicama, leeks, bok choy, coconuts, etc. There was an excellent
>> produce market in one of the Chicago suburbs that I used to frequent
>> as they seemed to have damn near anything you could want, and at any *time*
>> you wanted it (obviously drawing on suppliers from around the world
>> to compensate for different growing seasons). It's not just "blueberries,
>> lettuce and celery", anymore.
>
> I wouldn't call coconuts exotic. I remember dueling with them as a kid and the
> coconut usually won. A couple of the local markets have durians. I knew what
> they were because a friend married a Thai woman whose family had a durian
> plantation. It shares the honor with surströmming as being a food banned on
> some public transportation but with durian it's strictly the smell not the
> danger of the cans exploding.

It depends on what the local population (customer base) wants to buy.
Growing up, never any demand for coconuts, plantains, dragon fruit,
kiwi, etc. You saw generic fruits and vegetables (tomatoes, cukes,
various melons, turnips, radishes, romaine, etc.) nothing like arugula
(but endive!) or napa cabbage or jicama or...

Similarly, you wouldn't find Gouda but would find various Romanos,
some Swiss and maybe "American". And, far more cheeses that were
aged long enough to be used for grating. Hot dogs/sausage were
made by local suppliers -- but ne'er a taco in sight!

> If nothing else it keeps the supermarket checkers on their toes if the stuff
> isn't barcoded. They have enough trouble telling a butternut from a buttercup
> squash. The latter is being displaced by kabocha around here.
>
>>> I'm on the Windows Insider dev channel for 11
>>
>> My condolences. :> I *tolerate* using windows but draw the line at
>> developing under it! I much prefer a stationary target than one
>> that (seems to) change on a whim. (I avoid Linux for similar
>> reasons -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it!)
>
> Market forces and all that. The original target was AIX on RS6000 systems. Y2K
> helped end that. The IBM patches required fairly recent hardware. Many sites
> looked at the cost of upgrading the IBM boxes, rolled the dice, and went to
> Windows. We used Linux internally for development but only two sites used it
> and that was only for the servers.

Vendors want a platform that:
- their customers have adopted or will adopt
- that will continue to evolve to address new technologies and hardware
- that won't "go away" (GEM, anyone?)

*Users* want products that don't significantly change (!)

[SWMBO still runs Office 2K as she has no desire to rebuild all
of her Access DBs just because MS wanted to make changes to it!]

[[I won't move beyond W7 as I've far too many tools that I *know*
run on it (after losing some that only ran on XP) and I've no
desire to repurchase the capabilities that I already have, nor any
interest in learning yet another way to do the same thing!]]

[[[I develop SW under NetBSD largely because I can maintain the
OS and tools. No compiler extensions/non-portable pragmas -- my
code has to build under at least three different ecosystems
(x86, SPARC, ARM) and I'm not keen on getting in bed with just
a single toolchain as I can't assume folks using my codebase
will be keen on that!]]]

> MS possibly made the same mistake as IBM with Windows 11 and its hardware
> requirements. So far I see no compelling reason to go to 11 particularly if it
> means buying new hardware.

I've not seen any need (as a user) to move forward on MS's OS
offerings. I don't develop for that platform so don't care if
the platform evolves beyond me. And, I don't see any compelling
*features* that it offers as a user environment nor any compelling
APPs that are only hosted on newer versions of the OS

[If I did, I would likely just set up a small VM and not bother
moving/upgrading any of my other tools... too much inertia!]

My workstations are older but still reasonably competent (six of
them: dual CPU, 6-core Xeons, 144G RAM, 6T rust -- there's just
THAT much inertia to overcome!) and I *know* the machines spend
more time twiddling their thumbs waiting for my meatware to decide
what to do next!

[Also, growing up with dog slow development systems means my
work habits are inherently multitasking -- don't sit waiting
for a machine to finish a task, move on to some other task!]

>> I don't understand how folks can NOT have control over the software
>> that they are exposed to -- whether it's on their PC (routine updates
>> of OS, apps, etc.) or in their appliances (cars, TVs, etc.).
>
> The showstopper for my personal laptop is the requirement to log on to your
> Microsoft account to set up 11. When I set up the new 10 laptop it was not even
> connected to the net, and I run as a local user. It whines every now and then
> about not being connected to an account but that can be ignored.

My Windows machines are all HP/Dell so SLIC with a "genuine HP/Dell install
DVD" gets me past the need to activate licenses, on-line. Download the
updates of interest. Run machines air-gapped and you can largely ignore
future updates.

Other machines run NetBSD and don't have the need for "activation" (and
the updates I pursue are usually major release updates, nothing incremental)
E.g., I keep a little netbook to which I attach an external USB drive and
periodically rsync my "distfiles" archive. Then, take the netbook and the
external drive and put them back in a desk drawer. What need to update
that "appliance"? :>

I opted not to upgrade my Adobe suite (to "CC") for similar reasons.
What do I *gain* from that to justify the cost, time and *risk*?

>> I particularly enjoy looking back at the detailed justifications
>> MS wrote for various UI/UX issues... and, how they "suddenly"
>> changed, over time. ("And what makes you think THESE are the
>> final verdict?")
>
> A lot of developers are gun shy. UWP has been widely ignored. MS would love to
> get rid of WPF and WinForms but it's not happening. They could shoot
> Silverlight but that wasn't all that popular.
>
> MS has Apple envy but never developed the fanatical fan base that will jump
> through any hoop.

Windows is a Chevy; if it still runs and gets you from point A to point B,
then there's no real NEED to replace it.

Of course, all software vendors (and product vendors, in general) WANT you
to think you need the latest and greatest. Otherwise, you might be happy
with what you've *already* purchased! :-/

Sunday lunch: oriental meal. Finestkind!

On 06/12/2022 01:20 PM, Don Y wrote:
> Similarly, you wouldn't find Gouda but would find various Romanos,
> some Swiss and maybe "American". And, far more cheeses that were
> aged long enough to be used for grating. Hot dogs/sausage were
> made by local suppliers -- but ne'er a taco in sight!

Tacos were some sort of Califoria in-joke like Knotts Berry Farm that I
didn't get as a kid. For that matter pizza was something you got from
shady looking taverns run by gangsters. We did have a variety of cheeses
and I was adventuresome although my go-around with Sap Sago (Schabziger)
was puzzling. Gjetost was much more satisfying. I still get that from
time to time.

https://wnyt.com/news/hazmat-situation-tobins-first-prize-demolition-colonie-albany-county/6418399/

Tobin's was the major hot dog supplier although there were several
smaller stores that made a variety of wursts. Fortunately the hazmat
situation was only ammonia from the cooling apparatus and not a trove of
heavy metals mixed in with the hot dogs.

There was a bar/eatery in Kitterey ME that catered to the shipyard. We
were working on refinishing a wooden hulled yawl at a boatyard also in
Kittery and went there for lunch one day. 'Taco' was on the chalkboard
and seemed a little expensive but I figured why not. The taco came in a
bowl with the shell in the bottom layered with the lettuce and meat
sauce. It was like they'd read a recipe but had never seen a taco and
played it by ear.

Not surprising for Maine. My lead tech asked me one day what you did wit
those shiny black things that were starting to appear in the vegetable
section. This was an intelligent woman in her 30's with a family that
had never encountered an eggplant.

I did eventually make it to Knotts Berry Farm in the '90s. It was
entertaining and not as disappointing as when I made it to Haight
Ashbury 20 years too late.

On 6/12/2022 6:12 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 06/12/2022 01:20 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> Similarly, you wouldn't find Gouda but would find various Romanos,
>> some Swiss and maybe "American". And, far more cheeses that were
>> aged long enough to be used for grating. Hot dogs/sausage were
>> made by local suppliers -- but ne'er a taco in sight!
>
> Tacos were some sort of Califoria in-joke like Knotts Berry Farm that I didn't
> get as a kid.

I never heard the term growing up -- the "communities" were all composed
of european descendants so lots of "ethnic" foodstuffs in THAT sense.
I probably knew 30 different pasta shapes (and the advantages of each)
and at least that many different pasta *dishes*, sauce styles, etc.
Galobki, pierogi, potato pancakes, etc.

My favorite pasta shapes being cavatelli and fusilli col buco. The
former I make, from time to time. The latter are a technological
wonder, to me!

> For that matter pizza was something you got from shady looking
> taverns run by gangsters.

Pizza was either NY style (purchased) or "italian bakery style"
(the latter being far superior and considerably less greasy).

> We did have a variety of cheeses and I was
> adventuresome although my go-around with Sap Sago (Schabziger) was puzzling.
> Gjetost was much more satisfying. I still get that from time to time.

One thing I noticed, later in life, was that many dishes that we made with
ricotta were, instead, made with meat, in The West. This was a delightful
revelation as ricotta falls in the "I don't like cheese" category!

My first homemade raviolis were meat made and I had three helpings.
(By contrast, my folks had to buy meat ones "special" for me
growing up as I wouldn't eat the cheese ones that they all ate)

Likewise, my first "western lasagna" was made grinding up a *roast*
to get the ground meat for the filling -- with just a nominal
amount of ricotta as window dressing.

> Tobin's was the major hot dog supplier although there were several smaller
> stores that made a variety of wursts. Fortunately the hazmat situation was only
> ammonia from the cooling apparatus and not a trove of heavy metals mixed in
> with the hot dogs.

Martin Rosol's was the local vendor for most "sausage-like" items. You could
pick up "fresh" and eat, that evening.

> There was a bar/eatery in Kitterey ME that catered to the shipyard. We were
> working on refinishing a wooden hulled yawl at a boatyard also in Kittery and
> went there for lunch one day. 'Taco' was on the chalkboard and seemed a little
> expensive but I figured why not. The taco came in a bowl with the shell in the
> bottom layered with the lettuce and meat sauce. It was like they'd read a
> recipe but had never seen a taco and played it by ear.

Too funny.

> Not surprising for Maine. My lead tech asked me one day what you did wit those
> shiny black things that were starting to appear in the vegetable section. This
> was an intelligent woman in her 30's with a family that had never encountered
> an eggplant.

For me, the OhMiGosh moments have been encountering "produce" in its natural
state. E.g., you KNOW citrus grows on trees but seeing them is a different
story. And, more exotic varieties even moreso (e.g., the sanguinellos are
actually *red* skinned, at maturity)

"Gee, that's garlic!" "Wow, is that how artichokes grow?" (if you've ever
seen one in bloom, you'd lament the fact that it was harvested before that
time)

We grow sage and rosemary (but not to harvest) and the dogs would come in
the house *stinking* of those scents (a little bit goes a long way!). You
had to wonder if it was deliberate, on their part!

Pineapple is a surprise when you see it "native". As are cashews.
Pomegranates are interesting to watch mature as you can see the vestigial
flower in it's "ass".

> I did eventually make it to Knotts Berry Farm in the '90s. It was entertaining
> and not as disappointing as when I made it to Haight Ashbury 20 years too late.

That;s about the timeframe I visited KBF. "Oh, a DisneyLand wannabe!"
I'd been to DisneyWorld some decades earlier. And, of course,
Riverside Park, Lake Compounce, Catskill Game Farm, etc.

Didn't make it to CA until the early 80's (traveling for work). Recall
standing in the back of a pickup -- in the rain -- driving to San Rafael
(Guide Dogs for the Blind) singing GD songs (no room in the cab as the
two passengers were blind and we obviously needed a sighted driver!)

On 06/12/2022 09:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> Tacos were some sort of Califoria in-joke like Knotts Berry Farm that
>> I didn't get as a kid.
>
> I never heard the term growing up -- the "communities" were all composed
> of european descendants so lots of "ethnic" foodstuffs in THAT sense.
> I probably knew 30 different pasta shapes (and the advantages of each)
> and at least that many different pasta *dishes*, sauce styles, etc.
> Galobki, pierogi, potato pancakes, etc

The tacos and KBF were from California TV programs. 'And the prize is a
pass for two to KBF' was usually said that led me to believe it wasn't
rated too highly.

> My favorite pasta shapes being cavatelli and fusilli col buco. The
> former I make, from time to time. The latter are a technological
> wonder, to me!

I recall spaghetti, lasangna, maybe shells, egg noodles, and the
ubiquitous elbow macaroni. 'Pasta' wasn't used as a descriptor with the
exception of pasta fagioli, but that was said as one word 'pastafazoo'.
When pasta became more widely used I thought it was sort of an upper
crust word for spaghetti.

>> For that matter pizza was something you got from shady looking taverns
>> run by gangsters.
>
> Pizza was either NY style (purchased) or "italian bakery style"
> (the latter being far superior and considerably less greasy).

It was NYS so I guess it was NY style by definition. A far as I knew it
was just pizza. My uncle lived in the city and I liked going to his
place. He'd phone the bar at the of the block and later I would go pick
it up at the ladies' entrance. We never had pizza at home s it was a treat.

That was much better than when the half in the bag adults would try to
make a pizza from a Chef Boyardee pizza kit.

> One thing I noticed, later in life, was that many dishes that we made with
> ricotta were, instead, made with meat, in The West. This was a delightful
> revelation as ricotta falls in the "I don't like cheese" category!

For me, ricotta falls into the 'gimme a spoon' category.

> My first homemade raviolis were meat made and I had three helpings.
> (By contrast, my folks had to buy meat ones "special" for me
> growing up as I wouldn't eat the cheese ones that they all ate)

As far as I can remember any ravioli I've ever had came out of a
Franco-American can.

> Likewise, my first "western lasagna" was made grinding up a *roast*
> to get the ground meat for the filling -- with just a nominal
> amount of ricotta as window dressing.

I haven't dine lasagna in a long time. I think the last effort was
spinach and a variety of cheeses.

> "Gee, that's garlic!" "Wow, is that how artichokes grow?" (if you've ever
> seen one in bloom, you'd lament the fact that it was harvested before that
> time)

Shades of the Gilroy Garlic Festival. It's often foggy on that stretch
but you know when you're getting close. I've planted garlic when the
cloves were sprouting just to see what I'd get. I've never seen an
artichoke in bloom. I've eaten pickled artichoke hearts but never did
the field strip the thing and dip the ends in hollandaise sauce thing.
Life is too short.

> Pineapple is a surprise when you see it "native". As are cashews.
> Pomegranates are interesting to watch mature as you can see the vestigial
> flower in it's "ass".

Ah, cashews, a relative of poison ivy. Forget the first person to eat a
lobster; who was the first person to figure out there was something
edible in there.

> That;s about the timeframe I visited KBF. "Oh, a DisneyLand wannabe!"
> I'd been to DisneyWorld some decades earlier. And, of course,
> Riverside Park, Lake Compounce, Catskill Game Farm, etc.

I liked the Catskill Game Farm. No Disneyland, Sherman's Amusement Park
at Caroga Lake was the local hot spot. Averill Park was down to a
carousel and miniature train ride when I was a kid but it was only a few
miles away. It's claim to fame is Jerry Lewis once worked as a soda jerk
at the drug store. Later he was just a jerk.

A couple of summers we went to Old Orchard. It was seedy the last time I
was there but I think it's made a comeback.

The trucking company I worked for had a terminal near State College and
Ball Rd, a mile from Disneyland. I was in town for the Rodney King
riots, sitting in my truck reading, when Dizzyland had their evening
fireworks extravaganza. Needless to say I was out of the truck locked
and loaded before I figured out what it was.

Never went there although I did make it to Disneyworld in the '80s.

On 6/12/2022 10:50 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 06/12/2022 09:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>> Tacos were some sort of Califoria in-joke like Knotts Berry Farm that
>>> I didn't get as a kid.
>>
>> I never heard the term growing up -- the "communities" were all composed
>> of european descendants so lots of "ethnic" foodstuffs in THAT sense.
>> I probably knew 30 different pasta shapes (and the advantages of each)
>> and at least that many different pasta *dishes*, sauce styles, etc.
>> Galobki, pierogi, potato pancakes, etc
>
> The tacos and KBF were from California TV programs. 'And the prize is a pass
> for two to KBF' was usually said that led me to believe it wasn't rated too
> highly.

Ah. So you had to live there to understand the reference.

>> My favorite pasta shapes being cavatelli and fusilli col buco. The
>> former I make, from time to time. The latter are a technological
>> wonder, to me!
>
> I recall spaghetti, lasangna, maybe shells, egg noodles, and the ubiquitous
> elbow macaroni. 'Pasta' wasn't used as a descriptor with the exception of pasta
> fagioli, but that was said as one word 'pastafazoo'. When pasta became more
> widely used I thought it was sort of an upper crust word for spaghetti.

/Pasta e fagioli/ -- pasta and beans. A terrible thing to do to pasta!

Fettuccine, Linguine, Spaghetti, Spaghettini/Vermicelli, Capellini -- different
thicknesses of long, straight noodles. Bucatini is spaghetti with a *hole*
through the entire length (dunno how it is done!) Fusilli col buco is
bucatini wrapped around a ~1/8" dia form before drying (like a really long
screw-shape!)

Conchiglie (shells) tiny, small, medium, large -- too easily stuffed (with
ricotta!) :<

Penne, Ziti, Mostaccioli, Rigatoni, Tortiglioni -- tubes with or without
"decorated" exterior surfaces (e.g., ribs)

Farfalle (bow ties), Rotini/fusilli (cork screws), Rotelle (like Conestoga
wagon wheels)

Manicotti, cannelloni -- the pasta equivalent of a cannoli -- more ricotta.
Ick!

Pastina (diced spaghetti?), orzo (rice-shaped).

Fresh made capellini is delightful! I don't think you even need to
CHEW it! Cavatelli are nice and heavy -- but not as heavy as gnocchi.
Fusilli col buco is just plain *fun*!

The problem with most pastas (when it comes to hand-made) is that
it's too hard to make extra. So, you end up eating the entire batch.

>>> For that matter pizza was something you got from shady looking taverns
>>> run by gangsters.
>>
>> Pizza was either NY style (purchased) or "italian bakery style"
>> (the latter being far superior and considerably less greasy).
>
> It was NYS so I guess it was NY style by definition. A far as I knew it was
> just pizza. My uncle lived in the city and I liked going to his place. He'd
> phone the bar at the of the block and later I would go pick it up at the
> ladies' entrance. We never had pizza at home s it was a treat.

We'd drive into the city for shopping trips. Meals at Grotta Azzurra
on Mulberry. Sweets at Ferrara's on Grand. Not the sort of neighborhoods
you'd want to get lost in... <frown> (and ignore the nice gentlemen with
the black suits!)

> That was much better than when the half in the bag adults would try to make a
> pizza from a Chef Boyardee pizza kit.

Any pasta in a can has to be pretty gross. I recall eating C-rations of
spaghetti... I never knew pasta could be *fatty*! :-/

>> One thing I noticed, later in life, was that many dishes that we made with
>> ricotta were, instead, made with meat, in The West. This was a delightful
>> revelation as ricotta falls in the "I don't like cheese" category!
>
> For me, ricotta falls into the 'gimme a spoon' category.

You can make fresh ricotta with heavy cream and milk "despoiled" with lemon
juice or vinegar. I'd rather see the heavy cream get used to make
ice cream!

>> My first homemade raviolis were meat made and I had three helpings.
>> (By contrast, my folks had to buy meat ones "special" for me
>> growing up as I wouldn't eat the cheese ones that they all ate)
>
> As far as I can remember any ravioli I've ever had came out of a
> Franco-American can.

We'd purchase them from The Ravioli Kitchen (name sure is apropos, eh?).
You could freeze them if not eaten "fresh".

>> Likewise, my first "western lasagna" was made grinding up a *roast*
>> to get the ground meat for the filling -- with just a nominal
>> amount of ricotta as window dressing.
>
> I haven't dine lasagna in a long time. I think the last effort was spinach and
> a variety of cheeses.

I now make a veggie lasagna as SWMBO isn't keen on meat and I'm not keen on
cheese. It's surprisingly good -- mainly because of the flavorings of the
sauce. But, it's a PITA to make as you have to prep the noodles, all of the
veggies, etc. For that much effort, I'd rather something tastier!

>> "Gee, that's garlic!" "Wow, is that how artichokes grow?" (if you've ever
>> seen one in bloom, you'd lament the fact that it was harvested before that
>> time)
>
> Shades of the Gilroy Garlic Festival. It's often foggy on that stretch but you
> know when you're getting close. I've planted garlic when the cloves were
> sprouting just to see what I'd get.

The plant produces seed at the top as well as cloves at the bottom.
The seed at top takes two years (crops) to yield good garlic.

> I've never seen an artichoke in bloom.

<https://i.redd.it/aeft36vzsw4z.jpg>

The plants are pretty tall -- they're a type of thistle. Of course, once
it blooms, there's no value to eating it!

> I've
> eaten pickled artichoke hearts but never did the field strip the thing and dip
> the ends in hollandaise sauce thing. Life is too short.

I prepare them by stuffing each leaf with a seasoned breadcrumb mixture
(cheese, salt, pepper, garlic, bread crumbs) drizzled with olive oil. Then,
steaming for a long time (I have special stands that support each artichoke
over a water bath in a covered sauce pot). Then, baked.

Peel leaves (from bottom up), slip in mouth, close jaw, scrape bread crumb
mixture and "meat" of the leaf into your mouth. It's akin to eating pistachios
with about the same level of satisfaction. Though I can't eat more than two
as they are kinda rich.

I always avoided the hearts. Then, late in life, realized how foolish I'd
been!

>> That;s about the timeframe I visited KBF. "Oh, a DisneyLand wannabe!"
>> I'd been to DisneyWorld some decades earlier. And, of course,
>> Riverside Park, Lake Compounce, Catskill Game Farm, etc.
>
> I liked the Catskill Game Farm. No Disneyland, Sherman's Amusement Park at
> Caroga Lake was the local hot spot. Averill Park was down to a carousel and
> miniature train ride when I was a kid but it was only a few miles away. It's
> claim to fame is Jerry Lewis once worked as a soda jerk at the drug store.
> Later he was just a jerk.

Lake Compounce (poor man's disneyland) had a small train that circled the
lake. Train was originally on the grounds of the Gillette "castle".

> A couple of summers we went to Old Orchard. It was seedy the last time I was
> there but I think it's made a comeback.
>
> The trucking company I worked for had a terminal near State College and Ball
> Rd, a mile from Disneyland. I was in town for the Rodney King riots, sitting in
> my truck reading, when Dizzyland had their evening fireworks extravaganza.
> Needless to say I was out of the truck locked and loaded before I figured out
> what it was.

Visited a colleague in SoCal and was treated to a *day* at DisneyLand.
After dark, everyone gathered at the water's edge ("What the hell are
we doing, here?"). Delightful show on the island, fireworks and
"Tinker Bell" rides a wire down from the top of the Castle (midnight?).

My visits to DisneyWorld never extended past evening so this was
quite a surprise.

> Never went there although I did make it to Disneyworld in the '80s.

I heard COuntry Bear Jamboree had been shipped off (Japan) at one
point. But, I've also heard it is back (in Orlando). Dunno.

Of course, the animatronics look hokey, now. But, as a youngster,
they were interesting.

On May 29, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
> care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
> better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.

Our standard of living can be measured by the number of BTU
consumed per capita, annually.

The reason we all live like kings, today, is due to the magnificent job
done by the energy industry, coal --> petroleum --> gas

--
Rich

On May 29, Ricky wrote:
> What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of entitlement.
> Convenience über alles!

'convenience' is a synonym for freedom.

Try incarceration sometime, to experience inconvenience -

--
Rich

On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 4:42:22 PM UTC-4, RichD wrote:
> On May 29, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> > Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
> > care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
> > better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.
>
> Our standard of living can be measured by the number of BTU
> consumed per capita, annually.
>
> The reason we all live like kings, today, is due to the magnificent job
> done by the energy industry, coal --> petroleum --> gas

That is very true. It is very addictive as well. That was my point. So addictive, in fact, that even in the face of altering our plant's climate, possibly permanently, some of us live in denial and choose to continue on the same path of excessive consumption that has pointed us in this direction. Slow down? How absurd!!! Turn back? Of course not!

That's called, "entitlement".

Good thing technology will deal with the issue, hopefully, in time.

--

Rick C.

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