On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 09:30:40 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On 1/18/2024 9:25 AM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:08:35 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:21:49 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing
>>>>>> to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to
>>>>>> under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and
>>>>>> a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute
>>>>>> as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this
>>>>>> you might not believe that it is real.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom, you've so far failed to tell us about your "direct experience" with
>>>>> EVs. Did you forget?
>>>>>
>>>>> My direct experience today: It was about 15 degrees Fahrenheit when I
>>>>> got in my car, having charged it overnight in my detached unheated
>>>>> garage. The predicted range was 220 miles, IIRC. That's a bit less than
>>>>> the EPA rated range of 239 mlles. I drove roughly 20 miles, and the
>>>>> predicted range at the end was just under 200 miles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your "from 330 miles to under 75 miles" is certainly not my "direct
>>>>> experience." So please tell us in detail about your "direct experience"
>>>>> with EVs in cold temperatures!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Another undocumented anecdote from Krygowsky.
>>>>
>>> Be that as it may it corresponds with my 2nd experience and folks reporting
>>> experiences. Tom’s is click bate type of reporting, clearly the range takes
>>> a hit at motorway speeds and cold, for example MG5 estate (about only EV
>>> estate) has a + 300 mile range but at motorways drops to just sub 200 which
>>> for my uses would be a bit tedious as I’d need to stop and give it at least
>>> a 30min charge, rural wales isn’t known for its availability of chargers!
>>>
>>> But Toms range drop is frankly unbelievable, ie just because you don’t like
>>> Frank is colouring your views.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Actually, I simply doubt Krygowski's honesty. That doubt is based on
>> my observation of his always having an undocumented anecdote about a
>> "friend" that supports his position. Given his bossy, abrasive,
>> narcissistic personality I doubt he has many friends.
>
>"ie just because you don’t like Frank is colouring your views.
> >>
>Roger Merriman"
>
>
>> He apparently
>> believes that undocumented anecdotes is a valid argument.
>
>at least he doesn't believe unsubstantiated opinion is a valid argument

I'm not arguing with you, Junior. Arguments are about persuasion, and
changing people's minds. Unlike you, I have no interest in trying to
changing anyone's mind about anything. I just enjoy triggering you
into expressing your hate.

Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:35:15 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:08:35 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:21:49 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing
>>>>>>> to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to
>>>>>>> under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and
>>>>>>> a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute
>>>>>>> as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this
>>>>>>> you might not believe that it is real.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom, you've so far failed to tell us about your "direct experience" with
>>>>>> EVs. Did you forget?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My direct experience today: It was about 15 degrees Fahrenheit when I
>>>>>> got in my car, having charged it overnight in my detached unheated
>>>>>> garage. The predicted range was 220 miles, IIRC. That's a bit less than
>>>>>> the EPA rated range of 239 mlles. I drove roughly 20 miles, and the
>>>>>> predicted range at the end was just under 200 miles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your "from 330 miles to under 75 miles" is certainly not my "direct
>>>>>> experience." So please tell us in detail about your "direct experience"
>>>>>> with EVs in cold temperatures!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Another undocumented anecdote from Krygowsky.
>>>>>
>>>> Be that as it may it corresponds with my 2nd experience and folks reporting
>>>> experiences. Tom?s is click bate type of reporting, clearly the range takes
>>>> a hit at motorway speeds and cold, for example MG5 estate (about only EV
>>>> estate) has a + 300 mile range but at motorways drops to just sub 200 which
>>>> for my uses would be a bit tedious as I?d need to stop and give it at least
>>>> a 30min charge, rural wales isn?t known for its availability of chargers!
>>>>
>>>> But Toms range drop is frankly unbelievable, ie just because you don?t like
>>>> Frank is colouring your views.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> Actually, I simply doubt Krygowski's honesty. That doubt is based on
>>> my observation of his always having an undocumented anecdote about a
>>> "friend" that supports his position. Given his bossy, abrasive,
>>> narcissistic personality I doubt he has many friends. He apparently
>>> believes that undocumented anecdotes is a valid argument.
>>>
>> That’s fine, but in this instance he’s correct, ie battery’s don’t drop to
>> what 1/3 of range even the much smaller and with out temperature regulation
>> (some EV heat there battery packs and most have fans to cool) E MTB range
>> drop isn’t huge.
>>
>> Some batteries respond to temperature worse I found the AA batteries for my
>> torch would suffer a significant loss, though my present lights it’s
>> difficult to detect any difference.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> I'm not arguing about the EV's battery, I'm just saying that an
> undocumented anecdote isn't a valid argument.
>
With EV ranges “real world” range are for most it would seem more accurate
than the official numbers, in the same way that the rolling drums even for
road isn’t the same as real world testing for bikes and so on.

And Frank doesn’t seem to be a EV fan boy as ever get some who can’t see
the disadvantages particularly as it’s definitely an evolving technology.

Roger Merriman

Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:41:41 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 06:10:11 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 2:07:24?PM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 04:46:23 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 1:20:31?PM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 03:22:21 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 10:34:28?AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 22:28:12 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 12:00:37?AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> driving days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dramatic:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last month:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> economics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries
>>>>>>>>>>> refusing to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop
>>>>>>>>>>> from 330 miles to under 75 miles because of temperature effects
>>>>>>>>>>> on batteries is real and a problem. Most especially with EV's on
>>>>>>>>>>> a freeway with a longer commute as they can be in the US. Unless
>>>>>>>>>>> you've had direct experience with this you might not believe that it is real.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Batteries are fine. An EV drives differently than a ICE especially
>>>>>>>>>> in city traffic.I like that. Instant torque, no jerky gearshifts,
>>>>>>>>>> nor reving motor before every gearshift, very and very
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>> Goodness! How long has it been since you drove a car? I have a Honda
>>>>>>>>> with the CRV transmission and it has none of the afflictions that you
>>>>>>>>> describe.... and it's 5 years old :-)
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A year ago I drove a 3 year old Mercedes GLA with a 7 speed, double clutch
>>>>>>>> automatic.
>>>>>>>> You are welcome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>> I haven't seen a Mercedes, auto in years and years. Were their auto
>>>>>>> transmission that bad?
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No one of the best transmission. What is your point btw. I would
>>>>>> suggest that you testdrive an EV in city traffic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>> As for me, I prefer to drive as little as possible in city traffic.
>>>>> I've done a considerable amount of city driving, a lot of it with a
>>>>> stick shift and it wasn't the transmission/clutching that bothered me,
>>>>> it was the other drivers demonstrating the immaturity.
>>>>
>>>> I drove a stick shift for 35 years because a automatic was not that
>>>> common here, sluggish and not that fuel efficient.. At a certain point I
>>>> was fed up with the constant up and down shift in city traffic. A modern
>>>> automatic was a great improvement. An EV is even better. YMMV
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>> An automatic transmission seems to be the best option for this 79 year
>>> old guy with bad knees and bad shoulders. I doubt I'll ever go EV
>>> partly because I prefer not having to plan my driving trips around the
>>> availability of charging stations and the waste of time waiting for
>>> the recharge.
>>>
>> I’d agree considering you choose to drive some 700 something miles on road
>> trips this isn’t really playing to EV strengths you could hire and so on
>> but as ever it’s easier with cars/trucks you know.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Even without my recent drving trips from Florida to Colorado and Ohio,
> we often make 200+ mile trips right here. The places we drive to
> aren't likely to have a charging station so we'd have to find another
> form of transport to get from and to a charger.
>
Even so doable with variable level of faff/change of usage. Not sure how
many trucks are EV I assume the ability to take the trike is handy, among
others.

On 1/18/2024 9:40 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:35:15 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:08:35 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:21:49 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing
>>>>>>> to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to
>>>>>>> under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and
>>>>>>> a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute
>>>>>>> as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this
>>>>>>> you might not believe that it is real.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom, you've so far failed to tell us about your "direct experience" with
>>>>>> EVs. Did you forget?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My direct experience today: It was about 15 degrees Fahrenheit when I
>>>>>> got in my car, having charged it overnight in my detached unheated
>>>>>> garage. The predicted range was 220 miles, IIRC. That's a bit less than
>>>>>> the EPA rated range of 239 mlles. I drove roughly 20 miles, and the
>>>>>> predicted range at the end was just under 200 miles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your "from 330 miles to under 75 miles" is certainly not my "direct
>>>>>> experience." So please tell us in detail about your "direct experience"
>>>>>> with EVs in cold temperatures!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Another undocumented anecdote from Krygowsky.
>>>>>
>>>> Be that as it may it corresponds with my 2nd experience and folks reporting
>>>> experiences. Tom?s is click bate type of reporting, clearly the range takes
>>>> a hit at motorway speeds and cold, for example MG5 estate (about only EV
>>>> estate) has a + 300 mile range but at motorways drops to just sub 200 which
>>>> for my uses would be a bit tedious as I?d need to stop and give it at least
>>>> a 30min charge, rural wales isn?t known for its availability of chargers!
>>>>
>>>> But Toms range drop is frankly unbelievable, ie just because you don?t like
>>>> Frank is colouring your views.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> Actually, I simply doubt Krygowski's honesty. That doubt is based on
>>> my observation of his always having an undocumented anecdote about a
>>> "friend" that supports his position. Given his bossy, abrasive,
>>> narcissistic personality I doubt he has many friends. He apparently
>>> believes that undocumented anecdotes is a valid argument.
>>>
>> That’s fine, but in this instance he’s correct, ie battery’s don’t drop to
>> what 1/3 of range even the much smaller and with out temperature regulation
>> (some EV heat there battery packs and most have fans to cool) E MTB range
>> drop isn’t huge.
>>
>> Some batteries respond to temperature worse I found the AA batteries for my
>> torch would suffer a significant loss, though my present lights it’s
>> difficult to detect any difference.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> I'm not arguing about the EV's battery, I'm just saying that an
> undocumented anecdote isn't a valid argument.

The tricycle guy isn't arguing about EV's batteries. He's just just
playing at his main hobby, which is jumping to attention and posting
nastiness whenever he sees my name.

Aside from the weirdness of his fixation with me, aside from the fact
that he almost never posts anything that isn't a grumpy complaint about
_something_ (or a statement that he's so manly he just doesn't care
about whatever topic he's responding to!) ...

Aside from those, the weirdest part is he A) complains about me not
documenting, and B) when I document something, he claims I'm bragging!

Whatever. The old fool knows so little and has done so little that he
never posts anything worthwhile, so he's easy to ignore.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 16:33:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:41:41 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 06:10:11 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 2:07:24?PM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 04:46:23 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 1:20:31?PM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 03:22:21 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 10:34:28?AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 22:28:12 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 12:00:37?AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> driving days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dramatic:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last month:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> economics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries
>>>>>>>>>>>> refusing to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop
>>>>>>>>>>>> from 330 miles to under 75 miles because of temperature effects
>>>>>>>>>>>> on batteries is real and a problem. Most especially with EV's on
>>>>>>>>>>>> a freeway with a longer commute as they can be in the US. Unless
>>>>>>>>>>>> you've had direct experience with this you might not believe that it is real.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Batteries are fine. An EV drives differently than a ICE especially
>>>>>>>>>>> in city traffic.I like that. Instant torque, no jerky gearshifts,
>>>>>>>>>>> nor reving motor before every gearshift, very and very
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>>> Goodness! How long has it been since you drove a car? I have a Honda
>>>>>>>>>> with the CRV transmission and it has none of the afflictions that you
>>>>>>>>>> describe.... and it's 5 years old :-)
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A year ago I drove a 3 year old Mercedes GLA with a 7 speed, double clutch
>>>>>>>>> automatic.
>>>>>>>>> You are welcome.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>> I haven't seen a Mercedes, auto in years and years. Were their auto
>>>>>>>> transmission that bad?
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No one of the best transmission. What is your point btw. I would
>>>>>>> suggest that you testdrive an EV in city traffic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>> As for me, I prefer to drive as little as possible in city traffic.
>>>>>> I've done a considerable amount of city driving, a lot of it with a
>>>>>> stick shift and it wasn't the transmission/clutching that bothered me,
>>>>>> it was the other drivers demonstrating the immaturity.
>>>>>
>>>>> I drove a stick shift for 35 years because a automatic was not that
>>>>> common here, sluggish and not that fuel efficient.. At a certain point I
>>>>> was fed up with the constant up and down shift in city traffic. A modern
>>>>> automatic was a great improvement. An EV is even better. YMMV
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> An automatic transmission seems to be the best option for this 79 year
>>>> old guy with bad knees and bad shoulders. I doubt I'll ever go EV
>>>> partly because I prefer not having to plan my driving trips around the
>>>> availability of charging stations and the waste of time waiting for
>>>> the recharge.
>>>>
>>> I?d agree considering you choose to drive some 700 something miles on road
>>> trips this isn?t really playing to EV strengths you could hire and so on
>>> but as ever it?s easier with cars/trucks you know.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Even without my recent drving trips from Florida to Colorado and Ohio,
>> we often make 200+ mile trips right here. The places we drive to
>> aren't likely to have a charging station so we'd have to find another
>> form of transport to get from and to a charger.
>>
>Even so doable with variable level of faff/change of usage. Not sure how
>many trucks are EV I assume the ability to take the trike is handy, among
>others.
>
>The Ford F-150 looks to be more of faff, with a just over 200 mile reported
>highway range, so would need a charge up.
>
>I’m in a broadly similar position in that my old Estate will do 450+ miles
>before I need to think about filling up, if I head west to see my folks
>it’s a 300 round trip so perfectly doable without filling up, the MG Estate
>is just shy of 200 miles and the Welsh hills have little charging stations
>and some distance between them. So I’d need to have a longer stop than
>normal to charge up in both directions, as the distance generally doesn’t
>warrant a long stop.
>
>The Rivian truck reportedly to be just shy of 300 miles at highway speeds
>which sound less faff.
>
>Realistically I’d be fine with that sort of range as any longer than 150
>ish miles I will always stop for break generally at a cafe if I can or
>something similar.
>
>Equally realistically I don’t buy new cars as I don’t use them enough to
>warrant it so it’s quite a long way off maybe another 10 years maybe less?
>
>Roger Merriman

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 11:47:08 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/18/2024 9:40 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:35:15 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:08:35 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:21:49 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing
>>>>>>>> to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to
>>>>>>>> under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and
>>>>>>>> a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute
>>>>>>>> as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this
>>>>>>>> you might not believe that it is real.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom, you've so far failed to tell us about your "direct experience" with
>>>>>>> EVs. Did you forget?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My direct experience today: It was about 15 degrees Fahrenheit when I
>>>>>>> got in my car, having charged it overnight in my detached unheated
>>>>>>> garage. The predicted range was 220 miles, IIRC. That's a bit less than
>>>>>>> the EPA rated range of 239 mlles. I drove roughly 20 miles, and the
>>>>>>> predicted range at the end was just under 200 miles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your "from 330 miles to under 75 miles" is certainly not my "direct
>>>>>>> experience." So please tell us in detail about your "direct experience"
>>>>>>> with EVs in cold temperatures!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another undocumented anecdote from Krygowsky.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Be that as it may it corresponds with my 2nd experience and folks reporting
>>>>> experiences. Tom?s is click bate type of reporting, clearly the range takes
>>>>> a hit at motorway speeds and cold, for example MG5 estate (about only EV
>>>>> estate) has a + 300 mile range but at motorways drops to just sub 200 which
>>>>> for my uses would be a bit tedious as I?d need to stop and give it at least
>>>>> a 30min charge, rural wales isn?t known for its availability of chargers!
>>>>>
>>>>> But Toms range drop is frankly unbelievable, ie just because you don?t like
>>>>> Frank is colouring your views.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I simply doubt Krygowski's honesty. That doubt is based on
>>>> my observation of his always having an undocumented anecdote about a
>>>> "friend" that supports his position. Given his bossy, abrasive,
>>>> narcissistic personality I doubt he has many friends. He apparently
>>>> believes that undocumented anecdotes is a valid argument.
>>>>
>>> That’s fine, but in this instance he’s correct, ie battery’s don’t drop to
>>> what 1/3 of range even the much smaller and with out temperature regulation
>>> (some EV heat there battery packs and most have fans to cool) E MTB range
>>> drop isn’t huge.
>>>
>>> Some batteries respond to temperature worse I found the AA batteries for my
>>> torch would suffer a significant loss, though my present lights it’s
>>> difficult to detect any difference.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> I'm not arguing about the EV's battery, I'm just saying that an
>> undocumented anecdote isn't a valid argument.
>
>The tricycle guy isn't arguing about EV's batteries. He's just just
>playing at his main hobby, which is jumping to attention and posting
>nastiness whenever he sees my name.

You earned it....

"That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence
or minimal courage and are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your
pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state.
Although I hope not.

- Frank Krygowski

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/mmxzneaxsdE/m/qYtFPpL3AAAJ

>Aside from the weirdness of his fixation with me, aside from the fact
>that he almost never posts anything that isn't a grumpy complaint about
>_something_ (or a statement that he's so manly he just doesn't care
>about whatever topic he's responding to!) ...
>
>Aside from those, the weirdest part is he A) complains about me not
>documenting, and B) when I document something, he claims I'm bragging!

Bragging is bragging, even when you say it's not:

"I ride as a competent adult on normal roads. I've taught others to do
that, and I've been recognized for such work. The remarks I posted
above were not bragging."
--Frank Krygowski

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/DyBp-Is96bs/m/d04XP9qBBwAJ

>Whatever. The old fool knows so little and has done so little that he
>never posts anything worthwhile, so he's easy to ignore.

Lots of irony there from a guy who spent most of his life standing in
front of a classroom.

On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:28:13 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 12:00:37 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > >> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > >>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
> > > > >>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
> > > > >>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
> > > > >> driving days.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
> > > > >> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
> > > > > dramatic:
> > > > >
> > > > > 2022:
> > > > > https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
> > > > >
> > > > > Last month:
> > > > > https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
> > > > >
> > > > > Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
> > > > > 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers.. I'm
> > > > > happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
> > > > > taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
> > > > > economics.
> > > > As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
> > > > based on environmental conscience.
> > > >
> > > And in my case driver experience.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this you might not believe that it is real.
> Batteries are fine. An EV drives differently than a ICE especially in city traffic.I like that. Instant torque, no jerky gearshifts, nor reving motor before every gearshift, very and very
>
> Lou
Lou, my Ford Taurus X is a SUV type of vehicle though smaller than most. It has an automatic in it. I have to be careful pressing the gas because it spins the wheels. Is that "instant torque" enough for you?

On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 6:08:39 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Catrike Ryder <Sol...@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> > On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:21:49 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/17/2024 6:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
> >>>>> based on environmental conscience.
> >>>>>
> >>>> And in my case driver experience.
> >>>>
> >>>> Lou
> >>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing
> >>> to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to
> >>> under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and
> >>> a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute
> >>> as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this
> >>> you might not believe that it is real.
> >>
> >> Tom, you've so far failed to tell us about your "direct experience" with
> >> EVs. Did you forget?
> >>
> >> My direct experience today: It was about 15 degrees Fahrenheit when I
> >> got in my car, having charged it overnight in my detached unheated
> >> garage. The predicted range was 220 miles, IIRC. That's a bit less than
> >> the EPA rated range of 239 mlles. I drove roughly 20 miles, and the
> >> predicted range at the end was just under 200 miles.
> >>
> >> Your "from 330 miles to under 75 miles" is certainly not my "direct
> >> experience." So please tell us in detail about your "direct experience"
> >> with EVs in cold temperatures!
> >
> >
> > Another undocumented anecdote from Krygowsky.
> >
> Be that as it may it corresponds with my 2nd experience and folks reporting
> experiences. Tom’s is click bate type of reporting, clearly the range takes
> a hit at motorway speeds and cold, for example MG5 estate (about only EV
> estate) has a + 300 mile range but at motorways drops to just sub 200 which
> for my uses would be a bit tedious as I’d need to stop and give it at least
> a 30min charge, rural wales isn’t known for its availability of chargers!
>
> But Toms range drop is frankly unbelievable, ie just because you don’t like
> Frank is colouring your views.
>
> Roger Merriman
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teslas-electric-vehicles-cold-weather/

With cars going dead on the freeway, that is hardly click bait. And this is mostly pro-EV reporting. 2 hours to charge because it is pulling so much electricity to heat the battery means that charging stations are only charging the vehicles to 70 or 80% This means that it is NOT 150 miles but 105 to 120 miles.at best and that is cut way the hell down because the battery heaters are drawing off a lot of energy.

Or perhaps you can reference Krygowski's +15 instead of -15 as some sort of proof of whatever the hell he thinks he's trying to prove.

If you recall, I said that there is a time and a place for EV's. That they have so few moving parts that the ONLY thing they have to replace is batteries but that is so expensive that it makes EV's only for the people that have money to burn. I really doubt that Krygowski does and the resale value of a 5 year old EV is near zero.

Toyota has announced that they are canceling EV production and are about to start marketing a water fueled engine.

On 1/18/2024 10:09 AM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 09:30:40 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/18/2024 9:25 AM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:08:35 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:21:49 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing
>>>>>>> to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to
>>>>>>> under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and
>>>>>>> a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute
>>>>>>> as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this
>>>>>>> you might not believe that it is real.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom, you've so far failed to tell us about your "direct experience" with
>>>>>> EVs. Did you forget?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My direct experience today: It was about 15 degrees Fahrenheit when I
>>>>>> got in my car, having charged it overnight in my detached unheated
>>>>>> garage. The predicted range was 220 miles, IIRC. That's a bit less than
>>>>>> the EPA rated range of 239 mlles. I drove roughly 20 miles, and the
>>>>>> predicted range at the end was just under 200 miles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your "from 330 miles to under 75 miles" is certainly not my "direct
>>>>>> experience." So please tell us in detail about your "direct experience"
>>>>>> with EVs in cold temperatures!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Another undocumented anecdote from Krygowsky.
>>>>>
>>>> Be that as it may it corresponds with my 2nd experience and folks reporting
>>>> experiences. Tom’s is click bate type of reporting, clearly the range takes
>>>> a hit at motorway speeds and cold, for example MG5 estate (about only EV
>>>> estate) has a + 300 mile range but at motorways drops to just sub 200 which
>>>> for my uses would be a bit tedious as I’d need to stop and give it at least
>>>> a 30min charge, rural wales isn’t known for its availability of chargers!
>>>>
>>>> But Toms range drop is frankly unbelievable, ie just because you don’t like
>>>> Frank is colouring your views.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> Actually, I simply doubt Krygowski's honesty. That doubt is based on
>>> my observation of his always having an undocumented anecdote about a
>>> "friend" that supports his position. Given his bossy, abrasive,
>>> narcissistic personality I doubt he has many friends.
>>
>> "ie just because you don’t like Frank is colouring your views.
>>>>
>> Roger Merriman"
>>
>>
>>> He apparently
>>> believes that undocumented anecdotes is a valid argument.
>>
>> at least he doesn't believe unsubstantiated opinion is a valid argument
>
> I'm not arguing with you, Junior. Arguments are about persuasion, and
> changing people's minds. Unlike you, I have no interest in trying to
> changing anyone's mind about anything. I just enjoy triggering you
> into expressing your hate.

and yet

"I don't understand all the hatred. " - floriduh dumbass

Now _that_, dumbass, is Irony
--
Add xx to reply

On 1/18/2024 3:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 6:08:39 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Catrike Ryder <Sol...@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:21:49 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing
>>>>> to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to
>>>>> under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and
>>>>> a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute
>>>>> as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this
>>>>> you might not believe that it is real.
>>>>
>>>> Tom, you've so far failed to tell us about your "direct experience" with
>>>> EVs. Did you forget?
>>>>
>>>> My direct experience today: It was about 15 degrees Fahrenheit when I
>>>> got in my car, having charged it overnight in my detached unheated
>>>> garage. The predicted range was 220 miles, IIRC. That's a bit less than
>>>> the EPA rated range of 239 mlles. I drove roughly 20 miles, and the
>>>> predicted range at the end was just under 200 miles.
>>>>
>>>> Your "from 330 miles to under 75 miles" is certainly not my "direct
>>>> experience." So please tell us in detail about your "direct experience"
>>>> with EVs in cold temperatures!
>>>
>>>
>>> Another undocumented anecdote from Krygowsky.
>>>
>> Be that as it may it corresponds with my 2nd experience and folks reporting
>> experiences. Tom’s is click bate type of reporting, clearly the range takes
>> a hit at motorway speeds and cold, for example MG5 estate (about only EV
>> estate) has a + 300 mile range but at motorways drops to just sub 200 which
>> for my uses would be a bit tedious as I’d need to stop and give it at least
>> a 30min charge, rural wales isn’t known for its availability of chargers!
>>
>> But Toms range drop is frankly unbelievable, ie just because you don’t like
>> Frank is colouring your views.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teslas-electric-vehicles-cold-weather/
>
> With cars going dead on the freeway, that is hardly click bait. And this is mostly pro-EV reporting. 2 hours to charge because it is pulling so much electricity to heat the battery means that charging stations are only charging the vehicles to 70 or 80% This means that it is NOT 150 miles but 105 to 120 miles.at best and that is cut way the hell down because the battery heaters are drawing off a lot of energy.
>
> Or perhaps you can reference Krygowski's +15 instead of -15 as some sort of proof of whatever the hell he thinks he's trying to prove.
>
> If you recall, I said that there is a time and a place for EV's. That they have so few moving parts that the ONLY thing they have to replace is batteries but that is so expensive that it makes EV's only for the people that have money to burn. I really doubt that Krygowski does and the resale value of a 5 year old EV is near zero.
>
> Toyota has announced that they are canceling EV production and are about to start marketing a water fueled engine.

"Water engine" as in "coal to steam" ? What??
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 16:42:32 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On 1/18/2024 10:09 AM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 09:30:40 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/18/2024 9:25 AM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:08:35 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:21:49 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing
>>>>>>>> to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to
>>>>>>>> under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and
>>>>>>>> a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute
>>>>>>>> as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this
>>>>>>>> you might not believe that it is real.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom, you've so far failed to tell us about your "direct experience" with
>>>>>>> EVs. Did you forget?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My direct experience today: It was about 15 degrees Fahrenheit when I
>>>>>>> got in my car, having charged it overnight in my detached unheated
>>>>>>> garage. The predicted range was 220 miles, IIRC. That's a bit less than
>>>>>>> the EPA rated range of 239 mlles. I drove roughly 20 miles, and the
>>>>>>> predicted range at the end was just under 200 miles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your "from 330 miles to under 75 miles" is certainly not my "direct
>>>>>>> experience." So please tell us in detail about your "direct experience"
>>>>>>> with EVs in cold temperatures!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another undocumented anecdote from Krygowsky.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Be that as it may it corresponds with my 2nd experience and folks reporting
>>>>> experiences. Tom’s is click bate type of reporting, clearly the range takes
>>>>> a hit at motorway speeds and cold, for example MG5 estate (about only EV
>>>>> estate) has a + 300 mile range but at motorways drops to just sub 200 which
>>>>> for my uses would be a bit tedious as I’d need to stop and give it at least
>>>>> a 30min charge, rural wales isn’t known for its availability of chargers!
>>>>>
>>>>> But Toms range drop is frankly unbelievable, ie just because you don’t like
>>>>> Frank is colouring your views.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I simply doubt Krygowski's honesty. That doubt is based on
>>>> my observation of his always having an undocumented anecdote about a
>>>> "friend" that supports his position. Given his bossy, abrasive,
>>>> narcissistic personality I doubt he has many friends.
>>>
>>> "ie just because you don’t like Frank is colouring your views.
>>>>>
>>> Roger Merriman"
>>>
>>>
>>>> He apparently
>>>> believes that undocumented anecdotes is a valid argument.
>>>
>>> at least he doesn't believe unsubstantiated opinion is a valid argument
>>
>> I'm not arguing with you, Junior. Arguments are about persuasion, and
>> changing people's minds. Unlike you, I have no interest in trying to
>> changing anyone's mind about anything. I just enjoy triggering you
>> into expressing your hate.
>
>and yet
>
>"I don't understand all the hatred. " - floriduh dumbass
>
>Now _that_, dumbass, is Irony

Thanks for making my point, Junior.

On 1/18/2024 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich posted more tin-foil hat conspiracy
theories:
>
> Toyota has announced that they are canceling EV production and are about to start marketing a water fueled engine.

Suuure they did....

January 15 2024
https://www.asiafinancial.com/toyota-eyes-10-3-million-2024-production-target-hybrid-boost
"Toyota is targeting sales of 1.5 million battery-powered vehicles a
year globally by 2026."

January 11 2024
https://www.motor1.com/news/704185/toyota-ev-solid-state-batteries-couple-years/
"Toyota will roll out a production EV with solid state batteries "in a
couple of years," and new car inventory is at a three-year high in the US."

Jan 4, 2024
https://journalnow.com/news/local/business/development/toyotas-2023-electric-vehicle-sales-bump-bodes-well-for-triad-plant/article_7afdabda-aa70-11ee-b045-5b64c3dad508.html
"Takero Kato, president of the [Toyota] BEV Factory business unit, said
in June that the manufacturer projects producing up to 1.7 million EVs
through the unit by 2030."

September 2023
https://www.greencars.com/news/toyota-is-hard-at-work-on-4-new-ev-battery-technologies
"By 2030, the company expects that these next-generation batteries will
power half of the 3.5 million new Toyota electric cars it will sell
annually."

October 25, 2023
https://www.thebuzzevnews.com/lg-energy-solution-toyota-battery/
"LG Energy, Toyota sign long-term EV battery supply agreement
LG Energy Solution to supply Toyota with 20GWh of high-nickel NCMA
battery modules annually from 2025. "
"To fulfill the supply agreement, LG Energy Solution will invest KRW 4
trillion (approximately $3 billion) in its Michigan facility to
establish new production lines for battery cells and modules exclusively
for Toyota, with completion slated for 2025"

--
Add xx to reply

On 1/18/2024 5:10 PM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 16:42:32 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/18/2024 10:09 AM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 09:30:40 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/18/2024 9:25 AM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:08:35 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:21:49 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing
>>>>>>>>> to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to
>>>>>>>>> under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and
>>>>>>>>> a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute
>>>>>>>>> as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this
>>>>>>>>> you might not believe that it is real.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom, you've so far failed to tell us about your "direct experience" with
>>>>>>>> EVs. Did you forget?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My direct experience today: It was about 15 degrees Fahrenheit when I
>>>>>>>> got in my car, having charged it overnight in my detached unheated
>>>>>>>> garage. The predicted range was 220 miles, IIRC. That's a bit less than
>>>>>>>> the EPA rated range of 239 mlles. I drove roughly 20 miles, and the
>>>>>>>> predicted range at the end was just under 200 miles.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your "from 330 miles to under 75 miles" is certainly not my "direct
>>>>>>>> experience." So please tell us in detail about your "direct experience"
>>>>>>>> with EVs in cold temperatures!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another undocumented anecdote from Krygowsky.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Be that as it may it corresponds with my 2nd experience and folks reporting
>>>>>> experiences. Tom’s is click bate type of reporting, clearly the range takes
>>>>>> a hit at motorway speeds and cold, for example MG5 estate (about only EV
>>>>>> estate) has a + 300 mile range but at motorways drops to just sub 200 which
>>>>>> for my uses would be a bit tedious as I’d need to stop and give it at least
>>>>>> a 30min charge, rural wales isn’t known for its availability of chargers!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But Toms range drop is frankly unbelievable, ie just because you don’t like
>>>>>> Frank is colouring your views.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, I simply doubt Krygowski's honesty. That doubt is based on
>>>>> my observation of his always having an undocumented anecdote about a
>>>>> "friend" that supports his position. Given his bossy, abrasive,
>>>>> narcissistic personality I doubt he has many friends.
>>>>
>>>> "ie just because you don’t like Frank is colouring your views.
>>>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> He apparently
>>>>> believes that undocumented anecdotes is a valid argument.
>>>>
>>>> at least he doesn't believe unsubstantiated opinion is a valid argument
>>>
>>> I'm not arguing with you, Junior. Arguments are about persuasion, and
>>> changing people's minds. Unlike you, I have no interest in trying to
>>> changing anyone's mind about anything. I just enjoy triggering you
>>> into expressing your hate.
>>
>> and yet
>>
>> "I don't understand all the hatred. " - floriduh dumbass
>>
>> Now _that_, dumbass, is Irony
>
> Thanks for making my point, Junior.

That you're a willfully ignorant hypocritical dumbass? You're welcome
--
Add xx to reply

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:28:13 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 12:00:37 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>>>>>>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>>>>>>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>>>>>>> driving days.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>>>>>>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>>>>>> dramatic:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2022:
>>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last month:
>>>>>> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>>>>>> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>>>>>> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>>>>>> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>>>>>> economics.
>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>
>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing
>>> to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to
>>> under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and
>>> a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute
>>> as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this
>>> you might not believe that it is real.
>> Batteries are fine. An EV drives differently than a ICE especially in
>> city traffic.I like that. Instant torque, no jerky gearshifts, nor
>> reving motor before every gearshift, very and very
>>
>> Lou
> Lou, my Ford Taurus X is a SUV type of vehicle though smaller than most.
> It has an automatic in it. I have to be careful pressing the gas because
> it spins the wheels. Is that "instant torque" enough for you?
>
Compare it to a equivalent sized EV even diesel engines don’t win this top
trumps and it’s not just that it’s higher but it’s not a curve but flat,
hence they can get up and go off the mark so well.

Roger Merriman

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 6:08:39 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Catrike Ryder <Sol...@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:21:49 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing
>>>>> to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to
>>>>> under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and
>>>>> a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute
>>>>> as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this
>>>>> you might not believe that it is real.
>>>>
>>>> Tom, you've so far failed to tell us about your "direct experience" with
>>>> EVs. Did you forget?
>>>>
>>>> My direct experience today: It was about 15 degrees Fahrenheit when I
>>>> got in my car, having charged it overnight in my detached unheated
>>>> garage. The predicted range was 220 miles, IIRC. That's a bit less than
>>>> the EPA rated range of 239 mlles. I drove roughly 20 miles, and the
>>>> predicted range at the end was just under 200 miles.
>>>>
>>>> Your "from 330 miles to under 75 miles" is certainly not my "direct
>>>> experience." So please tell us in detail about your "direct experience"
>>>> with EVs in cold temperatures!
>>>
>>>
>>> Another undocumented anecdote from Krygowsky.
>>>
>> Be that as it may it corresponds with my 2nd experience and folks reporting
>> experiences. Tom’s is click bate type of reporting, clearly the range takes
>> a hit at motorway speeds and cold, for example MG5 estate (about only EV
>> estate) has a + 300 mile range but at motorways drops to just sub 200 which
>> for my uses would be a bit tedious as I’d need to stop and give it at least
>> a 30min charge, rural wales isn’t known for its availability of chargers!
>>
>> But Toms range drop is frankly unbelievable, ie just because you don’t like
>> Frank is colouring your views.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teslas-electric-vehicles-cold-weather/
>
> With cars going dead on the freeway, that is hardly click bait. And this
> is mostly pro-EV reporting. 2 hours to charge because it is pulling so
> much electricity to heat the battery means that charging stations are
> only charging the vehicles to 70 or 80% This means that it is NOT 150
> miles but 105 to 120 miles.at best and that is cut way the hell down
> because the battery heaters are drawing off a lot of energy.
>
But remarkably this only happens to Americans not the Nordic countries…..

> Or perhaps you can reference Krygowski's +15 instead of -15 as some sort
> of proof of whatever the hell he thinks he's trying to prove.
>
> If you recall, I said that there is a time and a place for EV's. That
> they have so few moving parts that the ONLY thing they have to replace is
> batteries but that is so expensive that it makes EV's only for the people
> that have money to burn. I really doubt that Krygowski does and the
> resale value of a 5 year old EV is near zero.
>
> Toyota has announced that they are canceling EV production and are about
> to start marketing a water fueled engine.
>

Toyota do like to look at alternatives from memory they produce hydrogen
fuel cell powered cars and so on.

Roger Merriman

On 1/18/2024 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Or perhaps you can reference Krygowski's +15 instead of -15 as some sort of proof of whatever the hell he thinks he's trying to prove.

I don't know what Tom's trying and failing to say. But I paid extra
attention today. Temperature was something like 20 degrees Fahrenheit.
My car was charged to 100%, and the range estimate was 226 miles. I
drove only about 25 miles today.

> If you recall, I said that there is a time and a place for EV's. That they have so few moving parts that the ONLY thing they have to replace is batteries but that is so expensive that it makes EV's only for the people that have money to burn. I really doubt that Krygowski does and the resale value of a 5 year old EV is near zero.

I'm not worried. This car is easily doing what I need it to do.

> Toyota has announced that they are canceling EV production and are about to start marketing a water fueled engine.

HAHAHAHAHA! Good one, Tom!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 2:16:10 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich posted more tin-foil hat conspiracy
> theories:
> >
> > Toyota has announced that they are canceling EV production and are about to start marketing a water fueled engine.
> Suuure they did....
>
> January 15 2024
> https://www.asiafinancial.com/toyota-eyes-10-3-million-2024-production-target-hybrid-boost
> "Toyota is targeting sales of 1.5 million battery-powered vehicles a
> year globally by 2026."
>
> January 11 2024
> https://www.motor1.com/news/704185/toyota-ev-solid-state-batteries-couple-years/
> "Toyota will roll out a production EV with solid state batteries "in a
> couple of years," and new car inventory is at a three-year high in the US.."
>
> Jan 4, 2024
> https://journalnow.com/news/local/business/development/toyotas-2023-electric-vehicle-sales-bump-bodes-well-for-triad-plant/article_7afdabda-aa70-11ee-b045-5b64c3dad508.html
> "Takero Kato, president of the [Toyota] BEV Factory business unit, said
> in June that the manufacturer projects producing up to 1.7 million EVs
> through the unit by 2030."
>
> September 2023
> https://www.greencars.com/news/toyota-is-hard-at-work-on-4-new-ev-battery-technologies
> "By 2030, the company expects that these next-generation batteries will
> power half of the 3.5 million new Toyota electric cars it will sell
> annually."
>
> October 25, 2023
> https://www.thebuzzevnews.com/lg-energy-solution-toyota-battery/
> "LG Energy, Toyota sign long-term EV battery supply agreement
> LG Energy Solution to supply Toyota with 20GWh of high-nickel NCMA
> battery modules annually from 2025. "
> "To fulfill the supply agreement, LG Energy Solution will invest KRW 4
> trillion (approximately $3 billion) in its Michigan facility to
> establish new production lines for battery cells and modules exclusively
> for Toyota, with completion slated for 2025"
> --
> Add xx to reply
Rather than talking about it as if you knew something, why don't you just wait and see?

On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 10:20:25 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:28:13 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 12:00:37 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > >> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > >>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
> > > > > >>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
> > > > > >>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
> > > > > >> driving days.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
> > > > > >> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
> > > > > > dramatic:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2022:
> > > > > > https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Last month:
> > > > > > https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
> > > > > > 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
> > > > > > happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
> > > > > > taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
> > > > > > economics.
> > > > > As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
> > > > > based on environmental conscience.
> > > > >
> > > > And in my case driver experience.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this you might not believe that it is real.
> > Batteries are fine. An EV drives differently than a ICE especially in city traffic.I like that. Instant torque, no jerky gearshifts, nor reving motor before every gearshift, very and very
> >
> > Lou
> Lou, my Ford Taurus X is a SUV type of vehicle though smaller than most. It has an automatic in it. I have to be careful pressing the gas because it spins the wheels. Is that "instant torque" enough for you?

Tom I suggest you testdrive an EV and report back. Torque is zero at 0 rpm with any ICE car. I’m waiting for a stoplight with my foot on the brake and the car is complete silent. Next to me a car enthusiast with a manuel (that is what car enthousiasts drive around here) with his foot on the clutch reving his engine to 2000-3000 rpm to get some torque when he lifts his foot from the clutch. If I wanted a dragrace the car enthusiast would loose from 0-50 km/hr (city traffic) That is the difference. I’m not into drag racing but the instant torque makes driving in city traffic with a lot of accelerating and decelerating extremely smooth and quiet. I like that. You don’t have to justify your car of choice for me. I don’t care.

Lou

Am Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:08:35 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:

[...]

>> Sometimes I get the impression that rec.bicylcles.tech could renamed to
>> rec.bicycles.talk.carsnguns.
>>
>> Don't know about you people, but we use our 25 years old Citroen Break
>> essentially once or twice a year only, for our vacation somewhere in
>> Europe, mostly south of France. Locally, we can easily do all of our
>> transport with bicycles. We even didn't own a car while we were raising
>> our two children, both of us working, me fulltime, she halftime.
>>
>>
>I certainly have had no cars or rather wasn’t able to drive for fair amount
>of time, which was fine, even now I don’t use the car much as well London
>has public transportation and it’s generally a royal pain by car vs bike.

Public transport is good enough to get around without a car in German
towns, too. It is even good enough to get to other towns in Germany.

Public transport has its weaknesses, the railroad has been almost
destroyed by incompetent politicians and administrators in favor of car
traffic, in Germany. But it has worked and it still works reasonably
well.

However, international connections have deteriorated and cross-border
bicycle transportation is only for young people with good nerves.

There are a lot of car sharing options for getting around, for those who
aren't able to ride a bike or don't want to. But this is now. Car
sharing wasn't available 40 years ago, wouldn't be viable for commuting
even now. Commuting is getting a lot more difficult if both parents work
and one parent (me, that is) has a fulltime job in another municipality,
on the other side of a river and there on a hill in a rural area.

The timetable often didn't work out, terminus stops were fragile and
sometimes closed. After the car and motorcycle, the bicycle was the only
option to avoid spending around two hours commuting per day.

After the car and motorcycle, the bicycle was the only reliable option
to avoid spending two hours or sometimes even longer, for commuting
every work day. But it took more than one attempt and years, to build up
enough strength and versality to be able to take it easy.

>
>I keep the car for longer distances which is generally the better choice,
>plus transportation of the MTB.

Alas, we so far haven't found a viable way to do get to our vacation
destination, without a car we own. Car sharing doesn't cover it,
renting a car that is big enough to carry our bikes inside is more
expensive than just using our old car for getting to France and back
again, once a year.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:08:35 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> Sometimes I get the impression that rec.bicylcles.tech could renamed to
>>> rec.bicycles.talk.carsnguns.
>>>
>>> Don't know about you people, but we use our 25 years old Citroen Break
>>> essentially once or twice a year only, for our vacation somewhere in
>>> Europe, mostly south of France. Locally, we can easily do all of our
>>> transport with bicycles. We even didn't own a car while we were raising
>>> our two children, both of us working, me fulltime, she halftime.
>>>
>>>
>> I certainly have had no cars or rather wasn’t able to drive for fair amount
>> of time, which was fine, even now I don’t use the car much as well London
>> has public transportation and it’s generally a royal pain by car vs bike.
>
> Public transport is good enough to get around without a car in German
> towns, too. It is even good enough to get to other towns in Germany.
>
> Public transport has its weaknesses, the railroad has been almost
> destroyed by incompetent politicians and administrators in favor of car
> traffic, in Germany. But it has worked and it still works reasonably
> well.
>
> However, international connections have deteriorated and cross-border
> bicycle transportation is only for young people with good nerves.

One of the big train companies now has extremely awkward bike carrying
space, ie using it with luggage etc as you’d expect on a long distance
train as I did before it’s really convenient and rather suspect it’s
intended so.
>
> There are a lot of car sharing options for getting around, for those who
> aren't able to ride a bike or don't want to. But this is now. Car
> sharing wasn't available 40 years ago, wouldn't be viable for commuting
> even now. Commuting is getting a lot more difficult if both parents work
> and one parent (me, that is) has a fulltime job in another municipality,
> on the other side of a river and there on a hill in a rural area.

I never found when I looked that car sharing etc looks appealing or
workable for me at least!
>
> The timetable often didn't work out, terminus stops were fragile and
> sometimes closed. After the car and motorcycle, the bicycle was the only
> option to avoid spending around two hours commuting per day.
>
> After the car and motorcycle, the bicycle was the only reliable option
> to avoid spending two hours or sometimes even longer, for commuting
> every work day. But it took more than one attempt and years, to build up
> enough strength and versality to be able to take it easy.
>
>>
>> I keep the car for longer distances which is generally the better choice,
>> plus transportation of the MTB.
>
> Alas, we so far haven't found a viable way to do get to our vacation
> destination, without a car we own. Car sharing doesn't cover it,
> renting a car that is big enough to carry our bikes inside is more
> expensive than just using our old car for getting to France and back
> again, once a year.
>
>
I go down to rural wales, reasonably frequently and the cost and time,
doesn’t make it appealing plus the trains reluctant to take bikes.

Roger Merriman

Am 19.01.2024 um 11:03 schrieb Roger Merriman:
> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:08:35 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>
>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> Sometimes I get the impression that rec.bicylcles.tech could
>>>> renamed to rec.bicycles.talk.carsnguns.
>>>>
>>>> Don't know about you people, but we use our 25 years old
>>>> Citroen Break essentially once or twice a year only, for our
>>>> vacation somewhere in Europe, mostly south of France.
>>>> Locally, we can easily do all of our transport with bicycles.
>>>> We even didn't own a car while we were raising our two
>>>> children, both of us working, me fulltime, she halftime.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I certainly have had no cars or rather wasn’t able to drive for
>>> fair amount of time, which was fine, even now I don’t use the
>>> car much as well London has public transportation and it’s
>>> generally a royal pain by car vs bike.
>>
>> Public transport is good enough to get around without a car in
>> German towns, too. It is even good enough to get to other towns in
>> Germany.
>>
>> Public transport has its weaknesses, the railroad has been almost
>> destroyed by incompetent politicians and administrators in favor
>> of car traffic, in Germany.
In all OECD countries, the 1950's to 1980's saw a massive move from rail
to road, both in local transport (bus) and in freight (truck). This led
to lots of surplus infrastructure (branch lines, freight switching
yards) being closed in an effort to minimize losses.

>> But it has worked and it still works reasonably well.
In Germany, the 1990's saw a re-generation of subsidized public
transport by replacing general "federal railway losses" with a tender
process subsidizing specific service levels on specific railway lines
(for which private rail companies could compete against the federal
railway). In most German states, this tender process has caused massive
service expansions to fixed line standards (minimum standard 0.5 trains
per hour) and fixed timetabling.

>> However, international connections have deteriorated.

Running services by state-organized tenders tends to lose sight of
cross-state and international connections.
"Local international" train services (local train lines with end points
in France) in our area have actually expanded a lot in line with
re-generation of railway lines.

>> cross-border bicycle transportation is only for young people with
>> good nerves

High-speed train services in Germany traditionally refused to take
bicycles along at all (only recently enforced bicycle carrying by new EU
regulations), so replacing traditional rail services by high-speed
services generally made bicycle tourism challenging, even within
Germany. International high-speed services are even worse for carrying
bicycles, so yes there is a lot of "opportunity for improvement".

>> There are a lot of car sharing options for getting around, for
>> those who aren't able to ride a bike or don't want to. But this
>> is now. Car sharing wasn't available 40 years ago, wouldn't be
>> viable for commuting even now. Commuting is getting a lot more
>> difficult if both parents work and one parent (me, that is) has a
>> fulltime job in another municipality, on the other side of a river
>> and there on a hill in a rural area.
>
> I never found when I looked that car sharing etc looks appealing or
> workable for me at least!

In cities above 100k people, car sharing in Germany has been very usable
for occasional car users since approx. 2005. Regularly driving 1 mile
to pick up the kids at kindergarden/school was the one use case that did
not work for my wife and me, which forced us to buy a car once my son
changed to a private primary school and could not walk home alone
regularly any more.

Rolf

On 1/18/2024 7:54 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 6:08:39 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Catrike Ryder <Sol...@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:21:49 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing
>>>>>> to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to
>>>>>> under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and
>>>>>> a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute
>>>>>> as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this
>>>>>> you might not believe that it is real.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom, you've so far failed to tell us about your "direct experience" with
>>>>> EVs. Did you forget?
>>>>>
>>>>> My direct experience today: It was about 15 degrees Fahrenheit when I
>>>>> got in my car, having charged it overnight in my detached unheated
>>>>> garage. The predicted range was 220 miles, IIRC. That's a bit less than
>>>>> the EPA rated range of 239 mlles. I drove roughly 20 miles, and the
>>>>> predicted range at the end was just under 200 miles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your "from 330 miles to under 75 miles" is certainly not my "direct
>>>>> experience." So please tell us in detail about your "direct experience"
>>>>> with EVs in cold temperatures!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Another undocumented anecdote from Krygowsky.
>>>>
>>> Be that as it may it corresponds with my 2nd experience and folks reporting
>>> experiences. Tom’s is click bate type of reporting, clearly the range takes
>>> a hit at motorway speeds and cold, for example MG5 estate (about only EV
>>> estate) has a + 300 mile range but at motorways drops to just sub 200 which
>>> for my uses would be a bit tedious as I’d need to stop and give it at least
>>> a 30min charge, rural wales isn’t known for its availability of chargers!
>>>
>>> But Toms range drop is frankly unbelievable, ie just because you don’t like
>>> Frank is colouring your views.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teslas-electric-vehicles-cold-weather/
>>
>> With cars going dead on the freeway, that is hardly click bait. And this
>> is mostly pro-EV reporting. 2 hours to charge because it is pulling so
>> much electricity to heat the battery means that charging stations are
>> only charging the vehicles to 70 or 80% This means that it is NOT 150
>> miles but 105 to 120 miles.at best and that is cut way the hell down
>> because the battery heaters are drawing off a lot of energy.
>>
> But remarkably this only happens to Americans not the Nordic countries…..

It doesn't happen to americans any more than it happens anywhere else in
the world. As usual, tom is full of shit.

>
>> Or perhaps you can reference Krygowski's +15 instead of -15 as some sort
>> of proof of whatever the hell he thinks he's trying to prove.
>>
>> If you recall, I said that there is a time and a place for EV's. That
>> they have so few moving parts that the ONLY thing they have to replace is
>> batteries but that is so expensive that it makes EV's only for the people
>> that have money to burn. I really doubt that Krygowski does and the
>> resale value of a 5 year old EV is near zero.
>>
>> Toyota has announced that they are canceling EV production and are about
>> to start marketing a water fueled engine.
>>
>
> Toyota do like to look at alternatives from memory they produce hydrogen
> fuel cell powered cars and so on.

They aren't ceasing EV production at all, in fact they're increasing it.
Refer to the links in my response to tom.

>
> Roger Merriman
>

--
Add xx to reply

On 1/18/2024 9:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> Or perhaps you can reference Krygowski's +15 instead of -15 as some
>> sort of proof of whatever the hell he thinks he's trying to prove.
>
> I don't know what Tom's trying and failing to say. But I paid extra
> attention today. Temperature was something like 20 degrees Fahrenheit.
> My car was charged to 100%, and the range estimate was 226 miles. I
> drove only about 25 miles today.
>
>> If you recall, I said that there is a time and a place for EV's. That
>> they have so few moving parts that the ONLY thing they have to replace
>> is batteries but that is so expensive that it makes EV's only for the
>> people that have money to burn. I really doubt that Krygowski does and
>> the resale value of a 5 year old EV is near zero.

I just checked the KBB trade-in value of a 5 year old standard range
Tesla model 3, base package, good condition, 100K miles - Average trade
is in listed as $14768 from an original MSRP of $36,200

Compare that to toms favorite, the taurus X. the Taurus X was
discontinued in 2010, but the Explorer was its replacement, built on the
same platform
https://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/31/2011-ford-explorer-reportedly-to-be-built-in-chicago-on-taurus-x/

Same criteria: base package, good condition, 100K miles - Average trade
in is $11710 from a base price of $33,695

All pricing data from KBB.com

You should be pretty confident that the resale of yours will be no where
near 0.

>
> I'm not worried. This car is easily doing what I need it to do.
>
>> Toyota has announced that they are canceling EV production and are
>> about to start marketing a water fueled engine.
>
> HAHAHAHAHA! Good one, Tom!
>

--
Add xx to reply

On 1/19/2024 3:38 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> Tom I suggest you testdrive an EV and report back. Torque is zero at 0 rpm with any ICE car. I’m waiting for a stoplight with my foot on the brake and the car is complete silent. Next to me a car enthusiast with a manuel (that is what car enthousiasts drive around here) with his foot on the clutch reving his engine to 2000-3000 rpm to get some torque when he lifts his foot from the clutch. If I wanted a dragrace the car enthusiast would loose from 0-50 km/hr (city traffic) That is the difference. I’m not into drag racing but the instant torque makes driving in city traffic with a lot of accelerating and decelerating extremely smooth and quiet. I like that. You don’t have to justify your car of choice for me. I don’t care.

+1. As I may have said before, the acceleration capability of my EV
makes merging onto a freeway actual fun. I think it's a bit safer as
well, since I can match traffic speed immediately. Mine is an econo-car,
but it accelerates faster than any car I've ever owned.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/18/2024 7:21 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:28:13 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 12:00:37 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:49:02 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>>>>>>>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>>>>>>>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>>>>>>>> driving days.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>>>>>>>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>>>>>>> dramatic:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2022:
>>>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Last month:
>>>>>>> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>>>>>>> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>>>>>>> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>>>>>>> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>>>>>>> economics.
>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>
>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>> I'm not clear what you mean. Have you experienced EV batteries refusing
>>>> to charge in sub zero temperatures? Having range drop from 330 miles to
>>>> under 75 miles because of temperature effects on batteries is real and
>>>> a problem. Most especially with EV's on a freeway with a longer commute
>>>> as they can be in the US. Unless you've had direct experience with this
>>>> you might not believe that it is real.
>>> Batteries are fine. An EV drives differently than a ICE especially in
>>> city traffic.I like that. Instant torque, no jerky gearshifts, nor
>>> reving motor before every gearshift, very and very
>>>
>>> Lou
>> Lou, my Ford Taurus X is a SUV type of vehicle though smaller than most.
>> It has an automatic in it. I have to be careful pressing the gas because
>> it spins the wheels. Is that "instant torque" enough for you?
>>
> Compare it to a equivalent sized EV even diesel engines don’t win this top
> trumps and it’s not just that it’s higher but it’s not a curve but flat,
> hence they can get up and go off the mark so well.
>
> Roger Merriman

There's also the issue of throttle response. Very few ICE cars I've
driven compare to the response of the battery powered vehicles I've
driven. Can my father in-laws 2015 Z28 light up the rear wheels from a
dead stop? sure, but the throttle response isn't near as quick, smooth,
and predictable, as the chevy volt I test drove or my friends Tesla he
let me drive one afternoon. I definitely see the appeal.
--
Add xx to reply