On 2/12/2022 1:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 11:10:39 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/12/2022 10:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/12/2022 1:35 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 20:46:19 -0600, AMuzi
>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/11/2022 8:37 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 7:35:23 PM UTC-6, AMuzi
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2/11/2022 7:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 15:38:47 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2022 10:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 20:11:51 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2022 7:04 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 10:44:34 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2022 1:43 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It might be that the Air Gun was the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effective weapon that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expedition carried as while I can't find a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specific statement that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Girandoni was rifled...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was rifled.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> See https://youtu.be/2dZLeEUE940?t=189
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Very innovative. The first rifled
>>>>>>>>>>>> long guns in the U.S.
>>>>>>>>>>>> army date to about 1800 and in the British Army
>>>>>>>>>>>> about the same period.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I defer to you on official War Department
>>>>>>>>>>> procurement, since
>>>>>>>>>>> I have no idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But I do know something about our Founding. Paul
>>>>>>>>>>> Revere and
>>>>>>>>>>> William Dawes left Boston on horseback at night*
>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>> some 700-odd of the British garrison had marched
>>>>>>>>>>> out at
>>>>>>>>>>> midnight* for Lexington where the most accurate _long
>>>>>>>>>>> rifles_ on the continent were manufactured. They
>>>>>>>>>>> took a
>>>>>>>>>>> circuitous route but did arrive at Lexington in
>>>>>>>>>>> time and the
>>>>>>>>>>> results, including the forced withdrawal at
>>>>>>>>>>> Concord, were
>>>>>>>>>>> our 'shot heard round the world'. A result in our
>>>>>>>>>>> favor was
>>>>>>>>>>> critically due to the superior range and accuracy
>>>>>>>>>>> of long
>>>>>>>>>>> rifles against smooth bore British issue muskets.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 18 April, 1775.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> * 1775! No streetlights, no headlamps, no paved
>>>>>>>>>>> rural roads.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I've read the stories and yes, British troops
>>>>>>>>>> were marching to
>>>>>>>>>> seize stores of gun powder and some arms at
>>>>>>>>>> Lexington, and yes, I've
>>>>>>>>>> read stories about the Minute Men snipping from
>>>>>>>>>> behind fences but I
>>>>>>>>>> doubt greatly whether many rifles were used,
>>>>>>>>>> although admittedly this
>>>>>>>>>> seems to be a constant theme in U.S. history.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But, where did these "rifles" come from? The average
>>>>>>>>>> farmer had no
>>>>>>>>>> requirement for an expensive rifled gun, a smooth
>>>>>>>>>> bore was far cheaper
>>>>>>>>>> and far more versatile for use on the farm.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Additionally there were no organized munitions
>>>>>>>>>> makers in the U.S. and
>>>>>>>>>> rifles were made one at a time, and were extremely
>>>>>>>>>> expensive. Kenneth
>>>>>>>>>> Roberts in the historical novel Arundel, based on
>>>>>>>>>> actual diaries of
>>>>>>>>>> the 1775 Quebec Campaign, mentions used rifles with
>>>>>>>>>> accoutrements
>>>>>>>>>> exchanged for 12-15 English pounds. A smooth bore at
>>>>>>>>>> the time might be
>>>>>>>>>> 2 pounds and 4 shillings. To get an idea of how much
>>>>>>>>>> this was there is
>>>>>>>>>> a record of a John Moll paying 45 pounds for a
>>>>>>>>>> 60’ X 230’ building lot
>>>>>>>>>> in Allentown in 1772. And, William Carlin, a tailor
>>>>>>>>>> in colonial
>>>>>>>>>> Alexandria who made clothes for field hands as well
>>>>>>>>>> as the planter
>>>>>>>>>> elite, charged £3-5 for an ordinary wool suit.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Some of the greatest support furnished by the French
>>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>>> revolutionists was in the form of muskets and gun
>>>>>>>>>> power. In the
>>>>>>>>>> Battles of Saratoga on September 19 and October 7,
>>>>>>>>>> 1777, it is
>>>>>>>>>> estimated that as many as nine out of 10 American
>>>>>>>>>> soldiers carried
>>>>>>>>>> French arms, and were completely dependent on French
>>>>>>>>>> gunpowder.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was engaged in a discussion on currency debasement
>>>>>>>>> policy
>>>>>>>>> (popularly called 'inflation') and remembered your post
>>>>>>>>> above so I checked the NPV of 14 Sterling in 1775.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Current value 2400 pounds or US$3200. For reference,
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> average popular modern rifle runs somewhere around
>>>>>>>>> $2000.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So you make a good point that premium equipment of
>>>>>>>>> the era
>>>>>>>>> was pricey. No wonder Louis sent muskets!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Typical selections:
>>>>>>>>> https://blog.gunassociation.org/best-rifles/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/guns/rifles/centerfire/2011/11/20-best-semi-automatic-rifles-big-game-hunting/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> where $3000 rifles are at the far end of 'popular',
>>>>>>>>> most are
>>>>>>>>> below $2000, and the range is $800 to $7000
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was "into" gun smithing for a while and actually
>>>>>>>> gave some thought
>>>>>>>> to doing it as a business after I left the Military,
>>>>>>>> and "back then",
>>>>>>>> say the 1960's a good "deer rifle" with iron sights
>>>>>>>> was in the $200
>>>>>>>> range. And, disregarding my Military pay and
>>>>>>>> allowances, I was making
>>>>>>>> $10 a day part time in a gunsmith shop (:-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Disregarding "Home Defense" mentioned in your
>>>>>>>> reference above, my
>>>>>>>> grandfather used a Winchester lever action 38-55 as a
>>>>>>>> "deer rifle" and
>>>>>>>> killed his one deer a year under his license (and
>>>>>>>> sometimes two if
>>>>>>>> the Game Warden was down at the other end of the
>>>>>>>> state) and had one
>>>>>>>> packet of, I think it was 20 rounds, that he'd been
>>>>>>>> using for
>>>>>>>> something like 10 years.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which might say something about AR-15's, and other
>>>>>>>> shoot em up,
>>>>>>>> bang,bang, guns as hunting rifles (:-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wrong.
>>>>>>> We've been over this here on RBT at least a dozen times
>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>> the years. My AR-15 repeats at the exact same speed as my
>>>>>>> .38 Police Special revolver. Both are faster than
>>>>>>> girlfriend's inherited .30 Winchester vintage lever,
>>>>>>> but not
>>>>>>> by all that much. None of those are magic lead-spraying
>>>>>>> pew-pew-pew television weapons.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your AR-15 has a 20 or 30 shot magazine. Most likely
>>>>>> .223 Remington or NATO ammunition. Your Police Special
>>>>>> has 6 shots. The 5 shot S&W only became common fairly
>>>>>> recently. The lever action likely has a 7 or 8 or 9
>>>>>> round tube fed ammo holding system. So roughly the
>>>>>> AR-15 has 5 times the revolver capacity and 4 times the
>>>>>> rifle capacity. You can easily fire two shots per
>>>>>> second. Bang-bang. Thats one second. Maybe you can
>>>>>> even fire three rounds per second.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the June 12, 2016 Orlando Florida mass shooting at a
>>>>>> GAY nightclub, a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle (it
>>>>>> is an AR-15) and a Glock 17 semi auto pistol were used.
>>>>>> 49 people killed, 53 wounded.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "In less than five minutes, Mateen had fired
>>>>>> approximately 200 rounds, pausing only to reload." That
>>>>>> works out to a little more than 40 rounds per minute.
>>>>>> One and a half seconds per shot. Not too fast I guess.
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_MCX
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock#Glock_17
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It wasn't until October 2017, a whole year and 3 months
>>>>>> later, that Orlando lost its crown as the biggest mass
>>>>>> shooting in US history. That is when the Las Vegas
>>>>>> concert killer used the bump stock device on his AR-15
>>>>>> rifles to kill 60 and wound 411.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting#Weaponry
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Paddock was found to have fired a total of 1,058 rounds
>>>>>> from fifteen of the firearms: 1,049 from twelve
>>>>>> AR-15-style rifles, eight from two AR-10-style rifles,
>>>>>> and the round used to kill himself from the Smith &
>>>>>> Wesson revolver."
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> meh.
>>>>>
>>>>> And every day (more than usual this week) there are multiple
>>>>> stabbings and sword/machete murders.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.wate.com/news/sword-attack-in-indiana-leaves-2-dead-1-wounded/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.expressnews.com/news/local/article/Sword-wielding-man-shot-by-New-Braunfels-police-16836088.php
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/police-find-man-decapitating-girlfriend-with-machete-in-philadelphia/ar-AATJCVg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/man-accused-of-attacking-lakewood-store-employee-with-machete-police-say/ar-AATJXiV
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.thedailybeast.com/karla-jackelin-morales-allegedly-lured-jose-villanueva-to-ms-13-machete-death-and-skipped-bail
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I skip the stabbings/slashings with knives/razors which are
>>>>> frequent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Turns out that by not prosecuting/detaining criminals,
>>>>> mayhem results. Weapon of choice may vary but the results
>>>>> are fungibly similar.
>>>>
>>>> But when you say "GUN" Ohoooo it is so scary.
>>>>
>>>> As has been discussed before, the FBI records show that in
>>>> 2015 "long
>>>> guns" killed 463 victims and hands and feet killed 651.
>>>>
>>>> But a news article announcing "Oh Yes, he was kicked to
>>>> death" is sort
>>>> of, well sort of every day, and far less thrilling that
>>>> "He was shot,
>>>> 17 times!"
>>>
>>> As we've mentioned before: Data on U.S. gun crime generally
>>> shows a small number of homicides by "long gun" or "rifle."
>>> But it shows a large number by unspecified "firearm," a
>>> separate category from "handgun." I assume that means that
>>> the type of gun was undetermined. And I think it's
>>> reasonable to say a large portion of those undetermined
>>> cases are in fact ARs.
>>>
>>> And regarding hands and feet vs. semi-automatic, easily
>>> customized, large magazine assault-style rifles: Can we
>>> again consider advantages and disadvantages? I shouldn't
>>> have to point out that hands and feet have countless
>>> practical uses, and that life without them would be
>>> difficult. (The same is true of knives, BTW.)
>>>
>>> What are the advantages and disadvantages of AR-style
>>> weaponry? Well, a disadvantage is that those guns are the
>>> weapon of choice for crackpots choosing to blow away bunches
>>> of kids in a schoolroom, a bunch of people in a night club,
>>> a bunch of people at a music concert, etc. Also, their
>>> widespread presence makes the job of a cop much more
>>> difficult, since it's easy for them to be out-gunned.
>>> (That's something almost no other developed countries have
>>> to worry about).
>>>
>>> The AR advantages are so slight that most truly civilized
>>> countries do perfectly well with roughly zero of them in
>>> circulation. In fact, those other countries do far better.
>>>
>>> What _are_ the advantages of AR-style guns? "Dude, they're
>>> cool! And when I play with mine or shoot at those silhouette
>>> targets, I can pretend I'm a really tough commando defending
>>> my home against ... um, them other people. Even though I'm
>>> really a feeble 77 year old pot bellied guy with memory
>>> problems."
>>>
>>> "Really cool" doesn't outweigh "27 schoolkids murdered" in
>>> my book.
>>>
>> As was noted by Mr Bach above, every problem is not a
>> crisis. You're not innumerate. There are more than 20
>> million AR-15 in the US of A, the greater bulk of which just
>> passed another uneventful day, oiled and cased.
>
> Exactly how would a gun homicide have a type of gun "indeterminate"? While there are rifles that shoot some handgun calibers the velocity of the bullet is enough different to determine whether it was a rifle or a handgun. IE Henry lever action rifles are made that shoot .357 but the velocity and rifling are substantially different. If you can recover a bullet you can almost always identify the brand of gun it was fired from. Sometimes even the year of manufacture.
>

As a longtime reader of daily crime reports, there's no
mystery here.

Consider that before the prevalence of 9mm, the #1 most
frequently lethal round was .22LR. There's no way to
determine which format was employed, both are popular.

Back to 9mm:
https://www.barrettrifles.com/9mm-rifles

And just as the favorite mob weapon at one time was the
Thompson .45, there are applications for both pistol and
rifle/carbine in other calibers.

Add in through wounds, fragments unrecovered, and you have
an 'indeterminate' area.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971