On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 11:29:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/12/2022 1:35 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 20:46:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/11/2022 8:37 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 7:35:23 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 2/11/2022 7:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 15:38:47 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/10/2022 10:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 20:11:51 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2022 7:04 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 10:44:34 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2022 1:43 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It might be that the Air Gun was the most effective weapon that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> expedition carried as while I can't find a specific statement that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Girandoni was rifled...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It was rifled.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> See https://youtu.be/2dZLeEUE940?t=189
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Very innovative. The first rifled long guns in the U.S.
>>>>>>>>>> army date to about 1800 and in the British Army about the same period.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I defer to you on official War Department procurement, since
>>>>>>>>> I have no idea.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But I do know something about our Founding. Paul Revere and
>>>>>>>>> William Dawes left Boston on horseback at night* because
>>>>>>>>> some 700-odd of the British garrison had marched out at
>>>>>>>>> midnight* for Lexington where the most accurate _long
>>>>>>>>> rifles_ on the continent were manufactured. They took a
>>>>>>>>> circuitous route but did arrive at Lexington in time and the
>>>>>>>>> results, including the forced withdrawal at Concord, were
>>>>>>>>> our 'shot heard round the world'. A result in our favor was
>>>>>>>>> critically due to the superior range and accuracy of long
>>>>>>>>> rifles against smooth bore British issue muskets.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 18 April, 1775.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * 1775! No streetlights, no headlamps, no paved rural roads.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I've read the stories and yes, British troops were marching to
>>>>>>>> seize stores of gun powder and some arms at Lexington, and yes, I've
>>>>>>>> read stories about the Minute Men snipping from behind fences but I
>>>>>>>> doubt greatly whether many rifles were used, although admittedly this
>>>>>>>> seems to be a constant theme in U.S. history.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, where did these "rifles" come from? The average farmer had no
>>>>>>>> requirement for an expensive rifled gun, a smooth bore was far cheaper
>>>>>>>> and far more versatile for use on the farm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Additionally there were no organized munitions makers in the U.S. and
>>>>>>>> rifles were made one at a time, and were extremely expensive. Kenneth
>>>>>>>> Roberts in the historical novel Arundel, based on actual diaries of
>>>>>>>> the 1775 Quebec Campaign, mentions used rifles with accoutrements
>>>>>>>> exchanged for 12-15 English pounds. A smooth bore at the time might be
>>>>>>>> 2 pounds and 4 shillings. To get an idea of how much this was there is
>>>>>>>> a record of a John Moll paying 45 pounds for a 60’ X 230’ building lot
>>>>>>>> in Allentown in 1772. And, William Carlin, a tailor in colonial
>>>>>>>> Alexandria who made clothes for field hands as well as the planter
>>>>>>>> elite, charged £3-5 for an ordinary wool suit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some of the greatest support furnished by the French to the
>>>>>>>> revolutionists was in the form of muskets and gun power. In the
>>>>>>>> Battles of Saratoga on September 19 and October 7, 1777, it is
>>>>>>>> estimated that as many as nine out of 10 American soldiers carried
>>>>>>>> French arms, and were completely dependent on French gunpowder.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was engaged in a discussion on currency debasement policy
>>>>>>> (popularly called 'inflation') and remembered your post
>>>>>>> above so I checked the NPV of 14 Sterling in 1775.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Current value 2400 pounds or US$3200. For reference, your
>>>>>>> average popular modern rifle runs somewhere around $2000.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you make a good point that premium equipment of the era
>>>>>>> was pricey. No wonder Louis sent muskets!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Typical selections:
>>>>>>> https://blog.gunassociation.org/best-rifles/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/guns/rifles/centerfire/2011/11/20-best-semi-automatic-rifles-big-game-hunting/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> where $3000 rifles are at the far end of 'popular', most are
>>>>>>> below $2000, and the range is $800 to $7000
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was "into" gun smithing for a while and actually gave some thought
>>>>>> to doing it as a business after I left the Military, and "back then",
>>>>>> say the 1960's a good "deer rifle" with iron sights was in the $200
>>>>>> range. And, disregarding my Military pay and allowances, I was making
>>>>>> $10 a day part time in a gunsmith shop (:-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Disregarding "Home Defense" mentioned in your reference above, my
>>>>>> grandfather used a Winchester lever action 38-55 as a "deer rifle" and
>>>>>> killed his one deer a year under his license (and sometimes two if
>>>>>> the Game Warden was down at the other end of the state) and had one
>>>>>> packet of, I think it was 20 rounds, that he'd been using for
>>>>>> something like 10 years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which might say something about AR-15's, and other shoot em up,
>>>>>> bang,bang, guns as hunting rifles (:-)
>>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong.
>>>>> We've been over this here on RBT at least a dozen times over
>>>>> the years. My AR-15 repeats at the exact same speed as my
>>>>> .38 Police Special revolver. Both are faster than
>>>>> girlfriend's inherited .30 Winchester vintage lever, but not
>>>>> by all that much. None of those are magic lead-spraying
>>>>> pew-pew-pew television weapons.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>
>>>> Your AR-15 has a 20 or 30 shot magazine. Most likely .223 Remington or NATO ammunition. Your Police Special has 6 shots. The 5 shot S&W only became common fairly recently. The lever action likely has a 7 or 8 or 9 round tube fed ammo holding system. So roughly the AR-15 has 5 times the revolver capacity and 4 times the rifle capacity. You can easily fire two shots per second. Bang-bang. Thats one second. Maybe you can even fire three rounds per second.
>>>>
>>>> At the June 12, 2016 Orlando Florida mass shooting at a GAY nightclub, a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle (it is an AR-15) and a Glock 17 semi auto pistol were used. 49 people killed, 53 wounded.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>>> "In less than five minutes, Mateen had fired approximately 200 rounds, pausing only to reload." That works out to a little more than 40 rounds per minute. One and a half seconds per shot. Not too fast I guess.
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_MCX
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock#Glock_17
>>>>
>>>> It wasn't until October 2017, a whole year and 3 months later, that Orlando lost its crown as the biggest mass shooting in US history. That is when the Las Vegas concert killer used the bump stock device on his AR-15 rifles to kill 60 and wound 411.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting#Weaponry
>>>> "Paddock was found to have fired a total of 1,058 rounds from fifteen of the firearms: 1,049 from twelve AR-15-style rifles, eight from two AR-10-style rifles, and the round used to kill himself from the Smith & Wesson revolver."
>>>>
>>>
>>> meh.
>>>
>>> And every day (more than usual this week) there are multiple
>>> stabbings and sword/machete murders.
>>>
>>> https://www.wate.com/news/sword-attack-in-indiana-leaves-2-dead-1-wounded/
>>>
>>> https://www.expressnews.com/news/local/article/Sword-wielding-man-shot-by-New-Braunfels-police-16836088.php
>>>
>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/police-find-man-decapitating-girlfriend-with-machete-in-philadelphia/ar-AATJCVg
>>>
>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/man-accused-of-attacking-lakewood-store-employee-with-machete-police-say/ar-AATJXiV
>>>
>>> https://www.thedailybeast.com/karla-jackelin-morales-allegedly-lured-jose-villanueva-to-ms-13-machete-death-and-skipped-bail
>>>
>>> I skip the stabbings/slashings with knives/razors which are
>>> frequent.
>>>
>>> Turns out that by not prosecuting/detaining criminals,
>>> mayhem results. Weapon of choice may vary but the results
>>> are fungibly similar.
>>
>> But when you say "GUN" Ohoooo it is so scary.
>>
>> As has been discussed before, the FBI records show that in 2015 "long
>> guns" killed 463 victims and hands and feet killed 651.
>>
>> But a news article announcing "Oh Yes, he was kicked to death" is sort
>> of, well sort of every day, and far less thrilling that "He was shot,
>> 17 times!"
>
>As we've mentioned before: Data on U.S. gun crime generally shows a
>small number of homicides by "long gun" or "rifle." But it shows a large
>number by unspecified "firearm," a separate category from "handgun." I
>assume that means that the type of gun was undetermined. And I think
>it's reasonable to say a large portion of those undetermined cases are
>in fact ARs.

Is it reasonable? Or simply another example of "gun terror"?

Looking at the chart
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls
we see that of the total 10,258 cases of a firearm used in a homicide
some 6,368, or 62% were hand guns and some 3,281 or 31% were stated to
be "not noted".

Is it reasonable to argue that every one of these "not noted" firearms
was a pistol? Or simply a fantasy to justify a pre-conceived notion.

>And regarding hands and feet vs. semi-automatic, easily customized,
>large magazine assault-style rifles: Can we again consider advantages
>and disadvantages? I shouldn't have to point out that hands and feet
>have countless practical uses, and that life without them would be
>difficult. (The same is true of knives, BTW.)

So you would condone beating someone to death with hands and feet
because they have practical uses? And knives? O.K. I guess....

BUT WAIT! In 1994, about 800,000 Tutsi people were slaughtered in
Rwanda by ethnic Hutu extremists, largely with clubs and knives. Then
the Largely Tutsi Rwandan Patriotic Front (RPF) seized power and
returned the favor, killing thousands of Hutu's. Again largely with
knives and clubs.

..>
>What are the advantages and disadvantages of AR-style weaponry? Well, a
>disadvantage is that those guns are the weapon of choice for crackpots
>choosing to blow away bunches of kids in a schoolroom, a bunch of people
>in a night club, a bunch of people at a music concert, etc. Also, their
>widespread presence makes the job of a cop much more difficult, since
>it's easy for them to be out-gunned. (That's something almost no other
>developed countries have to worry about).

Well, one might ask, what are the advantages and disadvantages of, oh
say, plastic bicycles (selling for upwards of $10,000)? Or even what
is the advantage and disadvantage of a bicycle as it seems that
something less then 9% of U.S. families do not own a car and other
sources state that in 2019 some 267,894,860 autos were registered in
the U.S.

Very much an affection one might say - "Oh! Look! Everybody! I'm
riding to work today on my bicycle! But of course, that is only on
days when it isn't raining or too cold to ride, when we take the BMW.

Errr Frank, the two most popular "long guns" used by U.S. police
forces are the 870 Remington shotgun and the Colt M4 Carbine.
...
>The AR advantages are so slight that most truly civilized countries do
>perfectly well with roughly zero of them in circulation. In fact, those
>other countries do far better.
>
>What _are_ the advantages of AR-style guns? "Dude, they're cool! And
>when I play with mine or shoot at those silhouette targets, I can
>pretend I'm a really tough commando defending my home against ... um,
>them other people. Even though I'm really a feeble 77 year old pot
>bellied guy with memory problems."
>
>"Really cool" doesn't outweigh "27 schoolkids murdered" in my book.

And just think! some 800+- die every year on bicycles, year after year
after year. Nearly 10,000 since 2007, such carnage MUST be stopped!
--
Cheers,

John B.