On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 14:14:44 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/12/2022 1:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 11:10:39 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 2/12/2022 10:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/12/2022 1:35 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 20:46:19 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/11/2022 8:37 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 7:35:23 PM UTC-6, AMuzi
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/11/2022 7:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 15:38:47 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2022 10:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 20:11:51 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2022 7:04 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 10:44:34 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2022 1:43 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It might be that the Air Gun was the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effective weapon that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expedition carried as while I can't find a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specific statement that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Girandoni was rifled...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was rifled.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> See https://youtu.be/2dZLeEUE940?t=189
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Very innovative. The first rifled
>>>>>>>>>>>>> long guns in the U.S.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> army date to about 1800 and in the British Army
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the same period.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I defer to you on official War Department
>>>>>>>>>>>> procurement, since
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have no idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But I do know something about our Founding. Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>> Revere and
>>>>>>>>>>>> William Dawes left Boston on horseback at night*
>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>> some 700-odd of the British garrison had marched
>>>>>>>>>>>> out at
>>>>>>>>>>>> midnight* for Lexington where the most accurate _long
>>>>>>>>>>>> rifles_ on the continent were manufactured. They
>>>>>>>>>>>> took a
>>>>>>>>>>>> circuitous route but did arrive at Lexington in
>>>>>>>>>>>> time and the
>>>>>>>>>>>> results, including the forced withdrawal at
>>>>>>>>>>>> Concord, were
>>>>>>>>>>>> our 'shot heard round the world'. A result in our
>>>>>>>>>>>> favor was
>>>>>>>>>>>> critically due to the superior range and accuracy
>>>>>>>>>>>> of long
>>>>>>>>>>>> rifles against smooth bore British issue muskets.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 18 April, 1775.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 1775! No streetlights, no headlamps, no paved
>>>>>>>>>>>> rural roads.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I've read the stories and yes, British troops
>>>>>>>>>>> were marching to
>>>>>>>>>>> seize stores of gun powder and some arms at
>>>>>>>>>>> Lexington, and yes, I've
>>>>>>>>>>> read stories about the Minute Men snipping from
>>>>>>>>>>> behind fences but I
>>>>>>>>>>> doubt greatly whether many rifles were used,
>>>>>>>>>>> although admittedly this
>>>>>>>>>>> seems to be a constant theme in U.S. history.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But, where did these "rifles" come from? The average
>>>>>>>>>>> farmer had no
>>>>>>>>>>> requirement for an expensive rifled gun, a smooth
>>>>>>>>>>> bore was far cheaper
>>>>>>>>>>> and far more versatile for use on the farm.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Additionally there were no organized munitions
>>>>>>>>>>> makers in the U.S. and
>>>>>>>>>>> rifles were made one at a time, and were extremely
>>>>>>>>>>> expensive. Kenneth
>>>>>>>>>>> Roberts in the historical novel Arundel, based on
>>>>>>>>>>> actual diaries of
>>>>>>>>>>> the 1775 Quebec Campaign, mentions used rifles with
>>>>>>>>>>> accoutrements
>>>>>>>>>>> exchanged for 12-15 English pounds. A smooth bore at
>>>>>>>>>>> the time might be
>>>>>>>>>>> 2 pounds and 4 shillings. To get an idea of how much
>>>>>>>>>>> this was there is
>>>>>>>>>>> a record of a John Moll paying 45 pounds for a
>>>>>>>>>>> 60’ X 230’ building lot
>>>>>>>>>>> in Allentown in 1772. And, William Carlin, a tailor
>>>>>>>>>>> in colonial
>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandria who made clothes for field hands as well
>>>>>>>>>>> as the planter
>>>>>>>>>>> elite, charged £3-5 for an ordinary wool suit.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Some of the greatest support furnished by the French
>>>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>>>> revolutionists was in the form of muskets and gun
>>>>>>>>>>> power. In the
>>>>>>>>>>> Battles of Saratoga on September 19 and October 7,
>>>>>>>>>>> 1777, it is
>>>>>>>>>>> estimated that as many as nine out of 10 American
>>>>>>>>>>> soldiers carried
>>>>>>>>>>> French arms, and were completely dependent on French
>>>>>>>>>>> gunpowder.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was engaged in a discussion on currency debasement
>>>>>>>>>> policy
>>>>>>>>>> (popularly called 'inflation') and remembered your post
>>>>>>>>>> above so I checked the NPV of 14 Sterling in 1775.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Current value 2400 pounds or US$3200. For reference,
>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>> average popular modern rifle runs somewhere around
>>>>>>>>>> $2000.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So you make a good point that premium equipment of
>>>>>>>>>> the era
>>>>>>>>>> was pricey. No wonder Louis sent muskets!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Typical selections:
>>>>>>>>>> https://blog.gunassociation.org/best-rifles/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/guns/rifles/centerfire/2011/11/20-best-semi-automatic-rifles-big-game-hunting/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> where $3000 rifles are at the far end of 'popular',
>>>>>>>>>> most are
>>>>>>>>>> below $2000, and the range is $800 to $7000
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was "into" gun smithing for a while and actually
>>>>>>>>> gave some thought
>>>>>>>>> to doing it as a business after I left the Military,
>>>>>>>>> and "back then",
>>>>>>>>> say the 1960's a good "deer rifle" with iron sights
>>>>>>>>> was in the $200
>>>>>>>>> range. And, disregarding my Military pay and
>>>>>>>>> allowances, I was making
>>>>>>>>> $10 a day part time in a gunsmith shop (:-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Disregarding "Home Defense" mentioned in your
>>>>>>>>> reference above, my
>>>>>>>>> grandfather used a Winchester lever action 38-55 as a
>>>>>>>>> "deer rifle" and
>>>>>>>>> killed his one deer a year under his license (and
>>>>>>>>> sometimes two if
>>>>>>>>> the Game Warden was down at the other end of the
>>>>>>>>> state) and had one
>>>>>>>>> packet of, I think it was 20 rounds, that he'd been
>>>>>>>>> using for
>>>>>>>>> something like 10 years.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which might say something about AR-15's, and other
>>>>>>>>> shoot em up,
>>>>>>>>> bang,bang, guns as hunting rifles (:-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wrong.
>>>>>>>> We've been over this here on RBT at least a dozen times
>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>> the years. My AR-15 repeats at the exact same speed as my
>>>>>>>> .38 Police Special revolver. Both are faster than
>>>>>>>> girlfriend's inherited .30 Winchester vintage lever,
>>>>>>>> but not
>>>>>>>> by all that much. None of those are magic lead-spraying
>>>>>>>> pew-pew-pew television weapons.
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your AR-15 has a 20 or 30 shot magazine. Most likely
>>>>>>> .223 Remington or NATO ammunition. Your Police Special
>>>>>>> has 6 shots. The 5 shot S&W only became common fairly
>>>>>>> recently. The lever action likely has a 7 or 8 or 9
>>>>>>> round tube fed ammo holding system. So roughly the
>>>>>>> AR-15 has 5 times the revolver capacity and 4 times the
>>>>>>> rifle capacity. You can easily fire two shots per
>>>>>>> second. Bang-bang. Thats one second. Maybe you can
>>>>>>> even fire three rounds per second.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At the June 12, 2016 Orlando Florida mass shooting at a
>>>>>>> GAY nightclub, a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle (it
>>>>>>> is an AR-15) and a Glock 17 semi auto pistol were used.
>>>>>>> 49 people killed, 53 wounded.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "In less than five minutes, Mateen had fired
>>>>>>> approximately 200 rounds, pausing only to reload." That
>>>>>>> works out to a little more than 40 rounds per minute.
>>>>>>> One and a half seconds per shot. Not too fast I guess.
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_MCX
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock#Glock_17
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It wasn't until October 2017, a whole year and 3 months
>>>>>>> later, that Orlando lost its crown as the biggest mass
>>>>>>> shooting in US history. That is when the Las Vegas
>>>>>>> concert killer used the bump stock device on his AR-15
>>>>>>> rifles to kill 60 and wound 411.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting#Weaponry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Paddock was found to have fired a total of 1,058 rounds
>>>>>>> from fifteen of the firearms: 1,049 from twelve
>>>>>>> AR-15-style rifles, eight from two AR-10-style rifles,
>>>>>>> and the round used to kill himself from the Smith &
>>>>>>> Wesson revolver."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> meh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And every day (more than usual this week) there are multiple
>>>>>> stabbings and sword/machete murders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.wate.com/news/sword-attack-in-indiana-leaves-2-dead-1-wounded/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.expressnews.com/news/local/article/Sword-wielding-man-shot-by-New-Braunfels-police-16836088.php
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/police-find-man-decapitating-girlfriend-with-machete-in-philadelphia/ar-AATJCVg
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/man-accused-of-attacking-lakewood-store-employee-with-machete-police-say/ar-AATJXiV
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thedailybeast.com/karla-jackelin-morales-allegedly-lured-jose-villanueva-to-ms-13-machete-death-and-skipped-bail
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I skip the stabbings/slashings with knives/razors which are
>>>>>> frequent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Turns out that by not prosecuting/detaining criminals,
>>>>>> mayhem results. Weapon of choice may vary but the results
>>>>>> are fungibly similar.
>>>>>
>>>>> But when you say "GUN" Ohoooo it is so scary.
>>>>>
>>>>> As has been discussed before, the FBI records show that in
>>>>> 2015 "long
>>>>> guns" killed 463 victims and hands and feet killed 651.
>>>>>
>>>>> But a news article announcing "Oh Yes, he was kicked to
>>>>> death" is sort
>>>>> of, well sort of every day, and far less thrilling that
>>>>> "He was shot,
>>>>> 17 times!"
>>>>
>>>> As we've mentioned before: Data on U.S. gun crime generally
>>>> shows a small number of homicides by "long gun" or "rifle."
>>>> But it shows a large number by unspecified "firearm," a
>>>> separate category from "handgun." I assume that means that
>>>> the type of gun was undetermined. And I think it's
>>>> reasonable to say a large portion of those undetermined
>>>> cases are in fact ARs.
>>>>
>>>> And regarding hands and feet vs. semi-automatic, easily
>>>> customized, large magazine assault-style rifles: Can we
>>>> again consider advantages and disadvantages? I shouldn't
>>>> have to point out that hands and feet have countless
>>>> practical uses, and that life without them would be
>>>> difficult. (The same is true of knives, BTW.)
>>>>
>>>> What are the advantages and disadvantages of AR-style
>>>> weaponry? Well, a disadvantage is that those guns are the
>>>> weapon of choice for crackpots choosing to blow away bunches
>>>> of kids in a schoolroom, a bunch of people in a night club,
>>>> a bunch of people at a music concert, etc. Also, their
>>>> widespread presence makes the job of a cop much more
>>>> difficult, since it's easy for them to be out-gunned.
>>>> (That's something almost no other developed countries have
>>>> to worry about).
>>>>
>>>> The AR advantages are so slight that most truly civilized
>>>> countries do perfectly well with roughly zero of them in
>>>> circulation. In fact, those other countries do far better.
>>>>
>>>> What _are_ the advantages of AR-style guns? "Dude, they're
>>>> cool! And when I play with mine or shoot at those silhouette
>>>> targets, I can pretend I'm a really tough commando defending
>>>> my home against ... um, them other people. Even though I'm
>>>> really a feeble 77 year old pot bellied guy with memory
>>>> problems."
>>>>
>>>> "Really cool" doesn't outweigh "27 schoolkids murdered" in
>>>> my book.
>>>>
>>> As was noted by Mr Bach above, every problem is not a
>>> crisis. You're not innumerate. There are more than 20
>>> million AR-15 in the US of A, the greater bulk of which just
>>> passed another uneventful day, oiled and cased.
>>
>> Exactly how would a gun homicide have a type of gun "indeterminate"? While there are rifles that shoot some handgun calibers the velocity of the bullet is enough different to determine whether it was a rifle or a handgun. IE Henry lever action rifles are made that shoot .357 but the velocity and rifling are substantially different. If you can recover a bullet you can almost always identify the brand of gun it was fired from. Sometimes even the year of manufacture.
>>
>
>As a longtime reader of daily crime reports, there's no
>mystery here.
>
>Consider that before the prevalence of 9mm, the #1 most
>frequently lethal round was .22LR. There's no way to
>determine which format was employed, both are popular.
>
>Back to 9mm:
>https://www.barrettrifles.com/9mm-rifles
>
well, 9mm is 0.354" and .35 caliber guns are not uncommon, dating back
to at least 1906 with the .35 Remington cartridge (:-)

But the best one is the 8"/35 caliber gun Mark 3 and Mark 4, developed
by the Navy in 1890
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-inch/35-caliber_gun
Muzzle velocity - 2,100 ft/sec
Effective range - 16,000 yards
(:-)

>And just as the favorite mob weapon at one time was the
>Thompson .45, there are applications for both pistol and
>rifle/carbine in other calibers.
>
>Add in through wounds, fragments unrecovered, and you have
>an 'indeterminate' area.
--
Cheers,

John B.