On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 18:17:12 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 7:02:16 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:29:59 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 9:48:20 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 6:06:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> > On 2/20/2022 2:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > > On 2/20/2022 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> > >> On 2/20/2022 11:41 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > >>> On 2/19/2022 6:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> > >>>> On 2/19/2022 1:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > >>>>> On 2/19/2022 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>> On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>> Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a
>> >> > >>>>>>> 12 gauge
>> >> > >>>>>>> shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded
>> >> > >>>>>>> with
>> >> > >>>>>>> "buck shot"
>> >> > >>>>>>> as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever,
>> >> > >>>>>>> more people
>> >> > >>>>>>> per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
>> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>> And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for
>> >> > >>>>>> home defense - not that I need either for that purpose.
>> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>> But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
>> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>
>> >> > >>>>> How do you know what other men feel?
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> I talk to them, Andrew. I have friends who have invited me
>> >> > >>>> to machine gun shoots, who bragged about doing things there
>> >> > >>>> like blowing up junk cars and refrigerators. I have a
>> >> > >>>> non-gun-nut friend who talked about how shooting an AR
>> >> > >>>> "really makes you feel cool."
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> What's this pot-bellied dude
>> >> > >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1LZKJmtbw
>> >> > >>>> doing at 0:50 to 0:55 and 3:10 to 3:16 if not playing Rambo?
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> Oh, full auto. I thought we were discussing AR-15.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gf_5MR4tE
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Unassisted. And how charming that he's choosing human
>> >> > >> silhouettes!
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Really? Standard target shapes trigger you?
>> >> > > Perhaps undead humans be better?
>> >> > > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rangnat.jpg
>> >> > Let's review. I said that whatever their other uses, AR rifles are
>> >> > optimized for combat; that was the essence of the design. And AR guys
>> >> > play at being Rambo. They imagine themselves in combat. I gave examples
>> >> > of guys I know well, and I linked a video of an out of shape middle aged
>> >> > guy doing precisely that. The use of a human silhouette confirms the
>> >> > mentality.
>> >> >
>> >> > You implied it didn't count because he was on full auto.
>> >> >
>> >> > But some guys can shoot very fast without full auto. They can fit bump
>> >> > stocks, or just spend hours developing a really fast finger. Pot bellied
>> >> > Rambos can feel good about themselves as long as their gun looks tough
>> >> > and they can pretend to be blasting bad guys.
>> >> What is sold as an AR15 to the public are not actually the militarized guns so why do you keep insisting they are? Is your position that lying about something is acceptable to maintain your position?
>> >
>> >Correct. And no one on this forum has said they are the exact same gun. But everyone who has an education, also knows the AR-15 was developed during the 1950s as a military gun. And it was later adopted as the M-16 rifle by the USA military. And many other countries around the world use it too. And to capitalize on that military contract and success, many companies have since sold a civilian version of the AR-15 to the public. And done very well monetarily. Just like every gun manufacturer makes a Colt model 1911 pistol. Just like the original military version adopted back around WW1. Money to be made with the connection to the military. And remember the Humvee? Made by AM General. They also made a civilian model of the Humvee. And later called it the Hummer. It was not the same as the military Humvees. They looked the same. But had different motors and transmissions and axles and driveshafts and interiors. They were in reality 99% different than what the military
>> >used. But everyone could still say they had a military Humvee truck. Just like the Army Commandos used. Grunt grunt.
>> I think I would have to argue a bit about your (apparent) assumption
>> that some firearms are accepted largely because they are associated
>> with the military.
>>
>> The Colt 1911, for example is, or was, the only large caliber,
>> automatic, well semi-automatic to be exact, pistol available for years
>> and years. So if one wanted an "automatic", large bore pistol, there
>> was only one choice. NRA pistol shooting was for .22, Any center fire,
>> and .45, pistols only and yes you could shoot a .45 caliber revolver -
>> I had a shooting buddy that did - but with the handicap of having to
>> thumb cock the gun for every shot.
>
>OK. I will give you that you do state "large caliber" and "large bore". But John Browning invented many semi automatic pistols in 25, 32, 38 before the 1911 model. For Colt and FN. The Colt pocket pistols were very popular. John Browning also invented the Browning Hi-Power 9mm pistol a decade or so later. FN made them for Belgian military. The Luger was also created around 1900 and used by numerous militaries. But maybe 9mm is not considered large caliber or large bore.

Certainly true but the NRA pistol matches are for .22 caliber, or "Any
center fire" or .45 caliber. Thus, at least for NRA matches the 9mm is
a middle size, "any center fore" caliber.

>
>>
>> As for long guns, the NRA sold the 1903 Springfield rifle for some
>> unimaginably small sum but I don't remember people marching about with
>> the military version. The action and barrel used for the basis of a
>> "civilian" gun, yes, but not the full stock with sling, military
>> version.
>>
>> But, perhaps it is some sort of desire to be a "Soldier". I read that
>> 18% of U.S. adults were in, or were veterans, in 1980, while today the
>> number is less then 1%.
>>
>> Perhaps, possibly, not having actually served, there is some sort of
>> childish desire, in U.S. males, to "Be a Soldier". One could, of
>> course, enlist and actually BE a solder but then one would likely have
>> to travel to some strange and foreign land to be shot at. No! Far
>> better to play solder???
>>
>> This, of course, is Frank's assertion, that American Males want to
>> play solder, and Andrew tells us that some 20 million - about 14% of
>> the U.S. male population over 10 years old - have AR type rifles. Can
>> it be?
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Sylvester Stallone Rambo movies. Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. Back in the 1950s Audie Murphy made several war movies. A Congressional Medal of Honor winner. And there was a movie with Gary Cooper in 1941 about Sergeant Alvin York. Congressional Medal of Honor winner. And today there are gun shooting competitions where the participants dress up as cowboys and use Colt single action revolvers and Winchester 1873 lever action rifles to shoot up fake old west towns and targets. I doubt too many of the participants were around 150 years ago in the 1870s. But cocking the hammer on your pistol and swinging the lever on your rifle is manly man stuff. Today the Vietnam was is the most recent major war. So today men want to own an M-16 rifle (AR-15). And join a militia. And wear camo clothing. And paint that black and green makeup on their faces so they disappear into the jungle.

Maybe it was the movies as certainly we had the Lone Ranger on the
radio when I was a kid :-) But more seriously, I shot on both Military
ad Civilian ranges, built guns for people and generally was "around
guns" for many years and I never saw the people that Frank describe,
but perhaps these are the new generation people.

As I sarcastically said, maybe they are Soldier wannabe's.

--
Cheers,

John B.