On 3/8/2022 11:15 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:57:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
>>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
>>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
>>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
>>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
>>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
>>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
>>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
>>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
>>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
>>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
>>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
>>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
>>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
>>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
>>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
>>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
>>>>>> by his mother."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
>>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
>>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
>>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
>>>>> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
>>>>> the like.
>>>>
>>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
>>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
>>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
>>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
>>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
>>>
>>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
>>> mentioned.
>>
>> Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're right." But
>> that went away as soon as I began reading your link.
>>
>> Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was about
>> "psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed to concentrate on
>> things like simple depression. Those are very different maladies or
>> mental states. Your typical depressed individual can't get motivated to
>> make the bed, let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
>>
>> Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are comparable to
>> the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't they have America's gun
>> violence problem?
>>
>> The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S. problem isn't
>> population insanity or some inherent evil in Americans.
>>
>> National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just have crappy
>> gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined each year because of them.
>
>
> Gee Frank, I do believe that you have "gone right round the bend" as
> the saying goes. Jihads are gun criminals?
>
> And here I had always understood that Jihads were the extensively
> religious people. The word "jihad", in Arabic, simply means to strive
> or struggle and is generally used in the sense of striving or
> struggling against the non-believers.
> I might add that I spent many years in Indonesia the largest
> (population wise) Islamic country in the world.
>
> And now you are telling me that they are just gun criminals.

John, if you can't keep track of the debate, you're not worth debating!

It wasn't me who introduced "psychopaths and jihadis." It was Andrew.
And I never mentioned Islam at all. My point was just that the U.S.
population is similar to Canada's.

YOU attempted to support Andrew's point (rather incompetently) with data
on depression instead of "psychopaths and jihadis."

Now you're saying _I_ claimed jihadis are gun criminals? Sheesh. As I've
had to say to Tom: Take notes!

> But if bad gun laws are really the cause of the levels of crime in the
> U.S. how do you explain the fact that some states, Vermont comes to
> mind here, have very, very lax, or non existent, gun laws and a very
> low level of gun crime. The "upper" New England States, New Hampshire,
> Vermont and Maine have gun ownership of 41.10%, 50.5% and 46.80% and a
> gun homicide rate of 0.6/100,000, 1.3 and 1.2. And these states are
> not unique. Oregon has gun ownership of 50,8% and a firearm homicide
> rate of 0.8.
>
> But Louisiana has a gun ownership rate of 53.1% and a firearm homicide
> rate of 8.1. roughly 3% more guns then Vermont and Oregon and as much
> as 10 times the gun crime.
>
> Your arguments don't seem to reflect realism.

You're retreating into oversimplification. Read back as far as you like.
You'll never find me claiming that _only_ gun laws have an effect. More
specifically, within the U.S., there are cultural differences,
demographic differences, differences in economics and density and more
that have an effect on gun crime.

But pick your favorite state - Vermont? - and compare its rates of gun
violence vs. other countries. Canada, just across the border, has less
gun violence in Quebec. New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and even Ontario are
better than Vermont.

And of course, the U.S. as a whole is dismal compared to essentially all
developed countries.

If you think that's not because of our disastrous gun policies and gun
culture, I wish you'd give your own succinct explanation. You've danced
around that question for a long time now.

--
- Frank Krygowski