On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 5:31:07 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 8:30:52 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>
> >> > On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:12:11 AM UTC-5, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >> On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 7:34:15 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> > On 5/12/2022 4:21 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> >> > > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:21:11 AM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> >> > >>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> writes:
> >> >> > >>>
> >> >> > >>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 16:12:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> >> > >>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> >> > >>>>
> >> >> > >>>>> The only object overhead might, I suppose, have been a meteor. And
> >> >> > >>>>> really, his biggest chance of a head injury would have been while
> >> >> > >>>>> driving the truck, unless he tripped on exit. But apparently no
> >> >> > >>>>> regulation said to wear a helmet while driving or exiting.
> >> >> > >>>>
> >> >> > >>>> The main purpose of hard hats on open-air jobs is to make it easy to
> >> >> > >>>> tell the workmen from spectators who need to be shooed out of the
> >> >> > >>>> workzone.
> >> >> > >>> +1. A hard hat says "I belong here, I know the rules and follow them".
> >> >> > >>> Finer gradations are possible -- visitors get semi-disposable "bump
> >> >> > >>> caps", possibly in an odd color. Management have spotless hard hats.
> >> >> > >>> Actual workers have dingy looking hard hats, in the winter they've got
> >> >> > >>> ear warmers on them. Those that wish to stand out can procure
> >> >> > >>> OSHA-approved cowboy style hard hats.
> >> >> > >>>
> >> >> > >>> But why rag on hard hats when we've just seen most of the world forced
> >> >> > >>> to learn a new pointless performative PPE dance? Walk up to the door of
> >> >> > >>> the pub, drag a minimal face rag out of your pocket, put it on, walk to
> >> >> > >>> your table, take it off and put it in your pocket. Eat, drink, and be
> >> >> > >>> merry until you have to stand up and walk to the john, then put the
> >> >> > >>> nasty contaminated face rag on until you get back to the table. Sit
> >> >> > >>> down, take it off ...
> >> >> > >>>
> >> >> > >>> --
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Agree. We should re-implement the policies used in the mid and later
> >> >> > >> 2020. Stop all gatherings and close restaurants, bars, meeting
> >> >> > >> places. That would help to stamp out the Covid epidemic. But USians
> >> >> > >> value human life very little. So we are happy to tolerate a couple
> >> >> > >> hundred thousand extra dead people each year. 350,831 Covid deaths in
> >> >> > >> 2020 per the CDC. 323 deaths each day according to the CDC right now.
> >> >> > >> That only amounts to 118,000 dead each year. A pittance.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I really can't tell whether you're trying to be serious.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Fortunately governments all over the world, with the exception of the
> >> >> > > CCP, have finally realized what lunacy that is. Perhaps it's only
> >> >> > > temporary, as we're plainly living through one of the more extreme
> >> >> > > episodes of popular delusions and the madness of crowds.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > The tiny or illusory benefits of lockdowns are plainly outweighed
> >> >> > > by the damages to industry, commerce, education, non-COVID health care,
> >> >> > > civil liberties, and confidence in government institutions. That last
> >> >> > > one might be the clincher.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Here's a study for you:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Currently infant formula is unavailable at 43% of the normal retail
> >> >> > > locations, are you in favor of that? How about introducing another
> >> >> > > first grade class to school at the boring end of a computer screen,
> >> >> > > assuming their parents have the wherewithal to provide broadband access?
> >> >> > > Or another years toll of the sick, tired, and old dying in nursing homes
> >> >> > > and hospitals without the comfort and support of even one visit from
> >> >> > > family or friends?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Lockdowns are plainly untenable. But if you want to remove yourself
> >> >> > > from human circulation, save for the occasional usenet posting, zoom
> >> >> > > call, or grocery drone delivery, then I wish you well. Just don't try
> >> >> > > to enforce that on the rest of us.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >> These were the leading causes of death in the USA in 2020. Heart
> >> >> > >> disease: 696,962, Cancer: 602,350, COVID-19: 350,831, Accidents
> >> >> > >> (unintentional injuries): 200,955, Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases):
> >> >> > >> 160,264, Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 152,657 (Tommy thinks
> >> >> > >> Covid should be included in this category), Alzheimer’s disease:
> >> >> > >> 134,242, Diabetes: 102,188, Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,544 (or maybe
> >> >> > >> Tommy thinks this is Covid), Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and
> >> >> > >> nephrosis: 52,547. Not sure why CDC has 2020 deaths and not 2021
> >> >> > >> deaths. Government is not too up to date on their websites.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> But Covid killing only 118,000 per year at the current rate. That
> >> >> > >> would be only 7th best killer. We can ignore it now.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
> >> >> > >> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > The Swedes, amazingly, were the un-lemmings on that suicide
> >> >> > mission. Took everyone else (except the Middle Kingdom of
> >> >> > Xi) 2 years to wake up and smell the coffee.
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Andrew Muzi
> >> >> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >> >> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >> >> I assume you are referring to Sweden going against the worldwide
> >> >> methodology of lockdowns and restrictions for Covid. At least
> >> >> initially in 2020 and through part of 2021. Everyone except Shanghai
> >> >> is wide open now. Was Sweden successful?
> >> >>
> >> >> Sweden population 10.2 million Covid deaths 18,824 Infections 2.5 million
> >> >> Finland pop. 5.5 million Covid deaths 4,150 Infections 1.05 million
> >> >> Norway pop. 5.5 million Covid deaths 3,061 Infections 1.4 million
> >> >> Denmark pop. 5.8 million Covid deaths 6,260 Infections 3.1 million
> >> >>
> >> >> Sweden has double the population of all of its nordic neighbors. So
> >> >> you have to double the deaths and cases to get comparisons with its
> >> >> nordic neighbors. If you do that then Sweden had 50% more Covid
> >> >> deaths than Denmark. 200% more than Norway. 125% more than
> >> >> Finland. Success?
> >> The argument wasn't that Sweden did better than any other country, or
> >> even better than they would have with lockdowns and masks, it was that
> >> they didn't do *worse*. We see around the world a range of results,
> >> some worse, some better. There are those that claim to know why, I'm
> >> not one of them. If you compare Sweden to their neighbors Poland and
> >> the Baltic states, they look better.
> >
> > But Sweden did WORSE than its neighbors. Sweden shares a long border
> > with Finland and Norway. Hundreds or thousand miles with each. I am
> > sure they are all the exact same people. They might speak different
> > languages in each country. But other than that, you could pick people
> > from all three countries and throw them down in one of the other
> > countries and they would be just as happy. They are all identical
> > people. So that is the only correct comparison to make. And Sweden
> > did worse with its approach.
> You're sure they're the same people? Maybe you should ask one; I'll bet
> they'll say they're not the same. For one thing, Sweden has more people
> living in high population density areas than Finland and Norway.

Yes they are the same. Go back a few years (centuries) and you will find the exact same people settling in all of the countries. Their philosophies and actions have changed since then. But genetically, they all came from the same sources. Austrians, southern Germans, Swiss, and Liechtenstein are all separate countries. But I am positive their genetic origin is the same.

> >> Finland, Denmark, and Norway actually did really well, it's just not
> >> clear that NPIs had anything to do with that. All were fairly
> >> non-stringent by world standards. If you're feeling open minded you
> >> might read this page: https://swprs.org/judgment-day-sweden-vindicated/
> >> lots of good links to follow.
> >> >> And here is the total GDP of each country in 2020 and the percentage
> >> >> change from the prior year. Sweden has double the population so has
> >> >> a bigger GDP than its neighbors. Its double Finland's, but not near
> >> >> double of Denmark and Norway. But per person GDP wealth is somewhat
> >> >> similar amongst all these nordic countries.
> >> >> Denmark GDP 2020 355 Billion -2.1%
> >> >> Finland GDP 2020 271 Billion -2.8%
> >> >> Norway GDP 2020 362 Billion -0.7%
> >> >> Sweden GDP 2020 537 Billion -2.9%
> >> >> Did Sweden win by not locking down? Economically it appears they saw
> >> >> similar declines in GDP in 2020 as its neighbors. Except Norway did
> >> >> really well. But they are an outlier apparently.
> >> >>
> >> >> Did Sweden WIN by not locking down? Their GDP dropped similar to
> >> >> their neighbors. So no economic win. They had a lot WORSE death rate
> >> >> than their neighbors. I think deaths is kind of important. And their
> >> >> sick/infections was similar to Finland and Norway so cost of people
> >> >> going to the hospital was about the same. Denmark was an outlier
> >> >> with sick people so throw them out.
> >> >>
> >> >> If the goal was to kill people with no economic benefits, then
> >> >> Sweden won by not locking down and having no Covid
> >> >> restrictions. Yeah Sweden. Kill em, kill em, kill em.
> >> The world economy is all tied together these days. At work I'm
> >> constantly reminded of things that are very hard to buy any more because
> >> of troubles in China. When your trading partners' economies suffer,
> >> yours will tend to suffer as well.
> >>
> >> But, it's really not all about the GDP. Consider the children and young
> >> people that have missed educational and employment opportunities they
> >> can never really make up -- they and their country will be somewhat
> >> worse off for as long as they live.
> >
> > I agree. The lockdowns had costs on people. But if the alternative
> > is death, and/or months in an ICU on a respirator, then the cost seems
> > pretty minimal. Or do you think its better to have dead educated
> > school children over alive less educated children? I believe ALIVE is
> > the best choice no matter the cost.
> Children never were at significant risk of death from covid. The FDA
> recently revised the child death figures downward by something like 20%,
> and they're still almost certainly exaggerated.
> >> Consider health care. My neighbor died of cancer during the covid
> >> fiasco. Normally she would have been in hospital taking chemotherapy,
> >> but that was not allowed. Her husband certainly believes that was
> >> responsible for her death, and I suspect he's right.
> >
> > Yes. If we had more and stronger lockdowns and caution early in the
> > Covid pandemic, then it might not have spread as much. And would not
> > have had as many people clogging the hospitals. And then your
> > neighbor's wife could have been admitted and gotten chemotherapy.
> > What is that old saying "Nip it in the bud".
> That's not what happened. After the whole "two weeks to flatten the
> curve" thing, which actually made sense to me, hospitals had fewer
> patients than normal, laid off staff, and cried bitterly about losing
> money.

So it was some kind of conspiracy by the hospitals and medical profession to make Covid a huge money maker for themselves. And if the hospitals all laid off staff, why didn't they just hire staff back once Covid blew up? Did all of the staff die of Covid and there was none to hire back?

> >> Cancer and high
> >> blood pressure screening, psychiatric care, routine vaccinations like
> >> measles, polio, and chickenpox all declined markedly during the covid
> >> NPIs;
> >
> > Yes, Covid impaired a huge cost on the country and people.
> No, the insane response to covid imposed a huge cost on the our country
> and others.
> >> far from being swamped, hospitals laid off workers and lost a lot
> >> of money.
> >
> > ?????? I heard lots of stories of hospitals paying huge money to
> > attract nurses and doctors. I met a woman who was a traveling nurse.
> > She made great money traveling to hospitals and living in an RV while
> > there. And every single article I saw said hospitals were operating
> > at overcapacity. No spare beds. Now I agree they may have lost
> > money. Because they were forced to treat Covid patients and were not
> > able to schedule the big paying luxury surgeries that make the
> > hospitals huge profit.
> We had field hospitals set up here in newly empty university buildings,
> they were never used. The navy sent hospital ships to NYC, they were
> never used. It's true that there were periods of high hospital use for
> covid patients, but that was for a small fraction of the time.
> >
> >> If you believe medical care does any good,
> >
> > Personally, I am for medical care. But Covid disrupted the usual
> > routine for medical services in the USA.
> No, the insane response to covid disrupted the usual routine for medical
> services in the USA. If we had responded as we did to the influenza
> pandemics of 1957 or 1968, which almost no one remembers, we would have
> had about the same result.
> >> you can see that
> >> this is a bad thing. Measles or chickenpox in a naive population would
> >> make covid look like a walk in the park. Drug overdose deaths, the
> >> panic du jour before covid, are also way up.
> >
> > Hopefully, now that no one cares about Covid deaths any longer, we can
> > use some of the attention to medical care in the USA to solving the
> > other huge medical problems we still have. Not likely, but maybe.
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Then there is the normal enjoyment of life. How much is it worth to be
> >> able to attend a wedding, a graduation, a funeral? How much to be able
> >> to hold a new grandchild?
> >
> > I guess the worth has to be judged to the cost. Potentially,
> > probably, kill the newlyweds and groomsmen and bridesmaids and new
> > graduate. Is the worth greater than that cost? I'd say no. As for
> > funeral, a friend died during the Covid measures. Could not attend
> > his funeral. Also could not visit him in the hospital a week or so
> > before he died. Sad about that. But I understand why the hospital
> > was not letting any visitors in. We tried to visit him and went to
> > the hospital but the signs on the doors said no one could come in.
> The funny thing about hospitals and nursing homes is that it really
> makes a difference in your care whether you have someone visiting you
> and advocating for you. If you're stuck in a nursing home and no one
> ever visits you really might as well already be dead to the people that
> have to take care of you. I would hate to be stuck in a hospital and
> not be able to have any visitors, not just for social reasons, but to
> make an impression on the staff.

I agree. Family, friends visiting the ailing and indigent is very helpful. But the authorities determined the risk of increased Covid to the inpatients was too great. Risk was greater than reward.

> >> Be with a dying parent? How about just
> >> riding down to the local coffee house to have a coffee, or the one four
> >> towns and a state over, if you feel like it? That's worth something to
> >> me.
> >
> > Yes its worth something to me too. But if those actions help to kill
> > other people or myself, then how much worth is it?
> >
> >>
> >> How much do you suppose you would have to pay Mr. Krygowski to give up
> >> religious services and playing music with his friends for a year?
> >
> > Concerning religious services, my Mom could not attend church for
> > several months. Churches canceled. But they are back to going to
> > church on Sunday morning again. I think a few of the church members
> > died of Covid. I would have to wonder how religious a person is, and
> > believe in a good deity, to willingly try to kill people just to have
> > church services. Most religions have helping people as one of their
> > core tenets. Not killing them.
> "Willingly try to kill?" We have seen, once again, that viruses are
> going to do what they do, and we can't stop them. Sometimes we can
> affect the timing, a little, but that's really it.
> >> I'll
> >> bet it's a check I don't want to write. How about Mr. Muzi, to remain
> >> celibate, assuming he's not allowed out of the house? That's what got
> >> Neil Ferguson, he couldn't stay away from his mistress all the while he
> >> was telling everyone in the UK they had to stay home. For that matter,
> >> how much would you have to pay the median well-coiffed individual to
> >> give up hair cuts for a year? That should have got Nancy Pelosi, but
> >> we're apparently not as demanding of our politicians as the brits are.
> >
> > I am aware people say one thing and then do another. When I got a
> > haircut the cutter had a mask on to protect her. And I think I held a
> > mask up to my mouth to help too.
> That's evidence that they say one thing and *believe* another, which for
> someone like Neil Ferguson is pretty important.
> >>
> >> My point is that an economist would tell you that all of those costs are
> >> actually taken from the wealth of the nation, even if they don't appear
> >> directly in the GDP. Multiply by 300 million, almost all of whom care
> >> about *something* outside the house, and you're talking real money.
> >> Normal life is worth something.
> >
> > Yes there was/is an economic cost to Covid. And emotional cost too.
> > But what is the cost of a life? For many it is zero. For others its
> > a lot. Everyone in the world paid a price. Some more, some less. It
> > seems compared to lots of other places in the world, the USA paid a
> > higher price than it needed to.
> Perhaps you should try to emigrate to China, where they still take covid
> seriously.

Or better yet, have the USA take Covid more seriously. You seem to love the Republican methodology of labeling someone evil and thus branding them. But that does not work too well. The Chinese overall government system is less than ideal. Yet it has allowed 1.4 billion people to sort of flourish.. Sort of. If the USA had 1.4 billion people, could democracy work? India has about as many people as China and I am not sure India is thriving. India is supposedly a democracy. Its often reported that Eisenhower was amazed at the road network in Germany after the war. He saw how beneficial it was. And implemented it in the USA. Just because Germany was run by Nazi Hitler, does not mean they did not do some things right. Dictator Stalin fought Germany to a standstill and eventually repulsed them. In that case maybe having a dictator was the best way to fight Hitler. So dictator Stalin was good. In that one and only situation.

> >
> >> > Sorry, forgot to post links providing the numbers above.
> >> >
> >> > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8242624/
> >> > Cases and deaths from Covid.
> >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:COVID-19_pandemic_data
> >> > GDP and growth.
> >> > https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=SE&name_desc=true
> >> > I used Google search to get each country's population.
> >> --
> --