I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.

But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.

I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.

He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.

As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
motorists who die of brain injury.)

My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
certification test.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
>
> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
>
> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>
> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
>
> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
> motorists who die of brain injury.)
>
> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
> certification test.
>
>
Sorry to hear!

Yes it’s hugely variable as to what a injury will do, or put it away some
folks walk away from really high energy events and others are harmed/killed
by what appears to be something quite benign.

Essentially our knowledge is clearly lacking.

Roger Merriman.

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:22:21 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
> > involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
> > that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
> > I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
> >
> > But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
> > friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
> > well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
> >
> > I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
> > where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
> > with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
> > husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
> > unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
> >
> > He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
> >
> > As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
> > because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
> > wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
> > though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
> > motorists who die of brain injury.)
> >
> > My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
> > zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
> > certification test.
> >
> >
> Sorry to hear!
>
> Yes it’s hugely variable as to what a injury will do, or put it away some
> folks walk away from really high energy events and others are harmed/killed
> by what appears to be something quite benign.
>
> Essentially our knowledge is clearly lacking.

Friends may come and friends may go. Would they not, if true friends, wish us to go on?

Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
>
> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
>
> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>
> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
>
> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
> motorists who die of brain injury.)
>
> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
> certification test.
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird....You know about statistics, no?

Lou

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:13:53 p.m. UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
> > I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
> > involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
> > that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
> > I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
> >
> > But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
> > friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
> > well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
> >
> > I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
> > where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
> > with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
> > husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
> > unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
> >
> > He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
> >
> > As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
> > because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
> > wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
> > though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
> > motorists who die of brain injury.)
> >
> > My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
> > zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
> > certification test.
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird....You know about statistics, no?
>
> Lou

Frank is vehemently opposed to helmets for bicyclists. Thus he denigrates both the helmet and t he bicyclist for wearing one.

I'm sorry that he lost a friend.

Cheers

On 5/6/2022 2:42 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:13:53 p.m. UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
>>> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
>>> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
>>> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
>>> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
>>>
>>> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
>>> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
>>> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
>>>
>>> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
>>> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
>>> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
>>> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
>>> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>>>
>>> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
>>>
>>> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
>>> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
>>> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
>>> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
>>> motorists who die of brain injury.)
>>>
>>> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
>>> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
>>> certification test.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>> A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird....You know about statistics, no?
>>
>> Lou
>
> Frank is vehemently opposed to helmets for bicyclists. Thus he denigrates both the helmet and t he bicyclist for wearing one.

Please try to be honest. I don't denigrate bicyclists for wearing
helmets. Most of the people I ride with wear them almost always, and
I've never denigrated any of them for that reason. That's despite some
of them being very rude to me about my personal choice.

I do denigrate the industry that has promoted this scam for decades, and
the "safety" people who claim bicyclists MUST wear a helmet every time
they ride. I denigrate those who emphasize every _cyclist_ brain injury
death, especially if the cyclist did not wear a helmet, but who ignore
the countless more brain injury deaths of pedestrians, motorists and
people just walking around their houses - people who are never subjected
to helmet shame.

About the helmets: Why is it that actual facts about the truly low level
of their actual protection levels are treated as objectionable? Why is
it that anything questioning the "always wear a helmet" dogma is
considered heretical? Are they _really_ religious talismans that must
always be venerated, never questioned?

Oh, and I will admit, I'm not fond of people distorting my views in this
forum. That behavior deserves denigration. Again, please try to be honest.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:13:53 PM UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
> > I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
> > involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
> > that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
> > I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
> >
> > But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
> > friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
> > well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
> >
> > I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
> > where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
> > with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
> > husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
> > unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
> >
> > He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
> >
> > As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
> > because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
> > wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
> > though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
> > motorists who die of brain injury.)
> >
> > My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
> > zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
> > certification test.
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird....You know about statistics, no?
>
> Lou

+1
Way to lose sight of the bigger issue, Frank.

On 5/6/2022 3:04 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:13:53 PM UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
>>> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
>>> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
>>> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
>>> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
>>>
>>> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
>>> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
>>> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
>>>
>>> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
>>> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
>>> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
>>> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
>>> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>>>
>>> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
>>>
>>> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
>>> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
>>> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
>>> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
>>> motorists who die of brain injury.)
>>>
>>> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
>>> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
>>> certification test.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>> A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird....You know about statistics, no?
>>
>> Lou
>
> +1
> Way to lose sight of the bigger issue, Frank.

My friend died from a very minor fall despite the universally touted
protection of the "always wear it!" magic hat.

I'm not allowed to say the magic didn't work?

This does look like religious dogma to me. Every "my helmet saved my
life!" story is blessed. But "the helmet failed him" story must be
condemned.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Lou Holtman wrote:
> Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
>> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
>> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
>> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
>> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
>>
>> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
>> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
>> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
>>
>> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
>> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
>> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
>> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
>> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>>
>> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.

Well, who really knows? Had your other, ex-cycling club, friend died
because of misapplied and botched respirator therapy, the hospital would
have claimed C*vid to be the cause of death. Any good news from him, Frank?

>> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
>> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
>> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
>> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
>> motorists who die of brain injury.)
>>
>> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
>> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
>> certification test.

"Heureka, Frank was riiighT!" should have been the unfortunate accident
victim's noble last words -- but see, Frank, few friends are that
considerate!

> A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird....You know about statistics, no?

What statistic, Lou? I remember informal "Wellgo accident" and "loose
cleat screws" statistics I won't elaborate on. But I'd certainly be
interested about which combination of pedals, cleats, shoes were used,
an what kind of trouble had earlier been going on with the pedal.

--
Hmmm, quickly pass the truck, or watch what that opposing traffic is up
to? <https://t.me/intelslava/28116>

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:15:23 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/6/2022 3:04 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:13:53 PM UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
> >>> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
> >>> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
> >>> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
> >>> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
> >>>
> >>> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
> >>> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
> >>> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
> >>>
> >>> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
> >>> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
> >>> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
> >>> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
> >>> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
> >>>
> >>> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
> >>>
> >>> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
> >>> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
> >>> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
> >>> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
> >>> motorists who die of brain injury.)
> >>>
> >>> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
> >>> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
> >>> certification test.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> - Frank Krygowski
> >> A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird....You know about statistics, no?
> >>
> >> Lou
> >
> > +1
> > Way to lose sight of the bigger issue, Frank.
> My friend died from a very minor fall despite the universally touted
> protection of the "always wear it!" magic hat.
>
> I'm not allowed to say the magic didn't work?
>
> This does look like religious dogma to me. Every "my helmet saved my
> life!" story is blessed. But "the helmet failed him" story must be
> condemned.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Would he have been better of without a helmet? Never mind.

Lou

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:21:02 PM UTC+2, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Lou Holtman wrote:
? > What statistic, Lou? I remember informal "Wellgo accident" and "loose
> cleat screws" statistics I won't elaborate on. But I'd certainly be
> interested about which combination of pedals, cleats, shoes were used,
> an what kind of trouble had earlier been going on with the pedal.

You are not smart to keep using pedals that gave you troubles getting out. You fix that. What I always find strange is that people when facing that problem keep trying to get out instead of starting to pedal again.
Ritchey and Wellgo are cheap SPD knock off crap.
What statistics? Helmets are not a 100% solution, but you know that. Smoking bad for you health? Ha, my grandpa smoked his whole life and died at an age of 89 years.

Lou

>
>

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 5:36:18 p.m. UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:21:02 PM UTC+2, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> > Lou Holtman wrote:
> ?
> > What statistic, Lou? I remember informal "Wellgo accident" and "loose
> > cleat screws" statistics I won't elaborate on. But I'd certainly be
> > interested about which combination of pedals, cleats, shoes were used,
> > an what kind of trouble had earlier been going on with the pedal.
> You are not smart to keep using pedals that gave you troubles getting out.. You fix that. What I always find strange is that people when facing that problem keep trying to get out instead of starting to pedal again.
> Ritchey and Wellgo are cheap SPD knock off crap.
> What statistics? Helmets are not a 100% solution, but you know that. Smoking bad for you health? Ha, my grandpa smoked his whole life and died at an age of 89 years.
>
> Lou
>
>
> >
> >

I had some clipless road pedals that I found it nearly impossible to get out of at 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock. I tried adjusting the tension but still had problems. After falling over again in a panic stop I removed those pedals (and the cleats from my shoes) and went back to toe-clips. I don't wear shoes with cleats unless I'm going on a long ride. I have a pair of shoes that are very much like the bicycling touring shoes of the 1980's and wear those shoes most of the time.

A few years back I crashed and my head bounced off the payment. I was wearing a helmet and posted on this newsgroup that I was glad that I was wearing my helmet that time. Frank then posted that if I had NOT been wearing a helmet then my head would NOT have hit the pavement.

Frank is simply rabidly anti-helmet.

Cheers

On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:59:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
>involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
>that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
>I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
>
>But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
>friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
>well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
>
>I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
>where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
>with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
>husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
>unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>
>He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
>
>As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
>because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
>wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
>though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
>motorists who die of brain injury.)
>
>My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
>zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
>certification test.

But Frank, from memory I have fallen over twice, once with toe clips
and straps and once with clipless. In the first case I wasn't wearing
a helmet and in the second I was... and in neither case did my head
hit the ground.

So, at least based on my experience, whether your friend was, or was
not, wearing a helmet is really immaterial.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/6/2022 5:26 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:15:23 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/6/2022 3:04 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:13:53 PM UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
>>>>> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
>>>>> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
>>>>> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
>>>>> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
>>>>>
>>>>> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
>>>>> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
>>>>> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
>>>>> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
>>>>> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
>>>>> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
>>>>> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>>>>>
>>>>> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
>>>>>
>>>>> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
>>>>> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
>>>>> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
>>>>> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
>>>>> motorists who die of brain injury.)
>>>>>
>>>>> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
>>>>> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
>>>>> certification test.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>> A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird....You know about statistics, no?
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>> +1
>>> Way to lose sight of the bigger issue, Frank.
>> My friend died from a very minor fall despite the universally touted
>> protection of the "always wear it!" magic hat.
>>
>> I'm not allowed to say the magic didn't work?
>>
>> This does look like religious dogma to me. Every "my helmet saved my
>> life!" story is blessed. But "the helmet failed him" story must be
>> condemned.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Would he have been better of without a helmet? Never mind.

We don't know.

Helmeted riders are significantly over-represented in emergency rooms.
That is, the percentage of ER-treated riders who say they were wearing a
helmet is always much higher than the observed percentage of helmeted
riders in the population.

Some people have reasonably discussed possible reasons for this
discrepancy - not that I expect that to happen here.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/6/2022 5:20 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Lou Holtman wrote:
>> Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
>>> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
>>> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
>>> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
>>> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle
>>> crashes.
>>>
>>> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
>>> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
>>> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
>>>
>>> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
>>> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
>>> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
>>> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
>>> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>>>
>>> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
>
> Well, who really knows?  Had your other, ex-cycling club, friend died
> because of misapplied and botched respirator therapy, the hospital would
> have claimed C*vid to be the cause of death.  Any good news from him,
> Frank?

As I probably stated, he now lives a couple states away, so I get news
only rarely. But from what I've heard, he has recovered well and is
riding again, so that news is good indeed. I don't know if he's riding
at the same level; he used to be quite fast.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/6/2022 6:18 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> A few years back I crashed and my head bounced off the payment. I was wearing a helmet and posted on this newsgroup that I was glad that I was wearing my helmet that time. Frank then posted that if I had NOT been wearing a helmet then my head would NOT have hit the pavement.

<sigh> No, Sir, you're wrong. Don't emulate Tom. Quote what I said,
after first reading it carefully. Don't rely on your memory.

I made no proclamations about your specific incident, but I did note
that many cases of a helmet hitting would have been near misses or mild
impacts with a bare head.

This should be obvious by simple geometry, since a helmet is
significantly larger than a bare head. If you add considerations of
reflexes, neck strength as influenced by evolution, etc. it should be
even more obvious.

Despite that, we have countless stories saying "My helmet was damaged! I
would have died without it!" That's no more logical than saying "I
scuffed my shoe. If I'd worn sandals I'd be on crutches."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 6 May 2022 16:15:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/6/2022 3:04 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:13:53 PM UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
>>>> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
>>>> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
>>>> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
>>>> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
>>>>
>>>> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
>>>> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
>>>> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
>>>>
>>>> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
>>>> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
>>>> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
>>>> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
>>>> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>>>>
>>>> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
>>>>
>>>> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
>>>> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
>>>> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
>>>> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
>>>> motorists who die of brain injury.)
>>>>
>>>> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
>>>> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
>>>> certification test.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>> A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird....You know about statistics, no?
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>> +1
>> Way to lose sight of the bigger issue, Frank.
>
>My friend died from a very minor fall despite the universally touted
>protection of the "always wear it!" magic hat.
>
>I'm not allowed to say the magic didn't work?
>
>This does look like religious dogma to me. Every "my helmet saved my
>life!" story is blessed. But "the helmet failed him" story must be
>condemned.

And equally true, I fell over twice because I couldn't get my foot off
the pedal - to clips and straps and clipless pedals, and twice I
crashed severely enough to break bones - ribs and pelvis, and in none
of the crashed did my head hit the ground, no scrapes on my head and
no marks on the helmets.

So perhaps it wasn't the helmet. Perhaps you friend simply didn't know
how to fall off a bicycle. Which, I might remark, makes as much sense
as your usual helmet arguments.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 6 May 2022 19:42:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/6/2022 5:26 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:15:23 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 5/6/2022 3:04 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:13:53 PM UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
>>>>>> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
>>>>>> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
>>>>>> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
>>>>>> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
>>>>>> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
>>>>>> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
>>>>>> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
>>>>>> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
>>>>>> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
>>>>>> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
>>>>>> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
>>>>>> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
>>>>>> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
>>>>>> motorists who die of brain injury.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
>>>>>> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
>>>>>> certification test.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>> A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird....You know about statistics, no?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>> Way to lose sight of the bigger issue, Frank.
>>> My friend died from a very minor fall despite the universally touted
>>> protection of the "always wear it!" magic hat.
>>>
>>> I'm not allowed to say the magic didn't work?
>>>
>>> This does look like religious dogma to me. Every "my helmet saved my
>>> life!" story is blessed. But "the helmet failed him" story must be
>>> condemned.
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> Would he have been better of without a helmet? Never mind.
>
>We don't know.
>
>Helmeted riders are significantly over-represented in emergency rooms.
>That is, the percentage of ER-treated riders who say they were wearing a
>helmet is always much higher than the observed percentage of helmeted
>riders in the population.
>
>Some people have reasonably discussed possible reasons for this
>discrepancy - not that I expect that to happen here.

Well, like most "surveys" the numbers of helmeted riders treated in
emergency clinics is, at best, less then informative. To provide an
accurate assessment of the value of helmets one would have to know the
total number of cyclists on a given day, how many fell over, how many
were injured sufficiently to actually require medical assistance, how
many were wearing helmets at the time of the crash, how many crashed
without helmets, and probably other data that I've forgotten to add.

But like most "surveys" it does attempt to prove a point... that
helmets are beneficial.

But equally the installation of tiny, always on, lights on bicycles
was demonstrated, in the Odense study, to reduce the numbers of single
vehicle bicycle crashes, although this "fact" was ignored by the bike
light company that sponsored the study (:-)

What I find interesting about bike helmets is the very low standards
that they are tested at.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 1:58:24 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/6/2022 2:42 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:13:53 p.m. UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
> >>> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
> >>> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
> >>> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
> >>> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
> >>>
> >>> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
> >>> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
> >>> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
> >>>
> >>> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
> >>> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
> >>> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
> >>> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
> >>> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
> >>>
> >>> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
> >>>
> >>> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
> >>> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
> >>> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
> >>> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
> >>> motorists who die of brain injury.)
> >>>
> >>> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
> >>> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
> >>> certification test.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> - Frank Krygowski
> >> A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird.....You know about statistics, no?
> >>
> >> Lou
> >
> > Frank is vehemently opposed to helmets for bicyclists. Thus he denigrates both the helmet and t he bicyclist for wearing one.
> Please try to be honest. I don't denigrate bicyclists for wearing
> helmets. Most of the people I ride with wear them almost always, and
> I've never denigrated any of them for that reason. That's despite some
> of them being very rude to me about my personal choice.
>
> I do denigrate the industry that has promoted this scam for decades, and
> the "safety" people who claim bicyclists MUST wear a helmet every time
> they ride. I denigrate those who emphasize every _cyclist_ brain injury
> death, especially if the cyclist did not wear a helmet, but who ignore
> the countless more brain injury deaths of pedestrians, motorists and
> people just walking around their houses - people who are never subjected
> to helmet shame.
>
> About the helmets: Why is it that actual facts about the truly low level
> of their actual protection levels are treated as objectionable? Why is
> it that anything questioning the "always wear a helmet" dogma is
> considered heretical? Are they _really_ religious talismans that must
> always be venerated, never questioned?
>
> Oh, and I will admit, I'm not fond of people distorting my views in this
> forum. That behavior deserves denigration. Again, please try to be honest..
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

People in car accidents wearing seatbelts die. People in car accidents with airbags die. I'd still bet both federally mandated safety devices help reduce the number of deaths and injuries. But no safety device provides 100% protection. The articles discussing crashes I have read on the internet or in newspapers usually mention whether seatbelts were used and whether the airbag went off. But not always. I can't really notice any bias one way or the other. Its probably more dependent on which author writes the article.

On 5/6/2022 8:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 6 May 2022 16:15:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 5/6/2022 3:04 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:13:53 PM UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
>>>>> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
>>>>> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
>>>>> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
>>>>> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
>>>>>
>>>>> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
>>>>> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
>>>>> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
>>>>> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
>>>>> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
>>>>> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
>>>>> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>>>>>
>>>>> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
>>>>>
>>>>> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
>>>>> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
>>>>> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
>>>>> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
>>>>> motorists who die of brain injury.)
>>>>>
>>>>> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
>>>>> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
>>>>> certification test.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>> A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird....You know about statistics, no?
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>> +1
>>> Way to lose sight of the bigger issue, Frank.
>>
>> My friend died from a very minor fall despite the universally touted
>> protection of the "always wear it!" magic hat.
>>
>> I'm not allowed to say the magic didn't work?
>>
>> This does look like religious dogma to me. Every "my helmet saved my
>> life!" story is blessed. But "the helmet failed him" story must be
>> condemned.
>
> And equally true, I fell over twice because I couldn't get my foot off
> the pedal - to clips and straps and clipless pedals, and twice I
> crashed severely enough to break bones - ribs and pelvis, and in none
> of the crashed did my head hit the ground, no scrapes on my head and
> no marks on the helmets.
>
> So perhaps it wasn't the helmet. Perhaps you friend simply didn't know
> how to fall off a bicycle.

Perhaps 20 years ago when I was still active as a League of American
Bicyclists Cycling Instructor, that organization gave serious
consideration to adding a higher level class, one which would include
training on how to fall as safely as possible. IIRC the exercises were
to take place on a grassy surface. That proposal was eventually dropped.

I've always preferred not to fall in the first place. Mountain biking
being what it is, I did have quite a few falls while doing that. Never
an injury, though.

> Which, I might remark, makes as much sense
> as your usual helmet arguments.

I'd be very surprised if you could accurately and honestly summarize my
views on helmets.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:21:02 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Lou Holtman wrote:
> > Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
> >> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
> >> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
> >> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
> >> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
> >>
> >> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
> >> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
> >> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
> >>
> >> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
> >> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
> >> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
> >> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
> >> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
> >>
> >> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
> Well, who really knows? Had your other, ex-cycling club, friend died
> because of misapplied and botched respirator therapy, the hospital would
> have claimed C*vid to be the cause of death. Any good news from him, Frank?
> >> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
> >> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
> >> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
> >> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
> >> motorists who die of brain injury.)
> >>
> >> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
> >> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
> >> certification test.
> "Heureka, Frank was riiighT!" should have been the unfortunate accident
> victim's noble last words -- but see, Frank, few friends are that
> considerate!
> > A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird.....You know about statistics, no?
> What statistic, Lou? I remember informal "Wellgo accident" and "loose
> cleat screws" statistics I won't elaborate on. But I'd certainly be
> interested about which combination of pedals, cleats, shoes were used,
> an what kind of trouble had earlier been going on with the pedal.

I wrote a paper showing that helmets had no general effect. But it did not prove that they did not have any effect at all. Most fatalities are from car strikes and not falling over in a mild fall. So despite the statistics, I have always suggested that people use them. I prefer that Frank not wear a helmet so that a minor fall might kill him as well.

I have also related that the Bontrager Wave Cell helmet is actually designed to reduce head blows to a manageable level and that the shape of the helmet which is not exactly the prettiest thing in the world is designed to extend coverage over the forehead, one of the places most likely to cause concussion if hit.

So how many people here have actually changed over to an uglier helmet? I would bet "none" since a helmet isn't a protective device to most people but rather a fashion article.

On 5/6/2022 11:53 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> People in car accidents wearing seatbelts die. People in car accidents with airbags die. I'd still bet both federally mandated safety devices help reduce the number of deaths and injuries. But no safety device provides 100% protection. The articles discussing crashes I have read on the internet or in newspapers usually mention whether seatbelts were used and whether the airbag went off. But not always. I can't really notice any bias one way or the other. Its probably more dependent on which author writes the article.

Here's the certification test for seat belts and airbags:
https://youtu.be/n8vf9EJBBfw?t=24
A realistic, instrumented crash test dummy is belted into the car being
tested. The car is run into a solid wall at about 35 mph. Sensors and
other devices record the effect on the dummy. It's very realistic.

Here's the certification test for a bike helmet: A model of a
decapitated human head - no body attached - is dropped about six feet
onto a solid surface. It hits at about 14 mph. Linear acceleration of
the headform is measured. Rotational acceleration - the actual cause of
most crash trauma in the brain - is not even measured.

The helmet test standard is ridiculously lenient, and was criticized as
such as soon as it was proposed. The standard writer's defense was "This
is all a helmet can do: Protect someone from a simple topple."

One of my points in my posting was that my friend's helmet failed even
that minimal level of protection. Yet cyclists are told helmets are SO
protective that they should NEVER ride without one.

It is a scam.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/6/2022 8:56 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 6 May 2022 19:42:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Helmeted riders are significantly over-represented in emergency rooms.
>> That is, the percentage of ER-treated riders who say they were wearing a
>> helmet is always much higher than the observed percentage of helmeted
>> riders in the population.
>>
>> Some people have reasonably discussed possible reasons for this
>> discrepancy - not that I expect that to happen here.
>
> Well, like most "surveys" the numbers of helmeted riders treated in
> emergency clinics is, at best, less then informative. To provide an
> accurate assessment of the value of helmets one would have to know the
> total number of cyclists on a given day, how many fell over, how many
> were injured sufficiently to actually require medical assistance, how
> many were wearing helmets at the time of the crash, how many crashed
> without helmets, and probably other data that I've forgotten to add.

Well, the over representation of helmeted riders at ERs is easy enough
to document, if one knows where to look. The initial significance of
that fact was related to the most influential (and now most notorious)
helmet promotion paper, by Thompson & Rivara in 1989. That was the
source of the astonishing and never yet corroborated claim that helmets
prevent 85% of head injuries.

IIRC, it was Dr. Dorothy Robinson (PhD statistics researcher) who
obtained T&R's data set and pointed out the severe weaknesses in that
study. Among them was the fact that about 21% of those kids treated in
ER had worn helmets; but contemporary street surveys by the same team of
helmet promoters had noted that only about 3% of kids in the area were
wearing helmets. Helmeted kids were about seven times as likely to be
taken to ER as unhelmeted kids. That fact alone was enough to nullify
the "85%" claim. (If you're seven times as likely to go to ER but then
seven times less likely to then be found with a head injury, it's pretty
much a wash.)

When similar data has been available, the same fact has emerged,
although with not such a high magnitude. That is, helmeted cyclists are
regularly found to be over represented in ER cases.

Again, we can discuss the potential reasons and implications for this
discrepancy. But it should make clear that "just wear a helmet" is
grossly simplistic advice.
> What I find interesting about bike helmets is the very low standards
> that they are tested at.

I'll also mention, as I have before, that the more sophisticated and
expensive one's helmet, the more likely it has been designed to just
barely meet even those very low standards. The entire design process is
slanted toward removing weight and increasing ventilation while still
_barely_ passing the ludicrous certification test.

(Perhaps the "wavecell" helmet that's seduced Tom is different. But I've
not seen any real world data indicating it's significantly better than
standard styofoam.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 7 May 2022 09:45:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/6/2022 8:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 16:15:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/6/2022 3:04 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:13:53 PM UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
>>>>>> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
>>>>>> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
>>>>>> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
>>>>>> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
>>>>>> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
>>>>>> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
>>>>>> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
>>>>>> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
>>>>>> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
>>>>>> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
>>>>>> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
>>>>>> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
>>>>>> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
>>>>>> motorists who die of brain injury.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
>>>>>> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
>>>>>> certification test.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>> A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird....You know about statistics, no?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>> Way to lose sight of the bigger issue, Frank.
>>>
>>> My friend died from a very minor fall despite the universally touted
>>> protection of the "always wear it!" magic hat.
>>>
>>> I'm not allowed to say the magic didn't work?
>>>
>>> This does look like religious dogma to me. Every "my helmet saved my
>>> life!" story is blessed. But "the helmet failed him" story must be
>>> condemned.
>>
>> And equally true, I fell over twice because I couldn't get my foot off
>> the pedal - to clips and straps and clipless pedals, and twice I
>> crashed severely enough to break bones - ribs and pelvis, and in none
>> of the crashed did my head hit the ground, no scrapes on my head and
>> no marks on the helmets.
>>
>> So perhaps it wasn't the helmet. Perhaps you friend simply didn't know
>> how to fall off a bicycle.
>
>Perhaps 20 years ago when I was still active as a League of American
>Bicyclists Cycling Instructor, that organization gave serious
>consideration to adding a higher level class, one which would include
>training on how to fall as safely as possible. IIRC the exercises were
>to take place on a grassy surface. That proposal was eventually dropped.
>
>I've always preferred not to fall in the first place. Mountain biking
>being what it is, I did have quite a few falls while doing that. Never
>an injury, though.
>
>> Which, I might remark, makes as much sense
>> as your usual helmet arguments.
>
>I'd be very surprised if you could accurately and honestly summarize my
>views on helmets.

Well, I admit to being a bit, well, sarcastic with my comment.
"Perhaps he didn't know how to fall" but your view on helmets, as
espoused here is "They ain't no good!"

You disparage reports of helmets and visits to emergency clinics and
go on and on, yet you offer no proof that bicycle helmets do not help
in preventing injures.

You are exhibiting the same fallacies that Tommy does, loud cry's of
anguish with no proof what so ever.

So get with it and produce some statistics, something like, "In 2019
bicycle helmets prevented no head injuries what so ever!" With, of
course, evidence to prove it.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 7 May 2022 07:14:36 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:21:02 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>> Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > Op vrijdag 6 mei 2022 om 18:59:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
>> >> I've been an avid cyclist for nearly 50 years. I've been heavily
>> >> involved in a fairly large bike club for over 40 of those years. During
>> >> that time I had two friends who died of heart attacks while riding, and
>> >> I've had eight friends or acquaintances who died in motor vehicle crashes.
>> >>
>> >> But despite knowing and riding with hundreds of people, I've never had a
>> >> friend die from a bike crash. Until now. He was a fellow club member as
>> >> well as a colleague from work, who retired before I did.
>> >>
>> >> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
>> >> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
>> >> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
>> >> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
>> >> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>> >>
>> >> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
>> Well, who really knows? Had your other, ex-cycling club, friend died
>> because of misapplied and botched respirator therapy, the hospital would
>> have claimed C*vid to be the cause of death. Any good news from him, Frank?
>> >> As usual, the information regarding his death does not mention a helmet,
>> >> because he was wearing one. (If he had _not_ worn one, "He was not
>> >> wearing a helmet" would have been in all the publicity. That's true even
>> >> though helmets are never mentioned for the many more pedestrians or
>> >> motorists who die of brain injury.)
>> >>
>> >> My friend's helmet failed to protect him from the simplest type of
>> >> zero-speed fall, the one that supposedly informed the official helmet
>> >> certification test.
>> "Heureka, Frank was riiighT!" should have been the unfortunate accident
>> victim's noble last words -- but see, Frank, few friends are that
>> considerate!
>> > A friend died and you babbling about helmets to make what point? Weird....You know about statistics, no?
>> What statistic, Lou? I remember informal "Wellgo accident" and "loose
>> cleat screws" statistics I won't elaborate on. But I'd certainly be
>> interested about which combination of pedals, cleats, shoes were used,
>> an what kind of trouble had earlier been going on with the pedal.
>
>I wrote a paper showing that helmets had no general effect. But it did not prove that they did not have any effect at all. Most fatalities are from car strikes and not falling over in a mild fall. So despite the statistics, I have always suggested that people use them. I prefer that Frank not wear a helmet so that a minor fall might kill him as well.
>
>I have also related that the Bontrager Wave Cell helmet is actually designed to reduce head blows to a manageable level and that the shape of the helmet which is not exactly the prettiest thing in the world is designed to extend coverage over the forehead, one of the places most likely to cause concussion if hit.
>
>So how many people here have actually changed over to an uglier helmet? I would bet "none" since a helmet isn't a protective device to most people but rather a fashion article.

"I wrote a paper showing...."???

Tommy wrote a paper? I remind the reader that this is the chap that
had a problem with sticking a seat post in the seat tube.... sticking
a stick in a hole.... something the average 4 year old child can
accomplish.
--
Cheers,

John B.