On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:46:09 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/21/2022 5:42 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>>>>>> unhelpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>>>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>>>> "in service newspaper").
>>>>
>>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>>>> as illegal immigrants.
>>>>
>>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>>>>
>>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>>>>
>>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>>> first engagement.
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
>> Defeat China? I am far more concerned about stopping the deaths from Covid-19. And eliminating the economic effects Covid has caused throughout the world. I am aware Covid started in China. And spread worldwide. Was it intentional? Maybe, maybe not. I'd go for the not. The leaders in China have some competent advisors. They would tell the leaders that destroying the world's economy is bad for China. No matter how much harm it does to everyone else, China will also suffer. China is interconnected with the world economically. Very few spouses commit spousal murder by pulling the spouse into a closet and setting off a hand grenade. Its not much benefit to kill yourself.
>>
>> As far as first engagement. Hopefully the world has learned from Covid. And will be better prepared for the next time something similar happens. But I'm not too hopeful a large portion of the USA has learned anything at all. So we would likely have a repeat exactly as bad the next time around. As for engaging China on other fronts. Such as the militarization of the South China Sea, and human rights, and trading, those conflicts will continue. And I am hopeful a good outcome can be achieved. Good for both sides and everyone.
>>
>> Unlike the Republicans who assume everything is a zero sum game. If you gain, then I must lose, So that is evil. I believe we all can gain together. Likely different amounts of gain. But all pluses for everyone. No one has to lose.
>>
>
>You have that backwards IMHO.
>
>Statists believe in the socialist version of 'sharing',
>i.e., forcibly redistributing limited resources all while
>suppressing innovation, efficiency and growth. Classic
>'zero-sum' outlook.
>
>Classic liberals (now called conservatives) are more with Mr
>Deng, "Let a thousand flowers bloom". Liberty with less
>restriction makes everyone more prosperous and life more
>meaningful for most.

And while I don't know this from experience I am told that opening a
business in China is easier, with far fewer restriction, then doing
the same in the U.S.
--
Cheers,

John B.