On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:44:52 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>On 2022-05-22 12:42 p.m., Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>
>> The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
>> in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
>> site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
>>
>> Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
>> imply any particular etiology.
>>
>
>Like many words in English, there are usages for a word that used to be
>narrowly defined that expand that definition to other areas.
>
>"Epidemic" is just such a word.

Well, it was when perverted to characterize obesity, but perhaps our
recent experience with an /actual/ epidemic will restore the original
meaning.

This thread is spilling around all over. Someone claims that
"epidemic" is Established Medical Terminology and therefor
(presumably) Absolute Truth, while other claim that, since obesity
cannot be an epidemic, it also cannot be endemic.

And then there are the /real/ nutters, who get frantic when anyone
questions Modern Medicine. After Modern Medicine's creation of the
opioid crisis, I would think that attitude was passe, but what do I
know?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>
>>> Obesity is an endemic condition.
>>
>>Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>
>>It is, however, a health problem.
>
>Tell that to the CDC. One of the reasons the plug got pulled on their
>efforts to research murder was that they were treating it as an
>infectious disease.

Cite required.

While there are non-CDC studies that looked at that hypothesis, there's
no evidence that the CDC studied the topic.

https://www.npr.org/2012/12/06/166600403/can-murder-be-tracked-like-an-infectious-disease
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418825.2012.732100

On Mon, 23 May 2022 23:19:25 -0400, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
wrote:

>On 23 May 2022, Paul S Person wrote
>(in article<q1cn8hh171pg65vcjk6c5pq6rg1379635p@4ax.com>):
>
>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >
>> > > And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>> > > epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>> > > epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>> > > bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>> > >
>> > > Obesity is an endemic condition.
>> >
>> > Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>> > nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>
>> I would agree with that, but the medical propaganda has claimed it was
>> an epidemic since at least the advent of BMI.
>>
>> In that context, "endemic" is, by far, more accurate, as the %
>> reported originally (33%) is the same as that reported two decades
>> later. When the earlier estimates were re-computed as 20% or so. As if
>> an increase in incidence of 10% over 20 years would make it an
>> epidemic.
>>
>> > It is, however, a health problem.
>>
>> Rather, it is a gold mine for improving the income of doctors, since
>> it is (trust me on this) /very/ hard to permanently lose weight. Even
>> diet and excercise (which do work, up to a point) have their limits.
>
>Hmm. I’ve lost over 50 kilos. It took me nearly a decade to do it, but I
>did it. I’ve maintained my target weight (110 kilos) for four years now.
>How did I do it? I ate less and exercised (mostly walked around) more. Losing
>the last 10 kilos was the hardest.

And, when I retired, I lost perhaps 40 pounds (if my weight had
actually reach 310 or so by then, I'm not sure) -- through diet and
exercise. In about six months.

Then things slowed down and, as I approached the weight I had when my
back gave out in 1984, some /very/ annoying effects began to appear.
Such is life.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:51:04 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>On 2022-05-23 9:08 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>
>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>>
>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition.
>>>
>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>
>> I would agree with that, but the medical propaganda has claimed it was
>> an epidemic since at least the advent of BMI.
>>
>> In that context, "endemic" is, by far, more accurate, as the %
>> reported originally (33%) is the same as that reported two decades
>> later. When the earlier estimates were re-computed as 20% or so. As if
>> an increase in incidence of 10% over 20 years would make it an
>> epidemic.
>>
>>> It is, however, a health problem.
>>
>> Rather, it is a gold mine for improving the income of doctors, since
>> it is (trust me on this) /very/ hard to permanently lose weight. Even
>> diet and excercise (which do work, up to a point) have their limits.
>
>No.
>
>It is only "hard" in that it forces people to make choices that they
>don't want to make.
>
>There may be a small percentage of the population for whom weight loss
>is genuinely difficult for metabolic reasons, but most people simply
>don't want to do what is required:
>
>Eat less and exercise more.

And the reason a demon never actually appears in the pentagram is
because you didn't chant the spell correctly. Or some other excuse.

You are engaging in, at best, magical thought.

And, at worst, totalitarian thinking ("if they did what I told them to
do, everything would be perfect").

But I will concede that attitude is everything. The attitude I found
most helpful was to /not/ obsess about weight, but instead to simply
adopt a proper diet and sufficient exercise. I "worry", IOW, about
diet and exercise for their own sake, and let my weight take care of
itself.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:47:21 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>On 2022-05-22 5:46 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>>> <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>>>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>>>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>>>>> mutual hostility.
>>>> I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>>>
>>> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>>
>> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
>> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
>> crisis or the like.
>
>You are committing a logical fallacy there...
>
>>
>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>
>> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
>> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
>>
>> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
>> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
>> wants to admit.
>
>You think smoking isn't incredibly harmful?
>
>>
>>> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>>> sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>>> it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>>> for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>>> arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>>> composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>>> obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>>> cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>>
>> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
>> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
>> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
>> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
>
>Yes. And when your life is going to be much shorter due to the nature of
>the society in which you live, obesity may not be worth addressing.
>
>We don't live in such a society.

Perhaps, as there appears to be some conclusion, that the societies
/I/ was thinking of in noting that obesity was a positive trait
because it implied affluence was our /own/ 100 years ago and the
England of, say, Dickens and before.

Not Pacific Islanders. Not "them" -- "us".
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:44:52 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2022-05-22 12:42 p.m., Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>> On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>>
>>> The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
>>> in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
>>> site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
>>>
>>> Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
>>> imply any particular etiology.
>>>
>>
>>Like many words in English, there are usages for a word that used to be
>>narrowly defined that expand that definition to other areas.
>>
>>"Epidemic" is just such a word.
>
>Well, it was when perverted to characterize obesity, but perhaps our
>recent experience with an /actual/ epidemic will restore the original
>meaning.

Next you'll go after those misusing 'decimate', right?

On Tue, 24 May 2022 09:01:36 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:51:04 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2022-05-23 9:08 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>>>
>>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition.
>>>>
>>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>>
>>> I would agree with that, but the medical propaganda has claimed it was
>>> an epidemic since at least the advent of BMI.
>>>
>>> In that context, "endemic" is, by far, more accurate, as the %
>>> reported originally (33%) is the same as that reported two decades
>>> later. When the earlier estimates were re-computed as 20% or so. As if
>>> an increase in incidence of 10% over 20 years would make it an
>>> epidemic.
>>>
>>>> It is, however, a health problem.
>>>
>>> Rather, it is a gold mine for improving the income of doctors, since
>>> it is (trust me on this) /very/ hard to permanently lose weight. Even
>>> diet and excercise (which do work, up to a point) have their limits.
>>
>>No.
>>
>>It is only "hard" in that it forces people to make choices that they
>>don't want to make.
>>
>>There may be a small percentage of the population for whom weight loss
>>is genuinely difficult for metabolic reasons, but most people simply
>>don't want to do what is required:
>>
>>Eat less and exercise more.
>
>And the reason a demon never actually appears in the pentagram is
>because you didn't chant the spell correctly. Or some other excuse.
>
>You are engaging in, at best, magical thought.
>
>And, at worst, totalitarian thinking ("if they did what I told them to
>do, everything would be perfect").
>
>But I will concede that attitude is everything. The attitude I found
>most helpful was to /not/ obsess about weight, but instead to simply
>adopt a proper diet and sufficient exercise. I "worry", IOW, about
>diet and exercise for their own sake, and let my weight take care of
>itself.

I used to walk several miles several times a week. I found my
endurance getting shorter and shorter, to the point that I was beat
just walking to the end of the block. I told my doctor. He had no
comment. Finally identified the cause. Decided to do That Which Is
Forbidden and take a med holiday. Turned out it was one of the blood
pressure meds he had me on. Off the meds my endurance is about where
I expected it to be.

In (not particularly active) search of a new doctor.

But diet and exercise didn't ever stick for me. It's going to be
interesting to see if Lady N does.

On Tue, 24 May 2022 09:05:42 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:47:21 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2022-05-22 5:46 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>>>> <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>>>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>>>>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>>>>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>>>>>> mutual hostility.
>>>>> I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>>>>
>>>> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>>>
>>> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
>>> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
>>> crisis or the like.
>>
>>You are committing a logical fallacy there...
>>
>>>
>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>
>>> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
>>> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
>>>
>>> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
>>> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
>>> wants to admit.
>>
>>You think smoking isn't incredibly harmful?
>>
>>>
>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>>>> sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>>>> it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>>>> for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>>>> arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>>>> composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>>>> obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>>>> cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>>>
>>> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
>>> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
>>> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
>>> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
>>
>>Yes. And when your life is going to be much shorter due to the nature of
>>the society in which you live, obesity may not be worth addressing.
>>
>>We don't live in such a society.
>
>Perhaps, as there appears to be some conclusion, that the societies
>/I/ was thinking of in noting that obesity was a positive trait
>because it implied affluence was our /own/ 100 years ago and the
>England of, say, Dickens and before.

A time when gout was apparently a commonplace affliction, at least
among the well-off.

>Not Pacific Islanders. Not "them" -- "us".

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 7:05:26 PM UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, 24 May 2022 09:05:42 -0700, Paul S Person
> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:47:21 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On 2022-05-22 5:46 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
> >>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
> >>>> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
> >>>>>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
> >>>>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
> >>>>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
> >>>>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
> >>>>>> mutual hostility.
> >>>>> I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
> >>>>
> >>>> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
> >>>
> >>> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
> >>> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
> >>> crisis or the like.
> >>
> >>You are committing a logical fallacy there...
> >>
> >>>
> >>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
> >>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
> >>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
> >>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
> >>>
> >>> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
> >>> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
> >>>
> >>> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
> >>> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
> >>> wants to admit.
> >>
> >>You think smoking isn't incredibly harmful?
> >>
> >>>
> >>>> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
> >>>> sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
> >>>> it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
> >>>> for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
> >>>> arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
> >>>> composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
> >>>> obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
> >>>> cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
> >>>
> >>> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
> >>> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
> >>> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
> >>> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
> >>
> >>Yes. And when your life is going to be much shorter due to the nature of
> >>the society in which you live, obesity may not be worth addressing.
> >>
> >>We don't live in such a society.
> >
> >Perhaps, as there appears to be some conclusion, that the societies
> >/I/ was thinking of in noting that obesity was a positive trait
> >because it implied affluence was our /own/ 100 years ago and the
> >England of, say, Dickens and before.
> A time when gout was apparently a commonplace affliction, at least
> among the well-off.
> >Not Pacific Islanders. Not "them" -- "us".

Gout has not gone away, although there are now drugs for it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gout

Gout affects about 1 to 2% of adults in the developed world at some point in their lives.[8] It has become more common in recent decades.[4] This is believed to be due to increasing risk factors in the population, such as metabolic syndrome, longer life expectancy, and changes in diet.[8] Older males are most commonly affected.[4] Gout was historically known as "the disease of kings" or "rich man's disease".[8][16] It has been recognized at least since the time of the ancient Egyptians.[8]

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 2:17:33 PM UTC-4, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 7:05:26 PM UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
> > On Tue, 24 May 2022 09:05:42 -0700, Paul S Person
> > <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > >On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:47:21 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>On 2022-05-22 5:46 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> > >>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
> > >>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
> > >>>> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
> > >>>>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
> > >>>>>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
> > >>>>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
> > >>>>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
> > >>>>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
> > >>>>>> mutual hostility.
> > >>>>> I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
> > >>>
> > >>> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
> > >>> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
> > >>> crisis or the like.
> > >>
> > >>You are committing a logical fallacy there...
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
> > >>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
> > >>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
> > >>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
> > >>>
> > >>> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
> > >>> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
> > >>>
> > >>> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
> > >>> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
> > >>> wants to admit.
> > >>
> > >>You think smoking isn't incredibly harmful?
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
> > >>>> sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
> > >>>> it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
> > >>>> for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
> > >>>> arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
> > >>>> composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
> > >>>> obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
> > >>>> cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
> > >>>
> > >>> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
> > >>> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
> > >>> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
> > >>> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
> > >>
> > >>Yes. And when your life is going to be much shorter due to the nature of
> > >>the society in which you live, obesity may not be worth addressing.
> > >>
> > >>We don't live in such a society.
> > >
> > >Perhaps, as there appears to be some conclusion, that the societies
> > >/I/ was thinking of in noting that obesity was a positive trait
> > >because it implied affluence was our /own/ 100 years ago and the
> > >England of, say, Dickens and before.
> > A time when gout was apparently a commonplace affliction, at least
> > among the well-off.
> > >Not Pacific Islanders. Not "them" -- "us".
> Gout has not gone away, although there are now drugs for it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gout
>
> Gout affects about 1 to 2% of adults in the developed world at some point in their lives.[8] It has become more common in recent decades.[4] This is believed to be due to increasing risk factors in the population, such as metabolic syndrome, longer life expectancy, and changes in diet.[8] Older males are most commonly affected.[4] Gout was historically known as "the disease of kings" or "rich man's disease".[8][16] It has been recognized at least since the time of the ancient Egyptians.[8]

I've had it a couple times. It is Not Fun .

Fortunately, there are effective drug treatments.

pt

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 12:54:37 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
> >On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:44:52 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On 2022-05-22 12:42 p.m., Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> >>> On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
> >>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
> >>>
> >>> The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
> >>> in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
> >>> site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
> >>>
> >>> Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
> >>> imply any particular etiology.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Like many words in English, there are usages for a word that used to be
> >>narrowly defined that expand that definition to other areas.
> >>
> >>"Epidemic" is just such a word.
> >
> >Well, it was when perverted to characterize obesity, but perhaps our
> >recent experience with an /actual/ epidemic will restore the original
> >meaning.
> Next you'll go after those misusing 'decimate', right?

Only a tenth of them. :)

--
Kevin R

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:30:10 PM UTC-6, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> > Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
> > nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.

> The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
> in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
> site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
>
> Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
> imply any particular etiology.

It certainly is true that actual medical doctors have indeed referred to obesity
as an epidemic in real life. And they're the experts! Doesn't that settle the
question?

If you search around, though, you will find that some people who are overweight
aren't recieving adequate medical care because doctors are too focused on the
fact that they're overweight. Doctors aren't perfect. So that a doctor who is strongly
motivated to increase public awareness of the menace of obesity might misuse the
English language in aid of his quest is _not_ utterly beyond the realm of
possibility.

In my opinion, language should be a tool for effective and accurate communication.
Not for propaganda, not for making people feel good.

A word that warns: an infectious disease is rampant, the fact that many people are
infected creates a large risk for everyone else - is a *useful* word. One that just says
X is a major health problem is less useful, as it doesn't describe as specifically what
kind of response is needed.

If you go back a few decades, you will find that when it was first attempted to describe
obesity or smoking as epidemics, the people doing so acknowledged that this was a
novel usage, requiring a new way of thinking about those health problems.

In my view, there is a very strong presumption that any "new" or "updated" meaning
for a word, which doesn't match the meaning already known to existing speakers of
the language, is just wrong. They won't understand it unless it's explained to them,
so it can cause confusion.

John Savard

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:49:28 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 24 May 2022 12:00:44 +1200, Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> <total nonsense snipped>
> <leaving nothing to respond to>

Well, he was only responding to Andrew McDowell anyways.

John Savard

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> And then there are the /real/ nutters, who get frantic when anyone
> questions Modern Medicine. After Modern Medicine's creation of the
> opioid crisis, I would think that attitude was passe, but what do I
> know?

After Trump fanatics, by "questioning Modern Medicine", exacerbated
the COVID-19 pandemic, I don't see the problem with the attitude you're
criticizing here.

John Savard

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 7:11:53 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:30:10 PM UTC-6, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> > On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> > > Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
> > > nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>
> > The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
> > in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
> > site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
> >
> > Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
> > imply any particular etiology.
> It certainly is true that actual medical doctors have indeed referred to obesity
> as an epidemic in real life. And they're the experts! Doesn't that settle the
> question?
>
> If you search around, though, you will find that some people who are overweight
> aren't recieving adequate medical care because doctors are too focused on the
> fact that they're overweight. Doctors aren't perfect. So that a doctor who is strongly
> motivated to increase public awareness of the menace of obesity might misuse the
> English language in aid of his quest is _not_ utterly beyond the realm of
> possibility.
>
> In my opinion, language should be a tool for effective and accurate communication.
> Not for propaganda, not for making people feel good.
>
> A word that warns: an infectious disease is rampant, the fact that many people are
> infected creates a large risk for everyone else - is a *useful* word. One that just says
> X is a major health problem is less useful, as it doesn't describe as specifically what
> kind of response is needed.
>
> If you go back a few decades, you will find that when it was first attempted to describe
> obesity or smoking as epidemics, the people doing so acknowledged that this was a
> novel usage, requiring a new way of thinking about those health problems.
>
> In my view, there is a very strong presumption that any "new" or "updated" meaning
> for a word, which doesn't match the meaning already known to existing speakers of
> the language, is just wrong. They won't understand it unless it's explained to them,
> so it can cause confusion.

Check this:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Smoking+epidemic%2C+obesity+epidemic&year_start=1940&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2CSmoking%20epidemic%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cobesity%20epidemic%3B%2Cc0

Or

https://tinyurl.com/yu22abyn

Also, delete the ',obesity epidemic' term and search just on smoking.

Tldnr: references to 'smoking epidemic' start to appear after WW2, and have now died off.

How ever, still popular references to 'obesity epidemic' make the former look like a rounding
error.

Pt

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 12:13:23 AM UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:49:28 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> > On Tue, 24 May 2022 12:00:44 +1200, Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >
> > <total nonsense snipped>
> > <leaving nothing to respond to>
> Well, he was only responding to Andrew McDowell anyways.
>
> John Savard
I think that we have successfully demonstrated that the part of the story that relies on a society not recognising the effects of diet and exercise on health is not unrealistic.

On Tue, 24 May 2022 15:53:29 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:42:58 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
>><naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>>
>>>The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
>>>in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
>>>site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
>>>
>>>Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
>>>imply any particular etiology.
>>
>>It /does/, however, imply that the problem moves swiftly through a
>>population. Obesity does not.
>
>Does it imply that?

Yes.

Swift spread is what distinguishes a flu epidemic from a normal flu
season. It is the /swiftness/ that overwhelms the medical system.

Even the retro-computed increase from 20% to 30% (a 50% increase) took
20 years. This is /not/ an epidemic. If we must pervert medical
terminology, it is an endemic condition.

Which doesn't make it somehow not a problem. But it does allow
recognition that the /reason/ it was called an "epidemic" is because
"epidemic" is a scare word. Like "shark".

And we will not be able to get a handle on it until we drop the "it's
all the fatties' fault" rhetoric and /treat/ it like a health problem
and not like a personal choice.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 24 May 2022 16:54:33 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:44:52 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2022-05-22 12:42 p.m., Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>>> On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>>>
>>>> The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
>>>> in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
>>>> site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
>>>>
>>>> Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
>>>> imply any particular etiology.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Like many words in English, there are usages for a word that used to be
>>>narrowly defined that expand that definition to other areas.
>>>
>>>"Epidemic" is just such a word.
>>
>>Well, it was when perverted to characterize obesity, but perhaps our
>>recent experience with an /actual/ epidemic will restore the original
>>meaning.
>
>Next you'll go after those misusing 'decimate', right?

I may have done that the last time the topic came up.

But perhaps I felt it was sufficiently attacked already.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 24 May 2022 16:14:40 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> And then there are the /real/ nutters, who get frantic when anyone
>> questions Modern Medicine. After Modern Medicine's creation of the
>> opioid crisis, I would think that attitude was passe, but what do I
>> know?
>
>After Trump fanatics, by "questioning Modern Medicine", exacerbated
>the COVID-19 pandemic, I don't see the problem with the attitude you're
>criticizing here.

1. They weren't questioning Modern Medicine so much as using Science
to guide policy in an area where the science /itself/ was uncertain
and so changed its recommendations frequently.

2. The opioid crisis showed the problem. We cannot /trust/ Modern
Medicine to behave properly any longer. Marcus Welby, MD, is long
gone.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 24 May 2022 14:02:55 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 24 May 2022 09:01:36 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:51:04 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2022-05-23 9:08 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>>>
>>>> I would agree with that, but the medical propaganda has claimed it was
>>>> an epidemic since at least the advent of BMI.
>>>>
>>>> In that context, "endemic" is, by far, more accurate, as the %
>>>> reported originally (33%) is the same as that reported two decades
>>>> later. When the earlier estimates were re-computed as 20% or so. As if
>>>> an increase in incidence of 10% over 20 years would make it an
>>>> epidemic.
>>>>
>>>>> It is, however, a health problem.
>>>>
>>>> Rather, it is a gold mine for improving the income of doctors, since
>>>> it is (trust me on this) /very/ hard to permanently lose weight. Even
>>>> diet and excercise (which do work, up to a point) have their limits.
>>>
>>>No.
>>>
>>>It is only "hard" in that it forces people to make choices that they
>>>don't want to make.
>>>
>>>There may be a small percentage of the population for whom weight loss
>>>is genuinely difficult for metabolic reasons, but most people simply
>>>don't want to do what is required:
>>>
>>>Eat less and exercise more.
>>
>>And the reason a demon never actually appears in the pentagram is
>>because you didn't chant the spell correctly. Or some other excuse.
>>
>>You are engaging in, at best, magical thought.
>>
>>And, at worst, totalitarian thinking ("if they did what I told them to
>>do, everything would be perfect").
>>
>>But I will concede that attitude is everything. The attitude I found
>>most helpful was to /not/ obsess about weight, but instead to simply
>>adopt a proper diet and sufficient exercise. I "worry", IOW, about
>>diet and exercise for their own sake, and let my weight take care of
>>itself.
>
>I used to walk several miles several times a week. I found my
>endurance getting shorter and shorter, to the point that I was beat
>just walking to the end of the block. I told my doctor. He had no
>comment. Finally identified the cause. Decided to do That Which Is
>Forbidden and take a med holiday. Turned out it was one of the blood
>pressure meds he had me on. Off the meds my endurance is about where
>I expected it to be.

If you tell your doctor, he can probably prescribe an additional
medication or two to take care of this "side effect".

>In (not particularly active) search of a new doctor.
>
>But diet and exercise didn't ever stick for me. It's going to be
>interesting to see if Lady N does.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 24 May 2022 11:17:31 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
<mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 7:05:26 PM UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 May 2022 09:05:42 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:47:21 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On 2022-05-22 5:46 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
>> >>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>> >>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>> >>>> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>> >>>>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>> >>>>>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>> >>>>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>> >>>>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>> >>>>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>> >>>>>> mutual hostility.
>> >>>>> I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>> >>>
>> >>> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
>> >>> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
>> >>> crisis or the like.
>> >>
>> >>You are committing a logical fallacy there...
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>> >>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>> >>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>> >>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>> >>>
>> >>> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
>> >>> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
>> >>>
>> >>> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
>> >>> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
>> >>> wants to admit.
>> >>
>> >>You think smoking isn't incredibly harmful?
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>> >>>> sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>> >>>> it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>> >>>> for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>> >>>> arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>> >>>> composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>> >>>> obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>> >>>> cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>> >>>
>> >>> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
>> >>> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
>> >>> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
>> >>> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
>> >>
>> >>Yes. And when your life is going to be much shorter due to the nature of
>> >>the society in which you live, obesity may not be worth addressing.
>> >>
>> >>We don't live in such a society.
>> >
>> >Perhaps, as there appears to be some conclusion, that the societies
>> >/I/ was thinking of in noting that obesity was a positive trait
>> >because it implied affluence was our /own/ 100 years ago and the
>> >England of, say, Dickens and before.
>> A time when gout was apparently a commonplace affliction, at least
>> among the well-off.
>> >Not Pacific Islanders. Not "them" -- "us".
>
>Gout has not gone away, although there are now drugs for it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gout
>
>Gout affects about 1 to 2% of adults in the developed world at some point in their lives.[8] It has become more common in recent decades.[4] This is believed to be due to increasing risk factors in the population, such as metabolic syndrome, longer life expectancy, and changes in diet.[8] Older males are most commonly affected.[4] Gout was historically known as "the disease of kings" or "rich man's disease".[8][16] It has been recognized at least since the time of the ancient Egyptians.[8]

Well, it's kind of hard to miss, being painful and all.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Tue, 24 May 2022 15:53:29 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>
>>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:42:58 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
>>><naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>>>
>>>>The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
>>>>in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
>>>>site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
>>>>
>>>>Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
>>>>imply any particular etiology.
>>>
>>>It /does/, however, imply that the problem moves swiftly through a
>>>population. Obesity does not.
>>
>>Does it imply that?
>
>Yes.
>
>Swift spread is what distinguishes a flu epidemic from a normal flu
>season. It is the /swiftness/ that overwhelms the medical system.
>
>Even the retro-computed increase from 20% to 30% (a 50% increase) took
>20 years. This is /not/ an epidemic. If we must pervert medical
>terminology, it is an endemic condition.

"When I use a word", Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone,
"it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

English isn't static.

On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:04:52 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Tue, 24 May 2022 16:14:40 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>> And then there are the /real/ nutters, who get frantic when anyone
>>> questions Modern Medicine. After Modern Medicine's creation of the
>>> opioid crisis, I would think that attitude was passe, but what do I
>>> know?
>>
>>After Trump fanatics, by "questioning Modern Medicine", exacerbated
>>the COVID-19 pandemic, I don't see the problem with the attitude you're
>>criticizing here.
>
>1. They weren't questioning Modern Medicine so much as using Science
>to guide policy in an area where the science /itself/ was uncertain
>and so changed its recommendations frequently.
>
>2. The opioid crisis showed the problem. We cannot /trust/ Modern
>Medicine to behave properly any longer. Marcus Welby, MD, is long
>gone.

There is a tendency to conflate science and scientists. In the long
run science doesn't lie. In the short run scientists lie like rugs.

On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:13:33 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Tue, 24 May 2022 14:02:55 -0400, J. Clarke
><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 24 May 2022 09:01:36 -0700, Paul S Person
>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:51:04 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2022-05-23 9:08 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>>>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>>>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>>>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>>>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would agree with that, but the medical propaganda has claimed it was
>>>>> an epidemic since at least the advent of BMI.
>>>>>
>>>>> In that context, "endemic" is, by far, more accurate, as the %
>>>>> reported originally (33%) is the same as that reported two decades
>>>>> later. When the earlier estimates were re-computed as 20% or so. As if
>>>>> an increase in incidence of 10% over 20 years would make it an
>>>>> epidemic.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It is, however, a health problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rather, it is a gold mine for improving the income of doctors, since
>>>>> it is (trust me on this) /very/ hard to permanently lose weight. Even
>>>>> diet and excercise (which do work, up to a point) have their limits.
>>>>
>>>>No.
>>>>
>>>>It is only "hard" in that it forces people to make choices that they
>>>>don't want to make.
>>>>
>>>>There may be a small percentage of the population for whom weight loss
>>>>is genuinely difficult for metabolic reasons, but most people simply
>>>>don't want to do what is required:
>>>>
>>>>Eat less and exercise more.
>>>
>>>And the reason a demon never actually appears in the pentagram is
>>>because you didn't chant the spell correctly. Or some other excuse.
>>>
>>>You are engaging in, at best, magical thought.
>>>
>>>And, at worst, totalitarian thinking ("if they did what I told them to
>>>do, everything would be perfect").
>>>
>>>But I will concede that attitude is everything. The attitude I found
>>>most helpful was to /not/ obsess about weight, but instead to simply
>>>adopt a proper diet and sufficient exercise. I "worry", IOW, about
>>>diet and exercise for their own sake, and let my weight take care of
>>>itself.
>>
>>I used to walk several miles several times a week. I found my
>>endurance getting shorter and shorter, to the point that I was beat
>>just walking to the end of the block. I told my doctor. He had no
>>comment. Finally identified the cause. Decided to do That Which Is
>>Forbidden and take a med holiday. Turned out it was one of the blood
>>pressure meds he had me on. Off the meds my endurance is about where
>>I expected it to be.
>
>If you tell your doctor, he can probably prescribe an additional
>medication or two to take care of this "side effect".

And likely cause two or three others.
>
>>In (not particularly active) search of a new doctor.
>>
>>But diet and exercise didn't ever stick for me. It's going to be
>>interesting to see if Lady N does.

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 6:20:39 PM UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:13:33 -0700, Paul S Person
> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 24 May 2022 14:02:55 -0400, J. Clarke
> ><jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Tue, 24 May 2022 09:01:36 -0700, Paul S Person
> >><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:51:04 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>On 2022-05-23 9:08 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> >>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> >>>>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
> >>>>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
> >>>>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
> >>>>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
> >>>>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would agree with that, but the medical propaganda has claimed it was
> >>>>> an epidemic since at least the advent of BMI.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In that context, "endemic" is, by far, more accurate, as the %
> >>>>> reported originally (33%) is the same as that reported two decades
> >>>>> later. When the earlier estimates were re-computed as 20% or so. As if
> >>>>> an increase in incidence of 10% over 20 years would make it an
> >>>>> epidemic.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> It is, however, a health problem.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rather, it is a gold mine for improving the income of doctors, since
> >>>>> it is (trust me on this) /very/ hard to permanently lose weight. Even
> >>>>> diet and excercise (which do work, up to a point) have their limits..
> >>>>
> >>>>No.
> >>>>
> >>>>It is only "hard" in that it forces people to make choices that they
> >>>>don't want to make.
> >>>>
> >>>>There may be a small percentage of the population for whom weight loss
> >>>>is genuinely difficult for metabolic reasons, but most people simply
> >>>>don't want to do what is required:
> >>>>
> >>>>Eat less and exercise more.
> >>>
> >>>And the reason a demon never actually appears in the pentagram is
> >>>because you didn't chant the spell correctly. Or some other excuse.
> >>>
> >>>You are engaging in, at best, magical thought.
> >>>
> >>>And, at worst, totalitarian thinking ("if they did what I told them to
> >>>do, everything would be perfect").
> >>>
> >>>But I will concede that attitude is everything. The attitude I found
> >>>most helpful was to /not/ obsess about weight, but instead to simply
> >>>adopt a proper diet and sufficient exercise. I "worry", IOW, about
> >>>diet and exercise for their own sake, and let my weight take care of
> >>>itself.
> >>
> >>I used to walk several miles several times a week. I found my
> >>endurance getting shorter and shorter, to the point that I was beat
> >>just walking to the end of the block. I told my doctor. He had no
> >>comment. Finally identified the cause. Decided to do That Which Is
> >>Forbidden and take a med holiday. Turned out it was one of the blood
> >>pressure meds he had me on. Off the meds my endurance is about where
> >>I expected it to be.
> >
> >If you tell your doctor, he can probably prescribe an additional
> >medication or two to take care of this "side effect".
> And likely cause two or three others.
> >
> >>In (not particularly active) search of a new doctor.
> >>
> >>But diet and exercise didn't ever stick for me. It's going to be
> >>interesting to see if Lady N does.
Balancing blood pressure with drugs is not easy, at least for the UK NHS. I am aware of somebody who was on blood pressure drugs for decades, and their health was up or down depending on how well the current trade-offs were working. Eventually the cumulative damage to their circulation started to tell and their eyes and brain deteriorated to the point that they lost the ability to read, and their retirement is now limited to sitting in front of a TV all day, physically unable to walk more than a few paces (albeit they are in their 90s).

The effects of long term high blood pressure on brain, retina, etc are the real reason for sticking with your blood pressure medication. If you are really determined to use nicotine as an appetite suppressant I would suggest that it is probably now safer to vape than to smoke a pipe - but nicotine is indeed implicated in a variety of problems - e.g. https://healthfully.com/the-effects-of-nicotine-on-the-cardiovascular-system-4188851.html. My grandfather had a problem now thought to be due to his chain smoking which caused gangrene - the medics gave him a few more years before it killed him by amputating his legs.