In article <rtlk8hhk0c1h0rbv308kcfuua6bs6rqvpq@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
><mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>> >
>>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>>> mutual hostility.
>>I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In
>terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English
>cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health
>from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the
>obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An
>overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the
>chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick
>because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now
>when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the
>effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>
>A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>
>And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>
I still see people complaining about seeking medical attention for
some non-weight related medical issue and having the doctor zero
in on weight. "I see you have a sign post stuck through your abdomen.
Have you thought about losing weight?"

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:44:53 PM UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
> >> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
> >> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
> >> >
> >> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
> >> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
> >> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
> >> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
> >> mutual hostility.
> >I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>
> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>
> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
> sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
> it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
> for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
> arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
> composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
> obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
> cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>
> As to your last sentence: if they are actually experiencing visual
> effects requiring medical intervention, that is one thing; but, if
> they are merely getting checked over to see if, by any chance, being
> obese, they have medical eye problems, that is a different thing
> altogether.
>
> I once knew a man who was in the US Army and so thin -- how thin was
> he? -- that when he stood sideways you couldn't see him. Well, not
> really, but he was very thin. One week he went on leave to an Army
> resort, got into a game of medicine ball, caught one in the chest --
> and his heart exploded. But he wasn't obese, so the Army never checked
> out his actual physical condition, because "thin" equalled "healthy".
> Focusing on fat people has its costs.
>
> OTOH, in my last job, it is true that I found myself surrounded by
> "sickies". To the point where my manager tried to shoehorn me into
> them because it made things so much easier -- for her -- if I were
> /officially/ a sickie who needed a day off every so often that if I
> were not and she actually had to make a decision.
> --
> "I begin to envy Petronius."
> "I have envied him long since."
Knowing enough about obesity and people to fix it in the population appears to be beyond us, but many of its effects are pretty solidly nailed down. ObSF "Mama came home" by James Tiptree Jr - "It did trouble me a little when I found out her chief case officer was dead - but that was all right, he'd had diabetes for years". One of the side effects of diabetes is that having loads of sugar in your blood tends to damage small blood vessels, such as those in your retina. Since lots of the retina is nerve tissue, it does not heal (see case Honor Harrington in "The Honor of the Queen"). This makes it one of a number of eye conditions that it is worth catching early, since there is some hope of stopping or retarding its progress, but none of reversing it. Encouraging diabetics to get their eyes looked at is good sense, if annoying for people like me waiting for the optician to get to them for other reasons. UK advice at https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/diabetic-retinopathy/

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <rtlk8hhk0c1h0rbv3...@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
> ><mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
> >>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
> >>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
> >>> >
> >>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
> >>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
> >>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
> >>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
> >>> mutual hostility.
> >>I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In
> >terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English
> >cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health
> >from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the
> >obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An
> >overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the
> >chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick
> >because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now
> >when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the
> >effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
> >
> >A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
> >
> >And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
> >epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
> >epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
> >bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
> >
> I still see people complaining about seeking medical attention for
> some non-weight related medical issue and having the doctor zero
> in on weight. "I see you have a sign post stuck through your abdomen.
> Have you thought about losing weight?"
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
The UK NHS (which every UK politician proclaims is the best in the world) is still doing that with smoking. When I entered the bureaucracy required for a doctor to check my eyes for glaucoma some months after my optician recommended it I was asked if I smoked. I answered "No" but was severely tempted to add. "Would that help?"

(To be fair, if I had been a smoker they would probably have offered me some sort of help to stop. Similarly, a few people at work are receiving advice and help to see if they can stop pre-diabetes turning into full-blown type II diabetes, but that doesn't stop them scoffing office cake when it appears).

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>
> Obesity is an endemic condition.

Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.

It is, however, a health problem.

John Savard

On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.

The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"

Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
imply any particular etiology.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
><mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>> >
>>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>>> mutual hostility.
>>I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>
>A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.

A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
crisis or the like.

>And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?

Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.

Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
wants to admit.

>Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>cause of "bad" gut bacteria.

Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.

>As to your last sentence: if they are actually experiencing visual
>effects requiring medical intervention, that is one thing; but, if
>they are merely getting checked over to see if, by any chance, being
>obese, they have medical eye problems, that is a different thing
>altogether.
>
>I once knew a man who was in the US Army and so thin -- how thin was
>he? -- that when he stood sideways you couldn't see him. Well, not
>really, but he was very thin. One week he went on leave to an Army
>resort, got into a game of medicine ball, caught one in the chest --
>and his heart exploded. But he wasn't obese, so the Army never checked
>out his actual physical condition, because "thin" equalled "healthy".
>Focusing on fat people has its costs.
>
>OTOH, in my last job, it is true that I found myself surrounded by
>"sickies". To the point where my manager tried to shoehorn me into
>them because it made things so much easier -- for her -- if I were
>/officially/ a sickie who needed a day off every so often that if I
>were not and she actually had to make a decision.

On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>
>> Obesity is an endemic condition.
>
>Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>
>It is, however, a health problem.

Tell that to the CDC. One of the reasons the plug got pulled on their
efforts to research murder was that they were treating it as an
infectious disease.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:46:34 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
> ><mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
> >>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
> >>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
> >>> >
> >>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
> >>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
> >>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
> >>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
> >>> mutual hostility.
> >>I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
> >
> >A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
> crisis or the like.
> >And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
> >epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
> >epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
> >bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
>
> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
> wants to admit.
> >Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
> >sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
> >it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
> >for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
> >arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
> >composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
> >obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
> >cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.

Do you have a source for that? It's the oddest evolutionary
'Just So Story' I've ever heard.

Pacific Islanders could and did make armor - you dont need metal
armor when your weapons aren't metal either.

Example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15427108@N05/48871514417
Note that that set will not fit an obese warror.

pt

On Sun, 22 May 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>In article <rtlk8hhk0c1h0rbv308kcfuua6bs6rqvpq@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>><mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>> >
>>>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>>>> mutual hostility.
>>>I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In
>>terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English
>>cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health
>>from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the
>>obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An
>>overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the
>>chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick
>>because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now
>>when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the
>>effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>>
>>A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>>
>>And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>
>I still see people complaining about seeking medical attention for
>some non-weight related medical issue and having the doctor zero
>in on weight. "I see you have a sign post stuck through your abdomen.
>Have you thought about losing weight?"

Back in the '60s, there was what we would now call a meme about a
doctor writing on the chart of a patient with a /broken leg/ "smoking
is contraindicated".

So, yes, after smoking had been licked (so to speak) [1], they moved
on to obesity. Gotta have /something/ to blame everything on!

And the Army Medical Corps bought it, hook, line, and sinker.

[1] Severely restricted as to where and when it is allowed to occur.
The main change was attitudinal: it ceased being a God-given right and
became a grudgingly-acknowledged privilege.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sun, 22 May 2022 09:31:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
<mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:44:53 PM UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>> >> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>> >> >
>> >> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>> >> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>> >> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>> >> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>> >> mutual hostility.
>> >I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>>
>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>
>> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>> sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>> it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>> for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>> arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>> composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>> obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>> cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>>
>> As to your last sentence: if they are actually experiencing visual
>> effects requiring medical intervention, that is one thing; but, if
>> they are merely getting checked over to see if, by any chance, being
>> obese, they have medical eye problems, that is a different thing
>> altogether.
>>
>> I once knew a man who was in the US Army and so thin -- how thin was
>> he? -- that when he stood sideways you couldn't see him. Well, not
>> really, but he was very thin. One week he went on leave to an Army
>> resort, got into a game of medicine ball, caught one in the chest --
>> and his heart exploded. But he wasn't obese, so the Army never checked
>> out his actual physical condition, because "thin" equalled "healthy".
>> Focusing on fat people has its costs.
>>
>> OTOH, in my last job, it is true that I found myself surrounded by
>> "sickies". To the point where my manager tried to shoehorn me into
>> them because it made things so much easier -- for her -- if I were
>> /officially/ a sickie who needed a day off every so often that if I
>> were not and she actually had to make a decision.
>> --
>> "I begin to envy Petronius."
>> "I have envied him long since."
>Knowing enough about obesity and people to fix it in the population appears to be beyond us, but many of its effects are pretty solidly nailed down. ObSF "Mama came home" by James Tiptree Jr - "It did trouble me a little when I found out her chief case officer was dead - but that was all right, he'd had diabetes for years". One of the side effects of diabetes is that having loads of sugar in your blood tends to damage small blood vessels, such as those in your retina. Since lots of the retina is nerve tissue, it does not heal (see case Honor Harrington in "The Honor of the Queen"). This makes it one of a number of eye conditions that it is worth catching early, since there is some hope of stopping or retarding its progress, but none of reversing it. Encouraging diabetics to get their eyes looked at is good sense, if annoying for people like me waiting for the optician to get to them for other reasons. UK advice at https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/diabetic-retinopathy/

Oculists (in my experience and/or in the USA) prescribe eyeglasses
and, because that is their source of income, tend to do so very well.
Much better than opthalmologists, who are medical doctors/surgeons who
handle cataracts, glaucoma, and other problems. Their income does not
depend on prescribing eyeglasses, so they aren't necessarily as good
with the trickier cases.

1. Encouraging patients who complain about their eyes to go to an
opthalmologist makes sense.

2. Encouraging patients who fall into certain categories, particularly
IOP (Intra-Ocular Pressure) high enough to satisfy the guidelines,
does as well. Those guidelines, after all, are designed /precisely/ to
identify patients who may need a closer look.

3. Referring everyone who is obese or diabetic or anything else /not/
directly involved only makes sense if actual studies of people with
and without the condition have been done and shown that a much larger
% of the former are found to have a problem than the latter.

But if there is no difference, that is, if referring /everyone/ would
have the same rate of discovering a problem, there is no point in
referring just those in certain categories.

Note that high blood pressure might fall in 2 -- or it might fall in
3.

Also note that, if enough were actually known, I would expect to find
a chart indicating, for each level of blood pressure, the maximum IOP
that would still allow the blood to reach the eye. It's been a while
since I checked, but there wasn't one then and I suspect that there
isn't one now. The tendency /then/ was to reduce IOP at any sign of
trouble, in accordance with the principle "when all you have is a
hammer, everything looks like a nail".

Unless the rhetoric has changed, it is the lack of blood because of
high IOP and blood vessels restricted by high blood pressure that
produces cell death and glaucoma. Well, some types, anyway.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:42:58 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
<naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

>On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>
>The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
>in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
>site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
>
>Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
>imply any particular etiology.

It /does/, however, imply that the problem moves swiftly through a
population. Obesity does not.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>
>> Obesity is an endemic condition.
>
>Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.

I would agree with that, but the medical propaganda has claimed it was
an epidemic since at least the advent of BMI.

In that context, "endemic" is, by far, more accurate, as the %
reported originally (33%) is the same as that reported two decades
later. When the earlier estimates were re-computed as 20% or so. As if
an increase in incidence of 10% over 20 years would make it an
epidemic.

>It is, however, a health problem.

Rather, it is a gold mine for improving the income of doctors, since
it is (trust me on this) /very/ hard to permanently lose weight. Even
diet and excercise (which do work, up to a point) have their limits.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Mon, 23 May 2022 07:58:06 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:46:34 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>> ><mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>> >>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>> >>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>> >>> >
>> >>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>> >>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>> >>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>> >>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>> >>> mutual hostility.
>> >>I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>> >
>> >A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
>> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
>> crisis or the like.
>> >And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>> >epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>> >epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>> >bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
>> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
>>
>> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
>> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
>> wants to admit.
>> >Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>> >sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>> >it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>> >for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>> >arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>> >composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>> >obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>> >cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
>> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
>> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
>> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
>
>Do you have a source for that? It's the oddest evolutionary
>'Just So Story' I've ever heard.
>
>Pacific Islanders could and did make armor - you dont need metal
>armor when your weapons aren't metal either.
>
>Example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15427108@N05/48871514417
>Note that that set will not fit an obese warror.

Actually, I have read articles (in, I think, /Science News/) on
studies suggesting that thin people simply /do not feel/ the same
urges towrad food as fat people do. This was intended to show that
will-power may not work because thin people don't need it, not because
fat people don't use it.

This would mean that fat people are being nattered by thin people who
have /no idea whatsoever/ what the fat people are experiencing. It
could also lead to regarding obesity as a form of drug addiction. We
have a lot of programs combatting drug addiction.

Such a difference /could/ be genetic. The problem is that, while being
heavy ("big-boned") does run in families, so does overeating. And then
there are those pesky gut bacteria.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Mon, 23 May 2022 07:58:06 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:46:34 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>> ><mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>> >>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>> >>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>> >>> >
>> >>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>> >>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>> >>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>> >>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>> >>> mutual hostility.
>> >>I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>> >
>> >A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
>> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
>> crisis or the like.
>> >And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>> >epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>> >epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>> >bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
>> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
>>
>> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
>> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
>> wants to admit.
>> >Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>> >sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>> >it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>> >for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>> >arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>> >composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>> >obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>> >cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
>> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
>> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
>> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
>
>Do you have a source for that? It's the oddest evolutionary
>'Just So Story' I've ever heard.
>
>Pacific Islanders could and did make armor - you dont need metal
>armor when your weapons aren't metal either.
>
>Example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15427108@N05/48871514417
>Note that that set will not fit an obese warror.

That's a fair question--I don't have a source I can lay my hands on
and a brief google doesn't provide one. So it may be one of those
things that one "knows" that "ain't so". If I come across my source
again I'll try to remember to post it.

On Mon, 23 May 2022 09:15:07 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 May 2022 07:58:06 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
><petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:46:34 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>>> ><mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>>> >>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>> >>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>> >>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>>> >>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>>> >>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>>> >>> mutual hostility.
>>> >>I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>>> >
>>> >A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>>> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
>>> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
>>> crisis or the like.
>>> >And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>> >epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>> >epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>> >bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
>>> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
>>>
>>> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
>>> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
>>> wants to admit.
>>> >Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>>> >sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>>> >it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>>> >for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>>> >arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>>> >composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>>> >obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>>> >cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>>> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
>>> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
>>> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
>>> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
>>
>>Do you have a source for that? It's the oddest evolutionary
>>'Just So Story' I've ever heard.
>>
>>Pacific Islanders could and did make armor - you dont need metal
>>armor when your weapons aren't metal either.
>>
>>Example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15427108@N05/48871514417
>>Note that that set will not fit an obese warror.
>
>Actually, I have read articles (in, I think, /Science News/) on
>studies suggesting that thin people simply /do not feel/ the same
>urges towrad food as fat people do. This was intended to show that
>will-power may not work because thin people don't need it, not because
>fat people don't use it.
>
>This would mean that fat people are being nattered by thin people who
>have /no idea whatsoever/ what the fat people are experiencing. It
>could also lead to regarding obesity as a form of drug addiction. We
>have a lot of programs combatting drug addiction.
>
>Such a difference /could/ be genetic. The problem is that, while being
>heavy ("big-boned") does run in families, so does overeating. And then
>there are those pesky gut bacteria.

Since last August I have lost 18 pounds. I have made _one_ change in
my lifestyle. I started smoking a pipe.

And before anyone goes on about how horrible smoking is, at my age if
something smoking-related kills me 40 years from now I'll count it a
win.

On Monday, 23 May 2022 at 17:03:07 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:42:58 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
> <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>
> >On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
> >> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
> >
> >The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
> >in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
> >site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
> >
> >Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
> >imply any particular etiology.
> It /does/, however, imply that the problem moves swiftly through a
> population. Obesity does not.

Plods its wobbly way, rather.

On 2022-05-22 12:42 p.m., Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>
> The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
> in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
> site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
>
> Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
> imply any particular etiology.
>

Like many words in English, there are usages for a word that used to be
narrowly defined that expand that definition to other areas.

"Epidemic" is just such a word.

On 2022-05-22 5:46 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>> <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>>>
>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>>>> mutual hostility.
>>> I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>>
>> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>
> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
> crisis or the like.

You are committing a logical fallacy there...

>
>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>
> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
>
> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
> wants to admit.

You think smoking isn't incredibly harmful?

>
>> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>> sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>> it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>> for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>> arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>> composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>> obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>> cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>
> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.

Yes. And when your life is going to be much shorter due to the nature of
the society in which you live, obesity may not be worth addressing.

We don't live in such a society.

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 3:58:09 PM UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:46:34 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> > On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
> > <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > >On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
> > ><mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
> > >>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
> > >>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
> > >>> >
> > >>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
> > >>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
> > >>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
> > >>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
> > >>> mutual hostility.
> > >>I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry.. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
> > >
> > >A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
> > A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
> > votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
> > crisis or the like.
> > >And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
> > >epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
> > >epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
> > >bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
> > Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
> > giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
> >
> > Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
> > on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
> > wants to admit.
> > >Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
> > >sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
> > >it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
> > >for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
> > >arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
> > >composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
> > >obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
> > >cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
> > Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
> > Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
> > good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
> > warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
> Do you have a source for that? It's the oddest evolutionary
> 'Just So Story' I've ever heard.
>
> Pacific Islanders could and did make armor - you dont need metal
> armor when your weapons aren't metal either.
>
> Example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15427108@N05/48871514417
> Note that that set will not fit an obese warror.
>
> pt
Interesting question to web search - I remember hearing what I think is the standard version of that hypothesis, which is that a genetic susceptibility to obesity was the result of an adaptation to feast and famine conditions on small islands. This and other theories are challenged in https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ahg.12132 which suggests that a side-effect of an adaptation for disease resistance is more plausible. The article at https://academic.oup.com/endo/article/155/5/1573/2423015?login=false looks very impressive to me - it suggests that Pacific Islanders and others did not have to acquire the ability to burn fat to generate heat in cold weather that much of the rest of humanity did, and this lack of fat-burning is making them more likely to accumulate fat in modern conditions of plenty.

If you are not happy with evolutionary biology, gene sequencing, and surveys of comparative human biology you could instead go with https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140919101425.htm which says it is all the fault of white colonialists - an answer which has the advantage that it can be reused for a multitude of other questions :-).

On 2022-05-23 9:08 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>
>>> Obesity is an endemic condition.
>>
>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>
> I would agree with that, but the medical propaganda has claimed it was
> an epidemic since at least the advent of BMI.
>
> In that context, "endemic" is, by far, more accurate, as the %
> reported originally (33%) is the same as that reported two decades
> later. When the earlier estimates were re-computed as 20% or so. As if
> an increase in incidence of 10% over 20 years would make it an
> epidemic.
>
>> It is, however, a health problem.
>
> Rather, it is a gold mine for improving the income of doctors, since
> it is (trust me on this) /very/ hard to permanently lose weight. Even
> diet and excercise (which do work, up to a point) have their limits.

No.

It is only "hard" in that it forces people to make choices that they
don't want to make.

There may be a small percentage of the population for whom weight loss
is genuinely difficult for metabolic reasons, but most people simply
don't want to do what is required:

Eat less and exercise more.

> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:44:53 PM UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>>>
>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure
>>>> out what difference in their lifestyle lead to their different
>>>> sexual practices and that finding it what was causing would
>>>> make any difference to their mutual hostility.
>>> I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in
>>> these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west
>>> and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not
>>> drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday
>>> experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the
>>> obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary
>>> industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a
>>> heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work
>>> with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their
>>> joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now
>>> when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over
>>> because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.

>> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.

What a strange and obtuse reply! Perhaps you are in self deception of
being obese and wish to contradict western societies' concerns that
obesity is a problem so you criticise a side issue, an issue of time?

>>
>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has
>> that bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?

More beating about the bush. "official propaganda", ha, ha, ha.
If you believe obesity is not a problem that western societies should be
concerned about, why not say so explicitly?

>> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded
>> as sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to
>> achieve it).

Are you saying that because in some primitive cultures it was a mark of
conspicuous consumption, that we should now disregard the adverse health
effects?

Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as
>> smoking was for a while.

Do you seriously believe that smoking was not a direct cause of death
through especially lung cancer and that it was not an underlying cause
of other health issues?

For now. Eventually, a new Cause of
>> Everything Else will arise, and obesity will be reduced to an
>> effect. Gut bacteria composition is already being lined up as the
>> True Underlying Cause of obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners
>> is being targeted as the cause of "bad" gut bacteria.

What nonsense. Processed foods, those that cause obesity, are blamed as
the cause of bad gut bacteria. (I wanted to retype that in capitals but
exercised some self restraint.)

snip further nonsense regarding eye problems contradicted already.

>> I once knew a man who was in the US Army and so thin -- how thin
>> was he? -- that when he stood sideways you couldn't see him. Well,
>> not really, but he was very thin. One week he went on leave to an
>> Army resort, got into a game of medicine ball, caught one in the
>> chest -- and his heart exploded. But he wasn't obese, so the Army
>> never checked out his actual physical condition, because "thin"
>> equalled "healthy". Focusing on fat people has its costs.

Are you aware of the logical fallacy; Proof by Isolated Example?
If you believe obesity is not a problem that western societies should be
concerned about, why not say so explicitly?
(What a shame, filters don't exclude replies to rhetorical questions.)

On 24/05/22 06:44, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-05-22 12:42 p.m., Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>
>> The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
>> in the medical field.  For instance, try a Google search for
>> site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
>>
>> Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
>> imply any particular etiology.
>>
>
> Like many words in English, there are usages for a word that used to be
> narrowly defined that expand that definition to other areas.
> "Epidemic" is just such a word.

It is not clear whether you are disagreeing with FourBricks'
constriction based on his own valued opinion or Christian's constriction
based on usage in scientific publications. Please clarify. Thank you.

On 23 May 2022, Paul S Person wrote
(in article<q1cn8hh171pg65vcjk6c5pq6rg1379635p@4ax.com>):

> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> >
> > > And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
> > > epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
> > > epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
> > > bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
> > >
> > > Obesity is an endemic condition.
> >
> > Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
> > nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>
> I would agree with that, but the medical propaganda has claimed it was
> an epidemic since at least the advent of BMI.
>
> In that context, "endemic" is, by far, more accurate, as the %
> reported originally (33%) is the same as that reported two decades
> later. When the earlier estimates were re-computed as 20% or so. As if
> an increase in incidence of 10% over 20 years would make it an
> epidemic.
>
> > It is, however, a health problem.
>
> Rather, it is a gold mine for improving the income of doctors, since
> it is (trust me on this) /very/ hard to permanently lose weight. Even
> diet and excercise (which do work, up to a point) have their limits.

Hmm. I’ve lost over 50 kilos. It took me nearly a decade to do it, but I
did it. I’ve maintained my target weight (110 kilos) for four years now.
How did I do it? I ate less and exercised (mostly walked around) more. Losing
the last 10 kilos was the hardest.

It means that I now have clothes which are much too large for me. I literally
can’t wear otherwise perfectly good clothes because they fall off me. On
the other hand, my old heavy winter coat, purchased when I was an
undergraduate in the Far Frozen North and rarely used since I moved to more
sensible climes, now fits again. Not that I intend to go north of the Ohio
River between November and April ever again. I probably won’t willingly go
north of Jacksonville; memories of 08:00 classes with snow three feet deep
and drifts of nine feet, of snow piled up in shopping center parking lots and
not finally melting until June, of the infamous Double S Bend on Lake Shore
Drive or the Dan Ryan or the Eisenhower, all in Chicago, which was the
nearest outpost of civilization to the university, are still with me. We’ll
just say that the evening news was sponsored by Dual, six ways better for
weeds in corn. Yes, a herbicide. I had the bloody ad memorised by graduation
day.

On Tue, 24 May 2022 12:00:44 +1200, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

<total nonsense snipped>
<leaving nothing to respond to>
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:42:58 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
><naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>
>>On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>
>>The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
>>in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
>>site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
>>
>>Contrary to your uninformed opinion, the term "epidemic" does not
>>imply any particular etiology.
>
>It /does/, however, imply that the problem moves swiftly through a
>population. Obesity does not.

Does it imply that?