On 25/05/22 16:27, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 12:13:23 AM UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:49:28 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 24 May 2022 12:00:44 +1200, Titus G <no...@nowhere.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> <total nonsense snipped> <leaving nothing to respond to>
>> Well, he was only responding to Andrew McDowell anyways.
>>
>> John Savard

> I think that we have successfully demonstrated that the part of the
> story that relies on a society not recognising the effects of diet
> and exercise on health is not unrealistic.

Yes. Clearly assisted by the contribution of Paul Slob Person,
(Paul Slob in Denial Person).

On 5/23/2022 12:26 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 23 May 2022 09:15:07 -0700, Paul S Person
> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 07:58:06 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:46:34 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>>>>> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>>>>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>>>>>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>>>>>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>>>>>>> mutual hostility.
>>>>>> I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>>>>>
>>>>> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>>>> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
>>>> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
>>>> crisis or the like.
>>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
>>>> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
>>>>
>>>> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
>>>> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
>>>> wants to admit.
>>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>>>>> sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>>>>> it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>>>>> for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>>>>> arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>>>>> composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>>>>> obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>>>>> cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>>>> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
>>>> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
>>>> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
>>>> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
>>>
>>> Do you have a source for that? It's the oddest evolutionary
>>> 'Just So Story' I've ever heard.
>>>
>>> Pacific Islanders could and did make armor - you dont need metal
>>> armor when your weapons aren't metal either.
>>>
>>> Example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15427108@N05/48871514417
>>> Note that that set will not fit an obese warror.
>>
>> Actually, I have read articles (in, I think, /Science News/) on
>> studies suggesting that thin people simply /do not feel/ the same
>> urges towrad food as fat people do. This was intended to show that
>> will-power may not work because thin people don't need it, not because
>> fat people don't use it.
>>
>> This would mean that fat people are being nattered by thin people who
>> have /no idea whatsoever/ what the fat people are experiencing. It
>> could also lead to regarding obesity as a form of drug addiction. We
>> have a lot of programs combatting drug addiction.
>>
>> Such a difference /could/ be genetic. The problem is that, while being
>> heavy ("big-boned") does run in families, so does overeating. And then
>> there are those pesky gut bacteria.
>
> Since last August I have lost 18 pounds. I have made _one_ change in
> my lifestyle. I started smoking a pipe.
>
> And before anyone goes on about how horrible smoking is, at my age if
> something smoking-related kills me 40 years from now I'll count it a
> win.

Aren't you about 90 or so ?

Lynn

On 2022-05-25, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 May 2022 16:14:40 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>> And then there are the /real/ nutters, who get frantic when anyone
>>> questions Modern Medicine. After Modern Medicine's creation of the
>>> opioid crisis, I would think that attitude was passe, but what do I
>>> know?
>>
>>After Trump fanatics, by "questioning Modern Medicine", exacerbated
>>the COVID-19 pandemic, I don't see the problem with the attitude you're
>>criticizing here.
>
> 1. They weren't questioning Modern Medicine so much as using Science
> to guide policy in an area where the science /itself/ was uncertain
> and so changed its recommendations frequently.

Yes. People often don't realize how uncertain science is (and that it
occasionally blunders.) In these times like Covid where there *must*
be a public policy even though the science is uncertain, that doesn't
get across.

The outright blunders don't help. One major one with Covid was how it
was transmitted. Few folks realize that the CDC (and WHO) didn't
classify Covid as primarily an airborne disease until April 2021.
Until then it was viewed as primarily airborne to surface to physical
transmission.

This wasn't because they didn't understand Covid, it was because every
relevant medical textbook for the past 50 years was outright wrong.
The textbooks said particles larger than 5 microns don't get
transmitted through the air (enough to worry about). The proper
figure was more than 100 microns. Thus there were a lot more
infectious particles just hanging around in the air than the medical
scientists (as opposed to pollution scientists) realized. This had
all kinds of consequences for non-optimal rules about masking, 6-ft
distancing, hand-washing, and ventilation!

There was a nice article in _Wired_ a year ago about this. Required
reading if you want to know some of the uglier aspects about changing
scientific thought.
https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/

> 2. The opioid crisis showed the problem. We cannot /trust/ Modern
> Medicine to behave properly any longer. Marcus Welby, MD, is long
> gone.

The opioid crisis was not so much the scientific end of modern
medicine, but the commercial and fraud end.

Chris

On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:20:10 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
<mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 6:20:39 PM UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:13:33 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tue, 24 May 2022 14:02:55 -0400, J. Clarke
>> ><jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Tue, 24 May 2022 09:01:36 -0700, Paul S Person
>> >><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:51:04 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>On 2022-05-23 9:08 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>> >>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> >>>>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>> >>>>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>> >>>>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>> >>>>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>> >>>>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I would agree with that, but the medical propaganda has claimed it was
>> >>>>> an epidemic since at least the advent of BMI.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> In that context, "endemic" is, by far, more accurate, as the %
>> >>>>> reported originally (33%) is the same as that reported two decades
>> >>>>> later. When the earlier estimates were re-computed as 20% or so. As if
>> >>>>> an increase in incidence of 10% over 20 years would make it an
>> >>>>> epidemic.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> It is, however, a health problem.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Rather, it is a gold mine for improving the income of doctors, since
>> >>>>> it is (trust me on this) /very/ hard to permanently lose weight. Even
>> >>>>> diet and excercise (which do work, up to a point) have their limits.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>No.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>It is only "hard" in that it forces people to make choices that they
>> >>>>don't want to make.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>There may be a small percentage of the population for whom weight loss
>> >>>>is genuinely difficult for metabolic reasons, but most people simply
>> >>>>don't want to do what is required:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Eat less and exercise more.
>> >>>
>> >>>And the reason a demon never actually appears in the pentagram is
>> >>>because you didn't chant the spell correctly. Or some other excuse.
>> >>>
>> >>>You are engaging in, at best, magical thought.
>> >>>
>> >>>And, at worst, totalitarian thinking ("if they did what I told them to
>> >>>do, everything would be perfect").
>> >>>
>> >>>But I will concede that attitude is everything. The attitude I found
>> >>>most helpful was to /not/ obsess about weight, but instead to simply
>> >>>adopt a proper diet and sufficient exercise. I "worry", IOW, about
>> >>>diet and exercise for their own sake, and let my weight take care of
>> >>>itself.
>> >>
>> >>I used to walk several miles several times a week. I found my
>> >>endurance getting shorter and shorter, to the point that I was beat
>> >>just walking to the end of the block. I told my doctor. He had no
>> >>comment. Finally identified the cause. Decided to do That Which Is
>> >>Forbidden and take a med holiday. Turned out it was one of the blood
>> >>pressure meds he had me on. Off the meds my endurance is about where
>> >>I expected it to be.
>> >
>> >If you tell your doctor, he can probably prescribe an additional
>> >medication or two to take care of this "side effect".
>> And likely cause two or three others.
>> >
>> >>In (not particularly active) search of a new doctor.
>> >>
>> >>But diet and exercise didn't ever stick for me. It's going to be
>> >>interesting to see if Lady N does.
>Balancing blood pressure with drugs is not easy, at least for the UK NHS. I am aware of somebody who was on blood pressure drugs for decades, and their health was up or down depending on how well the current trade-offs were working. Eventually the cumulative damage to their circulation started to tell and their eyes and brain deteriorated to the point that they lost the ability to read, and their retirement is now limited to sitting in front of a TV all day, physically unable to walk more than a few paces (albeit they are in their 90s).
>
>The effects of long term high blood pressure on brain, retina, etc are the real reason for sticking with your blood pressure medication. If you are really determined to use nicotine as an appetite suppressant I would suggest that it is probably now safer to vape than to smoke a pipe - but nicotine is indeed implicated in a variety of problems - e.g. https://healthfully.com/the-effects-of-nicotine-on-the-cardiovascular-system-4188851.html. My grandfather had a problem now thought to be due to his chain smoking which caused gangrene - the medics gave him a few more years before it killed him by amputating his legs.

Yes, child, I know about the "dangers of nicotine". I also know about
the dangers of riding a motorcycle or flying my own plane, both of
which are somewhat more immediate. I don't need you to tell me what
risks to take with my own life.

And I have no interest in "vaping".

On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:25:20 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/23/2022 12:26 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 09:15:07 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 07:58:06 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:46:34 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>>>>>> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>>>>>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>>>>>>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>>>>>>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>>>>>>>> mutual hostility.
>>>>>>> I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>>>>> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
>>>>> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
>>>>> crisis or the like.
>>>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>>> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
>>>>> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
>>>>> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
>>>>> wants to admit.
>>>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>>>>>> sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>>>>>> it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>>>>>> for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>>>>>> arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>>>>>> composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>>>>>> obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>>>>>> cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>>>>> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
>>>>> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
>>>>> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
>>>>> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
>>>>
>>>> Do you have a source for that? It's the oddest evolutionary
>>>> 'Just So Story' I've ever heard.
>>>>
>>>> Pacific Islanders could and did make armor - you dont need metal
>>>> armor when your weapons aren't metal either.
>>>>
>>>> Example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15427108@N05/48871514417
>>>> Note that that set will not fit an obese warror.
>>>
>>> Actually, I have read articles (in, I think, /Science News/) on
>>> studies suggesting that thin people simply /do not feel/ the same
>>> urges towrad food as fat people do. This was intended to show that
>>> will-power may not work because thin people don't need it, not because
>>> fat people don't use it.
>>>
>>> This would mean that fat people are being nattered by thin people who
>>> have /no idea whatsoever/ what the fat people are experiencing. It
>>> could also lead to regarding obesity as a form of drug addiction. We
>>> have a lot of programs combatting drug addiction.
>>>
>>> Such a difference /could/ be genetic. The problem is that, while being
>>> heavy ("big-boned") does run in families, so does overeating. And then
>>> there are those pesky gut bacteria.
>>
>> Since last August I have lost 18 pounds. I have made _one_ change in
>> my lifestyle. I started smoking a pipe.
>>
>> And before anyone goes on about how horrible smoking is, at my age if
>> something smoking-related kills me 40 years from now I'll count it a
>> win.
>
>Aren't you about 90 or so ?

Nope.

On 5/25/2022 8:35 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:25:20 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/23/2022 12:26 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 09:15:07 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 07:58:06 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>>>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:46:34 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>>>>>>> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>>>>>>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>>>>>>>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>>>>>>>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>>>>>>>>> mutual hostility.
>>>>>>>> I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>>>>>> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
>>>>>> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
>>>>>> crisis or the like.
>>>>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>>>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>>>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>>>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>>>> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
>>>>>> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
>>>>>> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
>>>>>> wants to admit.
>>>>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>>>>>>> sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>>>>>>> it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>>>>>>> for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>>>>>>> arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>>>>>>> composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>>>>>>> obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>>>>>>> cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>>>>>> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
>>>>>> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
>>>>>> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
>>>>>> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have a source for that? It's the oddest evolutionary
>>>>> 'Just So Story' I've ever heard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pacific Islanders could and did make armor - you dont need metal
>>>>> armor when your weapons aren't metal either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15427108@N05/48871514417
>>>>> Note that that set will not fit an obese warror.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I have read articles (in, I think, /Science News/) on
>>>> studies suggesting that thin people simply /do not feel/ the same
>>>> urges towrad food as fat people do. This was intended to show that
>>>> will-power may not work because thin people don't need it, not because
>>>> fat people don't use it.
>>>>
>>>> This would mean that fat people are being nattered by thin people who
>>>> have /no idea whatsoever/ what the fat people are experiencing. It
>>>> could also lead to regarding obesity as a form of drug addiction. We
>>>> have a lot of programs combatting drug addiction.
>>>>
>>>> Such a difference /could/ be genetic. The problem is that, while being
>>>> heavy ("big-boned") does run in families, so does overeating. And then
>>>> there are those pesky gut bacteria.
>>>
>>> Since last August I have lost 18 pounds. I have made _one_ change in
>>> my lifestyle. I started smoking a pipe.
>>>
>>> And before anyone goes on about how horrible smoking is, at my age if
>>> something smoking-related kills me 40 years from now I'll count it a
>>> win.
>>
>> Aren't you about 90 or so ?
>
> Nope.

I was teasing. You told me a while back that you were 70 or 72 or
something like that. Around ten years older than me.

Lynn

On Wed, 25 May 2022 20:53:06 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/25/2022 8:35 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:25:20 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/23/2022 12:26 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 09:15:07 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 07:58:06 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>>>>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:46:34 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>>>>>>>> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>>>>>>>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>>>>>>>>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>>>>>>>>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>>>>>>>>>> mutual hostility.
>>>>>>>>> I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>>>>>>> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
>>>>>>> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
>>>>>>> crisis or the like.
>>>>>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>>>>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>>>>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>>>>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>>>>> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
>>>>>>> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
>>>>>>> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
>>>>>>> wants to admit.
>>>>>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>>>>>>>> sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>>>>>>>> it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>>>>>>>> for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>>>>>>>> arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>>>>>>>> composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>>>>>>>> obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>>>>>>>> cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>>>>>>> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
>>>>>>> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
>>>>>>> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
>>>>>>> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you have a source for that? It's the oddest evolutionary
>>>>>> 'Just So Story' I've ever heard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pacific Islanders could and did make armor - you dont need metal
>>>>>> armor when your weapons aren't metal either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15427108@N05/48871514417
>>>>>> Note that that set will not fit an obese warror.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, I have read articles (in, I think, /Science News/) on
>>>>> studies suggesting that thin people simply /do not feel/ the same
>>>>> urges towrad food as fat people do. This was intended to show that
>>>>> will-power may not work because thin people don't need it, not because
>>>>> fat people don't use it.
>>>>>
>>>>> This would mean that fat people are being nattered by thin people who
>>>>> have /no idea whatsoever/ what the fat people are experiencing. It
>>>>> could also lead to regarding obesity as a form of drug addiction. We
>>>>> have a lot of programs combatting drug addiction.
>>>>>
>>>>> Such a difference /could/ be genetic. The problem is that, while being
>>>>> heavy ("big-boned") does run in families, so does overeating. And then
>>>>> there are those pesky gut bacteria.
>>>>
>>>> Since last August I have lost 18 pounds. I have made _one_ change in
>>>> my lifestyle. I started smoking a pipe.
>>>>
>>>> And before anyone goes on about how horrible smoking is, at my age if
>>>> something smoking-related kills me 40 years from now I'll count it a
>>>> win.
>>>
>>> Aren't you about 90 or so ?
>>
>> Nope.
>
>I was teasing. You told me a while back that you were 70 or 72 or
>something like that. Around ten years older than me.

I will be 70 in several years.

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> There is a tendency to conflate science and scientists. In the long
> run science doesn't lie. In the short run scientists lie like rugs.

If you think that scientists even lie like politicians, you're part of
the problem.

John Savard

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 4:15:34 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
> > There is a tendency to conflate science and scientists. In the long
> > run science doesn't lie. In the short run scientists lie like rugs.
> If you think that scientists even lie like politicians, you're part of
> the problem.

I tend to agree here. Scientists, (and even more so, engineers),
operate in a milieu in which there are objective tests of claims.
Politicians do not.

pt

In article <9b91fb98-65cd-4eff-81bd-c488ebf025b3n@googlegroups.com>,
pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 4:15:34 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>> > There is a tendency to conflate science and scientists. In the long
>> > run science doesn't lie. In the short run scientists lie like rugs.
>> If you think that scientists even lie like politicians, you're part of
>> the problem.
>
>I tend to agree here. Scientists, (and even more so, engineers),
>operate in a milieu in which there are objective tests of claims.

However, engineers are notoriously prone to particular forms of
derangement, which is why they are a disproportionate fraction
of cranks and terrorists.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Salem_Hypothesis

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/magazine/12FOB-IdeaLab-t.html
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Thu, 26 May 2022 07:51:27 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 4:15:34 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>> > There is a tendency to conflate science and scientists. In the long
>> > run science doesn't lie. In the short run scientists lie like rugs.
>> If you think that scientists even lie like politicians, you're part of
>> the problem.
>
>I tend to agree here. Scientists, (and even more so, engineers),
>operate in a milieu in which there are objective tests of claims.
>Politicians do not.

Indeed.

Of course, there /is/ the minor problem of results not actually being
replicable in many cases.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 25 May 2022 21:39:59 GMT, Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> wrote:

>On 2022-05-25, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 May 2022 16:14:40 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>
>>>> And then there are the /real/ nutters, who get frantic when anyone
>>>> questions Modern Medicine. After Modern Medicine's creation of the
>>>> opioid crisis, I would think that attitude was passe, but what do I
>>>> know?
>>>
>>>After Trump fanatics, by "questioning Modern Medicine", exacerbated
>>>the COVID-19 pandemic, I don't see the problem with the attitude you're
>>>criticizing here.
>>
>> 1. They weren't questioning Modern Medicine so much as using Science
>> to guide policy in an area where the science /itself/ was uncertain
>> and so changed its recommendations frequently.
>
>Yes. People often don't realize how uncertain science is (and that it
>occasionally blunders.) In these times like Covid where there *must*
>be a public policy even though the science is uncertain, that doesn't
>get across.
>
>The outright blunders don't help. One major one with Covid was how it
>was transmitted. Few folks realize that the CDC (and WHO) didn't
>classify Covid as primarily an airborne disease until April 2021.
>Until then it was viewed as primarily airborne to surface to physical
>transmission.
>
>This wasn't because they didn't understand Covid, it was because every
>relevant medical textbook for the past 50 years was outright wrong.
>The textbooks said particles larger than 5 microns don't get
>transmitted through the air (enough to worry about). The proper
>figure was more than 100 microns. Thus there were a lot more
>infectious particles just hanging around in the air than the medical
>scientists (as opposed to pollution scientists) realized. This had
>all kinds of consequences for non-optimal rules about masking, 6-ft
>distancing, hand-washing, and ventilation!
>
>There was a nice article in _Wired_ a year ago about this. Required
>reading if you want to know some of the uglier aspects about changing
>scientific thought.
>https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/

This aspect of the problem reminds me of an editorial back in the 90s
in /Skeptical Inquirer/, where the editor grandly proposed the Science
should be the source of our Ethics.

After getting questions like "What does, say, astrophysics have to say
about the ethics of abortion?" (for, if ethics are based on science,
than some such connection must exist with some scientific field), he
clarified to mean that, if one uses Utilitarianism ("the greatest good
for the greatest number"), then science can identify that good. The
problem is, for this to work, it has to actually identify it, not just
kinda-sorta suggest it, and then change its suggestion next week.

The problem with Utilitarianism, of course, is that those not in the
"greatest number" tend to end up sucking hind tit, so to speak.

>> 2. The opioid crisis showed the problem. We cannot /trust/ Modern
>> Medicine to behave properly any longer. Marcus Welby, MD, is long
>> gone.
>
>The opioid crisis was not so much the scientific end of modern
>medicine, but the commercial and fraud end.

And that's the point: medicine is, if nothing else, a /practical/
profession. What counts is how it affects its patients.

I, myself, would not think of modern medicine as having a "scientific
end", which might raise the spectre of Mengele and other perversions,
but rather as being based on science. And on technology, which itself
is based on science. In both cases, the basing is not 100%; there are
still a lot of rules-of-thumb in use, but what can one do?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Wed, 25 May 2022 13:20:34 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:13:33 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 24 May 2022 14:02:55 -0400, J. Clarke
>><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 24 May 2022 09:01:36 -0700, Paul S Person
>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:51:04 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 2022-05-23 9:08 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>>>>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>>>>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>>>>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>>>>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would agree with that, but the medical propaganda has claimed it was
>>>>>> an epidemic since at least the advent of BMI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In that context, "endemic" is, by far, more accurate, as the %
>>>>>> reported originally (33%) is the same as that reported two decades
>>>>>> later. When the earlier estimates were re-computed as 20% or so. As if
>>>>>> an increase in incidence of 10% over 20 years would make it an
>>>>>> epidemic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is, however, a health problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rather, it is a gold mine for improving the income of doctors, since
>>>>>> it is (trust me on this) /very/ hard to permanently lose weight. Even
>>>>>> diet and excercise (which do work, up to a point) have their limits.
>>>>>
>>>>>No.
>>>>>
>>>>>It is only "hard" in that it forces people to make choices that they
>>>>>don't want to make.
>>>>>
>>>>>There may be a small percentage of the population for whom weight loss
>>>>>is genuinely difficult for metabolic reasons, but most people simply
>>>>>don't want to do what is required:
>>>>>
>>>>>Eat less and exercise more.
>>>>
>>>>And the reason a demon never actually appears in the pentagram is
>>>>because you didn't chant the spell correctly. Or some other excuse.
>>>>
>>>>You are engaging in, at best, magical thought.
>>>>
>>>>And, at worst, totalitarian thinking ("if they did what I told them to
>>>>do, everything would be perfect").
>>>>
>>>>But I will concede that attitude is everything. The attitude I found
>>>>most helpful was to /not/ obsess about weight, but instead to simply
>>>>adopt a proper diet and sufficient exercise. I "worry", IOW, about
>>>>diet and exercise for their own sake, and let my weight take care of
>>>>itself.
>>>
>>>I used to walk several miles several times a week. I found my
>>>endurance getting shorter and shorter, to the point that I was beat
>>>just walking to the end of the block. I told my doctor. He had no
>>>comment. Finally identified the cause. Decided to do That Which Is
>>>Forbidden and take a med holiday. Turned out it was one of the blood
>>>pressure meds he had me on. Off the meds my endurance is about where
>>>I expected it to be.
>>
>>If you tell your doctor, he can probably prescribe an additional
>>medication or two to take care of this "side effect".
>
>And likely cause two or three others.

Well, of course. This is the well-known phenomenon of "fan-out". When
I tried Linux, oh, 20 years + ago, I became /very/ familiar with the
process as one package invariably needed others.

He might also be able to identify which med is doing it and find a
resplacement that doesn't.

>>>In (not particularly active) search of a new doctor.
>>>
>>>But diet and exercise didn't ever stick for me. It's going to be
>>>interesting to see if Lady N does.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:20:10 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
<mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 6:20:39 PM UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:13:33 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tue, 24 May 2022 14:02:55 -0400, J. Clarke
>> ><jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Tue, 24 May 2022 09:01:36 -0700, Paul S Person
>> >><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:51:04 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>On 2022-05-23 9:08 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>> >>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> >>>>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>> >>>>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>> >>>>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>> >>>>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>> >>>>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I would agree with that, but the medical propaganda has claimed it was
>> >>>>> an epidemic since at least the advent of BMI.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> In that context, "endemic" is, by far, more accurate, as the %
>> >>>>> reported originally (33%) is the same as that reported two decades
>> >>>>> later. When the earlier estimates were re-computed as 20% or so. As if
>> >>>>> an increase in incidence of 10% over 20 years would make it an
>> >>>>> epidemic.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> It is, however, a health problem.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Rather, it is a gold mine for improving the income of doctors, since
>> >>>>> it is (trust me on this) /very/ hard to permanently lose weight. Even
>> >>>>> diet and excercise (which do work, up to a point) have their limits.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>No.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>It is only "hard" in that it forces people to make choices that they
>> >>>>don't want to make.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>There may be a small percentage of the population for whom weight loss
>> >>>>is genuinely difficult for metabolic reasons, but most people simply
>> >>>>don't want to do what is required:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Eat less and exercise more.
>> >>>
>> >>>And the reason a demon never actually appears in the pentagram is
>> >>>because you didn't chant the spell correctly. Or some other excuse.
>> >>>
>> >>>You are engaging in, at best, magical thought.
>> >>>
>> >>>And, at worst, totalitarian thinking ("if they did what I told them to
>> >>>do, everything would be perfect").
>> >>>
>> >>>But I will concede that attitude is everything. The attitude I found
>> >>>most helpful was to /not/ obsess about weight, but instead to simply
>> >>>adopt a proper diet and sufficient exercise. I "worry", IOW, about
>> >>>diet and exercise for their own sake, and let my weight take care of
>> >>>itself.
>> >>
>> >>I used to walk several miles several times a week. I found my
>> >>endurance getting shorter and shorter, to the point that I was beat
>> >>just walking to the end of the block. I told my doctor. He had no
>> >>comment. Finally identified the cause. Decided to do That Which Is
>> >>Forbidden and take a med holiday. Turned out it was one of the blood
>> >>pressure meds he had me on. Off the meds my endurance is about where
>> >>I expected it to be.
>> >
>> >If you tell your doctor, he can probably prescribe an additional
>> >medication or two to take care of this "side effect".
>> And likely cause two or three others.
>> >
>> >>In (not particularly active) search of a new doctor.
>> >>
>> >>But diet and exercise didn't ever stick for me. It's going to be
>> >>interesting to see if Lady N does.
>Balancing blood pressure with drugs is not easy, at least for the UK NHS. I am aware of somebody who was on blood pressure drugs for decades, and their health was up or down depending on how well the current trade-offs were working. Eventually the cumulative damage to their circulation started to tell and their eyes and brain deteriorated to the point that they lost the ability to read, and their retirement is now limited to sitting in front of a TV all day, physically unable to walk more than a few paces (albeit they are in their 90s).

Back when I was able to check it regularly (if not entirely
accurately, perhaps) it was clear that /my/ blood pressure responds to
how much sodium I am eating.

My opthalmologist (well, one of them, I had several as the older ones
retired) once was so obsessed with the idea that, being a fatty, I
/must/ have high blood pressure that, since he had no primary care
physician to call (since I didn't have one), he actually had a tech
measure mine.

It was normal.

I never heard about the topic again.

I suspect that /most/ people can, in fact, control their BP by
controlling their sodium intake. The hardest part there is to become
aware of all the items is it in. Mustard, for example, is basically
colored sodium.

>The effects of long term high blood pressure on brain, retina, etc are the real reason for sticking with your blood pressure medication. If you are really determined to use nicotine as an appetite suppressant I would suggest that it is probably now safer to vape than to smoke a pipe - but nicotine is indeed implicated in a variety of problems - e.g. https://healthfully.com/the-effects-of-nicotine-on-the-cardiovascular-system-4188851.html. My grandfather had a problem now thought to be due to his chain smoking which caused gangrene - the medics gave him a few more years before it killed him by amputating his legs.

It's interesting that you focus here on blood pressure -- about six
months after I retired, my high value dropped to below 110, and I
nearly passed out getting up (well, that's how I interpreted the
phenomenon, anyway). Adjusting my diet to add a bit more sodium fixed
that, while keeping the BP normal.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

In article <n78v8htg499mfbnei72thkil0hnjo15ltr@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>And that's the point: medicine is, if nothing else, a /practical/
>profession. What counts is how it affects its patients.
>
>I, myself, would not think of modern medicine as having a "scientific
>end", which might raise the spectre of Mengele and other perversions,
>but rather as being based on science. And on technology, which itself
>is based on science. In both cases, the basing is not 100%; there are
>still a lot of rules-of-thumb in use, but what can one do?

For the record, Nazis tended to do shit science that maximized suffering
without producing useful results.

I suspect there's a variation on the Harvard Law of Animal Behavior
when it comes to human medicine, which is that humans can be more
variable than convenient for the cause of cramming as much generally
applicable medical knowledge into a human brain. E.g. human anatomy
generally follows a particular pattern but specific cases may vary
inconveniently: my uncle had just the one kidney, and my father's
appendix was nowhere near where appendixes usually are. The
second one came up during an emergency appendectomy.

There's also the issue that personal biases can affect how in
theory neutral information gets applied.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Thu, 26 May 2022 01:15:32 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> There is a tendency to conflate science and scientists. In the long
>> run science doesn't lie. In the short run scientists lie like rugs.
>
>If you think that scientists even lie like politicians, you're part of
>the problem.

If you think they don't you haven't spent much time around them.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 07:51:27 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 4:15:34 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>> > There is a tendency to conflate science and scientists. In the long
>> > run science doesn't lie. In the short run scientists lie like rugs.
>> If you think that scientists even lie like politicians, you're part of
>> the problem.
>
>I tend to agree here. Scientists, (and even more so, engineers),
>operate in a milieu in which there are objective tests of claims.
>Politicians do not.

Objective tests of claims are part of science. Claims are not made by
science, they are made by scientists. Scientists are people. People
lie.

One of the biggest problems our society has is trusting scientists.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:57:11 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 25 May 2022 13:20:34 -0400, J. Clarke
><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:13:33 -0700, Paul S Person
>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 24 May 2022 14:02:55 -0400, J. Clarke
>>><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 24 May 2022 09:01:36 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:51:04 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 2022-05-23 9:08 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>>>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:44:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>>>>>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>>>>>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>>>>>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
>>>>>>>> nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would agree with that, but the medical propaganda has claimed it was
>>>>>>> an epidemic since at least the advent of BMI.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In that context, "endemic" is, by far, more accurate, as the %
>>>>>>> reported originally (33%) is the same as that reported two decades
>>>>>>> later. When the earlier estimates were re-computed as 20% or so. As if
>>>>>>> an increase in incidence of 10% over 20 years would make it an
>>>>>>> epidemic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is, however, a health problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rather, it is a gold mine for improving the income of doctors, since
>>>>>>> it is (trust me on this) /very/ hard to permanently lose weight. Even
>>>>>>> diet and excercise (which do work, up to a point) have their limits.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is only "hard" in that it forces people to make choices that they
>>>>>>don't want to make.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There may be a small percentage of the population for whom weight loss
>>>>>>is genuinely difficult for metabolic reasons, but most people simply
>>>>>>don't want to do what is required:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Eat less and exercise more.
>>>>>
>>>>>And the reason a demon never actually appears in the pentagram is
>>>>>because you didn't chant the spell correctly. Or some other excuse.
>>>>>
>>>>>You are engaging in, at best, magical thought.
>>>>>
>>>>>And, at worst, totalitarian thinking ("if they did what I told them to
>>>>>do, everything would be perfect").
>>>>>
>>>>>But I will concede that attitude is everything. The attitude I found
>>>>>most helpful was to /not/ obsess about weight, but instead to simply
>>>>>adopt a proper diet and sufficient exercise. I "worry", IOW, about
>>>>>diet and exercise for their own sake, and let my weight take care of
>>>>>itself.
>>>>
>>>>I used to walk several miles several times a week. I found my
>>>>endurance getting shorter and shorter, to the point that I was beat
>>>>just walking to the end of the block. I told my doctor. He had no
>>>>comment. Finally identified the cause. Decided to do That Which Is
>>>>Forbidden and take a med holiday. Turned out it was one of the blood
>>>>pressure meds he had me on. Off the meds my endurance is about where
>>>>I expected it to be.
>>>
>>>If you tell your doctor, he can probably prescribe an additional
>>>medication or two to take care of this "side effect".
>>
>>And likely cause two or three others.
>
>Well, of course. This is the well-known phenomenon of "fan-out". When
>I tried Linux, oh, 20 years + ago, I became /very/ familiar with the
>process as one package invariably needed others.
>
>He might also be able to identify which med is doing it and find a
>resplacement that doesn't.

_Some_ physician might. This one won't. He's one of the ones who
says "it's probably" rather than finding out.

>>>>In (not particularly active) search of a new doctor.
>>>>
>>>>But diet and exercise didn't ever stick for me. It's going to be
>>>>interesting to see if Lady N does.

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>On Thu, 26 May 2022 07:51:27 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
><petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 4:15:34 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>> > There is a tendency to conflate science and scientists. In the long
>>> > run science doesn't lie. In the short run scientists lie like rugs.
>>> If you think that scientists even lie like politicians, you're part of
>>> the problem.
>>
>>I tend to agree here. Scientists, (and even more so, engineers),
>>operate in a milieu in which there are objective tests of claims.
>>Politicians do not.
>
>Objective tests of claims are part of science. Claims are not made by
>science, they are made by scientists. Scientists are people. People
>lie.
>
>One of the biggest problems our society has is trusting scientists.

Bull.

Republicans have been denigrating scientists and science (just as you do
above) without reason for decades. Look at climate science for an
example.

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:57:11 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>

>>He might also be able to identify which med is doing it and find a
>>resplacement that doesn't.
>
>_Some_ physician might. This one won't. He's one of the ones who
>says "it's probably" rather than finding out.
>

I'd be quite surprised (astonished, even) to find that "He" is the only physician in
Connecticut.

In article <t6o4or$e2g$1@reader1.panix.com>,
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> In article <9b91fb98-65cd-4eff-81bd-c488ebf025b3n@googlegroups.com>,
> pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 4:15:34 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>
> >> > There is a tendency to conflate science and scientists. In the long
> >> > run science doesn't lie. In the short run scientists lie like rugs.
> >> If you think that scientists even lie like politicians, you're part of
> >> the problem.
> >
> >I tend to agree here. Scientists, (and even more so, engineers),
> >operate in a milieu in which there are objective tests of claims.
>
> However, engineers are notoriously prone to particular forms of
> derangement, which is why they are a disproportionate fraction
> of cranks and terrorists.
>
> https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Salem_Hypothesis
>

Well, I have known many engineers. And I also know a many non-engineers.
IIRC, I didn't notice an especially high percentage of engineers who
were cranks compared to non-engineers who were cranks. I suspect that
nutty engineers know enough to be dangerous (and thus get known), while
the non-engineers disappear into the background.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 12:04:58 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 24 May 2022 16:14:40 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> >
> >> And then there are the /real/ nutters, who get frantic when anyone
> >> questions Modern Medicine. After Modern Medicine's creation of the
> >> opioid crisis, I would think that attitude was passe, but what do I
> >> know?
> >
> >After Trump fanatics, by "questioning Modern Medicine", exacerbated
> >the COVID-19 pandemic, I don't see the problem with the attitude you're
> >criticizing here.
> 1. They weren't questioning Modern Medicine so much as using Science
> to guide policy in an area where the science /itself/ was uncertain
> and so changed its recommendations frequently.
>
> 2. The opioid crisis showed the problem. We cannot /trust/ Modern
> Medicine to behave properly any longer. Marcus Welby, MD, is long
> gone.

Opioids worked staggeringly well for me when I had shingles and none of the other
painkillers made an iota of difference. If they are unavailable when I next have pain like that,
I will be one unhappy guy.

I've only had migraines once, for a week, as a result of an accident. If someone had offered
me heroin I'd have taken it. Time release opiods would have saved me from a vast
amount of pain. And saved those around me from what I presume was my incessant
bitching (I've no memory of that, but at a guess that's what I did).

I used a bit more than half the prescribed amount for the shingles. The day after I took my last, I felt minute
withdrawal symptoms. They were gone by evening.

William Hyde

On 5/26/2022 12:23 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2022 20:53:06 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/25/2022 8:35 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:25:20 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/23/2022 12:26 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 09:15:07 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 07:58:06 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>>>>>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:46:34 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:44:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>>>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>>>>>>>>> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>>>>>>>>>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>>>>>>>>>>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>>>>>>>>>>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>>>>>>>>>>> mutual hostility.
>>>>>>>>>> I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.
>>>>>>>> A "crisis" is whatever some politician thinks will get him the most
>>>>>>>> votes. If they thought it would get votes we would have a cat-fur
>>>>>>>> crisis or the like.
>>>>>>>>> And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
>>>>>>>>> epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
>>>>>>>>> epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
>>>>>>>>> bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?
>>>>>>>> Nahh. Just on the back burner for now--it will be back in a while,
>>>>>>>> giving an excuse for efforts to micromanage our diet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Simplest solution to the "obesity epidemic" would be to pull the plug
>>>>>>>> on the "tobacco crisis" but that's a dirty little secret that nobody
>>>>>>>> wants to admit.
>>>>>>>>> Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
>>>>>>>>> sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
>>>>>>>>> it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
>>>>>>>>> for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
>>>>>>>>> arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
>>>>>>>>> composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
>>>>>>>>> obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
>>>>>>>>> cause of "bad" gut bacteria.
>>>>>>>> Note that there is in some populations a genetic component.
>>>>>>>> Polynesians and others descended from populations that did not have
>>>>>>>> good access to metals or good leather tend to obesity because in
>>>>>>>> warfare without armor, fat serves the purpose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you have a source for that? It's the oddest evolutionary
>>>>>>> 'Just So Story' I've ever heard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pacific Islanders could and did make armor - you dont need metal
>>>>>>> armor when your weapons aren't metal either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15427108@N05/48871514417
>>>>>>> Note that that set will not fit an obese warror.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, I have read articles (in, I think, /Science News/) on
>>>>>> studies suggesting that thin people simply /do not feel/ the same
>>>>>> urges towrad food as fat people do. This was intended to show that
>>>>>> will-power may not work because thin people don't need it, not because
>>>>>> fat people don't use it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This would mean that fat people are being nattered by thin people who
>>>>>> have /no idea whatsoever/ what the fat people are experiencing. It
>>>>>> could also lead to regarding obesity as a form of drug addiction. We
>>>>>> have a lot of programs combatting drug addiction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Such a difference /could/ be genetic. The problem is that, while being
>>>>>> heavy ("big-boned") does run in families, so does overeating. And then
>>>>>> there are those pesky gut bacteria.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since last August I have lost 18 pounds. I have made _one_ change in
>>>>> my lifestyle. I started smoking a pipe.
>>>>>
>>>>> And before anyone goes on about how horrible smoking is, at my age if
>>>>> something smoking-related kills me 40 years from now I'll count it a
>>>>> win.
>>>>
>>>> Aren't you about 90 or so ?
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>
>> I was teasing. You told me a while back that you were 70 or 72 or
>> something like that. Around ten years older than me.
>
> I will be 70 in several years.

Must have been somebody else then.

Lynn

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There is a tendency to conflate science and scientists. In the long
> run science doesn't lie. In the short run scientists lie like rugs.

I am a scientist, and I never lie...
--
| David Duffy (MBBS PhD)
| email: David.Duffy@qimrberghofer.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101
| Genetic Epidemiology, QIMR Berghofer Institute of Medical Research
| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4006, Australia GPG 4D0B994A

pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 7:11:53 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:30:10 PM UTC-6, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> > > On 2022-05-22, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Obesity is not an infectious disease. Therefore, it is neither epidemic
> > > > nor endemic. Those categories simply do not apply.
> >
> > > The phrase "obesity epidemic" is used in scientific publications
> > > in the medical field. For instance, try a Google search for
> > > site:journals.plos.org inurl:plosmedicine "obesity epidemic"
> > >
> >
> >
> > If you go back a few decades, you will find that when it was first attempted to describe
> > obesity or smoking as epidemics, the people doing so acknowledged that this was a
> > novel usage, requiring a new way of thinking about those health problems.
> >
> > In my view, there is a very strong presumption that any "new" or "updated" meaning
> > for a word, which doesn't match the meaning already known to existing speakers of
> > the language, is just wrong. They won't understand it unless it's explained to them,
> > so it can cause confusion.
> Check this:
>
> https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Smoking+epidemic%2C+obesity+epidemic&year_start=1940&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2CSmoking%20epidemic%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cobesity%20epidemic%3B%2Cc0
>
> Or
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yu22abyn
>
> Also, delete the ',obesity epidemic' term and search just on smoking.

For just smoking, I also added "gun epidemic," which may not be the best search term.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Smoking+epidemic%2Cgun+epidemic&year_start=1940&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2CSmoking%20epidemic%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cgun%20epidemic%3B%2Cc0

The small humps in the late '60s and most of the '70s may be the minimum -- equivalent to a single usage, or however Google is measuring it, which sort of gives a scale for how "bouncy" the curves are. Hmm... the curves crossed around 1990.

Hang on, you have "Smoking" with a capital 'S'. No doubt your "helpful" computer thought the first thing you'd want to type would be a capital letter.. Either retype it, or select "Case-Insensitive" button and the graph changes, although I'll admit, not a lot.

> Tldnr: references to 'smoking epidemic' start to appear after WW2, and have now died off.
>
> How ever, still popular references to 'obesity epidemic' make the former look like a rounding
> error.

Throw in "drug epidemic" and you have a graph still visible against obesity..
"Flu epidemic" comes between those two in this century. My first response is: what!?! After trying to be too clever with wildcard searching, (would "*flu* epidemic" return both "influenza epidemic" AND "affluence epidemic"?) I realized "influenza" is really the only other choice and searched on both to mentally add their graphs. Kind of satisfying to see the more formal reference to it is the more common. So, obesity surpassed THE epidemic just before 2010.

--
-Jack