On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 5:50:11 PM UTC-7, W.Dockery wrote:
> Rachel wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 10:39:08 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 12:16:27 AM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 8:59:58 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 9:32:37 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> >> > > > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 9:25:17 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > > > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:08:38 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > real life doll
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > a little girl
> >> > > > > > plays with her dolly
> >> > > > > > her very own baby
> >> > > > > > to keep her company
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > she holds her
> >> > > > > > carries her around
> >> > > > > > sleeps with her
> >> > > > > > they hug and cuddle
> >> > > > > > maybe even feeds her
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > some dolls even
> >> > > > > > eat and drink
> >> > > > > > then pee and poop...
> >> > > > > > yes, believe it or not
> >> > > > > > it’s really true
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > you can feed them purées
> >> > > > > > and baby bottles of juice,
> >> > > > > > then change their diapers
> >> > > > > > when they wet and drop a deuce
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > everybody pees and poops
> >> > > > > > so what was i so uptight about?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > it seems we’re all hollow tubes
> >> > > > > > made to act, eat, and drink
> >> > > > > > put in some food and some liquid
> >> > > > > > then out comes the waste...
> >> > > > > > what’s a person to think?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > who are we, really
> >> > > > > > does anybody know?
> >> > > > > > where are we, really?
> >> > > > > > where do we go...
> >> > > > > > when we finally leave our bodies
> >> > > > > > this thing they call soul?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > are we just beings
> >> > > > > > in the material world,
> >> > > > > > shadowy spirits unseen?
> >> > > > > > ghosts flying ‘round
> >> > > > > > inside a machine?
> >> > > > > > our bodies all sharing
> >> > > > > > one communally-planned dream
> >> > > > > > of hosts floating freely
> >> > > > > > voices dancing on strings?
> >> > > > > > where does the soul go
> >> > > > > > after we die?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > i don’t know much
> >> > > > > > about any of these things...
> >> > > > > > i never had a dolly
> >> > > > > > who could dance or sing
> >> > > > > > certainly never one
> >> > > > > > who heeded nature’s call...
> >> > > > > > i never really had
> >> > > > > > a doll of any kind at all
> >> > > > > > but i wasn’t missing anything
> >> > > > > > i never wanted one...
> >> > > > > > to me they didn’t seem
> >> > > > > > like they would be all that much fun
> >> > > > > > i had a few books
> >> > > > > > and some records
> >> > > > > > which i somehow collected,
> >> > > > > > and my birds, and my fishes
> >> > > > > > and a few little wishes...
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > and now
> >> > > > > > i don’t have a baby, either
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > my dog is dead
> >> > > > > > i live alone
> >> > > > > > feed myself
> >> > > > > > and wipe my own ass...
> >> > > > > > at least for now
> >> > > > > > as best i can
> >> > > > > > yeah, it’s a real gas
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > yes, i don’t have
> >> > > > > > my very own baby,
> >> > > > > > perhaps that was even
> >> > > > > > a good thing...maybe
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > my cousin got hit by a car
> >> > > > > > two cousins, in fact
> >> > > > > > in two separate accidents
> >> > > > > > yet both were still hit
> >> > > > > > one of them lived
> >> > > > > > the other one died
> >> > > > > > i even had a cousin
> >> > > > > > who committed suicide
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > i never played with a dolly
> >> > > > > > what kind of plan is this
> >> > > > > > when judas betrayed jesus
> >> > > > > > he did so with a kiss
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > so i just have to stop and wonder,
> >> > > > > > all about me,
> >> > > > > > how things might have turned out
> >> > > > > > differently,
> >> > > > > > if i had had a doll
> >> > > > > > who poops and pees?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > maybe i would have been more prepared
> >> > > > > > and more willing to play along
> >> > > > > > where the goal of the brain is reproduction,
> >> > > > > > in this planet’s never-ending song
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > then again, maybe not
> >> > > > > > it’s probably all just a crock
> >> > > > > > ask hitler what he thought
> >> > > > > > when he looked around, too
> >> > > > > > and asked himself, what am i to do
> >> > > > > > with all of these jews?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > i guess i, myself,
> >> > > > > > just don’t see...
> >> > > > > > the point of it all,
> >> > > > > > this point to be...
> >> > > > > > where everyone plays along
> >> > > > > > and is all but the same
> >> > > > > > making more and more babies
> >> > > > > > human links in a chain
> >> > > > > > never stopping to ask
> >> > > > > > who designed this whole game
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > maybe i’m on the outside
> >> > > > > > of whatever side they’re all on…
> >> > > > > > where every day is a struggle
> >> > > > > > and my troubles weigh a ton
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > what do little girls do
> >> > > > > > with their babies
> >> > > > > > when they grow up?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Jolene
> >> > > > > I enjoyed this in stretches, I was appropriately disturbed in most of the right places.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The duality, yin and yang, and life unkind almost random.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Reminds me of Carl Sandburg in his longer winded moments, which is a good thing, and, of all things, some other early efforts at written/spoken poetry, 1976-77.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Thanks for posting, Rachel, as always, thought provoking.
> >> > > > May I asked which parts disturbed you, and why? Just curious. (not immediately obvious to me *at_all!*)
> >> > > Hello again Rachel, I'll go over the poem point by point soon, when time permits.
> >> > jeez wow....you've got me antsy now, i don't think the poem deserves it which makes me think your comments are going to be more insightful than the intention behind the poem itself!!! :)
> >> Do you remember Philo's critique of your poem the original thread?
> >>
> >> A few of my thoughts are derived from his observations.
> >>
> >> The disturbing elements come from the simple acceptance of the duality of life and the multiverse.
> >>
> >> Could be I've been watching too many Marvel Comics films.
> >>
> >> 🙂
> > I didn't remember either too well, but re-reading the thread before working with it jogged my memory! i like philo's poems! and i remember he posted a video of his wife's (or partner's) paintings, i THINK !?!!??!? iinm...? something...? an exhibit perhaps? he had good true life stories too, IINM.. i'm sorry. my memory is finicky. it only gloms onto certain things, and is not that sharp for later life experiences, except perhaps for me being a one-eyed midget, and that's not necessarily (???) much of an attractive quality.. oh well. :(
> > if only i could exercise, too. i am severely injured. :-/// crud. :-(((
> I'm still friends with Philo on Facebook, nice guy.

On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 10:30:41 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 5:50:11 PM UTC-7, W.Dockery wrote:
> > Rachel wrote:
> >
> > > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 10:39:08 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 12:16:27 AM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > >> > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 8:59:58 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> > > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 9:32:37 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > >> > > > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 9:25:17 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> > > > > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:08:38 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > real life doll
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > a little girl
> > >> > > > > > plays with her dolly
> > >> > > > > > her very own baby
> > >> > > > > > to keep her company
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > she holds her
> > >> > > > > > carries her around
> > >> > > > > > sleeps with her
> > >> > > > > > they hug and cuddle
> > >> > > > > > maybe even feeds her
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > some dolls even
> > >> > > > > > eat and drink
> > >> > > > > > then pee and poop...
> > >> > > > > > yes, believe it or not
> > >> > > > > > it’s really true
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > you can feed them purées
> > >> > > > > > and baby bottles of juice,
> > >> > > > > > then change their diapers
> > >> > > > > > when they wet and drop a deuce
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > everybody pees and poops
> > >> > > > > > so what was i so uptight about?
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > it seems we’re all hollow tubes
> > >> > > > > > made to act, eat, and drink
> > >> > > > > > put in some food and some liquid
> > >> > > > > > then out comes the waste...
> > >> > > > > > what’s a person to think?
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > who are we, really
> > >> > > > > > does anybody know?
> > >> > > > > > where are we, really?
> > >> > > > > > where do we go...
> > >> > > > > > when we finally leave our bodies
> > >> > > > > > this thing they call soul?
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > are we just beings
> > >> > > > > > in the material world,
> > >> > > > > > shadowy spirits unseen?
> > >> > > > > > ghosts flying ‘round
> > >> > > > > > inside a machine?
> > >> > > > > > our bodies all sharing
> > >> > > > > > one communally-planned dream
> > >> > > > > > of hosts floating freely
> > >> > > > > > voices dancing on strings?
> > >> > > > > > where does the soul go
> > >> > > > > > after we die?
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > i don’t know much
> > >> > > > > > about any of these things...
> > >> > > > > > i never had a dolly
> > >> > > > > > who could dance or sing
> > >> > > > > > certainly never one
> > >> > > > > > who heeded nature’s call...
> > >> > > > > > i never really had
> > >> > > > > > a doll of any kind at all
> > >> > > > > > but i wasn’t missing anything
> > >> > > > > > i never wanted one...
> > >> > > > > > to me they didn’t seem
> > >> > > > > > like they would be all that much fun
> > >> > > > > > i had a few books
> > >> > > > > > and some records
> > >> > > > > > which i somehow collected,
> > >> > > > > > and my birds, and my fishes
> > >> > > > > > and a few little wishes...
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > and now
> > >> > > > > > i don’t have a baby, either
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > my dog is dead
> > >> > > > > > i live alone
> > >> > > > > > feed myself
> > >> > > > > > and wipe my own ass...
> > >> > > > > > at least for now
> > >> > > > > > as best i can
> > >> > > > > > yeah, it’s a real gas
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > yes, i don’t have
> > >> > > > > > my very own baby,
> > >> > > > > > perhaps that was even
> > >> > > > > > a good thing...maybe
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > my cousin got hit by a car
> > >> > > > > > two cousins, in fact
> > >> > > > > > in two separate accidents
> > >> > > > > > yet both were still hit
> > >> > > > > > one of them lived
> > >> > > > > > the other one died
> > >> > > > > > i even had a cousin
> > >> > > > > > who committed suicide
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > i never played with a dolly
> > >> > > > > > what kind of plan is this
> > >> > > > > > when judas betrayed jesus
> > >> > > > > > he did so with a kiss
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > so i just have to stop and wonder,
> > >> > > > > > all about me,
> > >> > > > > > how things might have turned out
> > >> > > > > > differently,
> > >> > > > > > if i had had a doll
> > >> > > > > > who poops and pees?
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > maybe i would have been more prepared
> > >> > > > > > and more willing to play along
> > >> > > > > > where the goal of the brain is reproduction,
> > >> > > > > > in this planet’s never-ending song
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > then again, maybe not
> > >> > > > > > it’s probably all just a crock
> > >> > > > > > ask hitler what he thought
> > >> > > > > > when he looked around, too
> > >> > > > > > and asked himself, what am i to do
> > >> > > > > > with all of these jews?
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > i guess i, myself,
> > >> > > > > > just don’t see...
> > >> > > > > > the point of it all,
> > >> > > > > > this point to be...
> > >> > > > > > where everyone plays along
> > >> > > > > > and is all but the same
> > >> > > > > > making more and more babies
> > >> > > > > > human links in a chain
> > >> > > > > > never stopping to ask
> > >> > > > > > who designed this whole game
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > maybe i’m on the outside
> > >> > > > > > of whatever side they’re all on…
> > >> > > > > > where every day is a struggle
> > >> > > > > > and my troubles weigh a ton
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > what do little girls do
> > >> > > > > > with their babies
> > >> > > > > > when they grow up?
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Jolene
> > >> > > > > I enjoyed this in stretches, I was appropriately disturbed in most of the right places.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > The duality, yin and yang, and life unkind almost random.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Reminds me of Carl Sandburg in his longer winded moments, which is a good thing, and, of all things, some other early efforts at written/spoken poetry, 1976-77.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Thanks for posting, Rachel, as always, thought provoking.
> > >> > > > May I asked which parts disturbed you, and why? Just curious. (not immediately obvious to me *at_all!*)
> > >> > > Hello again Rachel, I'll go over the poem point by point soon, when time permits.
> > >> > jeez wow....you've got me antsy now, i don't think the poem deserves it which makes me think your comments are going to be more insightful than the intention behind the poem itself!!! :)
> > >> Do you remember Philo's critique of your poem the original thread?
> > >>
> > >> A few of my thoughts are derived from his observations.
> > >>
> > >> The disturbing elements come from the simple acceptance of the duality of life and the multiverse.
> > >>
> > >> Could be I've been watching too many Marvel Comics films.
> > >>
> >
> > > I didn't remember either too well, but re-reading the thread before working with it jogged my memory! i like philo's poems! and i remember he posted a video of his wife's (or partner's) paintings, i THINK !?!!??!? iinm....? something...? an exhibit perhaps? he had good true life stories too, IINM. i'm sorry. my memory is finicky. it only gloms onto certain things, and is not that sharp for later life experiences, except perhaps for me being a one-eyed midget, and that's not necessarily (???) much of an attractive quality.. oh well. :(
> > > if only i could exercise, too. i am severely injured. :-/// crud. :-(((
> > I'm still friends with Philo on Facebook, nice guy.
> okay, i don't mean to embarrass myself (OR HIM) but didn't he say he had a crack issue at one point? does my memory deceive me? or a friend of his, maybe it was! ????

On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 9:24:31 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 11:52:45 AM UTC-4, Family Guy wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 12:25:17 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >
> > > I was disturbed
> >
> > "We know
> You and who else, Dink?

Everybody, Donkey. Everybody.

On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 1:50:11 PM UTC-4, General-Zod wrote:
> Rachel wrote:
> >
> > alternate
>
> > but i wasn't missing anything
> > i never wanted one...
> > to me they didn't seem
> > to be all that much fun
>
> > and then the ending back to the first way
>
> > what do you do
> > with your babies
> > when they grow up?
>
> > opinions welcome
> I am a life long bachelor and father of no child

Thank god

On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 5:53:46 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:

> if only i could exercise, too. i am severely injured.

Mentally.

On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 10:43:27 AM UTC-4, Family Guy wrote:
> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 1:50:11 PM UTC-4, General-Zod wrote:
> > Rachel wrote:
> > >
> > > alternate
> >
> > > but i wasn't missing anything
> > > i never wanted one...
> > > to me they didn't seem
> > > to be all that much fun
> >
> > > and then the ending back to the first way
> >
> > > what do you do
> > > with your babies
> > > when they grow up?
> >
> > > opinions welcome
> > I am a life long bachelor and father of no child
> Thank god

Troll much, Dink?

🙂

Rachel wrote:

> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 5:50:11 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 12:16:27 AM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 8:59:58 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 9:32:37 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
>
>> >> > > > > > real life doll
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > a little girl
>> >> > > > > > plays with her dolly
>> >> > > > > > her very own baby
>> >> > > > > > to keep her company
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > she holds her
>> >> > > > > > carries her around
>> >> > > > > > sleeps with her
>> >> > > > > > they hug and cuddle
>> >> > > > > > maybe even feeds her
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > some dolls even
>> >> > > > > > eat and drink
>> >> > > > > > then pee and poop...
>> >> > > > > > yes, believe it or not
>> >> > > > > > it’s really true
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > you can feed them purées
>> >> > > > > > and baby bottles of juice,
>> >> > > > > > then change their diapers
>> >> > > > > > when they wet and drop a deuce
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > everybody pees and poops
>> >> > > > > > so what was i so uptight about?
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > it seems we’re all hollow tubes
>> >> > > > > > made to act, eat, and drink
>> >> > > > > > put in some food and some liquid
>> >> > > > > > then out comes the waste...
>> >> > > > > > what’s a person to think?
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > who are we, really
>> >> > > > > > does anybody know?
>> >> > > > > > where are we, really?
>> >> > > > > > where do we go...
>> >> > > > > > when we finally leave our bodies
>> >> > > > > > this thing they call soul?
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > are we just beings
>> >> > > > > > in the material world,
>> >> > > > > > shadowy spirits unseen?
>> >> > > > > > ghosts flying ‘round
>> >> > > > > > inside a machine?
>> >> > > > > > our bodies all sharing
>> >> > > > > > one communally-planned dream
>> >> > > > > > of hosts floating freely
>> >> > > > > > voices dancing on strings?
>> >> > > > > > where does the soul go
>> >> > > > > > after we die?
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > i don’t know much
>> >> > > > > > about any of these things...
>> >> > > > > > i never had a dolly
>> >> > > > > > who could dance or sing
>> >> > > > > > certainly never one
>> >> > > > > > who heeded nature’s call...
>> >> > > > > > i never really had
>> >> > > > > > a doll of any kind at all
>> >> > > > > > but i wasn’t missing anything
>> >> > > > > > i never wanted one...
>> >> > > > > > to me they didn’t seem
>> >> > > > > > like they would be all that much fun
>> >> > > > > > i had a few books
>> >> > > > > > and some records
>> >> > > > > > which i somehow collected,
>> >> > > > > > and my birds, and my fishes
>> >> > > > > > and a few little wishes...
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > and now
>> >> > > > > > i don’t have a baby, either
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > my dog is dead
>> >> > > > > > i live alone
>> >> > > > > > feed myself
>> >> > > > > > and wipe my own ass...
>> >> > > > > > at least for now
>> >> > > > > > as best i can
>> >> > > > > > yeah, it’s a real gas
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > yes, i don’t have
>> >> > > > > > my very own baby,
>> >> > > > > > perhaps that was even
>> >> > > > > > a good thing...maybe
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > my cousin got hit by a car
>> >> > > > > > two cousins, in fact
>> >> > > > > > in two separate accidents
>> >> > > > > > yet both were still hit
>> >> > > > > > one of them lived
>> >> > > > > > the other one died
>> >> > > > > > i even had a cousin
>> >> > > > > > who committed suicide
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > i never played with a dolly
>> >> > > > > > what kind of plan is this
>> >> > > > > > when judas betrayed jesus
>> >> > > > > > he did so with a kiss
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > so i just have to stop and wonder,
>> >> > > > > > all about me,
>> >> > > > > > how things might have turned out
>> >> > > > > > differently,
>> >> > > > > > if i had had a doll
>> >> > > > > > who poops and pees?
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > maybe i would have been more prepared
>> >> > > > > > and more willing to play along
>> >> > > > > > where the goal of the brain is reproduction,
>> >> > > > > > in this planet’s never-ending song
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > then again, maybe not
>> >> > > > > > it’s probably all just a crock
>> >> > > > > > ask hitler what he thought
>> >> > > > > > when he looked around, too
>> >> > > > > > and asked himself, what am i to do
>> >> > > > > > with all of these jews?
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > i guess i, myself,
>> >> > > > > > just don’t see...
>> >> > > > > > the point of it all,
>> >> > > > > > this point to be...
>> >> > > > > > where everyone plays along
>> >> > > > > > and is all but the same
>> >> > > > > > making more and more babies
>> >> > > > > > human links in a chain
>> >> > > > > > never stopping to ask
>> >> > > > > > who designed this whole game
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > maybe i’m on the outside
>> >> > > > > > of whatever side they’re all on…
>> >> > > > > > where every day is a struggle
>> >> > > > > > and my troubles weigh a ton
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > what do little girls do
>> >> > > > > > with their babies
>> >> > > > > > when they grow up?
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > Jolene
>> >> > > > > I enjoyed this in stretches, I was appropriately disturbed in most of the right places.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > The duality, yin and yang, and life unkind almost random.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Reminds me of Carl Sandburg in his longer winded moments, which is a good thing, and, of all things, some other early efforts at written/spoken poetry, 1976-77.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Thanks for posting, Rachel, as always, thought provoking.
>> >> > > > May I asked which parts disturbed you, and why? Just curious. (not immediately obvious to me *at_all!*)
>> >> > > Hello again Rachel, I'll go over the poem point by point soon, when time permits.
>> >> > jeez wow....you've got me antsy now, i don't think the poem deserves it which makes me think your comments are going to be more insightful than the intention behind the poem itself!!! :)
>> >> Do you remember Philo's critique of your poem the original thread?
>> >>
>> >> A few of my thoughts are derived from his observations.
>> >>
>> >> The disturbing elements come from the simple acceptance of the duality of life and the multiverse.
>> >>
>> >> Could be I've been watching too many Marvel Comics films.
>> >>
>> >> 🙂
>> > I didn't remember either too well, but re-reading the thread before working with it jogged my memory! i like philo's poems! and i remember he posted a video of his wife's (or partner's) paintings, i THINK !?!!??!? iinm...? something...? an exhibit perhaps? he had good true life stories too, IINM.. i'm sorry. my memory is finicky. it only gloms onto certain things, and is not that sharp for later life experiences, except perhaps for me being a one-eyed midget, and that's not necessarily (???) much of an attractive quality.. oh well. :(
>> > if only i could exercise, too. i am severely injured. :-/// crud. :-(((
>> I'm still friends with Philo on Facebook, nice guy.

On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 1:36:04 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
>
> alternate
> but i wasn't missing anything
> i never wanted one...
> to me they didn't seem
> to be all that much fun
>
> and then the ending back to the first way
>
> what do you do
> with your babies
> when they grow up?
>
> opinions welcome

I like, I like a lot...

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 11:27:35 AM UTC-7, Faraway Star wrote:
> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 1:36:04 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> >
> > alternate
> > but i wasn't missing anything
> > i never wanted one...
> > to me they didn't seem
> > to be all that much fun
> >
> > and then the ending back to the first way
> >
> > what do you do
> > with your babies
> > when they grow up?
> >
> > opinions welcome
> I like, I like a lot...

also. i changed 'round to around. i think it fits better, both rhythmically and phonically

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:08:38 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> real life doll
>
>
> a little girl
> plays with her dolly
> her very own baby
> to keep her company
>
> she holds her
> carries her around
> sleeps with her
> they hug and cuddle
> maybe even feeds her
>
> some dolls even
> eat and drink
> then pee and poop...
> yes, believe it or not
> it’s really true
>
> you can feed them purées
> and baby bottles of juice,
> then change their diapers
> when they wet and drop a deuce
>
> everybody pees and poops
> so what was i so uptight about?
>
> it seems we’re all hollow tubes
> made to act, eat, and drink
> put in some food and some liquid
> then out comes the waste...
> what’s a person to think?
>
> who are we, really
> does anybody know?
> where are we, really?
> where do we go...
> when we finally leave our bodies
> this thing they call soul?
>
> are we just beings
> in the material world,
> shadowy spirits unseen?
> ghosts flying ‘round
> inside a machine?
> our bodies all sharing
> one communally-planned dream
> of hosts floating freely
> voices dancing on strings?
> where does the soul go
> after we die?
>
> i don’t know much
> about any of these things...
> i never had a dolly
> who could dance or sing
> certainly never one
> who heeded nature’s call...
> i never really had
> a doll of any kind at all
> but i wasn’t missing anything
> i never wanted one...
> to me they didn’t seem
> like they would be all that much fun
> i had a few books
> and some records
> which i somehow collected,
> and my birds, and my fishes
> and a few little wishes...
>
> and now
> i don’t have a baby, either
>
> my dog is dead
> i live alone
> feed myself
> and wipe my own ass...
> at least for now
> as best i can
> yeah, it’s a real gas
>
> yes, i don’t have
> my very own baby,
> perhaps that was even
> a good thing...maybe
>
> my cousin got hit by a car
> two cousins, in fact
> in two separate accidents
> yet both were still hit
> one of them lived
> the other one died
> i even had a cousin
> who committed suicide
>
> i never played with a dolly
> what kind of plan is this
> when judas betrayed jesus
> he did so with a kiss
>
> so i just have to stop and wonder,
> all about me,
> how things might have turned out
> differently,
> if i had had a doll
> who poops and pees?
>
> maybe i would have been more prepared
> and more willing to play along
> where the goal of the brain is reproduction,
> in this planet’s never-ending song
>
> then again, maybe not
> it’s probably all just a crock
> ask hitler what he thought
> when he looked around, too
> and asked himself, what am i to do
> with all of these jews?
>
> i guess i, myself,
> just don’t see...
> the point of it all,
> this point to be...
> where everyone plays along
> and is all but the same
> making more and more babies
> human links in a chain
> never stopping to ask
> who designed this whole game
>
> maybe i’m on the outside
> of whatever side they’re all on…
> where every day is a struggle
> and my troubles weigh a ton
>
> what do little girls do
> with their babies
> when they grow up?
>
> Jolene

The idea that one can grow up to have an unfulfilled adult life due to the lack of gender conditioning toys during childhood is an interesting one. For the past 40+ years, psychologists have been advising *against* gender typing children, and the results of a study investigating whether children raised without gender typing had happy and/or fulfilling adulthoods would be interesting.

Unfortunately, this poem is all over the place: breaking off into tangents regarding Jesus and Judas, Hitler and the Holocaust, and the various deaths of the speaker's cousins (not to mention philosophical speculations on the existence of a soul). Not only is the poem unable to stay focused on a single topic, but it randomly breaks in and out of rhyme (with many of the latter seeming forced).

If you were to cut out all of the extraneous material and stick to the speaker's inability to fit into a happy, traditional adult role -- and keep it strictly unrhymed free verse, you might end up with a decent poem.

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 3:27:51 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 11:27:35 AM UTC-7, Faraway Star wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 1:36:04 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > >
> > > alternate
> > > but i wasn't missing anything
> > > i never wanted one...
> > > to me they didn't seem
> > > to be all that much fun
> > >
> > > and then the ending back to the first way
> > >
> > > what do you do
> > > with your babies
> > > when they grow up?
> > >
> > > opinions welcome
> > I like, I like a lot...
> also. i changed 'round to around. i think it fits better, both rhythmically and phonically

Sounds like a good change.

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 6:44:42 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:08:38 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > real life doll
> >
> >
> > a little girl
> > plays with her dolly
> > her very own baby
> > to keep her company
> >
> > she holds her
> > carries her around
> > sleeps with her
> > they hug and cuddle
> > maybe even feeds her
> >
> > some dolls even
> > eat and drink
> > then pee and poop...
> > yes, believe it or not
> > it’s really true
> >
> > you can feed them purées
> > and baby bottles of juice,
> > then change their diapers
> > when they wet and drop a deuce
> >
> > everybody pees and poops
> > so what was i so uptight about?
> >
> > it seems we’re all hollow tubes
> > made to act, eat, and drink
> > put in some food and some liquid
> > then out comes the waste...
> > what’s a person to think?
> >
> > who are we, really
> > does anybody know?
> > where are we, really?
> > where do we go...
> > when we finally leave our bodies
> > this thing they call soul?
> >
> > are we just beings
> > in the material world,
> > shadowy spirits unseen?
> > ghosts flying ‘round
> > inside a machine?
> > our bodies all sharing
> > one communally-planned dream
> > of hosts floating freely
> > voices dancing on strings?
> > where does the soul go
> > after we die?
> >
> > i don’t know much
> > about any of these things...
> > i never had a dolly
> > who could dance or sing
> > certainly never one
> > who heeded nature’s call...
> > i never really had
> > a doll of any kind at all
> > but i wasn’t missing anything
> > i never wanted one...
> > to me they didn’t seem
> > like they would be all that much fun
> > i had a few books
> > and some records
> > which i somehow collected,
> > and my birds, and my fishes
> > and a few little wishes...
> >
> > and now
> > i don’t have a baby, either
> >
> > my dog is dead
> > i live alone
> > feed myself
> > and wipe my own ass...
> > at least for now
> > as best i can
> > yeah, it’s a real gas
> >
> > yes, i don’t have
> > my very own baby,
> > perhaps that was even
> > a good thing...maybe
> >
> > my cousin got hit by a car
> > two cousins, in fact
> > in two separate accidents
> > yet both were still hit
> > one of them lived
> > the other one died
> > i even had a cousin
> > who committed suicide
> >
> > i never played with a dolly
> > what kind of plan is this
> > when judas betrayed jesus
> > he did so with a kiss
> >
> > so i just have to stop and wonder,
> > all about me,
> > how things might have turned out
> > differently,
> > if i had had a doll
> > who poops and pees?
> >
> > maybe i would have been more prepared
> > and more willing to play along
> > where the goal of the brain is reproduction,
> > in this planet’s never-ending song
> >
> > then again, maybe not
> > it’s probably all just a crock
> > ask hitler what he thought
> > when he looked around, too
> > and asked himself, what am i to do
> > with all of these jews?
> >
> > i guess i, myself,
> > just don’t see...
> > the point of it all,
> > this point to be...
> > where everyone plays along
> > and is all but the same
> > making more and more babies
> > human links in a chain
> > never stopping to ask
> > who designed this whole game
> >
> > maybe i’m on the outside
> > of whatever side they’re all on…
> > where every day is a struggle
> > and my troubles weigh a ton
> >
> > what do little girls do
> > with their babies
> > when they grow up?
> >
> > Jolene
>
> The idea that one can grow up to have an unfulfilled adult life due to the lack of gender conditioning toys during childhood is an interesting one. For the past 40+ years, psychologists have been advising *against* gender typing children, and the results of a study investigating whether children raised without gender typing had happy and/or fulfilling adulthoods would be interesting.
>
> Unfortunately, this poem is all over the place: breaking off into tangents regarding Jesus and Judas, Hitler and the Holocaust, and the various deaths of the speaker's cousins (not to mention philosophical speculations on the existence of a soul). Not only is the poem unable to stay focused on a single topic, but it randomly breaks in and out of rhyme (with many of the latter seeming forced).
>
> If you were to cut out all of the extraneous material and stick to the speaker's inability to fit into a happy, traditional adult role -- and keep it strictly unrhymed free verse, you might end up with a decent poem.

I have a feminist children's story, I can't find it online (!) but i think it was called the girl with the magic hat. she goes to a world where she resolves that anybody's toys can be for anyone, where there was a wall separating the two genders, so in the end, no just boys' toys or girls' toys, just kids' toys. it was a great, pretty memorable story, sorry I don't recall it better just now. i'll have to go look at it again some day.

i don't see how talking about kissing as a means to put someone to death, to betray them and thus lead up to it, is off-topic when discussing the confusing realities behind love and marriage (and reproduction), making babies, which some people, mostly little girls, are just dying for, to do, where as you learn the today's culture and tradition, the intro is kissing and is all romantic and sweet, and marriages are replete with doves and swans and ice sculptures and a beautiful silk sequined dress or whatever, and then this leads to bearing children and raising them, which is the greatest responsibility a human can take on, the most serious job you can undertake pretty much, bringing new human life into the world, and most everybody does it, you don't even need a license, the opportunity is given out freely by the creator to just about nearly any idiot, because, well, that's just what we do. we make and raise babies. (most people) and if you don't, you are often frowned upon for being selfish, like how my new dentist did to me, spoke to me condescendingly and mockingly, saying my name over and over and over while speaking to me, with a touch of sarcasm, just a subtle hint, mocking the way i spoke (kinda casual, with "likes" and exuberance at first as opposed to more conservatively and traditionally adult), and then talking about their kids, like, that's what you do in life, it's their turn now, we focus on the kids, as if i was all wrong, and that's why I suffer, because I'm trying to keep my identity as rachel, and not turn into so-and-so's mom according to nature's plan (?), when this nature made hitler and sanctioned the holocaust, knowing i am an american jew and not a jewish american, the rest of the class apparently either not paying attention in class in hebrew school or had amnesia or g-d only knows what, as to what we were learning, ie., the nuremburg laws, hitler, the final solution, holocaust and those jews had insisted they were all fervent patriotic germans, first, and well, you know what happened, and this example being is presented as a synecdoche for all bad things in the world. it was really awful (the new dentist, how he spoke to me.)

and i faced the very same issue, when thinking about what are we doing here, this "game," of creation, the making of babies that girls seem to want and are conditioned to dream about so devotedly. hitler wanting to create, to be an artist and getting rejected by the academic artistic community (probably of lots of jews?), and well, he decided to be the father to the german people instead, having people heil his is last name, and raise them up with his phony anti-semitic propaganda, and well, we all know what he did instead of being an artist or raising his own traditional family, anyway, and i wrote about it, following thinking about procreating, imagining going to synagogue, after i met bob and was back in weho, and asking all the kids what they thought of the world, the planet, like, what are we doing here, isn't it horrible??? this makes no sense....unless you are a eccentric and/or an irritating solipsist or something.

and along those lines, it just makes you wonder what the whole thing is about, like soul? what does that mean? is that a word for someone who believes in an afterlife or reincarnation or what? is it scientifically sound, or just more hokey brain activity to kill time and be busy with "intellectual activity?"

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 7:02:39 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 3:27:51 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 11:27:35 AM UTC-7, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 1:36:04 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > > >
> > > > alternate
> > > > but i wasn't missing anything
> > > > i never wanted one...
> > > > to me they didn't seem
> > > > to be all that much fun
> > > >
> > > > and then the ending back to the first way
> > > >
> > > > what do you do
> > > > with your babies
> > > > when they grow up?
> > > >
> > > > opinions welcome
> > > I like, I like a lot...
> > also. i changed 'round to around. i think it fits better, both rhythmically and phonically
> Sounds like a good change.

thanks will! i agree. :)

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 6:44:42 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:08:38 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > > real life doll
> > >
> > >
> > > a little girl
> > > plays with her dolly
> > > her very own baby
> > > to keep her company
> > >
> > > she holds her
> > > carries her around
> > > sleeps with her
> > > they hug and cuddle
> > > maybe even feeds her
> > >
> > > some dolls even
> > > eat and drink
> > > then pee and poop...
> > > yes, believe it or not
> > > it’s really true
> > >
> > > you can feed them purées
> > > and baby bottles of juice,
> > > then change their diapers
> > > when they wet and drop a deuce
> > >
> > > everybody pees and poops
> > > so what was i so uptight about?
> > >
> > > it seems we’re all hollow tubes
> > > made to act, eat, and drink
> > > put in some food and some liquid
> > > then out comes the waste...
> > > what’s a person to think?
> > >
> > > who are we, really
> > > does anybody know?
> > > where are we, really?
> > > where do we go...
> > > when we finally leave our bodies
> > > this thing they call soul?
> > >
> > > are we just beings
> > > in the material world,
> > > shadowy spirits unseen?
> > > ghosts flying ‘round
> > > inside a machine?
> > > our bodies all sharing
> > > one communally-planned dream
> > > of hosts floating freely
> > > voices dancing on strings?
> > > where does the soul go
> > > after we die?
> > >
> > > i don’t know much
> > > about any of these things...
> > > i never had a dolly
> > > who could dance or sing
> > > certainly never one
> > > who heeded nature’s call...
> > > i never really had
> > > a doll of any kind at all
> > > but i wasn’t missing anything
> > > i never wanted one...
> > > to me they didn’t seem
> > > like they would be all that much fun
> > > i had a few books
> > > and some records
> > > which i somehow collected,
> > > and my birds, and my fishes
> > > and a few little wishes...
> > >
> > > and now
> > > i don’t have a baby, either
> > >
> > > my dog is dead
> > > i live alone
> > > feed myself
> > > and wipe my own ass...
> > > at least for now
> > > as best i can
> > > yeah, it’s a real gas
> > >
> > > yes, i don’t have
> > > my very own baby,
> > > perhaps that was even
> > > a good thing...maybe
> > >
> > > my cousin got hit by a car
> > > two cousins, in fact
> > > in two separate accidents
> > > yet both were still hit
> > > one of them lived
> > > the other one died
> > > i even had a cousin
> > > who committed suicide
> > >
> > > i never played with a dolly
> > > what kind of plan is this
> > > when judas betrayed jesus
> > > he did so with a kiss
> > >
> > > so i just have to stop and wonder,
> > > all about me,
> > > how things might have turned out
> > > differently,
> > > if i had had a doll
> > > who poops and pees?
> > >
> > > maybe i would have been more prepared
> > > and more willing to play along
> > > where the goal of the brain is reproduction,
> > > in this planet’s never-ending song
> > >
> > > then again, maybe not
> > > it’s probably all just a crock
> > > ask hitler what he thought
> > > when he looked around, too
> > > and asked himself, what am i to do
> > > with all of these jews?
> > >
> > > i guess i, myself,
> > > just don’t see...
> > > the point of it all,
> > > this point to be...
> > > where everyone plays along
> > > and is all but the same
> > > making more and more babies
> > > human links in a chain
> > > never stopping to ask
> > > who designed this whole game
> > >
> > > maybe i’m on the outside
> > > of whatever side they’re all on…
> > > where every day is a struggle
> > > and my troubles weigh a ton
> > >
> > > what do little girls do
> > > with their babies
> > > when they grow up?
> > >
> > > Jolene
> >
> > The idea that one can grow up to have an unfulfilled adult life due to the lack of gender conditioning toys during childhood is an interesting one.. For the past 40+ years, psychologists have been advising *against* gender typing children, and the results of a study investigating whether children raised without gender typing had happy and/or fulfilling adulthoods would be interesting.
> >
> > Unfortunately, this poem is all over the place: breaking off into tangents regarding Jesus and Judas, Hitler and the Holocaust, and the various deaths of the speaker's cousins (not to mention philosophical speculations on the existence of a soul). Not only is the poem unable to stay focused on a single topic, but it randomly breaks in and out of rhyme (with many of the latter seeming forced).
> >
> > If you were to cut out all of the extraneous material and stick to the speaker's inability to fit into a happy, traditional adult role -- and keep it strictly unrhymed free verse, you might end up with a decent poem.
> I have a feminist children's story, I can't find it online (!) but i think it was called the girl with the magic hat. she goes to a world where she resolves that anybody's toys can be for anyone, where there was a wall separating the two genders, so in the end, no just boys' toys or girls' toys, just kids' toys. it was a great, pretty memorable story, sorry I don't recall it better just now. i'll have to go look at it again some day.
>
> i don't see how talking about kissing as a means to put someone to death, to betray them and thus lead up to it, is off-topic when discussing the confusing realities behind love and marriage (and reproduction), making babies, which some people, mostly little girls, are just dying for, to do, where as you learn the today's culture and tradition, the intro is kissing and is all romantic and sweet, and marriages are replete with doves and swans and ice sculptures and a beautiful silk sequined dress or whatever, and then this leads to bearing children and raising them, which is the greatest responsibility a human can take on, the most serious job you can undertake pretty much, bringing new human life into the world, and most everybody does it, you don't even need a license, the opportunity is given out freely by the creator to just about nearly any idiot, because, well, that's just what we do. we make and raise babies. (most people) and if you don't, you are often frowned upon for being selfish, like how my new dentist did to me, spoke to me condescendingly and mockingly, saying my name over and over and over while speaking to me, with a touch of sarcasm, just a subtle hint, mocking the way i spoke (kinda casual, with "likes" and exuberance at first as opposed to more conservatively and traditionally adult), and then talking about their kids, like, that's what you do in life, it's their turn now, we focus on the kids, as if i was all wrong, and that's why I suffer, because I'm trying to keep my identity as rachel, and not turn into so-and-so's mom according to nature's plan (?), when this nature made hitler and sanctioned the holocaust, knowing i am an american jew and not a jewish american, the rest of the class apparently either not paying attention in class in hebrew school or had amnesia or g-d only knows what, as to what we were learning, ie., the nuremburg laws, hitler, the final solution, holocaust and those jews had insisted they were all fervent patriotic germans, first, and well, you know what happened, and this example being is presented as a synecdoche for all bad things in the world. it was really awful (the new dentist, how he spoke to me.)
>
> and i faced the very same issue, when thinking about what are we doing here, this "game," of creation, the making of babies that girls seem to want and are conditioned to dream about so devotedly. hitler wanting to create, to be an artist and getting rejected by the academic artistic community (probably of lots of jews?), and well, he decided to be the father to the german people instead, having people heil his is last name, and raise them up with his phony anti-semitic propaganda, and well, we all know what he did instead of being an artist or raising his own traditional family, anyway, and i wrote about it, following thinking about procreating, imagining going to synagogue, after i met bob and was back in weho, and asking all the kids what they thought of the world, the planet, like, what are we doing here, isn't it horrible??? this makes no sense....unless you are a eccentric and/or an irritating solipsist or something.
>
> and along those lines, it just makes you wonder what the whole thing is about, like soul? what does that mean? is that a word for someone who believes in an afterlife or reincarnation or what? is it scientifically sound, or just more hokey brain activity to kill time and be busy with "intellectual activity?"
>
> so i really don't see as to how any of these inclusions are in any way tangential and off-topic.
>
> iow, that if you had a real life doll, you would feel life isn't all that bad after all, as some people are so uptight about the digestive system, more ready to engage in it and play along, and think that it's not like a punishment, or lead by a very strict jealous creator g-d, who made hitler etc....like if you take it as a pleasure, food, you have to give it back, like take a shit, or if you eat that much of it and don't want it to show, and thus be maligned and ostracized by all your peers and/or colleagues for not fitting in or succumbing to sin, throw up or something, or exercise like crazy, like michael phelp, who was doing it the other way around, though, just using him as an example cuz he was able to consume 12,000 calories a day. pizzas, pastas, it was CRAZY cool. but all that swimming...not many of us can be that athletic.
>
> and about the siblings, well, again, it starts all sweet, like rachel n' bobby sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g....then all comes crashing down, kids are getting run over because almost nobody is getting high quality driving instructions, i won't even drive anymore, it's so awful out there with dangerous drivers, i'm terrified of many lyft drivers, they are so much worse than the taxi drivers who were professional, and things are just getting worse, and well, i said about my sibilings, or kids getting shot now almost every other day in the US, just going to school!!!!!! and with global warming, you know, most sane educated people are reconsidering this whole design, of whether or not they should bring children into this world, not to mention the proliferation of LGBTQ+, also asking many of the same kinds of question as to gender and sex and some even, procreation.
>
> or, like the newly married young man on his honeymoon said in the bar to a fellow customer, in the comedy "get him to the greek," why did G-D have to put a playground next to a sewage system!?!??!???!?
>
> so there, you professional poet. that's my apology. hope it was good enough for you.
>
> oh ps about random rhymes? you're just not hearing my rhythm well. to me, it flows perfectly. however, i could suspect that to someone as a first time reader, it would be difficult to know in advance how it is supposed to flow. but once you know, you can HEAR IT, the rhythm, and it's actually really nice. (imopho)
>
> ps the changes i made are not included in this copy above.

Click here to read the complete article

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 9:36:48 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 6:44:42 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:08:38 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > > > real life doll
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > a little girl
> > > > plays with her dolly
> > > > her very own baby
> > > > to keep her company
> > > >
> > > > she holds her
> > > > carries her around
> > > > sleeps with her
> > > > they hug and cuddle
> > > > maybe even feeds her
> > > >
> > > > some dolls even
> > > > eat and drink
> > > > then pee and poop...
> > > > yes, believe it or not
> > > > it’s really true
> > > >
> > > > you can feed them purées
> > > > and baby bottles of juice,
> > > > then change their diapers
> > > > when they wet and drop a deuce
> > > >
> > > > everybody pees and poops
> > > > so what was i so uptight about?
> > > >
> > > > it seems we’re all hollow tubes
> > > > made to act, eat, and drink
> > > > put in some food and some liquid
> > > > then out comes the waste...
> > > > what’s a person to think?
> > > >
> > > > who are we, really
> > > > does anybody know?
> > > > where are we, really?
> > > > where do we go...
> > > > when we finally leave our bodies
> > > > this thing they call soul?
> > > >
> > > > are we just beings
> > > > in the material world,
> > > > shadowy spirits unseen?
> > > > ghosts flying ‘round
> > > > inside a machine?
> > > > our bodies all sharing
> > > > one communally-planned dream
> > > > of hosts floating freely
> > > > voices dancing on strings?
> > > > where does the soul go
> > > > after we die?
> > > >
> > > > i don’t know much
> > > > about any of these things...
> > > > i never had a dolly
> > > > who could dance or sing
> > > > certainly never one
> > > > who heeded nature’s call...
> > > > i never really had
> > > > a doll of any kind at all
> > > > but i wasn’t missing anything
> > > > i never wanted one...
> > > > to me they didn’t seem
> > > > like they would be all that much fun
> > > > i had a few books
> > > > and some records
> > > > which i somehow collected,
> > > > and my birds, and my fishes
> > > > and a few little wishes...
> > > >
> > > > and now
> > > > i don’t have a baby, either
> > > >
> > > > my dog is dead
> > > > i live alone
> > > > feed myself
> > > > and wipe my own ass...
> > > > at least for now
> > > > as best i can
> > > > yeah, it’s a real gas
> > > >
> > > > yes, i don’t have
> > > > my very own baby,
> > > > perhaps that was even
> > > > a good thing...maybe
> > > >
> > > > my cousin got hit by a car
> > > > two cousins, in fact
> > > > in two separate accidents
> > > > yet both were still hit
> > > > one of them lived
> > > > the other one died
> > > > i even had a cousin
> > > > who committed suicide
> > > >
> > > > i never played with a dolly
> > > > what kind of plan is this
> > > > when judas betrayed jesus
> > > > he did so with a kiss
> > > >
> > > > so i just have to stop and wonder,
> > > > all about me,
> > > > how things might have turned out
> > > > differently,
> > > > if i had had a doll
> > > > who poops and pees?
> > > >
> > > > maybe i would have been more prepared
> > > > and more willing to play along
> > > > where the goal of the brain is reproduction,
> > > > in this planet’s never-ending song
> > > >
> > > > then again, maybe not
> > > > it’s probably all just a crock
> > > > ask hitler what he thought
> > > > when he looked around, too
> > > > and asked himself, what am i to do
> > > > with all of these jews?
> > > >
> > > > i guess i, myself,
> > > > just don’t see...
> > > > the point of it all,
> > > > this point to be...
> > > > where everyone plays along
> > > > and is all but the same
> > > > making more and more babies
> > > > human links in a chain
> > > > never stopping to ask
> > > > who designed this whole game
> > > >
> > > > maybe i’m on the outside
> > > > of whatever side they’re all on…
> > > > where every day is a struggle
> > > > and my troubles weigh a ton
> > > >
> > > > what do little girls do
> > > > with their babies
> > > > when they grow up?
> > > >
> > > > Jolene
> > >
> > > The idea that one can grow up to have an unfulfilled adult life due to the lack of gender conditioning toys during childhood is an interesting one. For the past 40+ years, psychologists have been advising *against* gender typing children, and the results of a study investigating whether children raised without gender typing had happy and/or fulfilling adulthoods would be interesting.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, this poem is all over the place: breaking off into tangents regarding Jesus and Judas, Hitler and the Holocaust, and the various deaths of the speaker's cousins (not to mention philosophical speculations on the existence of a soul). Not only is the poem unable to stay focused on a single topic, but it randomly breaks in and out of rhyme (with many of the latter seeming forced).
> > >
> > > If you were to cut out all of the extraneous material and stick to the speaker's inability to fit into a happy, traditional adult role -- and keep it strictly unrhymed free verse, you might end up with a decent poem.
> > I have a feminist children's story, I can't find it online (!) but i think it was called the girl with the magic hat. she goes to a world where she resolves that anybody's toys can be for anyone, where there was a wall separating the two genders, so in the end, no just boys' toys or girls' toys, just kids' toys. it was a great, pretty memorable story, sorry I don't recall it better just now. i'll have to go look at it again some day.
> >
> > i don't see how talking about kissing as a means to put someone to death, to betray them and thus lead up to it, is off-topic when discussing the confusing realities behind love and marriage (and reproduction), making babies, which some people, mostly little girls, are just dying for, to do, where as you learn the today's culture and tradition, the intro is kissing and is all romantic and sweet, and marriages are replete with doves and swans and ice sculptures and a beautiful silk sequined dress or whatever, and then this leads to bearing children and raising them, which is the greatest responsibility a human can take on, the most serious job you can undertake pretty much, bringing new human life into the world, and most everybody does it, you don't even need a license, the opportunity is given out freely by the creator to just about nearly any idiot, because, well, that's just what we do. we make and raise babies. (most people) and if you don't, you are often frowned upon for being selfish, like how my new dentist did to me, spoke to me condescendingly and mockingly, saying my name over and over and over while speaking to me, with a touch of sarcasm, just a subtle hint, mocking the way i spoke (kinda casual, with "likes" and exuberance at first as opposed to more conservatively and traditionally adult), and then talking about their kids, like, that's what you do in life, it's their turn now, we focus on the kids, as if i was all wrong, and that's why I suffer, because I'm trying to keep my identity as rachel, and not turn into so-and-so's mom according to nature's plan (?), when this nature made hitler and sanctioned the holocaust, knowing i am an american jew and not a jewish american, the rest of the class apparently either not paying attention in class in hebrew school or had amnesia or g-d only knows what, as to what we were learning, ie., the nuremburg laws, hitler, the final solution, holocaust and those jews had insisted they were all fervent patriotic germans, first, and well, you know what happened, and this example being is presented as a synecdoche for all bad things in the world. it was really awful (the new dentist, how he spoke to me.)
> >
> > and i faced the very same issue, when thinking about what are we doing here, this "game," of creation, the making of babies that girls seem to want and are conditioned to dream about so devotedly. hitler wanting to create, to be an artist and getting rejected by the academic artistic community (probably of lots of jews?), and well, he decided to be the father to the german people instead, having people heil his is last name, and raise them up with his phony anti-semitic propaganda, and well, we all know what he did instead of being an artist or raising his own traditional family, anyway, and i wrote about it, following thinking about procreating, imagining going to synagogue, after i met bob and was back in weho, and asking all the kids what they thought of the world, the planet, like, what are we doing here, isn't it horrible??? this makes no sense....unless you are a eccentric and/or an irritating solipsist or something.
> >
> > and along those lines, it just makes you wonder what the whole thing is about, like soul? what does that mean? is that a word for someone who believes in an afterlife or reincarnation or what? is it scientifically sound, or just more hokey brain activity to kill time and be busy with "intellectual activity?"
> >
> > so i really don't see as to how any of these inclusions are in any way tangential and off-topic.
> >
> > iow, that if you had a real life doll, you would feel life isn't all that bad after all, as some people are so uptight about the digestive system, more ready to engage in it and play along, and think that it's not like a punishment, or lead by a very strict jealous creator g-d, who made hitler etc...like if you take it as a pleasure, food, you have to give it back, like take a shit, or if you eat that much of it and don't want it to show, and thus be maligned and ostracized by all your peers and/or colleagues for not fitting in or succumbing to sin, throw up or something, or exercise like crazy, like michael phelp, who was doing it the other way around, though, just using him as an example cuz he was able to consume 12,000 calories a day. pizzas, pastas, it was CRAZY cool. but all that swimming...not many of us can be that athletic.
> >
> > and about the siblings, well, again, it starts all sweet, like rachel n' bobby sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g....then all comes crashing down, kids are getting run over because almost nobody is getting high quality driving instructions, i won't even drive anymore, it's so awful out there with dangerous drivers, i'm terrified of many lyft drivers, they are so much worse than the taxi drivers who were professional, and things are just getting worse, and well, i said about my sibilings, or kids getting shot now almost every other day in the US, just going to school!!!!!! and with global warming, you know, most sane educated people are reconsidering this whole design, of whether or not they should bring children into this world, not to mention the proliferation of LGBTQ+, also asking many of the same kinds of question as to gender and sex and some even, procreation.
> >
> > or, like the newly married young man on his honeymoon said in the bar to a fellow customer, in the comedy "get him to the greek," why did G-D have to put a playground next to a sewage system!?!??!???!?
> >
> > so there, you professional poet. that's my apology. hope it was good enough for you.
> >
> > oh ps about random rhymes? you're just not hearing my rhythm well. to me, it flows perfectly. however, i could suspect that to someone as a first time reader, it would be difficult to know in advance how it is supposed to flow. but once you know, you can HEAR IT, the rhythm, and it's actually really nice. (imopho)
> >
> > ps the changes i made are not included in this copy above.
> Rhythm and rhyme are different things. The rhythm is the meter (or beat).
>
> As per the tangential nature of the narrative, your apology only makes me think of a line from "Hamlet" regarding the nature of protestation.
>
> Like I said, it's a good idea -- but it needs to focus on the message it is trying to get across.

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 9:54:30 PM UTC-7, Rachel wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 9:36:48 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 6:44:42 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:08:38 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > > > > real life doll
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > a little girl
> > > > > plays with her dolly
> > > > > her very own baby
> > > > > to keep her company
> > > > >
> > > > > she holds her
> > > > > carries her around
> > > > > sleeps with her
> > > > > they hug and cuddle
> > > > > maybe even feeds her
> > > > >
> > > > > some dolls even
> > > > > eat and drink
> > > > > then pee and poop...
> > > > > yes, believe it or not
> > > > > it’s really true
> > > > >
> > > > > you can feed them purées
> > > > > and baby bottles of juice,
> > > > > then change their diapers
> > > > > when they wet and drop a deuce
> > > > >
> > > > > everybody pees and poops
> > > > > so what was i so uptight about?
> > > > >
> > > > > it seems we’re all hollow tubes
> > > > > made to act, eat, and drink
> > > > > put in some food and some liquid
> > > > > then out comes the waste...
> > > > > what’s a person to think?
> > > > >
> > > > > who are we, really
> > > > > does anybody know?
> > > > > where are we, really?
> > > > > where do we go...
> > > > > when we finally leave our bodies
> > > > > this thing they call soul?
> > > > >
> > > > > are we just beings
> > > > > in the material world,
> > > > > shadowy spirits unseen?
> > > > > ghosts flying ‘round
> > > > > inside a machine?
> > > > > our bodies all sharing
> > > > > one communally-planned dream
> > > > > of hosts floating freely
> > > > > voices dancing on strings?
> > > > > where does the soul go
> > > > > after we die?
> > > > >
> > > > > i don’t know much
> > > > > about any of these things...
> > > > > i never had a dolly
> > > > > who could dance or sing
> > > > > certainly never one
> > > > > who heeded nature’s call...
> > > > > i never really had
> > > > > a doll of any kind at all
> > > > > but i wasn’t missing anything
> > > > > i never wanted one...
> > > > > to me they didn’t seem
> > > > > like they would be all that much fun
> > > > > i had a few books
> > > > > and some records
> > > > > which i somehow collected,
> > > > > and my birds, and my fishes
> > > > > and a few little wishes...
> > > > >
> > > > > and now
> > > > > i don’t have a baby, either
> > > > >
> > > > > my dog is dead
> > > > > i live alone
> > > > > feed myself
> > > > > and wipe my own ass...
> > > > > at least for now
> > > > > as best i can
> > > > > yeah, it’s a real gas
> > > > >
> > > > > yes, i don’t have
> > > > > my very own baby,
> > > > > perhaps that was even
> > > > > a good thing...maybe
> > > > >
> > > > > my cousin got hit by a car
> > > > > two cousins, in fact
> > > > > in two separate accidents
> > > > > yet both were still hit
> > > > > one of them lived
> > > > > the other one died
> > > > > i even had a cousin
> > > > > who committed suicide
> > > > >
> > > > > i never played with a dolly
> > > > > what kind of plan is this
> > > > > when judas betrayed jesus
> > > > > he did so with a kiss
> > > > >
> > > > > so i just have to stop and wonder,
> > > > > all about me,
> > > > > how things might have turned out
> > > > > differently,
> > > > > if i had had a doll
> > > > > who poops and pees?
> > > > >
> > > > > maybe i would have been more prepared
> > > > > and more willing to play along
> > > > > where the goal of the brain is reproduction,
> > > > > in this planet’s never-ending song
> > > > >
> > > > > then again, maybe not
> > > > > it’s probably all just a crock
> > > > > ask hitler what he thought
> > > > > when he looked around, too
> > > > > and asked himself, what am i to do
> > > > > with all of these jews?
> > > > >
> > > > > i guess i, myself,
> > > > > just don’t see...
> > > > > the point of it all,
> > > > > this point to be...
> > > > > where everyone plays along
> > > > > and is all but the same
> > > > > making more and more babies
> > > > > human links in a chain
> > > > > never stopping to ask
> > > > > who designed this whole game
> > > > >
> > > > > maybe i’m on the outside
> > > > > of whatever side they’re all on…
> > > > > where every day is a struggle
> > > > > and my troubles weigh a ton
> > > > >
> > > > > what do little girls do
> > > > > with their babies
> > > > > when they grow up?
> > > > >
> > > > > Jolene
> > > >
> > > > The idea that one can grow up to have an unfulfilled adult life due to the lack of gender conditioning toys during childhood is an interesting one. For the past 40+ years, psychologists have been advising *against* gender typing children, and the results of a study investigating whether children raised without gender typing had happy and/or fulfilling adulthoods would be interesting.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, this poem is all over the place: breaking off into tangents regarding Jesus and Judas, Hitler and the Holocaust, and the various deaths of the speaker's cousins (not to mention philosophical speculations on the existence of a soul). Not only is the poem unable to stay focused on a single topic, but it randomly breaks in and out of rhyme (with many of the latter seeming forced).
> > > >
> > > > If you were to cut out all of the extraneous material and stick to the speaker's inability to fit into a happy, traditional adult role -- and keep it strictly unrhymed free verse, you might end up with a decent poem.
> > > I have a feminist children's story, I can't find it online (!) but i think it was called the girl with the magic hat. she goes to a world where she resolves that anybody's toys can be for anyone, where there was a wall separating the two genders, so in the end, no just boys' toys or girls' toys, just kids' toys. it was a great, pretty memorable story, sorry I don't recall it better just now. i'll have to go look at it again some day.
> > >
> > > i don't see how talking about kissing as a means to put someone to death, to betray them and thus lead up to it, is off-topic when discussing the confusing realities behind love and marriage (and reproduction), making babies, which some people, mostly little girls, are just dying for, to do, where as you learn the today's culture and tradition, the intro is kissing and is all romantic and sweet, and marriages are replete with doves and swans and ice sculptures and a beautiful silk sequined dress or whatever, and then this leads to bearing children and raising them, which is the greatest responsibility a human can take on, the most serious job you can undertake pretty much, bringing new human life into the world, and most everybody does it, you don't even need a license, the opportunity is given out freely by the creator to just about nearly any idiot, because, well, that's just what we do. we make and raise babies. (most people) and if you don't, you are often frowned upon for being selfish, like how my new dentist did to me, spoke to me condescendingly and mockingly, saying my name over and over and over while speaking to me, with a touch of sarcasm, just a subtle hint, mocking the way i spoke (kinda casual, with "likes" and exuberance at first as opposed to more conservatively and traditionally adult), and then talking about their kids, like, that's what you do in life, it's their turn now, we focus on the kids, as if i was all wrong, and that's why I suffer, because I'm trying to keep my identity as rachel, and not turn into so-and-so's mom according to nature's plan (?), when this nature made hitler and sanctioned the holocaust, knowing i am an american jew and not a jewish american, the rest of the class apparently either not paying attention in class in hebrew school or had amnesia or g-d only knows what, as to what we were learning, ie., the nuremburg laws, hitler, the final solution, holocaust and those jews had insisted they were all fervent patriotic germans, first, and well, you know what happened, and this example being is presented as a synecdoche for all bad things in the world. it was really awful (the new dentist, how he spoke to me.)
> > >
> > > and i faced the very same issue, when thinking about what are we doing here, this "game," of creation, the making of babies that girls seem to want and are conditioned to dream about so devotedly. hitler wanting to create, to be an artist and getting rejected by the academic artistic community (probably of lots of jews?), and well, he decided to be the father to the german people instead, having people heil his is last name, and raise them up with his phony anti-semitic propaganda, and well, we all know what he did instead of being an artist or raising his own traditional family, anyway, and i wrote about it, following thinking about procreating, imagining going to synagogue, after i met bob and was back in weho, and asking all the kids what they thought of the world, the planet, like, what are we doing here, isn't it horrible??? this makes no sense....unless you are a eccentric and/or an irritating solipsist or something.
> > >
> > > and along those lines, it just makes you wonder what the whole thing is about, like soul? what does that mean? is that a word for someone who believes in an afterlife or reincarnation or what? is it scientifically sound, or just more hokey brain activity to kill time and be busy with "intellectual activity?"
> > >
> > > so i really don't see as to how any of these inclusions are in any way tangential and off-topic.
> > >
> > > iow, that if you had a real life doll, you would feel life isn't all that bad after all, as some people are so uptight about the digestive system, more ready to engage in it and play along, and think that it's not like a punishment, or lead by a very strict jealous creator g-d, who made hitler etc...like if you take it as a pleasure, food, you have to give it back, like take a shit, or if you eat that much of it and don't want it to show, and thus be maligned and ostracized by all your peers and/or colleagues for not fitting in or succumbing to sin, throw up or something, or exercise like crazy, like michael phelp, who was doing it the other way around, though, just using him as an example cuz he was able to consume 12,000 calories a day. pizzas, pastas, it was CRAZY cool. but all that swimming...not many of us can be that athletic.
> > >
> > > and about the siblings, well, again, it starts all sweet, like rachel n' bobby sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g....then all comes crashing down, kids are getting run over because almost nobody is getting high quality driving instructions, i won't even drive anymore, it's so awful out there with dangerous drivers, i'm terrified of many lyft drivers, they are so much worse than the taxi drivers who were professional, and things are just getting worse, and well, i said about my sibilings, or kids getting shot now almost every other day in the US, just going to school!!!!!! and with global warming, you know, most sane educated people are reconsidering this whole design, of whether or not they should bring children into this world, not to mention the proliferation of LGBTQ+, also asking many of the same kinds of question as to gender and sex and some even, procreation.
> > >
> > > or, like the newly married young man on his honeymoon said in the bar to a fellow customer, in the comedy "get him to the greek," why did G-D have to put a playground next to a sewage system!?!??!???!?
> > >
> > > so there, you professional poet. that's my apology. hope it was good enough for you.
> > >
> > > oh ps about random rhymes? you're just not hearing my rhythm well. to me, it flows perfectly. however, i could suspect that to someone as a first time reader, it would be difficult to know in advance how it is supposed to flow. but once you know, you can HEAR IT, the rhythm, and it's actually really nice. (imopho)
> > >
> > > ps the changes i made are not included in this copy above.
> > Rhythm and rhyme are different things. The rhythm is the meter (or beat).
> >
> > As per the tangential nature of the narrative, your apology only makes me think of a line from "Hamlet" regarding the nature of protestation.
> >
> > Like I said, it's a good idea -- but it needs to focus on the message it is trying to get across.
> there is no message

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 9:59:11 PM UTC-7, Rachel wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 9:54:30 PM UTC-7, Rachel wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 9:36:48 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 6:44:42 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:08:38 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > > > > > real life doll
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > a little girl
> > > > > > plays with her dolly
> > > > > > her very own baby
> > > > > > to keep her company
> > > > > >
> > > > > > she holds her
> > > > > > carries her around
> > > > > > sleeps with her
> > > > > > they hug and cuddle
> > > > > > maybe even feeds her
> > > > > >
> > > > > > some dolls even
> > > > > > eat and drink
> > > > > > then pee and poop...
> > > > > > yes, believe it or not
> > > > > > it’s really true
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you can feed them purées
> > > > > > and baby bottles of juice,
> > > > > > then change their diapers
> > > > > > when they wet and drop a deuce
> > > > > >
> > > > > > everybody pees and poops
> > > > > > so what was i so uptight about?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > it seems we’re all hollow tubes
> > > > > > made to act, eat, and drink
> > > > > > put in some food and some liquid
> > > > > > then out comes the waste...
> > > > > > what’s a person to think?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > who are we, really
> > > > > > does anybody know?
> > > > > > where are we, really?
> > > > > > where do we go...
> > > > > > when we finally leave our bodies
> > > > > > this thing they call soul?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > are we just beings
> > > > > > in the material world,
> > > > > > shadowy spirits unseen?
> > > > > > ghosts flying ‘round
> > > > > > inside a machine?
> > > > > > our bodies all sharing
> > > > > > one communally-planned dream
> > > > > > of hosts floating freely
> > > > > > voices dancing on strings?
> > > > > > where does the soul go
> > > > > > after we die?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i don’t know much
> > > > > > about any of these things...
> > > > > > i never had a dolly
> > > > > > who could dance or sing
> > > > > > certainly never one
> > > > > > who heeded nature’s call...
> > > > > > i never really had
> > > > > > a doll of any kind at all
> > > > > > but i wasn’t missing anything
> > > > > > i never wanted one...
> > > > > > to me they didn’t seem
> > > > > > like they would be all that much fun
> > > > > > i had a few books
> > > > > > and some records
> > > > > > which i somehow collected,
> > > > > > and my birds, and my fishes
> > > > > > and a few little wishes...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and now
> > > > > > i don’t have a baby, either
> > > > > >
> > > > > > my dog is dead
> > > > > > i live alone
> > > > > > feed myself
> > > > > > and wipe my own ass...
> > > > > > at least for now
> > > > > > as best i can
> > > > > > yeah, it’s a real gas
> > > > > >
> > > > > > yes, i don’t have
> > > > > > my very own baby,
> > > > > > perhaps that was even
> > > > > > a good thing...maybe
> > > > > >
> > > > > > my cousin got hit by a car
> > > > > > two cousins, in fact
> > > > > > in two separate accidents
> > > > > > yet both were still hit
> > > > > > one of them lived
> > > > > > the other one died
> > > > > > i even had a cousin
> > > > > > who committed suicide
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i never played with a dolly
> > > > > > what kind of plan is this
> > > > > > when judas betrayed jesus
> > > > > > he did so with a kiss
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so i just have to stop and wonder,
> > > > > > all about me,
> > > > > > how things might have turned out
> > > > > > differently,
> > > > > > if i had had a doll
> > > > > > who poops and pees?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > maybe i would have been more prepared
> > > > > > and more willing to play along
> > > > > > where the goal of the brain is reproduction,
> > > > > > in this planet’s never-ending song
> > > > > >
> > > > > > then again, maybe not
> > > > > > it’s probably all just a crock
> > > > > > ask hitler what he thought
> > > > > > when he looked around, too
> > > > > > and asked himself, what am i to do
> > > > > > with all of these jews?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i guess i, myself,
> > > > > > just don’t see...
> > > > > > the point of it all,
> > > > > > this point to be...
> > > > > > where everyone plays along
> > > > > > and is all but the same
> > > > > > making more and more babies
> > > > > > human links in a chain
> > > > > > never stopping to ask
> > > > > > who designed this whole game
> > > > > >
> > > > > > maybe i’m on the outside
> > > > > > of whatever side they’re all on…
> > > > > > where every day is a struggle
> > > > > > and my troubles weigh a ton
> > > > > >
> > > > > > what do little girls do
> > > > > > with their babies
> > > > > > when they grow up?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jolene
> > > > >
> > > > > The idea that one can grow up to have an unfulfilled adult life due to the lack of gender conditioning toys during childhood is an interesting one. For the past 40+ years, psychologists have been advising *against* gender typing children, and the results of a study investigating whether children raised without gender typing had happy and/or fulfilling adulthoods would be interesting.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, this poem is all over the place: breaking off into tangents regarding Jesus and Judas, Hitler and the Holocaust, and the various deaths of the speaker's cousins (not to mention philosophical speculations on the existence of a soul). Not only is the poem unable to stay focused on a single topic, but it randomly breaks in and out of rhyme (with many of the latter seeming forced).
> > > > >
> > > > > If you were to cut out all of the extraneous material and stick to the speaker's inability to fit into a happy, traditional adult role -- and keep it strictly unrhymed free verse, you might end up with a decent poem..
> > > > I have a feminist children's story, I can't find it online (!) but i think it was called the girl with the magic hat. she goes to a world where she resolves that anybody's toys can be for anyone, where there was a wall separating the two genders, so in the end, no just boys' toys or girls' toys, just kids' toys. it was a great, pretty memorable story, sorry I don't recall it better just now. i'll have to go look at it again some day.
> > > >
> > > > i don't see how talking about kissing as a means to put someone to death, to betray them and thus lead up to it, is off-topic when discussing the confusing realities behind love and marriage (and reproduction), making babies, which some people, mostly little girls, are just dying for, to do, where as you learn the today's culture and tradition, the intro is kissing and is all romantic and sweet, and marriages are replete with doves and swans and ice sculptures and a beautiful silk sequined dress or whatever, and then this leads to bearing children and raising them, which is the greatest responsibility a human can take on, the most serious job you can undertake pretty much, bringing new human life into the world, and most everybody does it, you don't even need a license, the opportunity is given out freely by the creator to just about nearly any idiot, because, well, that's just what we do. we make and raise babies. (most people) and if you don't, you are often frowned upon for being selfish, like how my new dentist did to me, spoke to me condescendingly and mockingly, saying my name over and over and over while speaking to me, with a touch of sarcasm, just a subtle hint, mocking the way i spoke (kinda casual, with "likes" and exuberance at first as opposed to more conservatively and traditionally adult), and then talking about their kids, like, that's what you do in life, it's their turn now, we focus on the kids, as if i was all wrong, and that's why I suffer, because I'm trying to keep my identity as rachel, and not turn into so-and-so's mom according to nature's plan (?), when this nature made hitler and sanctioned the holocaust, knowing i am an american jew and not a jewish american, the rest of the class apparently either not paying attention in class in hebrew school or had amnesia or g-d only knows what, as to what we were learning, ie., the nuremburg laws, hitler, the final solution, holocaust and those jews had insisted they were all fervent patriotic germans, first, and well, you know what happened, and this example being is presented as a synecdoche for all bad things in the world. it was really awful (the new dentist, how he spoke to me.)
> > > >
> > > > and i faced the very same issue, when thinking about what are we doing here, this "game," of creation, the making of babies that girls seem to want and are conditioned to dream about so devotedly. hitler wanting to create, to be an artist and getting rejected by the academic artistic community (probably of lots of jews?), and well, he decided to be the father to the german people instead, having people heil his is last name, and raise them up with his phony anti-semitic propaganda, and well, we all know what he did instead of being an artist or raising his own traditional family, anyway, and i wrote about it, following thinking about procreating, imagining going to synagogue, after i met bob and was back in weho, and asking all the kids what they thought of the world, the planet, like, what are we doing here, isn't it horrible??? this makes no sense....unless you are a eccentric and/or an irritating solipsist or something.
> > > >
> > > > and along those lines, it just makes you wonder what the whole thing is about, like soul? what does that mean? is that a word for someone who believes in an afterlife or reincarnation or what? is it scientifically sound, or just more hokey brain activity to kill time and be busy with "intellectual activity?"
> > > >
> > > > so i really don't see as to how any of these inclusions are in any way tangential and off-topic.
> > > >
> > > > iow, that if you had a real life doll, you would feel life isn't all that bad after all, as some people are so uptight about the digestive system, more ready to engage in it and play along, and think that it's not like a punishment, or lead by a very strict jealous creator g-d, who made hitler etc...like if you take it as a pleasure, food, you have to give it back, like take a shit, or if you eat that much of it and don't want it to show, and thus be maligned and ostracized by all your peers and/or colleagues for not fitting in or succumbing to sin, throw up or something, or exercise like crazy, like michael phelp, who was doing it the other way around, though, just using him as an example cuz he was able to consume 12,000 calories a day. pizzas, pastas, it was CRAZY cool. but all that swimming...not many of us can be that athletic.
> > > >
> > > > and about the siblings, well, again, it starts all sweet, like rachel n' bobby sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g....then all comes crashing down, kids are getting run over because almost nobody is getting high quality driving instructions, i won't even drive anymore, it's so awful out there with dangerous drivers, i'm terrified of many lyft drivers, they are so much worse than the taxi drivers who were professional, and things are just getting worse, and well, i said about my sibilings, or kids getting shot now almost every other day in the US, just going to school!!!!!! and with global warming, you know, most sane educated people are reconsidering this whole design, of whether or not they should bring children into this world, not to mention the proliferation of LGBTQ+, also asking many of the same kinds of question as to gender and sex and some even, procreation.
> > > >
> > > > or, like the newly married young man on his honeymoon said in the bar to a fellow customer, in the comedy "get him to the greek," why did G-D have to put a playground next to a sewage system!?!??!???!?
> > > >
> > > > so there, you professional poet. that's my apology. hope it was good enough for you.
> > > >
> > > > oh ps about random rhymes? you're just not hearing my rhythm well. to me, it flows perfectly. however, i could suspect that to someone as a first time reader, it would be difficult to know in advance how it is supposed to flow. but once you know, you can HEAR IT, the rhythm, and it's actually really nice. (imopho)
> > > >
> > > > ps the changes i made are not included in this copy above.
> > > Rhythm and rhyme are different things. The rhythm is the meter (or beat).
> > >
> > > As per the tangential nature of the narrative, your apology only makes me think of a line from "Hamlet" regarding the nature of protestation.
> > >
> > > Like I said, it's a good idea -- but it needs to focus on the message it is trying to get across.
> > there is no message
> of course rhythm and rhyme are two different things, but you have to read it with a certain rhythm and emphasis on certain words, to hear the even flow of rhyme.
>
> sure it's not a consistent scheme, but who in the world said poems have to be consistent. this is not natural, anyway.
>
> and who wants to read poetry like, "i think that i shall never see a poem as lovely as a tree" over and over and over.
>
> time to change the diapers!!!!

Rachel wrote:

> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 7:02:39 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 3:27:51 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
>> > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 11:27:35 AM UTC-7, Faraway Star wrote:
>> > > On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 1:36:04 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > alternate
>> > > > but i wasn't missing anything
>> > > > i never wanted one...
>> > > > to me they didn't seem
>> > > > to be all that much fun
>> > > >
>> > > > and then the ending back to the first way
>> > > >
>> > > > what do you do
>> > > > with your babies
>> > > > when they grow up?
>> > > >
>> > > > opinions welcome
>> > > I like, I like a lot...
>> > also. i changed 'round to around. i think it fits better, both rhythmically and phonically
>> Sounds like a good change.

> thanks will! i agree. :)

Good morning Rachel, reading your longer posts now, getting ready to head back to the art project today.

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 2:27:35 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 1:36:04 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> >
> > alternate
> > but i wasn't missing anything
> > i never wanted one...
> > to me they didn't seem
> > to be all that much fun
> >
> > and then the ending back to the first way
> >
> > what do you do
> > with your babies
> > when they grow up?
> >
> > opinions welcome
> I like, I like a lot...

Agreed and seconded.

🙂

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 11:15:28 PM UTC-7, Rachel wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 9:59:11 PM UTC-7, Rachel wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 9:54:30 PM UTC-7, Rachel wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 9:36:48 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 6:44:42 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:08:38 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > > > > > > real life doll
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > a little girl
> > > > > > > plays with her dolly
> > > > > > > her very own baby
> > > > > > > to keep her company
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > she holds her
> > > > > > > carries her around
> > > > > > > sleeps with her
> > > > > > > they hug and cuddle
> > > > > > > maybe even feeds her
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > some dolls even
> > > > > > > eat and drink
> > > > > > > then pee and poop...
> > > > > > > yes, believe it or not
> > > > > > > it’s really true
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > you can feed them purées
> > > > > > > and baby bottles of juice,
> > > > > > > then change their diapers
> > > > > > > when they wet and drop a deuce
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > everybody pees and poops
> > > > > > > so what was i so uptight about?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > it seems we’re all hollow tubes
> > > > > > > made to act, eat, and drink
> > > > > > > put in some food and some liquid
> > > > > > > then out comes the waste...
> > > > > > > what’s a person to think?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > who are we, really
> > > > > > > does anybody know?
> > > > > > > where are we, really?
> > > > > > > where do we go...
> > > > > > > when we finally leave our bodies
> > > > > > > this thing they call soul?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > are we just beings
> > > > > > > in the material world,
> > > > > > > shadowy spirits unseen?
> > > > > > > ghosts flying ‘round
> > > > > > > inside a machine?
> > > > > > > our bodies all sharing
> > > > > > > one communally-planned dream
> > > > > > > of hosts floating freely
> > > > > > > voices dancing on strings?
> > > > > > > where does the soul go
> > > > > > > after we die?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i don’t know much
> > > > > > > about any of these things...
> > > > > > > i never had a dolly
> > > > > > > who could dance or sing
> > > > > > > certainly never one
> > > > > > > who heeded nature’s call...
> > > > > > > i never really had
> > > > > > > a doll of any kind at all
> > > > > > > but i wasn’t missing anything
> > > > > > > i never wanted one...
> > > > > > > to me they didn’t seem
> > > > > > > like they would be all that much fun
> > > > > > > i had a few books
> > > > > > > and some records
> > > > > > > which i somehow collected,
> > > > > > > and my birds, and my fishes
> > > > > > > and a few little wishes...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > and now
> > > > > > > i don’t have a baby, either
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > my dog is dead
> > > > > > > i live alone
> > > > > > > feed myself
> > > > > > > and wipe my own ass...
> > > > > > > at least for now
> > > > > > > as best i can
> > > > > > > yeah, it’s a real gas
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > yes, i don’t have
> > > > > > > my very own baby,
> > > > > > > perhaps that was even
> > > > > > > a good thing...maybe
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > my cousin got hit by a car
> > > > > > > two cousins, in fact
> > > > > > > in two separate accidents
> > > > > > > yet both were still hit
> > > > > > > one of them lived
> > > > > > > the other one died
> > > > > > > i even had a cousin
> > > > > > > who committed suicide
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i never played with a dolly
> > > > > > > what kind of plan is this
> > > > > > > when judas betrayed jesus
> > > > > > > he did so with a kiss
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > so i just have to stop and wonder,
> > > > > > > all about me,
> > > > > > > how things might have turned out
> > > > > > > differently,
> > > > > > > if i had had a doll
> > > > > > > who poops and pees?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > maybe i would have been more prepared
> > > > > > > and more willing to play along
> > > > > > > where the goal of the brain is reproduction,
> > > > > > > in this planet’s never-ending song
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > then again, maybe not
> > > > > > > it’s probably all just a crock
> > > > > > > ask hitler what he thought
> > > > > > > when he looked around, too
> > > > > > > and asked himself, what am i to do
> > > > > > > with all of these jews?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i guess i, myself,
> > > > > > > just don’t see...
> > > > > > > the point of it all,
> > > > > > > this point to be...
> > > > > > > where everyone plays along
> > > > > > > and is all but the same
> > > > > > > making more and more babies
> > > > > > > human links in a chain
> > > > > > > never stopping to ask
> > > > > > > who designed this whole game
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > maybe i’m on the outside
> > > > > > > of whatever side they’re all on…
> > > > > > > where every day is a struggle
> > > > > > > and my troubles weigh a ton
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > what do little girls do
> > > > > > > with their babies
> > > > > > > when they grow up?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jolene
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The idea that one can grow up to have an unfulfilled adult life due to the lack of gender conditioning toys during childhood is an interesting one. For the past 40+ years, psychologists have been advising *against* gender typing children, and the results of a study investigating whether children raised without gender typing had happy and/or fulfilling adulthoods would be interesting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Unfortunately, this poem is all over the place: breaking off into tangents regarding Jesus and Judas, Hitler and the Holocaust, and the various deaths of the speaker's cousins (not to mention philosophical speculations on the existence of a soul). Not only is the poem unable to stay focused on a single topic, but it randomly breaks in and out of rhyme (with many of the latter seeming forced).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you were to cut out all of the extraneous material and stick to the speaker's inability to fit into a happy, traditional adult role -- and keep it strictly unrhymed free verse, you might end up with a decent poem.
> > > > > I have a feminist children's story, I can't find it online (!) but i think it was called the girl with the magic hat. she goes to a world where she resolves that anybody's toys can be for anyone, where there was a wall separating the two genders, so in the end, no just boys' toys or girls' toys, just kids' toys. it was a great, pretty memorable story, sorry I don't recall it better just now. i'll have to go look at it again some day.
> > > > >
> > > > > i don't see how talking about kissing as a means to put someone to death, to betray them and thus lead up to it, is off-topic when discussing the confusing realities behind love and marriage (and reproduction), making babies, which some people, mostly little girls, are just dying for, to do, where as you learn the today's culture and tradition, the intro is kissing and is all romantic and sweet, and marriages are replete with doves and swans and ice sculptures and a beautiful silk sequined dress or whatever, and then this leads to bearing children and raising them, which is the greatest responsibility a human can take on, the most serious job you can undertake pretty much, bringing new human life into the world, and most everybody does it, you don't even need a license, the opportunity is given out freely by the creator to just about nearly any idiot, because, well, that's just what we do. we make and raise babies. (most people) and if you don't, you are often frowned upon for being selfish, like how my new dentist did to me, spoke to me condescendingly and mockingly, saying my name over and over and over while speaking to me, with a touch of sarcasm, just a subtle hint, mocking the way i spoke (kinda casual, with "likes" and exuberance at first as opposed to more conservatively and traditionally adult), and then talking about their kids, like, that's what you do in life, it's their turn now, we focus on the kids, as if i was all wrong, and that's why I suffer, because I'm trying to keep my identity as rachel, and not turn into so-and-so's mom according to nature's plan (?), when this nature made hitler and sanctioned the holocaust, knowing i am an american jew and not a jewish american, the rest of the class apparently either not paying attention in class in hebrew school or had amnesia or g-d only knows what, as to what we were learning, ie., the nuremburg laws, hitler, the final solution, holocaust and those jews had insisted they were all fervent patriotic germans, first, and well, you know what happened, and this example being is presented as a synecdoche for all bad things in the world. it was really awful (the new dentist, how he spoke to me.)
> > > > >
> > > > > and i faced the very same issue, when thinking about what are we doing here, this "game," of creation, the making of babies that girls seem to want and are conditioned to dream about so devotedly. hitler wanting to create, to be an artist and getting rejected by the academic artistic community (probably of lots of jews?), and well, he decided to be the father to the german people instead, having people heil his is last name, and raise them up with his phony anti-semitic propaganda, and well, we all know what he did instead of being an artist or raising his own traditional family, anyway, and i wrote about it, following thinking about procreating, imagining going to synagogue, after i met bob and was back in weho, and asking all the kids what they thought of the world, the planet, like, what are we doing here, isn't it horrible??? this makes no sense....unless you are a eccentric and/or an irritating solipsist or something.
> > > > >
> > > > > and along those lines, it just makes you wonder what the whole thing is about, like soul? what does that mean? is that a word for someone who believes in an afterlife or reincarnation or what? is it scientifically sound, or just more hokey brain activity to kill time and be busy with "intellectual activity?"
> > > > >
> > > > > so i really don't see as to how any of these inclusions are in any way tangential and off-topic.
> > > > >
> > > > > iow, that if you had a real life doll, you would feel life isn't all that bad after all, as some people are so uptight about the digestive system, more ready to engage in it and play along, and think that it's not like a punishment, or lead by a very strict jealous creator g-d, who made hitler etc...like if you take it as a pleasure, food, you have to give it back, like take a shit, or if you eat that much of it and don't want it to show, and thus be maligned and ostracized by all your peers and/or colleagues for not fitting in or succumbing to sin, throw up or something, or exercise like crazy, like michael phelp, who was doing it the other way around, though, just using him as an example cuz he was able to consume 12,000 calories a day. pizzas, pastas, it was CRAZY cool. but all that swimming...not many of us can be that athletic.
> > > > >
> > > > > and about the siblings, well, again, it starts all sweet, like rachel n' bobby sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g....then all comes crashing down, kids are getting run over because almost nobody is getting high quality driving instructions, i won't even drive anymore, it's so awful out there with dangerous drivers, i'm terrified of many lyft drivers, they are so much worse than the taxi drivers who were professional, and things are just getting worse, and well, i said about my sibilings, or kids getting shot now almost every other day in the US, just going to school!!!!!! and with global warming, you know, most sane educated people are reconsidering this whole design, of whether or not they should bring children into this world, not to mention the proliferation of LGBTQ+, also asking many of the same kinds of question as to gender and sex and some even, procreation.
> > > > >
> > > > > or, like the newly married young man on his honeymoon said in the bar to a fellow customer, in the comedy "get him to the greek," why did G-D have to put a playground next to a sewage system!?!??!???!?
> > > > >
> > > > > so there, you professional poet. that's my apology. hope it was good enough for you.
> > > > >
> > > > > oh ps about random rhymes? you're just not hearing my rhythm well.. to me, it flows perfectly. however, i could suspect that to someone as a first time reader, it would be difficult to know in advance how it is supposed to flow. but once you know, you can HEAR IT, the rhythm, and it's actually really nice. (imopho)
> > > > >
> > > > > ps the changes i made are not included in this copy above.
> > > > Rhythm and rhyme are different things. The rhythm is the meter (or beat).
> > > >
> > > > As per the tangential nature of the narrative, your apology only makes me think of a line from "Hamlet" regarding the nature of protestation.
> > > >
> > > > Like I said, it's a good idea -- but it needs to focus on the message it is trying to get across.
> > > there is no message
> > of course rhythm and rhyme are two different things, but you have to read it with a certain rhythm and emphasis on certain words, to hear the even flow of rhyme.
> >
> > sure it's not a consistent scheme, but who in the world said poems have to be consistent. this is not natural, anyway.
> >
> > and who wants to read poetry like, "i think that i shall never see a poem as lovely as a tree" over and over and over.
> >
> > time to change the diapers!!!!
> phelps oversight i knew that and a few editing errors. please to excuse. english is my first language.

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:

= snip
You forgot to take your meds again, Crazy Lady.
Also there is no need for a novel in a poetry group. HTH. FOAD.

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:37:45 AM UTC-7, Family Guy wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> = snip =
>
> You forgot to take your meds again, Crazy Lady.
> Also there is no need for a novel in a poetry group. HTH. FOAD.

who is this

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:57:48 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:37:45 AM UTC-7, Family Guy wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > = snip =
> >
> > You forgot to take your meds again, Crazy Lady.
> > Also there is no need for a novel in a poetry group. HTH. FOAD.
> who is this

Bob.

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:53:12 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:57:48 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:37:45 AM UTC-7, Family Guy wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > > = snip =
> > >
> > > You forgot to take your meds again, Crazy Lady.
> > > Also there is no need for a novel in a poetry group. HTH. FOAD.
> > who is this
> Bob.

for apples ?

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:57:49 PM UTC-7, Rachel wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:53:12 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:57:48 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:37:45 AM UTC-7, Family Guy wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> > > > = snip =
> > > >
> > > > You forgot to take your meds again, Crazy Lady.
> > > > Also there is no need for a novel in a poetry group. HTH. FOAD.
> > > who is this
> > Bob.
> for apples ?

i wasn't talking to you.

i'm asking family guy. still waiting for response...