On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 12:52:26 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 8:51:56 AM UTC+11, number_six wrote:
> >> On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 3:52:16 AM UTC-7, andrewc wrote:
> >> My next purchase for the HML will be Sir Simon's recordings of the Sibelius symphonies, which will put me as far beyond the pale as it is possible to get.
> >>>
> >>> Andrew Clarke
> >>> Canberra
> >> Rattle was recently said to have applied for German citizenship.
> >>
> >> Assuming he goes dual (that is, does not renounce UK), does he retain his knighthood?
> >
> > I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce the title or not style himself "Sir".
> >
> > Andrew Clarke
> > Canberra
> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling myself Sir Frank?

Well you could join up with Count Basie, Duke Ellington and King Oliver, I suppose. But yes, there is, as I understand it, a law in the United States preventing foreign titles being used by American citizens.

You wouldn't want to receive an honour from Queen Elizabeth anyway, as according to your version of British politics and society, the woman makes Heinrich Himmler look like St Francis of Assisi. And Dave the Dude wouldn't call you Sir Frank anyway - we get Adrian Boult, Alexander Gibson, John Eliot Gardner, etc., etc.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 9:32:30 PM UTC-7, andrewc wrote:
> It turns out that Ritter von Rattel is already a German citizen and a recipient of Germany's highest award, the Order of Merit.

So he has already gone to the Rathaus to be sworn at, er, sworn in...

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 5:26:48 AM UTC+11, number_six wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
> > On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
> > > On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >
> > >> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
> > >> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
> > >> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
> > >> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
> > >> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
> > >> the title or not style himself "Sir".
> > > Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
> > > myself Sir Frank?
> > I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
> > Quintet fame.
> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
> Article I
>
> Section 9
> Clause 8
>
> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

That clarifies matters. The British sovereign can award honorary knighthoods - or their female equivalent - to people who aren't British citizens, but they can't style themselves as such, unless, like Solti, they subsequently become British citizens. On the other side of the Pond, you cannot accept any kind of title of honour from a foreign power if you hold an Office of Profit or Trust.: does this also apply to the individual States as well as the Federal Government? Is 'Kingfish' a title of honour?

Given that Sir Simon Rattle greatly improved the salaries of the Berlin Philharmonic, gave that orchestra greater autonomy, created outreach programmes (like the Rite of Spring project), created a memorable series of late (k)night concerts featuring the music of people like Berio and Dallapiccola, and was a driving force behind the creation of the Digital Concert hall, his knighthood is well merited.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 11:52:43 AM UTC-7, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 5:26:48 AM UTC+11, number_six wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
> > > On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
> > > > On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > >
> > > >> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
> > > >> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
> > > >> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
> > > >> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
> > > >> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
> > > >> the title or not style himself "Sir".
> > > > Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
> > > > myself Sir Frank?
> > > I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
> > > Quintet fame.
> > Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
> > Article I
> >
> > Section 9
> > Clause 8
> >
> > No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
> That clarifies matters. The British sovereign can award honorary knighthoods - or their female equivalent - to people who aren't British citizens, but they can't style themselves as such, unless, like Solti, they subsequently become British citizens. On the other side of the Pond, you cannot accept any kind of title of honour from a foreign power if you hold an Office of Profit or Trust.: does this also apply to the individual States as well as the Federal Government? Is 'Kingfish' a title of honour?
>
> Given that Sir Simon Rattle greatly improved the salaries of the Berlin Philharmonic, gave that orchestra greater autonomy, created outreach programmes (like the Rite of Spring project), created a memorable series of late (k)night concerts featuring the music of people like Berio and Dallapiccola, and was a driving force behind the creation of the Digital Concert hall, his knighthood is well merited.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra
Article I of the US Constitution relates to the powers of Congress and the clause quoted should not apply to officials of the individual states. But all or most states likely have anti-corruption statutes whose underlying intent would be similar to the federal prohibition on foreign emoluments. Even Louisiana, to tie in with the topic header and the Kingfish query.

On 3/29/2022 2:26 PM, number_six wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>
>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
>>> myself Sir Frank?
>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
>> Quintet fame.
>
> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
> Article I
>
> Section 9
> Clause 8
>
> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, >Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

That's totally different. The hope of being granted a title is what prevents me from running for office.

On 3/29/2022 2:52 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 5:26:48 AM UTC+11, number_six wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
>>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
>>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
>>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
>>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
>>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
>>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
>>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
>>>> myself Sir Frank?
>>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
>>> Quintet fame.
>> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
>> Article I
>>
>> Section 9
>> Clause 8
>>
>> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
>
> That clarifies matters. The British sovereign can award honorary knighthoods - or their female equivalent - to people who aren't British citizens, but they can't style themselves as such, unless, like Solti, they subsequently become British citizens. On the other side of the Pond, you cannot accept any kind of title of honour from a foreign power if you hold an Office of Profit or Trust.: does this also apply to the individual States as well as the Federal Government? Is 'Kingfish' a title of honour?
>
> Given that Sir Simon Rattle greatly improved the salaries of the Berlin Philharmonic, gave that orchestra greater autonomy, created outreach programmes (like the Rite of Spring project), created a memorable series of late (k)night concerts featuring the music of people like Berio and Dallapiccola, and was a driving force behind the creation of the Digital Concert hall, his knighthood is well merited.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

In other words, if a U.S. citizen who does not hold an office of profit or trust (whatever an office of profit is) is awarded an honorary knighthood by Great Britain he can't use the title "sir" in GB, but certainly can in the U.S. I suppose that might annoy the Brits who could revoke the honorary title.

On 3/29/2022 3:25 PM, number_six wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 11:52:43 AM UTC-7, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 5:26:48 AM UTC+11, number_six wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
>>>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
>>>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
>>>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
>>>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
>>>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
>>>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
>>>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
>>>>> myself Sir Frank?
>>>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
>>>> Quintet fame.
>>> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
>>> Article I
>>>
>>> Section 9
>>> Clause 8
>>>
>>> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
>> That clarifies matters. The British sovereign can award honorary knighthoods - or their female equivalent - to people who aren't British citizens, but they can't style themselves as such, unless, like Solti, they subsequently become British citizens. On the other side of the Pond, you cannot accept any kind of title of honour from a foreign power if you hold an Office of Profit or Trust.: does this also apply to the individual States as well as the Federal Government? Is 'Kingfish' a title of honour?
>>
>> Given that Sir Simon Rattle greatly improved the salaries of the Berlin Philharmonic, gave that orchestra greater autonomy, created outreach programmes (like the Rite of Spring project), created a memorable series of late (k)night concerts featuring the music of people like Berio and Dallapiccola, and was a driving force behind the creation of the Digital Concert hall, his knighthood is well merited.
>>
>> Andrew Clarke
>> Canberra
> Article I of the US Constitution relates to the powers of Congress and the clause quoted should not apply to officials of the individual states. But all or most states likely have anti-corruption statutes whose underlying intent would be similar to the federal prohibition on foreign emoluments. Even Louisiana, to tie in with the topic header and the Kingfish query.
>

That's Sir Kingfish to you.

On 3/29/22 2:26 PM, number_six wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>
>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
>>> myself Sir Frank?
>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
>> Quintet fame.
>
> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
> Article I
>
> Section 9
> Clause 8
>
> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

Damn! And I paid ten bucks to purchase a square foot of land in
Scotland, so now I have to relinquish my Lordship?

-Lord Owen

P.S. What about the Lord Almighty? Does he have to give that up too?

-O

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 8:22:30 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 3/29/2022 3:25 PM, number_six wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 11:52:43 AM UTC-7, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 5:26:48 AM UTC+11, number_six wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
> >>>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
> >>>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
> >>>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
> >>>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
> >>>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
> >>>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
> >>>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
> >>>>> myself Sir Frank?
> >>>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
> >>>> Quintet fame.
> >>> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
> >>> Article I
> >>>
> >>> Section 9
> >>> Clause 8
> >>>
> >>> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
> >> That clarifies matters. The British sovereign can award honorary knighthoods - or their female equivalent - to people who aren't British citizens, but they can't style themselves as such, unless, like Solti, they subsequently become British citizens. On the other side of the Pond, you cannot accept any kind of title of honour from a foreign power if you hold an Office of Profit or Trust.: does this also apply to the individual States as well as the Federal Government? Is 'Kingfish' a title of honour?
> >>
> >> Given that Sir Simon Rattle greatly improved the salaries of the Berlin Philharmonic, gave that orchestra greater autonomy, created outreach programmes (like the Rite of Spring project), created a memorable series of late (k)night concerts featuring the music of people like Berio and Dallapiccola, and was a driving force behind the creation of the Digital Concert hall, his knighthood is well merited.
> >>
> >> Andrew Clarke
> >> Canberra
> > Article I of the US Constitution relates to the powers of Congress and the clause quoted should not apply to officials of the individual states. But all or most states likely have anti-corruption statutes whose underlying intent would be similar to the federal prohibition on foreign emoluments. Even Louisiana, to tie in with the topic header and the Kingfish query.
> >
> That's Sir Kingfish to you.

I thought it was King Fish so a knighthood would be superfluous. Anyway, he's still revered in the Louisiana boondocks, where corruption on a vast scale is regarded as perfectly acceptable, if not laudable, even if a fellow US senator did accuse him of suffering from 'halitosis of the intellect'.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 4:37:24 AM UTC+11, Owen wrote:
> On 3/29/22 2:26 PM, number_six wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
> >> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >>
> >>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
> >>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
> >>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
> >>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
> >>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
> >>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
> >>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
> >>> myself Sir Frank?
> >> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
> >> Quintet fame.
> >
> > Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
> > Article I
> >
> > Section 9
> > Clause 8
> >
> > No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
> Damn! And I paid ten bucks to purchase a square foot of land in
> Scotland, so now I have to relinquish my Lordship?
>
> -Lord Owen
>
> P.S. What about the Lord Almighty? Does he have to give that up too?
>
> -O

Owning a square foot of land in Scotland, even in the ancestral lands of the Clan McQuoren, may make you a laird but not a lord. You have to be a baron, viscount, earl or marquess to style yourself Lord Anything and unless you're a British citizen, you ain't going to get a peerage.

Meanwhile, Rattle has also been awarded the Order of Merit, which is generally regarded as more valuable than a knighthood as recipients of the latter are recommended to the sovereign by the Prime Minister of the day, and so are likely to be awarded for political reasons.

When push comes to shove, if I ever get to meet the President of the United States, which is unlikely, I shall address him as Mr President and not Sleepy Joe, Old Fishface or any other soubriquet, derogatory or otherwise, because that is the courteous thing to do. If I ever meet Sir John Eliot Gardiner - even less likely - I shall address him as Sir John, because that is the courteous thing to do also. Mind you, Sir Charles Groves, an excellent conductor long forgotten, was addressed by members of his orchestras as 'Charlie' both before and after his knighthood, but that, you see, was his decision.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On 2022-03-30 1:33 p.m., Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 4:37:24 AM UTC+11, Owen wrote:
>> On 3/29/22 2:26 PM, number_six wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
>>>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
>>>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
>>>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
>>>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
>>>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
>>>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
>>>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
>>>>> myself Sir Frank?
>>>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
>>>> Quintet fame.
>>>
>>> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
>>> Article I
>>>
>>> Section 9
>>> Clause 8
>>>
>>> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
>> Damn! And I paid ten bucks to purchase a square foot of land in
>> Scotland, so now I have to relinquish my Lordship?
>>
>> -Lord Owen
>>
>> P.S. What about the Lord Almighty? Does he have to give that up too?
>>
>> -O
>
> Owning a square foot of land in Scotland, even in the ancestral lands of the Clan McQuoren, may make you a laird but not a lord. You have to be a baron, viscount, earl or marquess to style yourself Lord Anything and unless you're a British citizen, you ain't going to get a peerage.
>
> Meanwhile, Rattle has also been awarded the Order of Merit, which is generally regarded as more valuable than a knighthood as recipients of the latter are recommended to the sovereign by the Prime Minister of the day, and so are likely to be awarded for political reasons.
>
> When push comes to shove, if I ever get to meet the President of the United States, which is unlikely, I shall address him as Mr President and not Sleepy Joe, Old Fishface or any other soubriquet, derogatory or otherwise, because that is the courteous thing to do. If I ever meet Sir John Eliot Gardiner - even less likely - I shall address him as Sir John, because that is the courteous thing to do also. Mind you, Sir Charles Groves, an excellent conductor long forgotten, was addressed by members of his orchestras as 'Charlie' both before and after his knighthood, but that, you see, was his decision.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra
Menuhin, a long-term UK resident, was given an honorary knighthood but
couldn't use the title until he took out citizenship. He was later ennobled.

On 3/30/2022 3:33 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 4:37:24 AM UTC+11, Owen wrote:
>> On 3/29/22 2:26 PM, number_six wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
>>>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
>>>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
>>>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
>>>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
>>>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
>>>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
>>>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
>>>>> myself Sir Frank?
>>>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
>>>> Quintet fame.
>>>
>>> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
>>> Article I
>>>
>>> Section 9
>>> Clause 8
>>>
>>> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
>> Damn! And I paid ten bucks to purchase a square foot of land in
>> Scotland, so now I have to relinquish my Lordship?
>>
>> -Lord Owen
>>
>> P.S. What about the Lord Almighty? Does he have to give that up too?
>>
>> -O
>
> Owning a square foot of land in Scotland, even in the ancestral lands of the Clan McQuoren, may make you a laird but not a lord. You have to be a baron, viscount, earl or marquess to style yourself Lord Anything and unless you're a British citizen, you ain't going to get a peerage.
>
> Meanwhile, Rattle has also been awarded the Order of Merit, which is generally regarded as more valuable than a knighthood as recipients of the latter are recommended to the sovereign by the Prime Minister of the day, and so are likely to be awarded for political reasons.
>
> When push comes to shove, if I ever get to meet the President of the United States, which is unlikely, I shall address him as Mr President and not Sleepy Joe, Old Fishface or any other soubriquet, derogatory or otherwise, because that is the courteous thing to do. If I ever meet Sir John Eliot Gardiner - even less likely - I shall address him as Sir John, because that is the courteous thing to do also. Mind you, Sir Charles Groves, an excellent conductor long forgotten, was addressed by members of his orchestras as 'Charlie' both before and after his knighthood, but that, you see, was his decision.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

In the mid 50's I, along with thousands of others, acquired, from a Quaker Oats cereal box, a deed showing ownership of 1 square inch of land in Alaska. A little research shows the deed said the owners were obligated to pay Alaskan property taxes, and that, failing to do so, ownership of the "property" would revert to Alaska. I suppose that is what happened to my property. Thing is, I never received a bill for those taxes. How could I pay without being billed? I'm going to hire a lawyer and get my property back and, to the point, declare myself lord. Maybe that square inch is directly under a pipeline and they will have to pay back, and future, rent. Yeah.

On 3/28/22 9:32 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 12:58:10 PM UTC+11, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 8:51:56 AM UTC+11, number_six wrote:
>>> On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 3:52:16 AM UTC-7, andrewc wrote:
>>> My next purchase for the HML will be Sir Simon's recordings of the Sibelius symphonies, which will put me as far beyond the pale as it is possible to get.
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Clarke
>>>> Canberra
>>> Rattle was recently said to have applied for German citizenship.
>>>
>>> Assuming he goes dual (that is, does not renounce UK), does he retain his knighthood?
>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce the title or not style himself "Sir".
>>
>
> It turns out that Ritter von Rattel is already a German citizen and a recipient of Germany's highest award, the Order of Merit. This step was to enable him to more freely move about the EU without the paperwork required for post-Brexit Britons. He also seems to believe that Brexit supporters are innately insular and anti-European, a very dubious assumption. I think that if the EU had stuck to what it originally was, namely a free trade zone, the UK would still be a member.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra
> or is it Ratter von Rittel?
>
>
I think you are right; it was the excessive regulatory meddling that led
to Brexit.

Bob Harper

On 3/30/22 12:33 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 4:37:24 AM UTC+11, Owen wrote:
>> On 3/29/22 2:26 PM, number_six wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
>>>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
>>>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
>>>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
>>>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
>>>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
>>>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
>>>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
>>>>> myself Sir Frank?
>>>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
>>>> Quintet fame.
>>>
>>> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
>>> Article I
>>>
>>> Section 9
>>> Clause 8
>>>
>>> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
>> Damn! And I paid ten bucks to purchase a square foot of land in
>> Scotland, so now I have to relinquish my Lordship?
>>
>> -Lord Owen
>>
>> P.S. What about the Lord Almighty? Does he have to give that up too?
>>
>> -O
>
> Owning a square foot of land in Scotland, even in the ancestral lands of the Clan McQuoren, may make you a laird but not a lord. You have to be a baron, viscount, earl or marquess to style yourself Lord Anything and unless you're a British citizen, you ain't going to get a peerage.
>
> Meanwhile, Rattle has also been awarded the Order of Merit, which is generally regarded as more valuable than a knighthood as recipients of the latter are recommended to the sovereign by the Prime Minister of the day, and so are likely to be awarded for political reasons.
>
> When push comes to shove, if I ever get to meet the President of the United States, which is unlikely, I shall address him as Mr President and not Sleepy Joe, Old Fishface or any other soubriquet, derogatory or otherwise, because that is the courteous thing to do. If I ever meet Sir John Eliot Gardiner - even less likely - I shall address him as Sir John, because that is the courteous thing to do also. Mind you, Sir Charles Groves, an excellent conductor long forgotten, was addressed by members of his orchestras as 'Charlie' both before and after his knighthood, but that, you see, was his decision.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

But Andrew, courtesy so so old-fashioned, innit? No, not really; more
courtesy would make this a better world, as I think you and I both
understand.

Bob Harper

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 8:37:32 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 3/30/2022 3:33 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 4:37:24 AM UTC+11, Owen wrote:
> >> On 3/29/22 2:26 PM, number_six wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
> >>>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
> >>>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
> >>>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
> >>>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
> >>>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
> >>>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
> >>>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
> >>>>> myself Sir Frank?
> >>>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
> >>>> Quintet fame.
> >>>
> >>> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
> >>> Article I
> >>>
> >>> Section 9
> >>> Clause 8
> >>>
> >>> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
> >> Damn! And I paid ten bucks to purchase a square foot of land in
> >> Scotland, so now I have to relinquish my Lordship?
> >>
> >> -Lord Owen
> >>
> >> P.S. What about the Lord Almighty? Does he have to give that up too?
> >>
> >> -O
> >
> > Owning a square foot of land in Scotland, even in the ancestral lands of the Clan McQuoren, may make you a laird but not a lord. You have to be a baron, viscount, earl or marquess to style yourself Lord Anything and unless you're a British citizen, you ain't going to get a peerage.
> >
> > Meanwhile, Rattle has also been awarded the Order of Merit, which is generally regarded as more valuable than a knighthood as recipients of the latter are recommended to the sovereign by the Prime Minister of the day, and so are likely to be awarded for political reasons.
> >
> > When push comes to shove, if I ever get to meet the President of the United States, which is unlikely, I shall address him as Mr President and not Sleepy Joe, Old Fishface or any other soubriquet, derogatory or otherwise, because that is the courteous thing to do. If I ever meet Sir John Eliot Gardiner - even less likely - I shall address him as Sir John, because that is the courteous thing to do also. Mind you, Sir Charles Groves, an excellent conductor long forgotten, was addressed by members of his orchestras as 'Charlie' both before and after his knighthood, but that, you see, was his decision.
> >
> > Andrew Clarke
> > Canberra
> In the mid 50's I, along with thousands of others, acquired, from a Quaker Oats cereal box, a deed showing ownership of 1 square inch of land in Alaska. A little research shows the deed said the owners were obligated to pay Alaskan property taxes, and that, failing to do so, ownership of the "property" would revert to Alaska. I suppose that is what happened to my property. Thing is, I never received a bill for those taxes. How could I pay without being billed? I'm going to hire a lawyer and get my property back and, to the point, declare myself lord. Maybe that square inch is directly under a pipeline and they will have to pay back, and future, rent. Yeah.

Baron Berger of Ketchican - addressed as Lord Berger - does have a certain ring to it, except you would be endlessly parodied as Baron Hamburger of Ketchup. I'm afraid this is the best we can do, as the British Sovereign has only created barons in the past forty years. These are now always Life Peerages, which end at the recipient's death so your oldest surviving son will not inherit.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 7:57:42 AM UTC+11, Graham wrote:

> Menuhin, a long-term UK resident, was given an honorary knighthood but
> couldn't use the title until he took out citizenship. He was later ennobled.

Baron Menuhin of Stoke d'Abernon. Coat of Arms: upon a shield, three matzah balls rampant over the motto 'Practise, Practise, Practise'.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 1:56:18 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:

> But Andrew, courtesy so so old-fashioned, innit? No, not really; more
> courtesy would make this a better world, as I think you and I both
> understand.
>

The most effortlessly courteous people I've ever met were members of a male voice choir from Chattanooga.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On 2022-03-30 9:08 p.m., Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 8:37:32 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 3/30/2022 3:33 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 4:37:24 AM UTC+11, Owen wrote:
>>>> On 3/29/22 2:26 PM, number_six wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
>>>>>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
>>>>>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
>>>>>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
>>>>>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
>>>>>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
>>>>>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
>>>>>>> myself Sir Frank?
>>>>>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
>>>>>> Quintet fame.
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
>>>>> Article I
>>>>>
>>>>> Section 9
>>>>> Clause 8
>>>>>
>>>>> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
>>>> Damn! And I paid ten bucks to purchase a square foot of land in
>>>> Scotland, so now I have to relinquish my Lordship?
>>>>
>>>> -Lord Owen
>>>>
>>>> P.S. What about the Lord Almighty? Does he have to give that up too?
>>>>
>>>> -O
>>>
>>> Owning a square foot of land in Scotland, even in the ancestral lands of the Clan McQuoren, may make you a laird but not a lord. You have to be a baron, viscount, earl or marquess to style yourself Lord Anything and unless you're a British citizen, you ain't going to get a peerage.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, Rattle has also been awarded the Order of Merit, which is generally regarded as more valuable than a knighthood as recipients of the latter are recommended to the sovereign by the Prime Minister of the day, and so are likely to be awarded for political reasons.
>>>
>>> When push comes to shove, if I ever get to meet the President of the United States, which is unlikely, I shall address him as Mr President and not Sleepy Joe, Old Fishface or any other soubriquet, derogatory or otherwise, because that is the courteous thing to do. If I ever meet Sir John Eliot Gardiner - even less likely - I shall address him as Sir John, because that is the courteous thing to do also. Mind you, Sir Charles Groves, an excellent conductor long forgotten, was addressed by members of his orchestras as 'Charlie' both before and after his knighthood, but that, you see, was his decision.
>>>
>>> Andrew Clarke
>>> Canberra
>> In the mid 50's I, along with thousands of others, acquired, from a Quaker Oats cereal box, a deed showing ownership of 1 square inch of land in Alaska. A little research shows the deed said the owners were obligated to pay Alaskan property taxes, and that, failing to do so, ownership of the "property" would revert to Alaska. I suppose that is what happened to my property. Thing is, I never received a bill for those taxes. How could I pay without being billed? I'm going to hire a lawyer and get my property back and, to the point, declare myself lord. Maybe that square inch is directly under a pipeline and they will have to pay back, and future, rent. Yeah.
>
> Baron Berger of Ketchican - addressed as Lord Berger - does have a certain ring to it, except you would be endlessly parodied as Baron Hamburger of Ketchup. I'm afraid this is the best we can do, as the British Sovereign has only created barons in the past forty years.

Apart from the hereditary Earldom given to Harold MacMillan in 1984.

These are now always Life Peerages, which end at the recipient's death
so your oldest surviving son will not inherit.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra
>

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 3:28:31 PM UTC+11, Graham wrote:

>Apart from the hereditary Earldom given to Harold MacMillan in 1984.

The last thirty-eight years, then! I forgot about old Supermac, although i well remember the political cartoons of the day. Last Prime Minister to be given an hereditary peerage on retirement, although I believe he'd previously turned one down. The current Earl of Stockton is rather different:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Macmillan,_2nd_Earl_of_Stockton>

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On 3/31/2022 12:28 AM, Graham wrote:
> On 2022-03-30 9:08 p.m., Andrew Clarke wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 8:37:32 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 3/30/2022 3:33 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 4:37:24 AM UTC+11, Owen wrote:
>>>>> On 3/29/22 2:26 PM, number_six wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
>>>>>>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
>>>>>>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
>>>>>>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
>>>>>>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
>>>>>>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
>>>>>>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
>>>>>>>> myself Sir Frank?
>>>>>>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
>>>>>>> Quintet fame.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
>>>>>> Article I
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Section 9
>>>>>> Clause 8
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
>>>>> Damn! And I paid ten bucks to purchase a square foot of land in
>>>>> Scotland, so now I have to relinquish my Lordship?
>>>>>
>>>>> -Lord Owen
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S. What about the Lord Almighty? Does he have to give that up too?
>>>>>
>>>>> -O
>>>>
>>>> Owning a square foot of land in Scotland, even in the ancestral lands of the Clan McQuoren, may make you a laird but not a lord. You have to be a baron, viscount, earl or marquess to style yourself Lord Anything and unless you're a British citizen, you ain't going to get a peerage.
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, Rattle has also been awarded the Order of Merit, which is generally regarded as more valuable than a knighthood as recipients of the latter are recommended to the sovereign by the Prime Minister of the day, and so are likely to be awarded for political reasons.
>>>>
>>>> When push comes to shove, if I ever get to meet the President of the United States, which is unlikely, I shall address him as Mr President and not Sleepy Joe, Old Fishface or any other soubriquet, derogatory or otherwise, because that is the courteous thing to do. If I ever meet Sir John Eliot Gardiner - even less likely - I shall address him as Sir John, because that is the courteous thing to do also. Mind you, Sir Charles Groves, an excellent conductor long forgotten, was addressed by members of his orchestras as 'Charlie' both before and after his knighthood, but that, you see, was his decision.
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Clarke
>>>> Canberra
>>> In the mid 50's I, along with thousands of others, acquired, from a Quaker Oats cereal box, a deed showing ownership of 1 square inch of land in Alaska. A little research shows the deed said the owners were obligated to pay Alaskan property taxes, and that, failing to do so, ownership of the "property" would revert to Alaska. I suppose that is what happened to my property. Thing is, I never received a bill for those taxes. How could I pay without being billed? I'm going to hire a lawyer and get my property back and, to the point, declare myself lord. Maybe that square inch is directly under a pipeline and they will have to pay back, and future, rent. Yeah.
>>
>> Baron Berger of Ketchican - addressed as Lord Berger - does have a certain ring to it, except you would be endlessly parodied as Baron Hamburger of Ketchup.  I'm afraid this is the best we can do, as the British Sovereign has only created barons in the past forty years.
>
> Apart from the hereditary Earldom given to Harold MacMillan in 1984.
>
> These are now always Life Peerages, which end at the recipient's death so your oldest surviving son will not inherit.
>>
>> Andrew Clarke
>> Canberra
>>
>

We are talking about my title in my one square inch domain in Alaska. I don't care about no stinkin' British title. And as I have no son, my title will pass to one of my daughters. I don't know which one. I haven't yet determined the rules of succession.

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The most effortlessly courteous people I've ever met were members of a male voice choir from Chattanooga.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

Agreed about the triumph of woke offense and the demise of simple courtesy. The most naturally and openly courteous exchange I ever had was with a few members of the University of Oklahoma wrestling team on a flight to St Louis. The conversation was so engaging that the stewardess thought I was their coach. This was well before woke progressivism overtook American higher education.

On 3/30/2022 11:26 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 1:56:18 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
>
>> But Andrew, courtesy so so old-fashioned, innit? No, not really; more
>> courtesy would make this a better world, as I think you and I both
>> understand.
>>
>
> The most effortlessly courteous people I've ever met were members of a male voice choir from Chattanooga.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

Among the set of all character traits, I'm not sure courtesy ranks very high. Besides, courtesy can be faked and it can be shallow.

On 3/31/22 10:25 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 3/31/2022 12:28 AM, Graham wrote:
>> On 2022-03-30 9:08 p.m., Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 8:37:32 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 3/30/2022 3:33 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 4:37:24 AM UTC+11, Owen wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/29/22 2:26 PM, number_six wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow
>>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob
>>>>>>>>>> Hope, Georg
>>>>>>>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary
>>>>>>>>>> knighthoods
>>>>>>>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
>>>>>>>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to
>>>>>>>>>> renounce
>>>>>>>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
>>>>>>>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
>>>>>>>>> myself Sir Frank?
>>>>>>>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
>>>>>>>> Quintet fame.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the
>>>>>>> foreign emoluments clause --
>>>>>>> Article I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Section 9
>>>>>>> Clause 8
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And
>>>>>>> no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them,
>>>>>>> shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any
>>>>>>> present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from
>>>>>>> any King, Prince, or foreign State.
>>>>>> Damn! And I paid ten bucks to purchase a square foot of land in
>>>>>> Scotland, so now I have to relinquish my Lordship?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Lord Owen
>>>>>>
>>>>>> P.S. What about the Lord Almighty? Does he have to give that up too?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -O
>>>>>
>>>>> Owning a square foot of land in Scotland, even in the ancestral
>>>>> lands of the Clan McQuoren, may make you a laird but not a lord.
>>>>> You have to be a baron, viscount, earl or marquess to style
>>>>> yourself Lord Anything and unless you're a British citizen, you
>>>>> ain't going to get a peerage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, Rattle has also been awarded the Order of Merit, which
>>>>> is generally regarded as more valuable than a knighthood as
>>>>> recipients of the latter are recommended to the sovereign by the
>>>>> Prime Minister of the day, and so are likely to be awarded for
>>>>> political reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> When push comes to shove, if I ever get to meet the President of
>>>>> the United States, which is unlikely, I shall address him as Mr
>>>>> President and not Sleepy Joe, Old Fishface or any other soubriquet,
>>>>> derogatory or otherwise, because that is the courteous thing to do.
>>>>> If I ever meet Sir John Eliot Gardiner - even less likely - I shall
>>>>> address him as Sir John, because that is the courteous thing to do
>>>>> also. Mind you, Sir Charles Groves, an excellent conductor long
>>>>> forgotten, was addressed by members of his orchestras as 'Charlie'
>>>>> both before and after his knighthood, but that, you see, was his
>>>>> decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew Clarke
>>>>> Canberra
>>>> In the mid 50's I, along with thousands of others, acquired, from a
>>>> Quaker Oats cereal box, a deed showing ownership of 1 square inch of
>>>> land in Alaska. A little research shows the deed said the owners
>>>> were obligated to pay Alaskan property taxes, and that, failing to
>>>> do so, ownership of the "property" would revert to Alaska. I suppose
>>>> that is what happened to my property. Thing is, I never received a
>>>> bill for those taxes. How could I pay without being billed? I'm
>>>> going to hire a lawyer and get my property back and, to the point,
>>>> declare myself lord. Maybe that square inch is directly under a
>>>> pipeline and they will have to pay back, and future, rent. Yeah.
>>>
>>> Baron Berger of Ketchican - addressed as Lord Berger - does have a
>>> certain ring to it, except you would be endlessly parodied as Baron
>>> Hamburger of Ketchup.  I'm afraid this is the best we can do, as the
>>> British Sovereign has only created barons in the past forty years.
>>
>> Apart from the hereditary Earldom given to Harold MacMillan in 1984.
>>
>> These are now always Life Peerages, which end at the recipient's death
>> so your oldest surviving son will not inherit.
>>>
>>> Andrew Clarke
>>> Canberra
>>>
>>
>
> We are talking about my title in my one square inch domain in Alaska.  I
> don't care about no stinkin' British title.  And as I have no son, my
> title will pass to one of my daughters.  I don't know which one.  I
> haven't yet determined the rules of succession.

Since you didn't pay your taxes (not getting a bill is no excuse!), your
inch has probably been taken for tax title and is not under any pipeline
but a grizzly bear has left some former personal property on it.

-Owen

On 3/31/2022 4:19 PM, Owen wrote:
> On 3/31/22 10:25 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 3/31/2022 12:28 AM, Graham wrote:
>>> On 2022-03-30 9:08 p.m., Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 8:37:32 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>> On 3/30/2022 3:33 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 4:37:24 AM UTC+11, Owen wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/29/22 2:26 PM, number_six wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
>>>>>>>>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
>>>>>>>>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
>>>>>>>>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
>>>>>>>>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
>>>>>>>>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
>>>>>>>>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
>>>>>>>>>> myself Sir Frank?
>>>>>>>>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
>>>>>>>>> Quintet fame.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
>>>>>>>> Article I
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Section 9
>>>>>>>> Clause 8
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
>>>>>>> Damn! And I paid ten bucks to purchase a square foot of land in
>>>>>>> Scotland, so now I have to relinquish my Lordship?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Lord Owen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> P.S. What about the Lord Almighty? Does he have to give that up too?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -O
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Owning a square foot of land in Scotland, even in the ancestral lands of the Clan McQuoren, may make you a laird but not a lord. You have to be a baron, viscount, earl or marquess to style yourself Lord Anything and unless you're a British citizen, you ain't going to get a peerage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Meanwhile, Rattle has also been awarded the Order of Merit, which is generally regarded as more valuable than a knighthood as recipients of the latter are recommended to the sovereign by the Prime Minister of the day, and so are likely to be awarded for political reason As.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When push comes to shove, if I ever get to meet the President of the United States, which is unlikely, I shall address him as Mr President and not Sleepy Joe, Old Fishface or any other soubriquet, derogatory or otherwise, because that is the courteous thing to do. If I ever meet Sir John Eliot Gardiner - even less likely - I shall address him as Sir John, because that is the courteous thing to do also. Mind you, Sir Charles Groves, an excellent conductor long forgotten, was addressed by members of his orchestras as 'Charlie' both before and after his knighthood, but that, you see, was his decision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andrew Clarke
>>>>>> Canberra
>>>>> In the mid 50's I, along with thousands of others, acquired, from a Quaker Oats cereal box, a deed showing ownership of 1 square inch of land in Alaska. A little research shows the deed said the owners were obligated to pay Alaskan property taxes, and that, failing to do so, ownership of the "property" would revert to Alaska. I suppose that is what happened to my property. Thing is, I never received a bill for those taxes. How could I pay without being billed? I'm going to hire a lawyer and get my property back and, to the point, declare myself lord. Maybe that square inch is directly under a pipeline and they will have to pay back, and future, rent. Yeah.
>>>>
>>>> Baron Berger of Ketchican - addressed as Lord Berger - does have a certain ring to it, except you would be endlessly parodied as Baron Hamburger of Ketchup.  I'm afraid this is the best we can do, as the British Sovereign has only created barons in the past forty years.
>>>
>>> Apart from the hereditary Earldom given to Harold MacMillan in 1984.
>>>
>>> These are now always Life Peerages, which end at the recipient's death so your oldest surviving son will not inherit.
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Clarke
>>>> Canberra
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> We are talking about my title in my one square inch domain in Alaska.  I don't care about no stinkin' British title.  And as I have no son, my title will pass to one of my daughters.  I don't know which one.  I haven't yet determined the rules of succession.
>
> Since you didn't pay your taxes (not getting a bill is no excuse!), your inch has probably been taken for tax title and is not under any pipeline but a grizzly bear has left some former personal property on it.
>
> -Owen

How am I supposed to pay my taxes without getting a bill. The whole thing was a fraud. After I sue and win, I will be able afford cleaning up the bear poop.

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 1:25:39 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 3/31/2022 12:28 AM, Graham wrote:
> > On 2022-03-30 9:08 p.m., Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 8:37:32 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>> On 3/30/2022 3:33 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 4:37:24 AM UTC+11, Owen wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/29/22 2:26 PM, number_six wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, MINe109 wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
> >>>>>>>>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
> >>>>>>>>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
> >>>>>>>>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
> >>>>>>>>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
> >>>>>>>>> the title or not style himself "Sir".
> >>>>>>>> Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
> >>>>>>>> myself Sir Frank?
> >>>>>>> I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
> >>>>>>> Quintet fame.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
> >>>>>> Article I
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Section 9
> >>>>>> Clause 8
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
> >>>>> Damn! And I paid ten bucks to purchase a square foot of land in
> >>>>> Scotland, so now I have to relinquish my Lordship?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -Lord Owen
> >>>>>
> >>>>> P.S. What about the Lord Almighty? Does he have to give that up too?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -O
> >>>>
> >>>> Owning a square foot of land in Scotland, even in the ancestral lands of the Clan McQuoren, may make you a laird but not a lord. You have to be a baron, viscount, earl or marquess to style yourself Lord Anything and unless you're a British citizen, you ain't going to get a peerage.
> >>>>
> >>>> Meanwhile, Rattle has also been awarded the Order of Merit, which is generally regarded as more valuable than a knighthood as recipients of the latter are recommended to the sovereign by the Prime Minister of the day, and so are likely to be awarded for political reasons.
> >>>>
> >>>> When push comes to shove, if I ever get to meet the President of the United States, which is unlikely, I shall address him as Mr President and not Sleepy Joe, Old Fishface or any other soubriquet, derogatory or otherwise, because that is the courteous thing to do. If I ever meet Sir John Eliot Gardiner - even less likely - I shall address him as Sir John, because that is the courteous thing to do also. Mind you, Sir Charles Groves, an excellent conductor long forgotten, was addressed by members of his orchestras as 'Charlie' both before and after his knighthood, but that, you see, was his decision.
> >>>>
> >>>> Andrew Clarke
> >>>> Canberra
> >>> In the mid 50's I, along with thousands of others, acquired, from a Quaker Oats cereal box, a deed showing ownership of 1 square inch of land in Alaska. A little research shows the deed said the owners were obligated to pay Alaskan property taxes, and that, failing to do so, ownership of the "property" would revert to Alaska. I suppose that is what happened to my property. Thing is, I never received a bill for those taxes. How could I pay without being billed? I'm going to hire a lawyer and get my property back and, to the point, declare myself lord. Maybe that square inch is directly under a pipeline and they will have to pay back, and future, rent. Yeah.
> >>
> >> Baron Berger of Ketchican - addressed as Lord Berger - does have a certain ring to it, except you would be endlessly parodied as Baron Hamburger of Ketchup. I'm afraid this is the best we can do, as the British Sovereign has only created barons in the past forty years.
> >
> > Apart from the hereditary Earldom given to Harold MacMillan in 1984.
> >
> > These are now always Life Peerages, which end at the recipient's death so your oldest surviving son will not inherit.
> >>
> >> Andrew Clarke
> >> Canberra
> >>
> >
> We are talking about my title in my one square inch domain in Alaska. I don't care about no stinkin' British title. And as I have no son, my title will pass to one of my daughters. I don't know which one. I haven't yet determined the rules of succession.

Unfortunately the Rules of Succession have already been determined, and if you have no male issue, the title goes to your nearest male relative, e.g. your cousin Bernie in Mamaroneck. If you had been given an hereditary title your daughters would already be called either The Honourable Sonia Berger or Lady Sonia Berger, but not Lady Berger, who would be the wife of a knight. Magdalena could use this style if she wanted to, but as yet I've never heard of her doing this. Kissin' Kozenas yes, Lady Rattle, no.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra