/On 9/15/2022 10:25 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 4:09:30 PM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>> I meant to say if you are not an analyst you should NOT act like one (I don't know if you were deliberately dishonest or not), even on-line. You might well withdraw from this exchange as you have acted unprofessionally. I wonder if you have violated your professional organization's standards by engaging in psychoanalysis of people you have not met, when you are not even a psychoanalyst.
>
> Well, no one needs to be a psychoanalyst nor a desk psychologist to see you're a very cranky old man, Frank, who can't let go of the tiniest thing.
> You clearly have no idea what psychoanalysis consists of or what it looks like.

This is incorrect. My parent were in therapy for years. They talked shop continuously. It saved their marriage. I met with their psychiatrist, a very warm fellow named Rath, several times about my underachieving in school. So I have some familiarity. I don't think Dr. Rath would have impersonated an economist to bolster his opinion on some economic question.

> You may or may not recall this is a group about recorded music; no one acts 'professionally' here, nor should they.
> Let me just add that on all levels

Every single one? His impersonating a psychoanalyst proves that at one level, at least, he isn't. Deomonizing people who don't agree with him politically is also a negative attribute. Other than these, he could be a prince. I have no way of knowing. Professional accomplishment doesn't bear on the matter at all. It just shows he is intelligent and good his job. There are lots of creeps and criminals who could claim that.

Andy is by far your superior, as a man who worked to make the world a beter place, rather than just looking out for his self-interest,

You think my self interest is to deny global warming when I know it is true? You may as well argue that every person that fails to save for his old age and goes on the public dole was looking out for his self interest.

It could be that his professional accomplishments exceeded mine. Lot of people have. But I doubt you have any idea.

>so maybe it would be a good idea to shut up and

Cat calls the kettle black.

>stop this pathetic heckling.>

Let me remind you what Andy actually said about me:

"I've spent 30 years as a psychologist listening carefully to around 3,000 people talk, but the thought processes behind your statements are frequently so strange that I have the greatest difficulty in understanding what kind of mind produces them."

This could not sound more like an analyst speaking could it? He sought to use his psychology degree to buttress his statement. He's free to say whatever he wants about me, as are you. As far as I know, you've never felt the need to impersonate a credentialed expert in criticizing me. What he did is unprofessional. I am not required to know that, based on other posts of his, what kind of a psychologist he really is. Not that that would matter in the least.

On 9/13/22 5:21 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, 14 September 2022 at 09:24:26 UTC+10, Bob Harper wrote:
>> On 9/12/22 6:55 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 13 September 2022 at 10:16:00 UTC+10, Bob Harper wrote:
>>>
>>>>> If you had read correctly, I never mentioned anything about Thatcher's or Truss's objectives. The fact that they lie to the far right of UK politics, ensures your deference to them. So what else is new?
>>>>>
>>>>> Incidentally, your description of fascism above, is not that far removed from the MAGA concept, in the sense it has little to do with democracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ray Hall, Taree
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> That's nuts, Ray. If 'MAGA' has any coherent meaning (which I sometimes
>>>> doubt), it is 'less state, more freedom', not the reverse.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Harper
>>>
>>> The meaning as trumpeted by your previous Prez, has more the connotation I intended.
>>>
>>> Ray Hall, Taree
>> Such as?
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> I don't need to waste my time on any explaination about Trump. You either know, or you don't (which I cannot believe).
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

IOW, you really have nothing except visceral hate. Thanks for clarifying.

Bob Harper

On 9/13/22 5:49 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 9/13/2022 7:24 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
>> On 9/12/22 6:55 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 13 September 2022 at 10:16:00 UTC+10, Bob Harper wrote:
>>>
>>>>> If you had read correctly, I never mentioned anything about
>>>>> Thatcher's or Truss's objectives. The fact that they lie to the far
>>>>> right of UK politics, ensures your deference to them. So what else
>>>>> is new?
>>>>>
>>>>> Incidentally, your description of fascism above, is not that far
>>>>> removed from the MAGA concept, in the sense it has little to do
>>>>> with democracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ray Hall, Taree
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> That's nuts, Ray. If 'MAGA' has any coherent meaning (which I sometimes
>>>> doubt), it is 'less state, more freedom', not the reverse.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Harper
>>>
>>> The meaning as trumpeted by your previous Prez, has more the
>>> connotation I intended.
>>>
>>> Ray Hall, Taree
>>
>> Such as?
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
>
> It's simple, Bob.  MAGA= Right wing ultra nationalist hate groups.
> Anybody who voted for Trump is a right wing ultra nationalist racist
> piece of shit.  What's so complicated?
>
Yeah, I figured that. The problem is that it isn't true.

Bob Harper

On 9/13/22 5:51 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 9/13/2022 7:37 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
>> On 9/13/22 2:58 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 9/13/2022 5:24 PM, Lawrence Kart wrote:
>>>
>>> War is hell. I predict the Conservatives will take some measures for
>>> relief targeted at the poor.  But it can not be done without hurting
>>> the middle class.  Sometimes things get so f***ked up that there
>>> simply are no solutions in the short term.  I have used the following
>>> analogy before:
>>>
>>> If terrorists want to kill you, your choices are to a) let them or b)
>>> spend a lot of money protecting yourself.  Either way they have
>>> harmed you.  There is no avoiding it.
>>>
>> You forgot c) kill them first. See the late Qassem Soleimani, Abu
>> Muhammad al-Masri, and Ayman al-Zawahiri for examples.
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> I didn't forget it.  I included it in b. Could have been separate.
> Either way.
>
OK. I just thought it should be clearly stated :-).

Bob Harper

In article <7d7743c2-34e6-445b-b0f6-44eb7a086a7an@googlegroups.com>,
Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
>Just to clear this up, I'm not a psychoanalyst and I'm not a
>therapist and haven't ever been either.

As with so many topics here, only one person was ever confused.

On Friday, 16 September 2022 at 02:09:14 UTC+10, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 9/13/22 5:21 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 14 September 2022 at 09:24:26 UTC+10, Bob Harper wrote:
> >> On 9/12/22 6:55 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, 13 September 2022 at 10:16:00 UTC+10, Bob Harper wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> If you had read correctly, I never mentioned anything about Thatcher's or Truss's objectives. The fact that they lie to the far right of UK politics, ensures your deference to them. So what else is new?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Incidentally, your description of fascism above, is not that far removed from the MAGA concept, in the sense it has little to do with democracy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ray Hall, Taree
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> That's nuts, Ray. If 'MAGA' has any coherent meaning (which I sometimes
> >>>> doubt), it is 'less state, more freedom', not the reverse.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bob Harper
> >>>
> >>> The meaning as trumpeted by your previous Prez, has more the connotation I intended.
> >>>
> >>> Ray Hall, Taree
> >> Such as?
> >>
> >> Bob Harper
> >
> > I don't need to waste my time on any explaination about Trump. You either know, or you don't (which I cannot believe).
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree
>
> IOW, you really have nothing except visceral hate. Thanks for clarifying.
>
> Bob Harper

I am glad you are clear. But your obvious support for the most hated politician in the Western world is also noted. You really should be ashamed.

Ray Hall, Taree

> "I've spent 30 years as a psychologist listening carefully to around 3,000 people talk, but the thought processes behind your statements are frequently so strange that I have the greatest difficulty in understanding what kind of mind produces them."
>
> This could not sound more like an analyst speaking could it? He sought to use his psychology degree to buttress his statement. He's free to say whatever he wants about me, as are you. As far as I know, you've never felt the need to impersonate a credentialed expert in criticizing me. What he did is unprofessional. I am not required to know that, based on other posts of his, what kind of a psychologist he really is. Not that that would matter in the least.>>

Look, I don't want this to linger on. I only meant what the words say - during my time as a psychologist I listened carefully to around 3,000 people talk. I believe I could understand the conversations we had and where they were coming from. When faced with patterns of thinking that I can't relate to on this ng I do feel a sense of strangeness. Maybe it is my own failure to understand - who knows? I'm older now than I was then. I'm happy to include the possibility that I just think in a fundamentally different way. Whatever it is, it has nothing whatsoever to do with psychoanalysis and I'm not impersonating anybody. I'm only experiencing what in other words is "What We’ve Got Here is a Failure to Communicate"......... No offence was meant.

On 9/14/22 7:14 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 9/14/2022 4:54 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
>>> Anybody who voted for Trump is a right wing ultra nationalist racist
>>> piece of shit. What's so complicated?
>>
>> OK, but then what do you say to all those who "voted for Trump, a
>> right wing ultra nationalist racist piece of shit."?
>>
>> And those who actually want this right wing ultra nationalist racist
>> piece of shit to return to office?
>
> I can't tell if you didn't understand that my comment was hyperbolic and
> sarcastic, but I suspect you did.
>
> What you don't realize, I think, is that many people a) don't think
> Trump is as low a character as you do, or even if they don't like his
> character, support him because they like a sufficient number of his
> policies, many of which have nothing to do with race or nationalism.  In
> other words, most people are multiple-issue people.  The fact that a few
> of his supporters are pieces of shit doesn't mean all his supporters
> are, but it serves the Left's political purposes and their need for
> moral superiority to assert so.
>

Precisely.

Bob Harper

On 9/14/22 10:13 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
>> What you don't realize, I think, is that many people a) don't think Trump is as low a character as you do, or even if they don't like his character, support him because they like a sufficient number of his policies, many of which have nothing to do with race or nationalism. In other words, most people are multiple-issue people. The fact that a few of his supporters are pieces of shit doesn't mean all his supporters are, but it serves the Left's political purposes and their need for moral superiority to assert so.
>
> Well, first of all there no "Left" parties in the USA. Just right wing and a bit less right wing. And of course all parties aim to represent the moral high ground for their political purposes so we can disregard that comment.

AOC and the Squad are hardly 'right wing', nor is Bernie Sanders, and
they enjoy outsize influence in the public discourse over here.

Bob Harper
>
> But yes, Trump had policies that appealed to many in the electorate, that's clear. But his withdrawal from the Paris Agreement and refusal to take action on climate change is unforgivable. And Republicans MUST take responsibility for voting for that. I'm not ever going to forgive US voters who prolong the wait for action on climate change in the USA. Their actions affect the whole world including me in the UK. So no forgiveness for voters who delay the action that is so urgently needed. In the UK we had record summer heat and fires. And that was mild compared to droughts, famine, widespread fires, floods and heat deaths in several other countries. Wake up, guys, wake up.

On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 11:20:40 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> Feeling shocked and sad. She was loved by everyone.
>
> I think the UK is feeling quite fragile right now.

https://tenor.com/view/rodney-king-get-along-gif-22105666

On 9/15/2022 12:26 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
>> "I've spent 30 years as a psychologist listening carefully to around 3,000 people talk, but the thought processes behind your statements are frequently so strange that I have the greatest difficulty in understanding what kind of mind produces them."
>>
>> This could not sound more like an analyst speaking could it? He sought to use his psychology degree to buttress his statement. He's free to say whatever he wants about me, as are you. As far as I know, you've never felt the need to impersonate a credentialed expert in criticizing me. What he did is unprofessional. I am not required to know that, based on other posts of his, what kind of a psychologist he really is. Not that that would matter in the least.>>
>
> Look, I don't want this to linger on. I only meant what the words say - during my time as a psychologist I listened carefully to around 3,000 people talk. I believe I could understand the conversations we had and where they were coming from. When faced with patterns of thinking that I can't relate to on this ng I do feel a sense of strangeness. Maybe it is my own failure to understand - who knows? I'm older now than I was then. I'm happy to include the possibility that I just think in a fundamentally different way. Whatever it is, it has nothing whatsoever to do with psychoanalysis and I'm not impersonating anybody. I'm only experiencing what in other words is "What We’ve Got Here is a Failure to Communicate"......... No offence was meant.

If this is intended as an apology, I accept.

On 9/15/2022 12:31 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 9/14/22 7:14 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 9/14/2022 4:54 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
>>>> Anybody who voted for Trump is a right wing ultra nationalist racist piece of shit. What's so complicated?
>>>
>>> OK, but then what do you say to all those who "voted for Trump, a right wing ultra nationalist racist piece of shit."?
>>>
>>> And those who actually want this right wing ultra nationalist racist piece of shit to return to office?
>>
>> I can't tell if you didn't understand that my comment was hyperbolic and sarcastic, but I suspect you did.
>>
>> What you don't realize, I think, is that many people a) don't think Trump is as low a character as you do, or even if they don't like his character, support him because they like a sufficient number of his policies, many of which have nothing to do with race or nationalism.  In other words, most people are multiple-issue people.  The fact that a few of his supporters are pieces of shit doesn't mean all his supporters are, but it serves the Left's political purposes and their need for moral superiority to assert so.
>>
>
> Precisely.
>
> Bob Harper
>

As I said, few people are one issue voters. It brings to mind the large number of American Jews, who continue to vote Democratic, although they are Zionists, and many leaders thinkers in the Democratic part are ardently anti-Israel. The take cover by claiming to be against a particular Israeli government, like Netanyahu's, when the policies of the major parties in Israel vis a vis the Palestinians is not that much different. No Israeli government is going to turn over the West Bank to the Palestinians for a state at the present time. No one believes such a state will be anything but a base for terror against Israel except non-thinking (or perhaps knowing) Leftists.

On 9/15/2022 12:35 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 9/14/22 10:13 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
>>> What you don't realize, I think, is that many people a) don't think Trump is as low a character as you do, or even if they don't like his character, support him because they like a sufficient number of his policies, many of which have nothing to do with race or nationalism. In other words, most people are multiple-issue people. The fact that a few of his supporters are pieces of shit doesn't mean all his supporters are, but it serves the Left's political purposes and their need for moral superiority to assert so.
>>
>> Well, first of all there no "Left" parties in the USA. Just right wing and a bit less right wing. And of course all parties aim to represent the moral high ground for their political purposes so we can disregard that comment.
>
> AOC and the Squad are hardly 'right wing', nor is Bernie Sanders, and they enjoy outsize influence in the public discourse over here.
>
> Bob Harper
>>

As I said, defining the center as what you believe is the height of arrogance. You can believe you are correct without believing your are near the center of the spectrum.

>> But yes, Trump had policies that appealed to many in the electorate, that's clear. But his withdrawal from the Paris Agreement and refusal to take action on climate change is unforgivable. And Republicans MUST take responsibility for voting for that. I'm not ever going to forgive US voters who prolong the wait for action on climate change in the USA. Their actions affect the whole world including me in the UK. So no forgiveness for voters who delay the action that is so urgently needed. In the UK we had record summer heat and fires. And that was mild compared to droughts, famine, widespread fires, floods and heat deaths in several other countries. Wake up, guys, wake up.
>
>

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 8:16:47 PM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> If this is intended as an apology, I accept.

In any real world you should be the one who should be apologizing, with your moronic accusations of malfeasance because of your obtuse misunderstanding of what Andy used to do, and doubling down on that misundertsanding with more accusations.

You're really a very bad man.

On 9/15/2022 3:03 PM, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 8:16:47 PM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>> If this is intended as an apology, I accept.
>
> In any real world you should be the one who should be apologizing, with your moronic accusations of malfeasance because of your obtuse misunderstanding of what Andy used to do, and doubling down on that misundertsanding with more accusations.
>

I've simply described what he had done and said. People who don't support climate change are not to be "forgiven"
He defines his own political position as the political center.
He analyzes me incorrectly and inappropriately, impersonating a psychoanalyst.

These are facts. Other than this I'm sure Andy is a fine fellow.

> You're really a very bad man.

Right.

> He analyzes me incorrectly and inappropriately, impersonating a psychoanalyst.
> > These are facts. Other than this I'm sure Andy is a fine fellow.

Please stop saying this nonsense. I've never ever practised as a psychoanalyst and I never had any wish to. Like all coaching psychologists I worked in the present, not the past. Coaching isn't therapy, it doesn't pretend to be and it has entirely its own set of guidelines which doesn't include any kind of analysis. Look it up if you don't believe me. All this "psychoanalysis" stuff is in your own head because it appears to be something in your own past life. Whatever that was I really don't want to know, and it has absolutely nothing to do with me. There are no facts in what you say - it's all pure invention on your part and I am asking you to stop further propagation of this fantasy that you have created.

>On 9/15/2022 4:49 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
>> He analyzes me incorrectly and inappropriately, impersonating a psychoanalyst.
>>> These are facts. Other than this I'm sure Andy is a fine fellow.
>
> Please stop saying this nonsense. I've never ever practised as a psychoanalyst and I never had any wish to.

You've made that clear already.

> Like all coaching psychologists I worked in the present, not the past. Coaching isn't therapy, it doesn't pretend to be and it has entirely its own set of guidelines which doesn't include any >kind of analysis. Look it up if you don't believe me. All this "psychoanalysis" stuff is in your own head because it appears to be something in your own past life.

There you go again. You can't stop, can you?

>Whatever that was I really don't want to know,

I explained my exposure to therapy and it was only in response to Herman's assertion that I knew nothing about it. It was no big deal for me, aside from it's positive effects on my parents' relationship. You are trying to make something out of nothing. It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

> and it has absolutely nothing to do with me. There are no facts in what you say - it's all pure invention on your part and I am asking you to stop further propagation of this fantasy that you have created.

Who said my moderate exposure to therapy had anything to do with you. Not me.

I've explained what I object to in your statements/behavior in this conversation and now you don't even seem to know what I'm talking about. This therapy stuff is a diversion.

You said:

"I've spent 30 years as a psychologist listening carefully to around 3,000 people talk, but the thought processes behind your statements are frequently so strange that I have the greatest difficulty in understanding what kind of mind produces them."

This sounds you are analyzing me and you made it sound like you are an analyst (on purpose or not I don't know). At this point you should just say, "I shouldn't have said it that way" and the conversation would be over.

I also object to your attributing evil to people who don't support efforts to attenuate the effects of global warming. Don't deny. You've said you won't ever forgive them. Point made.

There are no other issues in this conversation.

Please stay focused.

> There are no other issues in this conversation.
>

This isn't a conversation. There is no connection and no shared meaning. It has none of the basic requirements of a conversation. Maybe you can now start to understand why attempting any kind of communication with you is so difficult.

Since this isn't a conversation in the first place, I'm not going to take it any further. That's it.

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 2:21:21 PM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > There are no other issues in this conversation.
>
> This isn't a conversation. There is no connection and no shared
> meaning. It has none of the basic requirements of a conversation.

Welcome to the 21st century.

dk

On 9/15/2022 5:21 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
>> There are no other issues in this conversation.
>>
>
> This isn't a conversation. There is no connection and no shared meaning. It has none of the basic requirements of a conversation. Maybe you can now start to understand why attempting any kind of communication with you is so difficult.
>
> Since this isn't a conversation in the first place, I'm not going to take it any further. That's it.

The fact is, I have made basically two simple points and you have refused to engage them. You should have quit long ago. I was hoping to get you to see my point of view. What were you trying to accomplish?

Oh, I forgot. You have disengaged. Again.

> > This isn't a conversation. There is no connection and no shared
> > meaning. It has none of the basic requirements of a conversation.

> Welcome to the 21st century.
> > dk

That would be funny if it didn't have elements of truth in it. Well, actually it's funny anyway. It made me laugh.

What makes me laugh about the 21st century is that if you told a typist in 1922 that typewriter keyboards were going to be replaced by devices the size of your hand that you could hardly get your fingers around they would think you were barking mad.

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/15/1123151802/king-charles-iii-inheritance-tax

If this creep had the slightest trace of decency in him
he would donate to charity the amount equivalent to
the estate tax waived.

End the British monarchy! End all monarchies!

dk

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 2:35:53 PM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> What makes me laugh about the 21st century is that if you told a typist in
> 1922 that typewriter keyboards were going to be replaced by devices the
> size of your hand that you could hardly get your fingers around they would
> think you were barking mad.

if you told anyone in 1922 that a British king would give up the throne so he
could marry an American divorcee they would think you were barking mad.

Life has a tendency to become stranger than fiction.

dk

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 3:23:53 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 2:35:53 PM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> >
> > What makes me laugh about the 21st century is that if you told a typist in
> > 1922 that typewriter keyboards were going to be replaced by devices the
> > size of your hand that you could hardly get your fingers around they would
> > think you were barking mad.
> if you told anyone in 1922 that a British king would give up the throne so he
> could marry an American divorcee they would think you were barking mad.

And she wasn't divorced just once.

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 3:46:18 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 3:23:53 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 2:35:53 PM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > >
> > > What makes me laugh about the 21st century is that if you told a typist in
> > > 1922 that typewriter keyboards were going to be replaced by devices the
> > > size of your hand that you could hardly get your fingers around they would
> > > think you were barking mad.
> > if you told anyone in 1922 that a British king would give up the throne so he
> > could marry an American divorcee they would think you were barking mad.
> And she wasn't divorced just once.

That was probably a bonus point.

dk