On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 2:13:42 PM UTC-8, Notsure01 wrote:
>
> For those that follow Hockey there is an expression (Rodney Dangerfield)
> "I went to a fight the other night, and a hockey game broke out". My
> hope is that folks will take a time out from this fight here and
> discussion of Classical Recordings will break out...

Whom are you kidding? While this newsgroup is nominally about
recordings of classical music (however one defines its boundaries),
in reality it just a forum for old people to revel in reminiscing about
the recordings they heard 50+ years ago. Hardly anyone mentions
more recent performances (say, post 1990), and then often only
as pivots to point out how inferior they are to the older ones.

As everyone knows, during the 4th century BC the Greeks were
bemoaning the 5th century BC when everything was so much
"better". During the 3rd century BC they bemoaned the 4th,
and so on. There seems to be a deeply ingrained human
feature to embelish older times and to try to relive one's
childhood experiences. This ng is no different. There is
little if any discussion of music and music performances
in this ng, except for pissing contests about the "best"
version of some musical work.

dk

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 5:41:28 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Whom are you kidding? While this newsgroup is nominally about
> recordings of classical music (however one defines its boundaries),
> in reality it just a forum for old people to revel in reminiscing about
> the recordings they heard 50+ years ago. Hardly anyone mentions
> more recent performances (say, post 1990), and then often only
> as pivots to point out how inferior they are to the older ones.

That's a charicature. But yeah, I could do a year without the name 'Szell'. Or 'Heifetz' for that matter. (Ring a bell?) However, few people here, among them you, seem to be aware composing CM did not stop in the year 1900. I think Todd mentioned this strange phenom.
>
> As everyone knows, during the 4th century BC the Greeks were
> bemoaning the 5th century BC when everything was so much
> "better".

they had a reason. If you mean 'Athens' by 'the Greeks' (which is what most people do), they had disastrously lost the war to Sparta (413); their fleet had been destroyed, and thus their empire was gone, and there had been a devastating coup by a small band of aristocrats who methodically killed whoever they could not use and took their money and land. After a little while the Macedonians came and took over. For the Athenians who wrote history or philosophy, the ones through whose lens we even know about this, life had irrevocably changed.

On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 9:11:26 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 5:41:28 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Whom are you kidding? While this newsgroup is nominally about
> > recordings of classical music (however one defines its boundaries),
> > in reality it just a forum for old people to revel in reminiscing about
> > the recordings they heard 50+ years ago. Hardly anyone mentions
> > more recent performances (say, post 1990), and then often only
> > as pivots to point out how inferior they are to the older ones.
>
> That's a charicature.

A simplified summary, not a caricature.

> But yeah, I could do a year without the name 'Szell'.

But can you do a year without the name Haitink ?!? ;-)

> Or 'Heifetz' for that matter. (Ring a bell?)

Never liked him. Not a bell I would notice.

> However, few people here, among them you,
> seem to be aware composing CM did not stop
> in the year 1900. I think Todd mentioned this
> strange phenom.

We can probably stop it if we try hard enough! ;-)

> > As everyone knows, during the 4th century BC the Greeks were
> > bemoaning the 5th century BC when everything was so much
> > "better".
>
> they had a reason. If you mean 'Athens' by
> 'the Greeks' (which is what most people do),

The other Greeks did not write as much.

> they had disastrously lost the war to Sparta
> (413); their fleet had been destroyed, and thus
> their empire was gone, and there had been a
> devastating coup by a small band of aristocrats
> who methodically killed whoever they could not
> use and took their money and land. After a little
> while the Macedonians came and took over. For
> the Athenians who wrote history or philosophy,
> the ones through whose lens we even know
> about this, life had irrevocably changed.

There are always reasons, sometimes obvious,
sometimes less obvious. The specific reasons
for the Athenians' unhappiness may have been
more painful and more obvious, but people all
over the world have always complained, and
keep complaining, that 30 years earlier (or fill
in your own numbers) life was "better" than it
is now.

Life changes irrevocably all the time, one
just doesn't notice the changes until they
accumulate to a higher threshold.

In this particular ng, it has been an uphill
battle to make people even notice there
were (and are) other conductors beside
Toscanini, Walter, Furtwangler, Karajan,
Szell, Monteux and Rattle. Or pianists
other than Richter and Arrau. Or even
fiddlers other than Mutter and Faust.

dk

Both Anne-Sophie Mutter and Isabelle Faust are living, contemporary performers, who also, as it happens, perform contemporary music, even though they play the occasional LvB concerto to fill seats. Your musical tastes however are an exact replica of what star performers in 1950 liked and played.

On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 16:25:57 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 9:11:26 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> > On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 5:41:28 AM UTC+1, dan....gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Whom are you kidding? While this newsgroup is nominally about
> > > recordings of classical music (however one defines its boundaries),
> > > in reality it just a forum for old people to revel in reminiscing about
> > > the recordings they heard 50+ years ago. Hardly anyone mentions
> > > more recent performances (say, post 1990), and then often only
> > > as pivots to point out how inferior they are to the older ones.
> >
> > That's a charicature.
> A simplified summary, not a caricature.
> > But yeah, I could do a year without the name 'Szell'.
> But can you do a year without the name Haitink ?!? ;-)
> > Or 'Heifetz' for that matter. (Ring a bell?)
> Never liked him. Not a bell I would notice.
> > However, few people here, among them you,
> > seem to be aware composing CM did not stop
> > in the year 1900. I think Todd mentioned this
> > strange phenom.
> We can probably stop it if we try hard enough! ;-)
> > > As everyone knows, during the 4th century BC the Greeks were
> > > bemoaning the 5th century BC when everything was so much
> > > "better".
> >
> > they had a reason. If you mean 'Athens' by
> > 'the Greeks' (which is what most people do),
> The other Greeks did not write as much.
> > they had disastrously lost the war to Sparta
> > (413); their fleet had been destroyed, and thus
> > their empire was gone, and there had been a
> > devastating coup by a small band of aristocrats
> > who methodically killed whoever they could not
> > use and took their money and land. After a little
> > while the Macedonians came and took over. For
> > the Athenians who wrote history or philosophy,
> > the ones through whose lens we even know
> > about this, life had irrevocably changed.
> There are always reasons, sometimes obvious,
> sometimes less obvious. The specific reasons
> for the Athenians' unhappiness may have been
> more painful and more obvious, but people all
> over the world have always complained, and
> keep complaining, that 30 years earlier (or fill
> in your own numbers) life was "better" than it
> is now.
>
> Life changes irrevocably all the time, one
> just doesn't notice the changes until they
> accumulate to a higher threshold.
>
> In this particular ng, it has been an uphill
> battle to make people even notice there
> were (and are) other conductors beside
> Toscanini, Walter, Furtwangler, Karajan,
> Szell, Monteux and Rattle.

I have no need to duplicate repertoire all covered extremely well by the greats, on CD, and in good sound, To, Fu and Ra excepted for various reasons.

> Or pianists
> other than Richter and Arrau.

They all play the same repertoire give or take a few notes. Boringville. Yawn.

> Or even
> fiddlers other than Mutter and Faust.
>

Likewise.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 9:11:26 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 5:41:28 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Whom are you kidding? While this newsgroup is nominally about
> > recordings of classical music (however one defines its boundaries),
> > in reality it just a forum for old people to revel in reminiscing about
> > the recordings they heard 50+ years ago. Hardly anyone mentions
> > more recent performances (say, post 1990), and then often only
> > as pivots to point out how inferior they are to the older ones.
> That's a charicature. But yeah, I could do a year without the name 'Szell'. Or 'Heifetz' for that matter. (Ring a bell?) However, few people here, among them you, seem to be aware composing CM did not stop in the year 1900. I think Todd mentioned this strange phenom.
> >
> > As everyone knows, during the 4th century BC the Greeks were
> > bemoaning the 5th century BC when everything was so much
> > "better".
> they had a reason. If you mean 'Athens' by 'the Greeks' (which is what most people do), they had disastrously lost the war to Sparta (413); their fleet had been destroyed, and thus their empire was gone, and there had been a devastating coup by a small band of aristocrats who methodically killed whoever they could not use and took their money and land. After a little while the Macedonians came and took over. For the Athenians who wrote history or philosophy, the ones through whose lens we even know about this, life had irrevocably changed.

According to this 2022 book:

- Throughout world history, the monarchs who have wielded the greatest amount of power are those who enjoy broad popular support, generally from the lower classes. Such monarchs are often spearheaded to power by overthrowing an aristocratic regime. This enables them to rule as populists in the interests of the many and against the interests of the elite. Examples include most of the Greek "tyrants" of the period 650 to 530 BCE...

https://books.google.com/books?id=5sNdEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT344&dq=%22Throughout+world+history,+the+monarchs+who+have+wielded+the+greatest+amount+of+power%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiZkdiw0Zv7AhXfLkQIHZU7BxUQ6AF6BAgHEAI#v=onepage&q=%22Throughout%20world%20history%2C%20the%20monarchs%20who%20have%20wielded%20the%20greatest%20amount%20of%20power%22%22&f=false

On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 04:05:10 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 11/6/2022 10:29 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

> Fortunately, what is "obviously evident" to you (Ray) is not so to most people.

How do you know? It's obvious to me too.

>I am interested in defending Israel from you poisoned mind and poison pen in the minds of others who might read what you have to say. Go ahead, maybe you can bring others to your way of thinking.

You don't need to "bring others to a way of thinking" if they're there already.

>To quote Obama, you are SO on the wrong side of history....

The actions of the state of Israel are highly contentious at the highest political level including the UN, as you well know. But I am NOT going to discuss that on this newsgroup.

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 9:50:22 AM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> You don't need to "bring others to a way of thinking" if they're there already.
>
Haha, I suspect few people come to a music group and get their minds changed / poisoned (take your pick) on Israel / Palestine.
Heck, I suspect few people have even changed their mind about music here. except perhaps my getting sick and tired of anything connected to pianophilia.

On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 9:41:15 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
>
> Both Anne-Sophie Mutter and Isabelle Faust are living,

So they say.

> contemporary performers, who also, as it happens,
> perform contemporary music, even though they play
> the occasional LvB concerto to fill seats.

I wasn't referring to their repertoire. I was referring
to their screechy (Faust) woobly (Mutter) sounds.

> Your musical tastes however are an exact replica
> of what star performers in 1950 liked and played.

?!? Making things up again ?!?

dk

On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 09:04:33 UTC, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 9:41:15 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> > Both Anne-Sophie Mutter and Isabelle Faust are living,

> So they say.
> dk

Haha! Bring back Alfredo Campoli. Now THAT was a violin player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uObvTN7NvsM&t=69s

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 10:04:33 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 9:41:15 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> >
> I wasn't referring to their repertoire. I was referring
> to their screechy (Faust) woobly (Mutter) sounds.

> ?!? Making things up again ?!?
>
Right, I remember, at the time I said you really have no idea what you're talking about. I don't like ASM a lot, I don't have a single cd of hers, but technically she can do anything she wants on a violin, and the same goes for Faust, who has the advantage of relative youth over ASM. This prompted you to say that Faust was my violin goddess, which somehow made me an anti-semite. So... talking about making things up...

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 2:36:37 AM UTC+10:30, Frank Berger wrote:
> I am not defending Dan's "personality" at all. I object to unsupported accusations, hyperbole, exaggeration and distortion for political or personal reasons. Even when Dan does it.

Hey Dan Koren / Frank Berger. You only need one account buddy!
You're a genius, humanitarian and scientist that is much loved by Elohim.
Here are some interesting links for your exceptional mind to digest.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.judaism.orthodox
https://groups.google.com/g/israelimusic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzoah_Rotachat

mazal tov!

Op maandag 7 november 2022 om 09:50:22 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
> On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 04:05:10 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 11/6/2022 10:29 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> > Fortunately, what is "obviously evident" to you (Ray) is not so to most people.
>
> How do you know? It's obvious to me too.

It's obvious to many. Israel is just another 21st century nation, nothing special.

Henk

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 6:51:47 PM UTC+10:30, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 9:11:26 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> > On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 5:41:28 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Whom are you kidding? While this newsgroup is nominally about
> > > recordings of classical music (however one defines its boundaries),
> > > in reality it just a forum for old people to revel in reminiscing about
> > > the recordings they heard 50+ years ago. Hardly anyone mentions
> > > more recent performances (say, post 1990), and then often only
> > > as pivots to point out how inferior they are to the older ones.
> > That's a charicature. But yeah, I could do a year without the name 'Szell'. Or 'Heifetz' for that matter. (Ring a bell?) However, few people here, among them you, seem to be aware composing CM did not stop in the year 1900. I think Todd mentioned this strange phenom.
> > >
> > > As everyone knows, during the 4th century BC the Greeks were
> > > bemoaning the 5th century BC when everything was so much
> > > "better".
> > they had a reason. If you mean 'Athens' by 'the Greeks' (which is what most people do), they had disastrously lost the war to Sparta (413); their fleet had been destroyed, and thus their empire was gone, and there had been a devastating coup by a small band of aristocrats who methodically killed whoever they could not use and took their money and land. After a little while the Macedonians came and took over. For the Athenians who wrote history or philosophy, the ones through whose lens we even know about this, life had irrevocably changed.
> According to this 2022 book:
>
> - Throughout world history, the monarchs who have wielded the greatest amount of power are those who enjoy broad popular support, generally from the lower classes. Such monarchs are often spearheaded to power by overthrowing an aristocratic regime. This enables them to rule as populists in the interests of the many and against the interests of the elite. Examples include most of the Greek "tyrants" of the period 650 to 530 BCE...
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=5sNdEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT344&dq=%22Throughout+world+history,+the+monarchs+who+have+wielded+the+greatest+amount+of+power%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiZkdiw0Zv7AhXfLkQIHZU7BxUQ6AF6BAgHEAI#v=onepage&q=%22Throughout%20world%20history%2C%20the%20monarchs%20who%20have%20wielded%20the%20greatest%20amount%20of%20power%22%22&f=false

That book lists Mao Zedong as a populist. He caused the largest famine in written history.......... Almost entirely poor peasants............

Manypeopletrytosee99 schrieb am Montag, 7. November 2022 um 10:48:43 UTC+1:
> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 2:36:37 AM UTC+10:30, Frank Berger wrote:
> > I am not defending Dan's "personality" at all. I object to unsupported accusations, hyperbole, exaggeration and distortion for political or personal reasons. Even when Dan does it.
>
>
> Hey Dan Koren / Frank Berger. You only need one account buddy!
> You're a genius, humanitarian and scientist that is much loved by Elohim.
> Here are some interesting links for your exceptional mind to digest.
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.judaism.orthodox
> https://groups.google.com/g/israelimusic
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzoah_Rotachat
>
> mazal tov!

Another antisemite in this group? Oh hell no... Or is this pluted pup?

Frank is not Dan, Dan is not Frank - get your head out of your ass you fucking idiot.

Manypeopletrytosee99 schrieb am Sonntag, 6. November 2022 um 08:07:00 UTC+1:
> On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 7:50:36 PM UTC+10:30, Andy Evans wrote:
> > Dan is eccentric.That's pretty much all you need to know.
> >
> > Interestingly, eccentric people generally enjoy good mental health. Freedom from convention, probably.
>
> Reading through the whole history it is obvious that Dan is a Jewish narcissist that
> demands more mentions of Jewish artists or he will accuse you of racism (antisemitism)
> and carry on, prattling away forever like a petty supremacist psychopath.
> Claiming victimhood whilst verbally assaulting you because he lost control.
>
> The world would be a better place if every person with the personality of Dan just learned when to stop talking!
>
> I come here to this group and this is the first topic I find. What is going on lol

Someone seems to be jealous of the jewish religion and jews... projecting his own failures at dan...

Manypeopletrytosee99 schrieb am Sonntag, 6. November 2022 um 08:07:00 UTC+1:
> On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 7:50:36 PM UTC+10:30, Andy Evans wrote:
> > Dan is eccentric.That's pretty much all you need to know.
> >
> > Interestingly, eccentric people generally enjoy good mental health. Freedom from convention, probably.
>
> Reading through the whole history it is obvious that Dan is a Jewish narcissist that
> demands more mentions of Jewish artists or he will accuse you of racism (antisemitism)
> and carry on, prattling away forever like a petty supremacist psychopath.
> Claiming victimhood whilst verbally assaulting you because he lost control.
>
> The world would be a better place if every person with the personality of Dan just learned when to stop talking!
>
> I come here to this group and this is the first topic I find. What is going on lol

Someone seems to be jealous of the jewish religion and the jews... projecting all his own failures onto Dan...

Manypeopletrytosee99 schrieb am Montag, 7. November 2022 um 10:48:43 UTC+1:
> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 2:36:37 AM UTC+10:30, Frank Berger wrote:
> > I am not defending Dan's "personality" at all. I object to unsupported accusations, hyperbole, exaggeration and distortion for political or personal reasons. Even when Dan does it.
>
>
> Hey Dan Koren / Frank Berger. You only need one account buddy!
> You're a genius, humanitarian and scientist that is much loved by Elohim.
> Here are some interesting links for your exceptional mind to digest.
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.judaism.orthodox
> https://groups.google.com/g/israelimusic
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzoah_Rotachat
>
> mazal tov!

Here are some interesting links for your antisemitic mind to consider:

How about converting to islam? Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran
And how about joining hamas afterwards? Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

You would fit in perfectly with the hamas or hezbollah people, trust me ;)

On 11/7/2022 3:50 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 04:05:10 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 11/6/2022 10:29 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Fortunately, what is "obviously evident" to you (Ray) is not so to most people.
>
> How do you know? It's obvious to me too.
>
>> I am interested in defending Israel from you poisoned mind and poison pen in the minds of others who might read what you have to say. Go ahead, maybe you can bring others to your way of thinking.
>
> You don't need to "bring others to a way of thinking" if they're there already.
>
>> To quote Obama, you are SO on the wrong side of history....
>
> The actions of the state of Israel are highly contentious at the highest political level including the UN, as you well know. But I am NOT going to discuss that on this newsgroup.
>

But you just did. You couldn't resist. LOL.

On 11/7/2022 5:11 AM, HT wrote:
> Op maandag 7 november 2022 om 09:50:22 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
>> On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 04:05:10 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 11/6/2022 10:29 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Fortunately, what is "obviously evident" to you (Ray) is not so to most people.
>>
>> How do you know? It's obvious to me too.
>
> It's obvious to many. Israel is just another 21st century nation, nothing special.
>
> Henk

By saying, "just another 21st century nation," I think you imply a right to exist, not? Others do not agree. No one is talking about Israel being "special."

> By saying, "just another 21st century nation," I think you imply a right to exist, not? Others do not agree. No one is talking about Israel being "special."

Amnesty International is not saying Israel should not exist. It has problems with how it acts. Some think Israel deserves special consideration. I once thought so too. That was a long time ago.

"Just a 21st century nation" also implies that Israel is no better or worse than other nations today. Human rights are not safe anywhere - except perhaps in Andorra, Liechtenstein and the like.

Henk

On 11/7/2022 9:18 AM, HT wrote:
>
>> By saying, "just another 21st century nation," I think you imply a right to exist, not? Others do not agree. No one is talking about Israel being "special."
>
> Amnesty International is not saying Israel should not exist. It has problems with how it acts. Some think Israel deserves special consideration. I once thought so too. That was a long time ago.
>
> "Just a 21st century nation" also implies that Israel is no better or worse than other nations today. Human rights are not safe anywhere - except perhaps in Andorra, Liechtenstein and the like.
>
> Henk

The Amnesty Internatnational document starts from the assumption that a rightful native Palestinian population was expelled and the land occupied by newcomer Jews. This is one view. There are others. IF you start from the position that Israel is an occupying power then a lot follows that wouldn't otherwise.

hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Montag, 7. November 2022 um 15:18:54 UTC+1:
> > By saying, "just another 21st century nation," I think you imply a right to exist, not? Others do not agree. No one is talking about Israel being "special."
> Amnesty International is not saying Israel should not exist. It has problems with how it acts. Some think Israel deserves special consideration. I once thought so too. That was a long time ago.
>
Amnesty International is in itself antisemitic, it declared israel an appartheid state. Completely ludicrious. For people who don't know much about the history of this conflict it probably looks like "technologized 1st world country against bedouin arabs" or something, giving the impression that Israel is the devil... and this gets exploited.

https://unwatch.org/video-hillel-neuer-on-amnestys-israel-apartheid-sky-news-australia-interview/

There were protests in Iran for a quite a while with children, women and men being murdered and amnesty failed to report on it until recently. Otoh when "Palestinians" rise up violently against Israel (for nothing), they report on it immediately casting blame solely on Israel.

https://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1572371832283533314

Efforts to address antisemitism by Amnesty International: 0

https://twitter.com/hillelneuer/status/1489382328711454723

Hillel Neuer is an international lawyer working for the UN Watch - an NGO monitoring if the UN keeps its promises.

Also:

To put things into perspective: Iran sits on the coucil of women's rights in the UN. And it's not like it isn't completely obvious that they are shitting on human rights... So why are they there in the first place?

And as of yet UN has failed to address the atrocities comitted by the Islamic Regime of Iran:

https://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1580728116401430529

Pakistan, and Cuba, and Qatar etc sit on the Human Rights Council of the UN (UNHRC): https://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1580736314940747777

If the the west wants to defend human rights according to its principles we cannot allow this.

The Germans have caused themselves and also the West some trauma I think in regards to "nationalism", people today seem to think that "nationalism" is inherently bad. And western people today have lost every sense of pride about their history.

Op maandag 7 november 2022 om 15:37:08 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

> The Amnesty Internatnational document starts from the assumption that a rightful native Palestinian population was expelled and the land occupied by newcomer Jews. This is one view. There are others. IF you start from the position that Israel is an occupying power then a lot follows that wouldn't otherwise.

Unless the books of Moses are a guide in one's life, occupation is the only narrative that does justice to the facts. But after some time, it was internationally agreed that the occupied territories could become a Jewish state. Israel has since occupied more territory. There is no international agreement on that yet.

Amnesty is about human rights, not borders. It examines how nations/states treat their citizens and the inhabitants of occupied territories. The 21st century has started badly in this regard. Israel is no exception.

Henk

On 11/7/2022 11:42 AM, HT wrote:
> Op maandag 7 november 2022 om 15:37:08 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
>
>> The Amnesty Internatnational document starts from the assumption that a rightful native Palestinian population was expelled and the land occupied by newcomer Jews. This is one view. There are others. IF you start from the position that Israel is an occupying power then a lot follows that wouldn't otherwise.
>
> Unless the books of Moses are a guide in one's life, occupation is the only narrative that does justice to the facts. But after some time, it was internationally agreed that the occupied territories could become a Jewish state. Israel has since occupied more territory. There is no international agreement on that yet.
>
> Amnesty is about human rights, not borders. It examines how nations/states treat their citizens and the inhabitants of occupied territories. The 21st century has started badly in this regard. Israel is no exception.
>
> Henk

I have trouble countenancing references to generalized accusations of human rights violations by Israel or anybody else unless such accusations are specific enough to lead to rational consideration and discussion. Otherwise, such accusations amount to nothing more than name calling. The strategy, of course, in the case of Israel bashers, is that if you accuse them of generalized human rights violations enough people might come to believe it.