Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.

I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam

On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 02:10:32 UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
>
> I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
> --
> Roland van Gaalen
> Amsterdam

I often feel the same way about the symphony it followed, as often remarked upon, namely the LvB 9th. A grandiose type of pomposity was not considered amiss in the times these works were written.

Ray Hall, Taree

Ray Hall wrote:
> On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 02:10:32 UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> > Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
> >
> > I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
> > --
> > Roland van Gaalen
> > Amsterdam
> I often feel the same way about the symphony it followed, as often remarked upon, namely the LvB 9th.
> A grandiose type of pomposity was not considered amiss in the times these works were written.

Okay, but to me Beethoven 9 (or 3 or 5) doesn't sound like much ado about nothing.

Beethoven grabs you by the throat, as it were. And yet the music flows, except perhaps in the finale.

Brahms (in his first symphony) sounds as if he is trying very hard to overwhelm you too, again and again, actually.

Very subjective, of course. I wish I could articulate this difference (as I perceive it) better.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam

On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 10:24:45 AM UTC-8, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> Ray Hall wrote:
> > On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 02:10:32 UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> > > Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
> > >
> > > I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything,
> > > but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed
> > > it to sound like much ado about nothing!

Brahms suffered from terminal incurable seriousness.
Many of his orchestral works sound exactly as you
describe the 1st. Lots of dramatic peroration about
nothing at all. The German Requiem is absolutely
the worst.

> > I often feel the same way about the symphony it
> > followed, as often remarked upon, namely the LvB 9th.
> > A grandiose type of pomposity was not considered
> > amiss in the times these works were written.

You have great ears and excellent taste. I will put in
a recommendation for promotion from Purgatory to
Heaven in your next life! ;-)

> Okay, but to me Beethoven 9 (or 3 or 5) doesn't
> sound like much ado about nothing.

Even much ado about something is bad enough,

> Beethoven grabs you by the throat, as it were.

That is a felony in most legal systems.

> And yet the music flows, except perhaps in the
> finale.

Does it swamp the drain?

> Brahms (in his first symphony) sounds as if he
> is trying very hard to overwhelm you too, again
> and again, actually.
>
> Very subjective, of course. I wish I could articulate
> this difference (as I perceive it) better.

IMHO you articulated it brilliantly. Great job!

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

dk

On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 9:48:08 AM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I often feel the same way about the symphony it followed, as
> often remarked upon, namely the LvB 9th. A grandiose type of
> pomposity was not considered amiss in the times these works
> were written.

Pomposity was the name of the game in those times in
some countries. France and Italy suffered less from this
disease than Germany. The latter invented seriousness.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

dk

On 12/23/22 2:01 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 10:24:45 AM UTC-8, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
>> Ray Hall wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 02:10:32 UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
>>>> Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything,
>>>> but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed
>>>> it to sound like much ado about nothing!
>
> Brahms suffered from terminal incurable seriousness.
> Many of his orchestral works sound exactly as you
> describe the 1st.
>
> Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
>
> dk

When I think of the Brahms 1 (and the Piano Concerto 1) the Dohnanyi
"Variations on a nursery theme" comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K53Mth91Mqc

It starts with a perfect imitation of Brahmsian seriousness.

The Brahms of the first Serenade is greatly to be preferred.

Happy Holidays!

On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
>
> I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
> --
> Roland van Gaalen
> Amsterdam

There has, of course, been a revolution in Brahms orchestral performance practice in recent years. The Brown Windsor Soup approach is definitely on the way out.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 08:40:33 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> > Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
> >
> > I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
> > --
> > Roland van Gaalen
> > Amsterdam
> There has, of course, been a revolution in Brahms orchestral performance practice in recent years. The Brown Windsor Soup approach is definitely on the way out.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

I heard Boult do the Brahms 1st back whenever, and still remember being peeved that he wasn't doing a RVW symphony.

Ray Hall, Taree

On 12/23/22 4:40 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
>> Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
>>
>> I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
>> --
>> Roland van Gaalen
>> Amsterdam
>
> There has, of course, been a revolution in Brahms orchestral performance practice in recent years. The Brown Windsor Soup approach is definitely on the way out.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

I was puzzled by the reference to "Brown Windsor Soup" and finally got
around to looking it up. Of course there is a whole Wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_soup

Says there it "gained a reputation as indicative of bad English food
during the mid-20th century, and a later source of jokes, myths and
legends."

As an alternative to the soupy, thick, viscous style I tried Norrington:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylgl83OATRk

This is with his HIP band London Classical Players and it turned out to
be thin gruel indeed. Might be due to the unimaginative phrasing rather
than the small orchestra and "original instruments".

Or could just be mediocre conducting - Norrington has another YT
performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-S1CCDxld0

This is with the SWR Orchestra with standard instruments but little
vibrato, and again lacking in interpretive touches.

Assuming it is not a hopeless quest, I was wondering if folks have
versions they can recommend with thinner textures?

And Happy Holidays to all!

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 10:33:01 AM UTC+1, Notsure01 wrote:
> On 12/23/22 4:40 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> >> Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
> >>
> >> I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
> >> --
> >> Roland van Gaalen
> >> Amsterdam
> >
> > There has, of course, been a revolution in Brahms orchestral performance practice in recent years. The Brown Windsor Soup approach is definitely on the way out.
> >
> > Andrew Clarke
> > Canberra
> I was puzzled by the reference to "Brown Windsor Soup" and finally got
> around to looking it up. Of course there is a whole Wiki article:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_soup
>
> Says there it "gained a reputation as indicative of bad English food
> during the mid-20th century, and a later source of jokes, myths and
> legends."
>
> As an alternative to the soupy, thick, viscous style I tried Norrington:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylgl83OATRk
>
> This is with his HIP band London Classical Players and it turned out to
> be thin gruel indeed. Might be due to the unimaginative phrasing rather
> than the small orchestra and "original instruments".
>
> Or could just be mediocre conducting - Norrington has another YT
> performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-S1CCDxld0
>
> This is with the SWR Orchestra with standard instruments but little
> vibrato, and again lacking in interpretive touches.
>
New generation handling of Brahms music doesn't need to mean HIP instruments or eschewing vibrato. It just means NOT viewing Brahms as the eternally "autumnal" beard guy.

I have not checked out the various Norrington vids, however I have a hard time picturing him foregoing any "interpretative touches". He may however have tried not to indulge in the cliche "autumnal" touches some people are waiting for in Brahms.

Dan Koren wrote:
> Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Thank you! Happy holiday season to you too and a happy 2023!
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 8:33:01 PM UTC+11, Notsure01 wrote:
> On 12/23/22 4:40 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> >> Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
> >>
> >> I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
> >> --
> >> Roland van Gaalen
> >> Amsterdam
> >
> > There has, of course, been a revolution in Brahms orchestral performance practice in recent years. The Brown Windsor Soup approach is definitely on the way out.
> >
> > Andrew Clarke
> > Canberra
> I was puzzled by the reference to "Brown Windsor Soup" and finally got
> around to looking it up. Of course there is a whole Wiki article:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_soup
>
> Says there it "gained a reputation as indicative of bad English food
> during the mid-20th century, and a later source of jokes, myths and
> legends."
>
> As an alternative to the soupy, thick, viscous style I tried Norrington:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylgl83OATRk
>
> This is with his HIP band London Classical Players and it turned out to
> be thin gruel indeed. Might be due to the unimaginative phrasing rather
> than the small orchestra and "original instruments".
>
> Or could just be mediocre conducting - Norrington has another YT
> performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-S1CCDxld0
>
> This is with the SWR Orchestra with standard instruments but little
> vibrato, and again lacking in interpretive touches.
>
> Assuming it is not a hopeless quest, I was wondering if folks have
> versions they can recommend with thinner textures?
>
> And Happy Holidays to all!

What seems to have become the go-to HIP recording of the Brahms symphonies is that by Sir Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra. The main HIP elements are in the brass, with small-bore trombones, 'Vienna" horns and small-bore trumpets with rotary valves. This, according to Sir Charles's own notes, solved most balance problems at a stroke. IIRR he uses gut strings except for the top strings on the violins. The number of stringed instruments is of course much reduced, so the woodwinds don't have to fight their way through.

One endearing touch is where the violas divisi return with the principal theme in the slow movement of the Fourth symphony. In Brahms's day, this passage was played with two viola soloists in some performances, and Mackerras has adopted this practice. It really is lovely.

As for Brown Windsor, I can remember the 1950s, when money had to go a long, long way, and so we endured such substances as salad cream - a poor man's mayonnaise - sandwich spread, which looked and smelled a bit like vomit, fish cakes, to be served with over-boiled potato, and the dreaded Brown Windsor, usually an alternative to Cream of Tomato at cheap cafeteria chains.

Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.

More wonderful HIP here:

< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wTAhhGlDYw&t=25s >

I think the two lady violists on stage left are an item.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:12:46 PM UTC+1, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> More wonderful HIP here:
>
> < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wTAhhGlDYw&t=25s >
>
> I think the two lady violists on stage left are an item.
>
The lady violists (= viola players) sit between the keyboard and the celli, stage right.

Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
>
> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
>

That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
(Scottish Chamber Orchestra).

This review gives a lot more information:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/May/Brahms_sys_CKD601.htm

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 11:35:34 PM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:12:46 PM UTC+1, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > More wonderful HIP here:
> >
> > < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wTAhhGlDYw&t=25s >
> >
> > I think the two lady violists on stage left are an item.
> >
> The lady violists (= viola players) sit between the keyboard and the celli, stage right.

I believe the directions 'stage left' and 'stage right' are from the viewpoint of somebody on stage facing the audience. The alternative is that they are on the right of the stage, which assumes that this is from the point of view of the audience. In either case, there seems to be quite a number of private jokes and exchanges of glances. And the lady bassoonist looks a bit like the Princess of Wales from certain angles.

Andrew Clarke
born to be a violist
Canberra

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
> >
> > Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
> >
> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
>
Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.

Oh, okay, I get it, we were talking mirrorwise.
So, I guess you are implying violists have more fun?

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 5:23:39 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> Oh, okay, I get it, we were talking mirrorwise.
> So, I guess you are implying violists have more fun?

Violists have more brains than you have.

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 12:23:39 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> Oh, okay, I get it, we were talking mirrorwise.
> So, I guess you are implying violists have more fun?

Pianists kvetch, violists bratsch ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

In article <44006b82-22b2-47fa-bc51-7f8492fa722an@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew Clarke <andrewclarke437@gmail.com> wrote:
>What seems to have become the go-to HIP recording of the Brahms
>symphonies is that by Sir Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber
>Orchestra.

I was thinking you were talking about something newer, but these
are still the recordings from the 1990s? Just wanting to make sure
I'm following....

(I liked Mackerras' "Great C Major" from that era....)

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 5:25:24 AM UTC+11, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <44006b82-22b2-47fa...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew Clarke <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >What seems to have become the go-to HIP recording of the Brahms
> >symphonies is that by Sir Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber
> >Orchestra.
> I was thinking you were talking about something newer, but these
> are still the recordings from the 1990s? Just wanting to make sure
> I'm following....
>
> (I liked Mackerras' "Great C Major" from that era....)

They're the ones. I also own, and like, the Ticciati cycle with the same band and the same instruments. Incidentally, Ticciati said that the orchestra spent a good deal of time getting 'the Brahms sound' which is obviously, for him, not the Brown Windsor variety. I think they were looking for warmth and clarity.

I wonder how many Brahms cycles there have been since the Mackerras?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

In article <e291301c-57d8-46c3-8815-c0a31ea96fa5n@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew Clarke <andrewclarke437@gmail.com> wrote:
>I wonder how many Brahms cycles there have been since the Mackerras?

Wouldn't want to speculate... I might not even have the order of
magnitude correct! Among them though, I've long favored Gardiner.

On 12/25/22 1:53 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>
> I wonder how many Brahms cycles there have been since the Mackerras?
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

I really enjoyed Honeck's recent 4th with Pittsburgh and am hoping he
does a complete cycle.

While googling to see if I missed any newer release, I found this statement:

"Marek Janowski, recorded a first-rate Brahms cycle of very different
character not too long ago for PentaTone"

This is from, FWIW, a rave review by Hurwitz of the Honeck 4th:
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/honeck-and-pittsburgh-shine-in-brahms-fourth/

I also found an extremely interesting additional review of this 4th:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Nov/Brahms-sy4-FR744.htm

There have been numerous mentions here about "dancing about
architecture" - and a lot of "Apache Dancing" at RMCR - but this review
manages to explain really clearly what is so distinctive about the
Honeck performance...

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 12:23:15 PM UTC-8, Notsure01 wrote:
>
> There have been numerous mentions here about "dancing
> about architecture" - and a lot of "Apache Dancing" at RMCR -
> but this review manages to explain really clearly what is so
> distinctive about the Honeck performance...

Listeners who can hear need no "explanations".
Sounds like are you again fishing for consensus.

dk

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 10:53:39 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I wonder how many Brahms cycles
> there have been since the Mackerras?
>

At least half a dozen too many.

dk