On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 5:20:36 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
>
> I guess I'll just take the way many of you
> guys have become Hurwitz Beliebers

Can you name two?

dk

On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
>
> I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
> --
> Roland van Gaalen
> Amsterdam

I was wondering if anyone had any opinions about the other Skandi Brahms cycle from the Swedish Chamber Orchestra under Thomas Dausgard?

We are been shown an alternative - not necessarily a more *authentic* - way to play Brahms, especially when you toss in the piano concertos with the OAE and Sir Andras Schiff or the Royal Northern Sinfonia and the late Lars Vogt. And I prefer it, in many ways.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Thursday, 29 December 2022 at 12:28:25 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> > Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
> >
> > I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
> > --
> > Roland van Gaalen
> > Amsterdam
>
> I was wondering if anyone had any opinions about the other Skandi Brahms cycle from the Swedish Chamber Orchestra under Thomas Dausgard?
>
> We are been shown an alternative - not necessarily a more *authentic* - way to play Brahms, especially when you toss in the piano concertos with the OAE and Sir Andras Schiff or the Royal Northern Sinfonia and the late Lars Vogt. And I prefer it, in many ways.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

I am a bit curious as to whether you are in possession, being concerned about the Brahms' symphonies, of any of the older established versions, (HvK, Klemps, Glulini, Haitink, Abbados, etc.), that are universally well reviewed. For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed? Far too many artists and bands getting away with passable recordings.

One way to stop the mindless repetition of warhorse stuff, that is not up to hi performance snuff, is to ignore it. After all, unless one is an audio nut, there are enough recordings from the 60/70/80s that can compare well enough with present day recordings audio-wise.

PS: it isn't that Sir SR is bad, it is just that he doesn't compare to the greats. Also, from several reviews I have read, both Fischer's cycles appear to have not suceeded wrt Brahm's symphonies. I do have Alsop, and it is not chopped liver, In fact, it is rather quite good.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 8:58:48 PM, Ray Hall wrote:
>
> I am a bit curious as to whether you are in possession, being concerned about the Brahms' symphonies,
> of any of the older established versions, (HvK, Klemps, Glulini, Haitink, Abbados, etc.), that are universally
> well reviewed. For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult
> to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed? Far too many artists
> and bands getting away with passable recordings.

Mr. Hall, the wise and handsome, herman, and I concur that Haitink's late 1980s digital version w/ BSO on Philips is one of the best all-around cycles, including the First. I also endorse Eschenbach's 1990s cycle with Houson SO on Virgin Classics. I bought Eschenbach's Konzerthaus Orchester Berlin integrale (Berlin Classics, 2021) and was decidedly less impressed.

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 1:58:48 PM UTC+11, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 29 December 2022 at 12:28:25 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> > > Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
> > >
> > > I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
> > > --
> > > Roland van Gaalen
> > > Amsterdam
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone had any opinions about the other Skandi Brahms cycle from the Swedish Chamber Orchestra under Thomas Dausgard?
> >
> > We are been shown an alternative - not necessarily a more *authentic* - way to play Brahms, especially when you toss in the piano concertos with the OAE and Sir Andras Schiff or the Royal Northern Sinfonia and the late Lars Vogt. And I prefer it, in many ways.
> >
> > Andrew Clarke
> > Canberra
> I am a bit curious as to whether you are in possession, being concerned about the Brahms' symphonies, of any of the older established versions, (HvK, Klemps, Glulini, Haitink, Abbados, etc.), that are universally well reviewed. For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed? Far too many artists and bands getting away with passable recordings.
>
> One way to stop the mindless repetition of warhorse stuff, that is not up to hi performance snuff, is to ignore it. After all, unless one is an audio nut, there are enough recordings from the 60/70/80s that can compare well enough with present day recordings audio-wise.
>
> PS: it isn't that Sir SR is bad, it is just that he doesn't compare to the greats. Also, from several reviews I have read, both Fischer's cycles appear to have not suceeded wrt Brahm's symphonies. I do have Alsop, and it is not chopped liver, In fact, it is rather quite good.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

(a) Klemperer/Philharmonia, Madge Allsop/Royal Philharmonic, Rattle/BPO, Boehm/BPO-VSO

(b) I think you're missing the point. I'm not interested in whether the Old Brigade was better or worse than the new. What I'm saying is that this is a very different way of interpreting Brahms.

You may have a very fine performance of Messiah with Sir Malcolm Sargeant and a cast of thousands, but are you going to refuse to listen to a new recording with perhaps more appropriate resources on that basis?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 6:58:48 PM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I am a bit curious as to whether you are in possession, being concerned
> about the Brahms' symphonies, of any of the older established versions,
> (HvK, Klemps, Glulini, Haitink, Abbados, etc.), that are universally well
> reviewed.

Because the terms "established" and "universally well reviewed" mean
nothing more than inclusion in a shared belief system. Also because
every single version mentioned above has flaws to some ears.

If one insists in having a single well recorded version of the Brahms
Symphonies, my first choice would be Bernstein/VPO.

dk

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 3:58:48 AM UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
>For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed?

Because we live now.
Good current artists express the way we live now.
(And I say this as someone who likes to read Catullus and Sophocles, Dickens and Goethe.)

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:25:34 AM UTC+1, Oscar wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 8:58:48 PM, Ray Hall wrote:
> >
> > I am a bit curious as to whether you are in possession, being concerned about the Brahms' symphonies,
> > of any of the older established versions, (HvK, Klemps, Glulini, Haitink, Abbados, etc.), that are universally
> > well reviewed. For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult
> > to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed? Far too many artists
> > and bands getting away with passable recordings.
> the wise and handsome herman, and I concur that Haitink's late 1980s digital version w/ BSO on Philips is one of the best all-around cycles

I still feel that way - and this includes the 2nd PC.

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 7:50:24 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 3:58:48 AM UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> >For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed?
> Because we live now.
> Good current artists express the way we live now.
> (And I say this as someone who likes to read Catullus and Sophocles, Dickens and Goethe.)

- Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!

Catullus

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 9:43:44 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 7:50:24 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 3:58:48 AM UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> > >For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed?
> > Because we live now.
> > Good current artists express the way we live now.
> > (And I say this as someone who likes to read Catullus and Sophocles, Dickens and Goethe.)
> - Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
>
> Catullus

- The soul that sees beauty may sometimes walk alone.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 9:56:28 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 9:43:44 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 7:50:24 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 3:58:48 AM UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed?
> > > Because we live now.
> > > Good current artists express the way we live now.
> > > (And I say this as someone who likes to read Catullus and Sophocles, Dickens and Goethe.)
> > - Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
> >
> > Catullus
> - The soul that sees beauty may sometimes walk alone.
>
> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

- I will honour Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year.

Charles Dickens ("A Christmas Carol")

On Thursday, 29 December 2022 at 14:45:47 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 6:58:48 PM UTC-8, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I am a bit curious as to whether you are in possession, being concerned
> > about the Brahms' symphonies, of any of the older established versions,
> > (HvK, Klemps, Glulini, Haitink, Abbados, etc.), that are universally well
> > reviewed.
> Because the terms "established" and "universally well reviewed" mean
> nothing more than inclusion in a shared belief system. Also because
> every single version mentioned above has flaws to some ears.

Nobody has said any recording is without flaws. But if the big things such as drive, momentum, projection, style are not there, no amount of instrument clams, or conductorial small whims, are going to save it or condemn it. There seems to be a lot of people recording at the moment, music which has been done to death by a thousand cuts, and for which it seems are churned out nothing but examples of reasonably reviewed and passable mediocrity.

> If one insists in having a single well recorded version of the Brahms
> Symphonies, my first choice would be Bernstein/VPO.

I bought Lennie's Dvorak 9 this year to find out what some recent fuss was about, and found it shockingly
bad. Appalling. Even Solti couldn't have brutalised it more (even though his CSO Brahms cycle is surprisingly good). Even so, this is not to say Bernstein wasn't great in some music. Latin American, Mahler, are some examples where few got close to him.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 5:08:07 PM UTC+11, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 9:56:28 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 9:43:44 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 7:50:24 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 3:58:48 AM UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed?
> > > > Because we live now.
> > > > Good current artists express the way we live now.
> > > > (And I say this as someone who likes to read Catullus and Sophocles, Dickens and Goethe.)
> > > - Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
> > >
> > > Catullus
> > - The soul that sees beauty may sometimes walk alone.
> >
> > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
> - I will honour Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year.
>
> Charles Dickens ("A Christmas Carol")

When whippoorwills call
And evening is nigh,
I hurry to my
Blue Heaven ...

- George A. Whiting

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:43:44 AM UTC+1, gggg gggg wrote:

> - Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
>

If I had known my post would trigger this nonsense I would have thought twice...

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 12:00:34 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:43:44 AM UTC+1, wrote:
>
> > - Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
> >
> If I had known my post would trigger this nonsense I would have thought twice...

- Desine de quoquam quicquam bene velle mereri,
Aut aliquem fieri posse putare pium.

Leave off wishing to deserve any thanks from anyone, or thinking that anyone can ever become grateful.

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 12:00:34 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:43:44 AM UTC+1, gggg gggg wrote:
>
> > - Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
> >
> If I had known my post would trigger this nonsense I would have thought twice...

- Desine de quoquam quicquam bene velle mereri,
Aut aliquem fieri posse putare pium.

- Leave off wishing to deserve any thanks from anyone, or thinking that anyone can ever become grateful.

Catullus

On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 7:10:32 AM UTC-8, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
>
> Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
> I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about
> anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms
> intentionally composed it to sound like much ado
> about nothing!

Large scale orchestral works are about one thing,
and one thing only -- keeping musicians employed.

Precisely as you say, much ado about nothing.

dk

On Sunday, 25 December 2022 at 22:51:09 UTC, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 25 December 2022 at 23:48:43 UTC+11, Gerard wrote:
> > Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
> > >
> > > Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
> > >
> > That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
> True. Mackerras walks on water. I find he is OK in Janacek.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech".. I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to play and sing this music. Since a lot of it is grounded in the inflections of the Czech language which Janacek studied in such detail, they bloody well ought to "get" his music! It really makes a difference. All those rosettes for Mackerras are just a fata morgana.

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 2:18:14 PM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> All those rosettes for Mackerras are just a fata morgana.

That's the music industry rackett for you! ;-)

Happy New Year!

dk

On Friday, 30 December 2022 at 09:34:00 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 2:18:14 PM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> >
> > All those rosettes for Mackerras are just a fata morgana.
> That's the music industry rackett for you! ;-)
>
> Happy New Year!
>
> dk

I tend to agree, and would go for Czech performances every time. I therefore tend to regard Mackerras as a decent substitute, but not the real thing. As we speak I am awaiting Gregor's Makropulos Case, as I am being very completist about Janacek's operas. I have Jilek's Excursions of Mr Broucek, and an early Neumann Vixen. Something about these operas that that fits into my list of "must haves".

Ray Hall, Taree

On Friday, 30 December 2022 at 09:18:14 UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Sunday, 25 December 2022 at 22:51:09 UTC, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, 25 December 2022 at 23:48:43 UTC+11, Gerard wrote:
> > > Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
> > > >
> > > > Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
> > > >
> > > That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
> > True. Mackerras walks on water. I find he is OK in Janacek.
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree
>
> I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech". I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to play and sing this music.

I envy you.
Happy New Year to Everyone.

Ray Hall, Taree

On 12/29/22 11:34 AM, Dan Koren wrote:

> Large scale orchestral works are about one thing,
> and one thing only -- keeping musicians employed.
>
> Precisely as you say, much ado about nothing.
>
> dk

That's one of the dumbest things you've ever said in this forum.

Bob Harper

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:06:51 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 12/29/22 11:34 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> > Large scale orchestral works are about one thing,
> > and one thing only -- keeping musicians employed.
> >
> > Precisely as you say, much ado about nothing.
>
> That's one of the dumbest things you've ever said
> in this forum.

Since I specialize in saying "dumb things",
wait to see the next one! ;-)

BTW this forum as a whole is a collection
of intolerant, bigotted conservatives that
are stuck in 18th and 19th century caves
and cannot conceive of the notion that
people can hear and listen differently
from one another. Subscribing to any
shared belief systems is not only
meaningless, but also threatens
everyone else's freedom of thought
and ability to think independently.

Happy New Year!

dk

On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 11:04:12 AM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 9:48:08 AM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I often feel the same way about the symphony it followed, as
> > often remarked upon, namely the LvB 9th. A grandiose type of
> > pomposity was not considered amiss in the times these works
> > were written.
> Pomposity was the name of the game in those times in
> some countries. France and Italy suffered less from this
> disease than Germany. The latter invented seriousness.
> Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
>
> dk

The only thing I hate more than music that is pompous and bombastic is music that is performed pompously and bombastically.

Which is why I don't listen to symphonic music--all that triumphant heroism is not for me.

If Brahms had composed nothing more than his lieder I couldn't have asked for anything more.

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:18:14 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles
> better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech". I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek
> operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to play and sing this music.

Dare I say I enjoyed Fluffy II's latest recording of Janáček’s Cunning Little Vixen, c/w Sinfonietta (LSO Live, 2020). I know I know . . .

From The Gramophone:

<< Recordings of Janáček’s The Cunning Little Vixen and Sinfonietta represent major milestones in Simon Rattle’s early discography: the latter with the Philharmonia as far back as 1983, the former with the forces of the Royal Opera House in 1990 (recorded by EMI but now part of Chandos’s Opera in English series).

In a brief note accompanying this new release, the conductor explains his personal link to Janáček’s wide-eyed and wondrous operatic masterpiece. It’s the work that first made him want to conduct opera at all, and one of few pieces that reliably reduces him to tears. This recording was made when Rattle performed the work in Peter Sellars’s semi-staging – a transfer from Berlin, where it was unveiled at the Philharmonie in 2017 – at the Barbican. And in his note, Rattle also explains their decision to stick here with the original Czech, to preserve the ‘rhythms of the language’ that are so central to the music.

I wasn’t too enamoured of Sellars’s gritty, urban vision of the work when I saw it in Berlin but it seems both there and in London to have informed Rattle’s vision of the score. With pinpoint playing from the LSO and close, detailed recorded sound, this is a Vixen with sharp teeth as well as sharp ears. Instead of the inviting, dewy soundscapes conjured up by, say, Mackerras’s Vienna Philharmonic, we have something a little more threatening. It’s a performance compelling in its urgency and vividness, hiding none of the uncanny moments of the score but still breaking out into climaxes of great tenderness, sensual power and beauty – listen to the wonderful second interlude, here with irresistibly soaring strings, swelling woodwind and exultant brass.

The sense of dramatic vividness is conveyed superbly by the cast, led by Lucy Crowe’s impulsive Vixen, brimming with joie de vivre and mischief and singing with airy ease. Gerald Finley’s Forester is outstanding, too, presenting a moving mixture of wisdom and resignation – and we only have a couple of audible traces of Sellars’s concept of the role as rather unappealingly depressive.

Sophia Burgos is a vibrantly sung, ardent Fox, and the smaller roles, distributed among the rest of the cast, are all well taken, with Jan Martiník’s world-weary Parson and Hanno Müller-Brachmann’s Harašta especially fine. There are charming performances from the younger members of the cast, and the choruses are excellent, even if they sound a little rushed as the Voices of the Forest at the end of Act 2. Some evidence of the semi-staging remains in the recording but the engineering, though close, is good.

The generous coupling is every bit as compelling: a taut account of the Sinfonietta that bristles with nervous energy and exultant joy. As with the Vixen, it’s a performance that also fully articulates the work’s more unsettling side, and, while there are similarities with Rattle’s earlier account, the playing from the LSO is on a different level: superbly incisive and standing up to the close scrutiny of the recorded sound. All in all, an outstanding release, and a rewarding celebration of this wonderful composer’s art.

-Hugo Shirley >>