On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 7:32:12 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 10:53:39 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I wonder how many Brahms cycles
> > there have been since the Mackerras?
> >
> At least half a dozen too many.
>
> dk

In the Golden Age they were almost an annual event.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Sunday, 25 December 2022 at 23:48:43 UTC+11, Gerard wrote:
> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
> >
> > Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
> >
> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)

True. Mackerras walks on water. I find he is OK in Janacek.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:39:16 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 7:32:12 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 10:53:39 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > I wonder how many Brahms cycles
> > > there have been since the Mackerras?
> > >
> > At least half a dozen too many.
>
> In the Golden Age they were
> almost an annual event.

One person's golden age
can be another person's
dark age.

dk

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 2:51:09 PM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 25 December 2022 at 23:48:43 UTC+11, Gerard wrote:
> > Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
> > >
> > > Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce
> > > opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
> >
> > That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
>
> True. Mackerras walks on water. I
> find he is OK in Janacek.

But can he walk on burning gasoline?
I ask the question .....

dk

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 7:02:14 AM UTC+11, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <e291301c-57d8-46c3...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew Clarke <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I wonder how many Brahms cycles there have been since the Mackerras?
> Wouldn't want to speculate... I might not even have the order of
> magnitude correct! Among them though, I've long favored Gardiner.

Me too. I haven't heard the Budapest Festival Orchestra / Ivan Fischer cycle yet, except for the Third.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 1:05:46 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 2:51:09 PM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, 25 December 2022 at 23:48:43 UTC+11, Gerard wrote:
> > > Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
> > > >
> > > > Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce
> > > > opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
> > >
> > > That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
> >
> > True. Mackerras walks on water. I
> > find he is OK in Janacek.
> But can he walk on burning gasoline?
> I ask the question .....
>
> dk

He conducted quite a few Don Giovannis, so I suppose he came close to it.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 8:32:09 AM UTC+11, Notsure01 wrote:

> The Brahms of the first Serenade is greatly to be preferred.
>

Of this work, Riccardo Chailly memorably remarked that it never seems to get going and once it does get going, it never seems to stop ... Hence his rather striking choice of tempi when he recorded it, with the first movement going like a bat out of hell. Another Dave recommendation [!] which I treasure ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 7:23:15 AM UTC+11, Notsure01 wrote:
> On 12/25/22 1:53 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >
> > I wonder how many Brahms cycles there have been since the Mackerras?
> >
> > Andrew Clarke
> > Canberra
> I really enjoyed Honeck's recent 4th with Pittsburgh and am hoping he
> does a complete cycle.
>
> While googling to see if I missed any newer release, I found this statement:
>
> "Marek Janowski, recorded a first-rate Brahms cycle of very different
> character not too long ago for PentaTone"
>
> This is from, FWIW, a rave review by Hurwitz of the Honeck 4th:
> https://www.classicstoday.com/review/honeck-and-pittsburgh-shine-in-brahms-fourth/
>
> I also found an extremely interesting additional review of this 4th:
>
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Nov/Brahms-sy4-FR744.htm
>
> There have been numerous mentions here about "dancing about
> architecture" - and a lot of "Apache Dancing" at RMCR - but this review
> manages to explain really clearly what is so distinctive about the
> Honeck performance...

I am currently working my way through the Danish Chamber Orchestra / Adam Fischer cycle on Naxos, which I think would interest you. Textures are clear, woodwinds sing, and tempi, on the whole, quickish. No BWB here. And it's going cheap at Presto Classical:

< https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9362333--johannes-brahms-complete-symphonies >

Incidentally that big schmuck Mahler not only nearly wrote "You Are My Sunshine" and "You Gotta Have Heart" but missed out on a fortune by nearly writing "Manha De Carnaval", the theme from "Black Orpheus", not just one but twice, in the Third and Fourth symphonies:

< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEYCc8vZtNE&t=46s >

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:

> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
>> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
>>>
>>> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
>>>
>> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
>> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
>>
> Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
> I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
> He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.

The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
a claim I hope you have evidence for it. (As opposed to his opinions
about orchestras or conductors, which are of course fair game.)
--
Al Eisner

On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
> >> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
> >>>
> >>> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
> >>>
> >> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
> >> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
> >> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
> >>
> > Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
> > I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
> > He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.

The evidence is on camera.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
> >
> > > On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
> > >> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
> > >>>
> > >>> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
> > >>>
> > >> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
> > >> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
> > >> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
> > >>
> > > Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
> > > I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
> > > He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
> > The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
> > a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
> The evidence is on camera.

Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.

Op 2022-12-27 om 13:00 schreef Herman:
> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
>>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
>>>>> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
>>>>>>
>>>>> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
>>>>> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
>>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
>>>>>
>>>> Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
>>>> I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
>>>> He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
>>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
>>> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
>> The evidence is on camera.
>
> Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
> Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.

Recently he got into some trouble when jubilating in a video about
Gardner's recording of Brahms symphonies 1 and 3, and someone pointed
at his review on ClassicsToday - "Gardner’s Unnecessary Brahms" with a 6
for artistic quality.
That review was a fake one, Hurwitz replied; it has been removed now.
His enthusiasm in his videos can be very inexplicable. His disapproval too.

On 12/27/2022 7:00 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
>>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
>>>>> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
>>>>>>
>>>>> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
>>>>> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
>>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
>>>>>
>>>> Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
>>>> I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
>>>> He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
>>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
>>> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
>> The evidence is on camera.
>
> Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
> Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a >serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.

A. If he is familiar with the recordings, I really don't see the problem if he hasn't listened to them recently.
B. Every written review contains the contents of a CD. His listing the contents corresponds to that.
C. To say that all he does his read contents and flap his arms is ludicrous.

The only substance to your comments is that he gets animated and flaps his harms. If that bothers some people, so be it.

On 12/27/2022 7:23 AM, Gerard wrote:
> Op 2022-12-27 om 13:00 schreef Herman:
>> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
>>>>>> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
>>>>>> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
>>>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
>>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
>>>>> I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
>>>>> He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
>>>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
>>>> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
>>> The evidence is on camera.
>>
>> Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying something like, "that's a good one"  -  he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
>> Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.
>
> Recently he got into some trouble when jubilating in a video about Gardner's recording of  Brahms symphonies 1 and 3, and someone pointed at his review on ClassicsToday - "Gardner’s Unnecessary Brahms" with a 6 for artistic quality.
> That review was a fake one, Hurwitz replied; it has been removed now.
> His enthusiasm in his videos can be very inexplicable. His disapproval too.
>

So can the visceral response of some to his antics.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:06:01 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 12/27/2022 7:00 AM, Herman wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
> >>>>> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
> >>>>> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
> >>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
> >>>>>
> >>>> Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
> >>>> I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
> >>>> He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
> >>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
> >>> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
> >> The evidence is on camera.
> >
> > Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
> > Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a >serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.
> A. If he is familiar with the recordings, I really don't see the problem if he hasn't listened to them recently.

well, that's great. I do however see a problem. I'm always doubtful of people who claim to know exactly what they heard twenty, thirty or more years ago, and who are sure they would feel exactly the same way.
Also, as a music reviewer one weighs a recording / performance against the competition on the market. And the thing is, when you're talking about reissues, the competition has changed entirely, and the whole weighing process should be reconsidered.

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 3:06:55 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:06:01 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 12/27/2022 7:00 AM, Herman wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
> > >>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
> > >>>>> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
> > >>>>> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
> > >>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
> > >>>> I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
> > >>>> He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
> > >>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
> > >>> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
> > >> The evidence is on camera.
> > >
> > > Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
> > > Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a >serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.
> > A. If he is familiar with the recordings, I really don't see the problem if he hasn't listened to them recently.
> well, that's great. I do however see a problem. I'm always doubtful of people who claim to know exactly what they heard twenty, thirty or more years ago, and who are sure they would feel exactly the same way.
> Also, as a music reviewer one weighs a recording / performance against the competition on the market. And the thing is, when you're talking about reissues, the competition has changed entirely, and the whole weighing process should be reconsidered.

There are three Daves:

(a) Dave the Musicologist, who has looked into 18th century performance practice and found that orchestras played with more vibrato than the HIPpies will allow,
(b) Dave the Critic, who can be sensitive, articulate and well-informed
(d) Dave the Influencer. Waves arms. Wears scarves. Abuses conductors, soloists and orchestras who disbelieve in (a) above, plus Sir Simon Rattle. Gets lots of hugely enthusiastic comments from people who enjoy that kind of thing ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 9:25:26 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 3:06:55 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:06:01 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> > > On 12/27/2022 7:00 AM, Herman wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> > > >> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
> > > >>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
> > > >>>>> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
> > > >>>>> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
> > > >>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
> > > >>>> I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
> > > >>>> He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
> > > >>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
> > > >>> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
> > > >> The evidence is on camera.
> > > >
> > > > Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
> > > > Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a >serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.
> > > A. If he is familiar with the recordings, I really don't see the problem if he hasn't listened to them recently.
> > well, that's great. I do however see a problem. I'm always doubtful of people who claim to know exactly what they heard twenty, thirty or more years ago, and who are sure they would feel exactly the same way.
> > Also, as a music reviewer one weighs a recording / performance against the competition on the market. And the thing is, when you're talking about reissues, the competition has changed entirely, and the whole weighing process should be reconsidered.
> There are three Daves:
>
> (a) Dave the Musicologist, who has looked into 18th century performance practice and found that orchestras played with more vibrato than the HIPpies will allow,
> (b) Dave the Critic, who can be sensitive, articulate and well-informed
> (d) Dave the Influencer. Waves arms. Wears scarves. Abuses conductors, soloists and orchestras who disbelieve in (a) above, plus Sir Simon Rattle. Gets lots of hugely enthusiastic comments from people who enjoy that kind of thing ...
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

Concerning his 'shocking revelation', it made me nauseous.

In fact, I may have been traumatized.

For life.

He is noooooooooooooooooooooo James Bond.

But then again, neither was Sean:

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/707389/Sean-Connery-James-Bond-007-bags-of-ice-chest-love-scenes-Daniel-Craig

On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 10:21:11 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 9:25:26 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 3:06:55 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:06:01 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> > > > On 12/27/2022 7:00 AM, Herman wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> > > > >> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
> > > > >>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
> > > > >>>>> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
> > > > >>>>> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
> > > > >>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>> Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
> > > > >>>> I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
> > > > >>>> He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
> > > > >>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
> > > > >>> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
> > > > >> The evidence is on camera.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
> > > > > Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a >serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.
> > > > A. If he is familiar with the recordings, I really don't see the problem if he hasn't listened to them recently.
> > > well, that's great. I do however see a problem. I'm always doubtful of people who claim to know exactly what they heard twenty, thirty or more years ago, and who are sure they would feel exactly the same way.
> > > Also, as a music reviewer one weighs a recording / performance against the competition on the market. And the thing is, when you're talking about reissues, the competition has changed entirely, and the whole weighing process should be reconsidered.
> > There are three Daves:
> >
> > (a) Dave the Musicologist, who has looked into 18th century performance practice and found that orchestras played with more vibrato than the HIPpies will allow,
> > (b) Dave the Critic, who can be sensitive, articulate and well-informed
> > (d) Dave the Influencer. Waves arms. Wears scarves. Abuses conductors, soloists and orchestras who disbelieve in (a) above, plus Sir Simon Rattle. Gets lots of hugely enthusiastic comments from people who enjoy that kind of thing ...
> >
> > Andrew Clarke
> > Canberra
> Concerning his 'shocking revelation', it made me nauseous.
>
> In fact, I may have been traumatized.
>
> For life.
>
> He is noooooooooooooooooooooo James Bond.
>
> But then again, neither was Sean:
>
> https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/707389/Sean-Connery-James-Bond-007-bags-of-ice-chest-love-scenes-Daniel-Craig

Can you believe it?

On Mon, 26 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:

> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
>>>> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
>>>>>
>>>>> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
>>>>>
>>>> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
>>>> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
>>>>
>>> Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
>>> I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
>>> He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
>> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
>
> The evidence is on camera.

Come on, Herman - you don't really want to sound like Donald Trump
claiming a stolen election, do you? :)
--
Al Eisner

On Tue, 27 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:

> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
>>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
>>>>> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
>>>>>>
>>>>> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
>>>>> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
>>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
>>>>>
>>>> Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
>>>> I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
>>>> He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
>>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
>>> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
>> The evidence is on camera.
>
> Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.

You are confusing "video" with "review". Some of his videos are reviews,
some are comparative assessments, some are actual musical discussions, and
so on. And yes, some are summaries of the contents of large (sometimes
enormous) boxes. The latter are sometimes not very interesting, but what
else could he do with them? He claims to have a good memory, and I take
him at his word. It is entirely unreasonable to expect him to relisten
to all of them, especially given the number and variety of all his
videos. (And he has mentioned that in some cases, such as a Barbirolli
box, he did relisten, which took him many months). Better that he listens
to the actually-new stuff. So when you say "Those I have seen", it seems
like you have made an odd choice. But you would no doubt be dissatisfied
with whatever seletion of his videos you chose to watch, and that is
entirely your prerogative.

To be briefer: I largely agree with Frank's reply.

> Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.

It is indeed a serious charge; it implies a lack of integrity. Your
qualification of it in the above is an improvement. (I'm neither
bothered nor impressed by the "arm-flapping", but really, for the most
part, the content of these videos is the the audio.)
--
Al Eisner

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 10:08:08 AM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
> >>>>> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
> >>>>> AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
> >>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
> >>>>>
> >>>> Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
> >>>> I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
> >>>> He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
> >>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
> >>> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
> >> The evidence is on camera.
> >
> > Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
> You are confusing "video" with "review". Some of his videos are reviews,
> some are comparative assessments, some are actual musical discussions, and
> so on. And yes, some are summaries of the contents of large (sometimes
> enormous) boxes. The latter are sometimes not very interesting, but what
> else could he do with them? He claims to have a good memory, and I take
> him at his word. It is entirely unreasonable to expect him to relisten
> to all of them, especially given the number and variety of all his
> videos. (And he has mentioned that in some cases, such as a Barbirolli
> box, he did relisten, which took him many months). Better that he listens
> to the actually-new stuff. So when you say "Those I have seen", it seems
> like you have made an odd choice. But you would no doubt be dissatisfied
> with whatever seletion of his videos you chose to watch, and that is
> entirely your prerogative.
>
> To be briefer: I largely agree with Frank's reply.
> > Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.
> It is indeed a serious charge; it implies a lack of integrity. Your
> qualification of it in the above is an improvement. (I'm neither
> bothered nor impressed by the "arm-flapping", but really, for the most
> part, the content of these videos is the the audio.)
> --
> Al Eisner

Al, we did many years ago have a very great guru on this very newsgroup who freely admitted to writing damning reviews of recordings that he hadn't heard. I was the only member of this group who posted that this was unethical, and he didn't half get on his high horse about it. The man was absolutely shameless. But allow me, on further reflection, to add two more Daves:

(e) Dave the Self-Parodist. There seems to be no middle ground in opinion on this one. I don't mind it at all: my wife can't stand it, and to many in Europe (including the UK) he might come across as the typical opinionated Yank with a big tummy telling the rest of the world what to do.

(f) Dave the Reactionary. There must be a whole lot of people out there who think that the epitome of Brahms performance was achieved by the Big Five + the Berlin Philharmonic ca. 1968. The sound of Dave endlessly dissing these awful new recordings by people like Sir Roger Norrington or the Fischer Brothers (Adam, Ivan and Jeremy) must come as music to their ears. And when you think that the wonderful, so-soulful HvK was eventually replaced by that awful Sir Simon Rattle, well, worlds simply fail them. It's a conspiracy.. It must be the British Critics, whose journals are stuffed from cover to cover with glowing reviews of Sir Simon's latest disaster, as Dave is always telling us, who are stabbing the music industry in the back. (I have to say, that I simply do not believe that the British Critics all agree with one another, nor that they spend 120% of their time boosting terrible recordings by hopeless British musicians as we are so often told, but it is useless to point this out, as nobody is listening out there. I often think it must be part of the American Oath of Allegiance, right after the bit about I Honor the Flag.) Ultimately this is self-defeating: I very often buy the recordings that are damned at great length by D the R, and, with one possible exception, I have always enjoyed them immensely, Jeremy Fischer and the Strudel Chamber Orchestra's Brahms being very much a case in point.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 12:08:08 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
>
> It is indeed a serious charge; it implies a lack of integrity.

Seriously? Why do you think he's making all these videos, which are mostly bordering on a comedic routine? Do you think he's making a living by entertaining a tiny audience, trying to make them watch as many google minutes as possible, or do you think he's seriously trying to further the truth?

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 2:14:34 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 12:08:08 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
> >
> > It is indeed a serious charge; it implies a lack of integrity.
> Seriously? Why do you think he's making all these videos, which are mostly bordering on a comedic routine? Do you think he's making a living by entertaining a tiny audience, trying to make them watch as many google minutes as possible, or do you think he's seriously trying to further the truth?

I guess I'll just take the way many of you guys have become Hurwitz Beliebers as yet another post-covid internet cult, just like ever so many teenagers have substituted an online fantasy world for real life during the lockdowns, and they never came back. This is the Old Geezer Fighting Loneliness variant.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:20:36 PM, herman wrote:
>
> I guess I'll just take the way many of you guys have become Hurwitz Beliebers <snip>

I was on the Bieber tour this year, from Feb. till June. Fun time. Saw orchestras in Pittsburgh, S.F., Dallas, N.Y. (the renovated Geffen), and Met Orch at Carnegie w/ YNZ. Watched plenty of Herky YouTubes on the bus. Good way to pass time, as well as r.m.c.r. I can't read books on the bus.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 8:58:55 PM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
>
> I can't read books on the bus.

There is no evidence you
can read books anywhere.

dk