My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
--
pyotr filipivich
"Have the Anarchists ever stopped to consider that if they bring
down the American Government, there will be no one to protect
them from the rednecks?"

On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
> "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.

And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.

So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?

John Savard

In article <c7jlfg53gvstpp4t4s3is2igrm6ts34leb@4ax.com>,
pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.

Not to my knowledge. Back when it was printed (nearly fifty
years ago) I got out a large sheet of paper and filled in the
roundaround board of the firststuffs. (This was before we had
children!) Unfortunately, it got lost sometime when we were
moving house, and I don't think I could reconstruct it now.

I invented the names that Poul hadn't supplied by using his own
technique: translate them out of Latin or Greek into English,
trim to fit.

I forget what I used for the four elements named after the little
Swedish island Ytterby.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <e6a66683-9657-470c-b43a-2a86011dc943n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>> "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
>
>And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.

I believe so. See my previous post about the roundaround board
of the firststuffs.
>
>So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?

Not to my knowledge. He would, if I remember correctly, use the
same technique (translate any Latin- or Greek-derived word into
English or Danish or Old Norse) from time to time in other
stories.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 9:10:03 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> I forget what I used for the four elements named after the little
> Swedish island Ytterby.

I remember Isaac Asimov commenting on the unfairness of it
all...

Ytterbium, Yttrium, Terbium and Erbium, of course.

John Savard

On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 09:05:49 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 9:10:03 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> I forget what I used for the four elements named after the little
>> Swedish island Ytterby.
>
>I remember Isaac Asimov commenting on the unfairness of it
>all...
>
>Ytterbium, Yttrium, Terbium and Erbium, of course.

Those are Latin suffixes, which are not allowed under the rules of the
Uncleftish Beholding game.

On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 10:20:23 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> Those are Latin suffixes, which are not allowed under the rules of the
> Uncleftish Beholding game.

I just idenfied which elements she spoke of. Not what they would have
been on the roundaround board of the firststuffs.

Ytterbystuff, Yttrstuff, Terstuff, and Erstuff, perhaps? Since there's not
much one can do with that proper name.

John Savard

In article <3bb40855-2e2a-47ee-bf01-868128d1efd8n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 9:10:03 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> I forget what I used for the four elements named after the little
>> Swedish island Ytterby.
>
>I remember Isaac Asimov commenting on the unfairness of it
>all...
>
>Ytterbium, Yttrium, Terbium and Erbium, of course.

Yes, I know the names used in our reality. What I can't remember
is the names I invented for the roundaround board.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
> > "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
>
> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?

OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated to contemporary English for publication.

--
-Jack

In article <b776a689-f1e2-4a9a-b828-2a69e7e049dan@googlegroups.com>,
Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:
>Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> > My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>> > "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
>> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
>>
>> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
>
>OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
>franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
>to contemporary English for publication.

Correct. So far as I know, "Uncleftish Beholding" was a one-off.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> on Sat, 24 Jul 2021 05:22:32 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> > My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>> > "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
>> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
>>
>> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
>
>OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated to contemporary English for publication.

Okay.

What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

On 28/07/2021 16.11, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> on Sat, 24 Jul 2021 05:22:32 -0700
> (PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>> Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>> My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>>>> "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
>>> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
>>>
>>> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
>>
>> OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated to contemporary English for publication.
>
> Okay.
>
> What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
> such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
> Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
> to have called it "Anglish") and published them.

Did he actually show any Anglic? I thought that it was all "translated"
to English, kind of like Shire-speech.

--
Michael F. Stemper
No animals were harmed in the composition of this message.

In article <kvg3ggtmgi0q1b9d0utt359kbf2rpdsfib@4ax.com>,
pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> on Sat, 24 Jul 2021 05:22:32 -0700
>(PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>> > My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>>> > "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
>>> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
>>>
>>> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
>>
>>OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
>franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
>to contemporary English for publication.
>
> Okay.
>
> What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
>such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
>Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
>to have called it "Anglish") and published them.

No, to the best of my knowledge it was a one-off. I forget where it
was first published, but it then appeared in a NESFA collection,
whereof I have a copy.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <sdskt6$d2n$1@dont-email.me>,
Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 28/07/2021 16.11, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> on Sat, 24 Jul 2021 05:22:32 -0700
>> (PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>> Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>>> My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>>>>> "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
>>>> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
>>>>
>>>> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
>>>
>>> OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
>franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
>to contemporary English for publication.
>>
>> Okay.
>>
>> What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
>> such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
>> Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
>> to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
>
>Did he actually show any Anglic? I thought that it was all "translated"
>to English, kind of like Shire-speech.

No, he translated all the names of the elements (mostly Latin or
Greek roots) into English roots. Hydrogen is waterstuff, helium
is sunstuff, and so on. Uranium is, IIRC, ymirstuff.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:51:00 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>In article <kvg3ggtmgi0q1b9d0utt359kbf2rpdsfib@4ax.com>,
>pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> on Sat, 24 Jul 2021 05:22:32 -0700
>>(PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>>Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>> > My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>>>> > "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
>>>> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
>>>>
>>>> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
>>>
>>>OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
>>franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
>>to contemporary English for publication.
>>
>> Okay.
>>
>> What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
>>such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
>>Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
>>to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
>
>No, to the best of my knowledge it was a one-off. I forget where it
>was first published, but it then appeared in a NESFA collection,
>whereof I have a copy.

I first read it in one of the magazines--likely Analog, possibly
Galaxy, pretty sure it wasn't Omni, and those are the only ones I used
to read.

In article <rp04ggl922qkqa2u4ikl6q7btgsb488ngc@4ax.com>,
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:51:00 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <kvg3ggtmgi0q1b9d0utt359kbf2rpdsfib@4ax.com>,
>>pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> on Sat, 24 Jul 2021 05:22:32 -0700
>>>(PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>>>Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>>> > My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>>>>> > "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
>>>>> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
>>>>>
>>>>> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
>>>>
>>>>OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
>>>franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
>>>to contemporary English for publication.
>>>
>>> Okay.
>>>
>>> What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
>>>such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
>>>Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
>>>to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
>>
>>No, to the best of my knowledge it was a one-off. I forget where it
>>was first published, but it then appeared in a NESFA collection,
>>whereof I have a copy.
>
>I first read it in one of the magazines--likely Analog, possibly
>Galaxy, pretty sure it wasn't Omni, and those are the only ones I used
>to read.

http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?56986
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

In article <rp04ggl922qkqa2u4ikl6q7btgsb488ngc@4ax.com>,
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:51:00 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <kvg3ggtmgi0q1b9d0utt359kbf2rpdsfib@4ax.com>,
>>pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> on Sat, 24 Jul 2021 05:22:32 -0700
>>>(PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>>>Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>>> > My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>>>>> > "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
>>>>> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
>>>>>
>>>>> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
>>>>
>>>>OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
>>>franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
>>>to contemporary English for publication.
>>>
>>> Okay.
>>>
>>> What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
>>>such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
>>>Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
>>>to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
>>
>>No, to the best of my knowledge it was a one-off. I forget where it
>>was first published, but it then appeared in a NESFA collection,
>>whereof I have a copy.
>
>I first read it in one of the magazines--likely Analog, possibly
>Galaxy, pretty sure it wasn't Omni, and those are the only ones I used
>to read.

ISFDB having let me down, I append a link to the Wikipedia
article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncleftish_Beholding

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <qwzKw6.1LE9@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <rp04ggl922qkqa2u4ikl6q7btgsb488ngc@4ax.com>,
>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:51:00 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <kvg3ggtmgi0q1b9d0utt359kbf2rpdsfib@4ax.com>,
>>>pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> on Sat, 24 Jul 2021 05:22:32 -0700
>>>>(PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>>>>Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>>>> > My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>>>>>> > "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
>>>>>> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
>>>>>
>>>>>OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
>>>>franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
>>>>to contemporary English for publication.
>>>>
>>>> Okay.
>>>>
>>>> What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
>>>>such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
>>>>Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
>>>>to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
>>>
>>>No, to the best of my knowledge it was a one-off. I forget where it
>>>was first published, but it then appeared in a NESFA collection,
>>>whereof I have a copy.
>>
>>I first read it in one of the magazines--likely Analog, possibly
>>Galaxy, pretty sure it wasn't Omni, and those are the only ones I used
>>to read.
>
>ISFDB having let me down, I append a link to the Wikipedia
>article.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncleftish_Beholding
>

It's certainly listed, albeit not under fiction.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> on Sat, 24 Jul 2021 05:22:32 -0700
> (PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> >Quadibloc wrote:
> >> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> >> > My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
> >> > "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
> >> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
> >>
> >> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
> >
> >OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated to contemporary English for publication.
> Okay.
>
> What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
> such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
> Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
> to have called it "Anglish") and published them.

No, no, my mistake. "Anglish" is a good term. It's only problem is that is was similar to "Anglic" which Anderson used for a background universal language. If anything, it adds to my list of things to do with a time machine: suggest Anderson use some other term (Standard, Interlac, Basic) for that language to save Anglish for his eventual "Uncleftish Beholding."

--
-Jack

"Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> on Wed, 28 Jul 2021
17:15:02 -0500 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>On 28/07/2021 16.11, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> on Sat, 24 Jul 2021 05:22:32 -0700
>> (PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>> Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>>> My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>>>>> "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
>>>> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
>>>>
>>>> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
>>>
>>> OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated to contemporary English for publication.
>>
>> Okay.
>>
>> What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
>> such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
>> Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
>> to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
>
>Did he actually show any Anglic? I thought that it was all "translated"
>to English, kind of like Shire-speech.

My understanding is that Anderson applied the rules of linguistic
change to Anglo-Saxon (aka Old English) and left out the influence of
Norman French. The result is a language with fewer words from
"Romance" (Latin based) languages and retaining the grammatical
inflections of Old English. Much like modern German, Dutch, usw which
has 'different' articles ('the', 'a') depending on Gender and Case.
(that whole Der, Die, Das, Ein, Eine, Ein thing. e.g.:
The fish. Der Fisch.
A fish Ein Fisch.
One fish, two fishes. Ein Fisch, zwei Fische.
Red fish, blue fish. Roter Fisch, blauer Fisch.
Red fishes, blue fishes. Rote Fische, blaue Fische.
My fish, your fish. Mein Fisch, dein Fisch.
The bowl of my fish. Die Schale mit meinem Fisch.
The cats ate the fish. Die Katzen haben die Fische gefressen.
A cat ate my fish Eine Katze hat meinen Fisch gefressen.
Your cats ate my fishes. Deine Katzen haben meine Fische gefressen.
etc. usw.)

So, without the influence of the Frenchified Norse from 1066
onwards, you could have an "Anglic" which _might_ have retained more
of the Saxon grammar, complete with grammatical inflections,
pre-fixes, suffixes, different articles, und so weiter.

I realize that in novels (or the Moving Pictures), it really
doesn't matter what language the characters are speaking, for the
reader / audience to understand the dialogue it must be 'translated'
into the contemporary target language, I.e., English. I started
working on a conlang where the "genders" are animal, plant, or stone.
Plus "infixes" - 'to (adverb) verb'. After I retire (aging) I shall
resume. Maybe. But any dialogue in a story will have to be
"translated" into English for my reader.

Meanwhile, The Wife wants to work out where English might go as it
transitions more to being an Isolating language, as well as a couple
variants for use by trolls, elves and a third group. Also "Someday".

--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:51:00 GMT
typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>In article <kvg3ggtmgi0q1b9d0utt359kbf2rpdsfib@4ax.com>,
>pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> on Sat, 24 Jul 2021 05:22:32 -0700
>>(PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>>Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>> > My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>>>> > "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
>>>> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
>>>>
>>>> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
>>>
>>>OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
>>franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
>>to contemporary English for publication.
>>
>> Okay.
>>
>> What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
>>such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
>>Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
>>to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
>
>No, to the best of my knowledge it was a one-off. I forget where it
>was first published, but it then appeared in a NESFA collection,
>whereof I have a copy.

I've a copy of _Uncleftish Beholding_ myself. Beyond that, "Ich
weisse nichts."
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:55:46 AM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:

[snip]

> So, without the influence of the Frenchified Norse from 1066
> onwards, you could have an "Anglic" which _might_ have retained more
> of the Saxon grammar, complete with grammatical inflections,
> pre-fixes, suffixes, different articles, und so weiter.
>

I seem to remember off-hand references to Anglic in Star
Trek (TOS) and a little googoling shows that term was used
in some of the novels. "Vulcan's Forge" is one. One wonders
if a "harrumph' from Harrison or his agent may have resulted
in that going down the memory (alpha) hole?

--
Kevin R

In article <g7d5gglj2rc7uhfa66fbd4osskopjmatts@4ax.com>,
pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>"Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> on Wed, 28 Jul 2021
>17:15:02 -0500 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>
> My understanding is that Anderson applied the rules of linguistic
>change to Anglo-Saxon (aka Old English) and left out the influence of
>Norman French.

But left in some of the traces of Norman Danish. "Ymirstuff," e.g.

The Danes started moving in in, when was it, the ninth century?
and after coming in and raiding and going away again, they started
settling down.

In Robert MacNeil's _The Story of English, T. A. Shippey points
out that many of the roots in OE and ON were very similar, but
their inflectional endings were different. So Saxons and Danes
living near each other started talking with naked stems, which is
why English has so few inflectional endings today.

> So, without the influence of the Frenchified Norse from 1066
>onwards, you could have an "Anglic" which _might_ have retained more
>of the Saxon grammar, complete with grammatical inflections,
>pre-fixes, suffixes, different articles, und so weiter.
>
> I realize that in novels (or the Moving Pictures), it really
>doesn't matter what language the characters are speaking, for the
>reader / audience to understand the dialogue it must be 'translated'
>into the contemporary target language, I.e., English. I started
>working on a conlang where the "genders" are animal, plant, or stone.

Cool!

>Plus "infixes" - 'to (adverb) verb'.

Also cool. Back in the sixties, when I invented a small Vulcan
conlang, I included evidentials, obligatory morphemes that
specify where the speaker go his information (saw it, heard it,
heard tell of it, heard an old tale about it, dreamed it).

After I retire (aging) I shall
>resume. Maybe. But any dialogue in a story will have to be
>"translated" into English for my reader.
>
Of course. Good luck to your endeavors.

> Meanwhile, The Wife wants to work out where English might go as it
>transitions more to being an Isolating language, as well as a couple
>variants for use by trolls, elves and a third group. Also "Someday".

I'm sitting on a rough draft of a fantasy in which the elves
speak a language full of sibilants, so that my protagonist (whose
first language is Frankish) thinks it sounds like a snake taught
to speak like an owl. :) But I didn't endeavor to make up any
of it except a few proper names.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <5a55d8ac-606a-49e5-9bb8-fa71fa790650n@googlegroups.com>,
Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:
>pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> on Sat, 24 Jul 2021 05:22:32 -0700
>> (PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>> >Quadibloc wrote:
>> >> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> >> > My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
>> >> > "Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
>> >> And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
>> >>
>> >> So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
>> >
>> >OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
>franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
>to contemporary English for publication.
>> Okay.
>>
>> What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
>> such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
>> Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
>> to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
>
>No, no, my mistake. "Anglish" is a good term. It's only problem is
>that is was similar to "Anglic" which Anderson used for a background
>universal language. If anything, it adds to my list of things to do
>with a time machine: suggest Anderson use some other term (Standard,
>Interlac, Basic) for that language to save Anglish for his eventual
>"Uncleftish Beholding."
>
I knew Poul Anderson well. One of his salient characteristics
was modesty. He would not have thought anyone would be so
detail-oriented (read, nit-picky) to go over his invented
vocabulary choices and ask why this one didn't mesh with that
one.

When someone pointed out something in any of his stories that
didn't mesh with known physics, he would shrug and say, "Y'know,
the name is Anderson, not God."

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Thursday, 29 July 2021 at 17:06:57 UTC+1, Kevrob wrote:
> On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:55:46 AM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>
> [snip]
> > So, without the influence of the Frenchified Norse from 1066
> > onwards, you could have an "Anglic" which _might_ have retained more
> > of the Saxon grammar, complete with grammatical inflections,
> > pre-fixes, suffixes, different articles, und so weiter.
> >
> I seem to remember off-hand references to Anglic in Star
> Trek (TOS) and a little googoling shows that term was used
> in some of the novels. "Vulcan's Forge" is one. One wonders
> if a "harrumph' from Harrison or his agent may have resulted
> in that going down the memory (alpha) hole?

<https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Federation_Standard>
apparently is... the "Federation Standard" language
in _Star Trek_, but there are half a dozen other words
for it. It may be essentially English, but since French is
reported as no longer used in the twenty-fourth century,
it is not "comme il faut" to say so.

The name "Anglish" is mentioned so maybe "Anglic"
is the adjective.

In James White's "Sector General" setting, speech
translators are used, and a written language called
"Universal" exists alongside single-species languages.
I think the symbols in which it is written can vary,
depending on the sensory preference of a reader,
but an edition in, say, scent patterns would be
different from print or Braille. But would it have to
be... In one story when the translator is broken, they
resort to inter-species communication by doctors'
handwriting.