On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 22:08:24 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 1:40:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <2rdtgg1kf3jva45gk...@4ax.com>,
>> Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 16:01:46 -0400, J. Clarke
>> ><jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 12:27:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
>> >><ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> on Thu, 5 Aug 2021 21:49:32 -0700 (PDT)
>> >>>typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
>> >>>>> >book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
>> >>>>> >Fellowship."
>> >>>>> Danke.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the Angle, Saxons &
>> >>>>Jutes have called a chronicle?
>> >>>
>> >>> Saga?
>> >>
>> >>Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed up and
>> >>introduced them to the concept?
>> >
>> ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle> states that
>> >
>> >The original manuscript of the Chronicle was created late in the 9th
>> >century, probably in Wessex, during the reign of Alfred the Great (r.
>> >871–899). Multiple copies were made of that one original and then
>> >distributed to monasteries across England, where they were
>> >independently updated. In one case, the Chronicle was still being
>> >actively updated in 1154.
>> >
>> >which was long after the Romans had come and gone.
>> >
>> >Perhaps, even at that time, "Chronicle" was a loan-word.
>> That, I can't say. Wish I could.
>>
>> But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
>> England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
>
>Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
>There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.

Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with Caesar?
>
>Pt

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> on Sat, 7 Aug 2021 22:08:24
-0700 (PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>
>> >>Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed up and
>> >>introduced them to the concept?
>> >
>> ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle> states that
>> >
>> >The original manuscript of the Chronicle was created late in the 9th
>> >century, probably in Wessex, during the reign of Alfred the Great (r.
>> >871–899). Multiple copies were made of that one original and then
>> >distributed to monasteries across England, where they were
>> >independently updated. In one case, the Chronicle was still being
>> >actively updated in 1154.
>> >
>> >which was long after the Romans had come and gone.
>> >
>> >Perhaps, even at that time, "Chronicle" was a loan-word.
>> That, I can't say. Wish I could.
>>
>> But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
>> England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
>
>Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
>There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
>
>Pt

Holy Well is where Joseph of Aramathia landed (supposedly on one
of his tin purchasing trips).
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 1:18:01 PM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> on Sat, 7 Aug 2021 22:08:24
> -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> >
> >> >>Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed up and
> >> >>introduced them to the concept?
> >> >
> >> ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle> states that
> >> >
> >> >The original manuscript of the Chronicle was created late in the 9th
> >> >century, probably in Wessex, during the reign of Alfred the Great (r.
> >> >871–899). Multiple copies were made of that one original and then
> >> >distributed to monasteries across England, where they were
> >> >independently updated. In one case, the Chronicle was still being
> >> >actively updated in 1154.
> >> >
> >> >which was long after the Romans had come and gone.
> >> >
> >> >Perhaps, even at that time, "Chronicle" was a loan-word.
> >> That, I can't say. Wish I could.
> >>
> >> But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
> >> England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
> >
> >Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
> >There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
> >
> >Pt
> Holy Well is where Joseph of Aramathia landed (supposedly on one
> of his tin purchasing trips).

You're thinking of Chalice Well, in Glastonbury. I spent several years at
a nearby boarding school.

There's a lot of legends in the area. In one, Joseph is said to have brought the boy Jesus to Britain with him. This is referenced in the hymn 'Jerusalem'. After the crucifixion, Joseph is supposed to have returned with the Holy Grail. There he supposedly built the first Christian church in Britain.

For proof of Christianity in Roman Britain, the 3rd mosaic in this article clinches it.
https://britishheritage.com/history/old-masters-mosaics-roman-britain

Pt

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> on Sun, 08 Aug 2021 10:02:58
-0400 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>
>>> But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
>>> England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
>>
>>Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
>>There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
>
>Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with Caesar?
>>
>>Pt
When did the Romans leave Britannia?
When did the Anglo Saxons arrive?
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 10:52:10 PM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> on Sun, 08 Aug 2021 10:02:58
> -0400 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> >
> >>> But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
> >>> England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
> >>>
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
> >>
> >>Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
> >>There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
> >
> >Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with Caesar?

> When did the Romans leave Britannia?
> When did the Anglo Saxons arrive?

It was a gradual withdrawal. Many point to 411 AD,
when the Emperor Honorius replied to a request for help, with a
message that amounted to 'Sorry, you're on you own.'

Again, the arrival of the Saxons was gradual, but most accounts
would put it 20-30 years later.

Pt

In article <abaed8f6-b50f-4773-b667-7119e42ca990n@googlegroups.com>,
pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 10:52:10 PM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> on Sun, 08 Aug 2021 10:02:58
>> -0400 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>> >
>> >>> But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
>> >>> England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
>> >>>
>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
>> >>
>> >>Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
>> >>There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
>> >
>> >Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with Caesar?
>
>> When did the Romans leave Britannia?
>> When did the Anglo Saxons arrive?
>
>It was a gradual withdrawal. Many point to 411 AD,
>when the Emperor Honorius replied to a request for help, with a
>message that amounted to 'Sorry, you're on you own.'
>
>Again, the arrival of the Saxons was gradual, but most accounts
>would put it 20-30 years later.

Romans leave; Saxons see opportunity.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 12:31:48 AM UTC-4, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 10:52:10 PM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> on Sun, 08 Aug 2021 10:02:58
> > -0400 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> > >
> > >>> But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
> > >>> England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
> > >>>
> > >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
> > >>
> > >>Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
> > >>There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
> > >
> > >Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with Caesar?
> > When did the Romans leave Britannia?
> > When did the Anglo Saxons arrive?
> It was a gradual withdrawal. Many point to 411 AD,
> when the Emperor Honorius replied to a request for help, with a
> message that amounted to 'Sorry, you're on you own.'
>
> Again, the arrival of the Saxons was gradual, but most accounts
> would put it 20-30 years later.

Some were already there, and had been for generations, as Roman
auxiliaries. No source that I have read gives a firm estimate of their numbers,
though. Might have been tens of thousands - Roman soldiers were not allowed
to marry, but that didn't stop them from having families.

Might also have been a thousand or so, if most left when the Romans did.

William Hyde

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1c0b7801-5435-4c66-b0ee-c938cdcd2f08n@googlegroups.com:

> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 1:40:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt
> wrote:
>> In article <2rdtgg1kf3jva45gk...@4ax.com>,
>> Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 16:01:46 -0400, J. Clarke
>> ><jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 12:27:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
>> >><ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> on Thu, 5 Aug 2021 21:49:32
>> >>>-0700 (PDT) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON
>> >>>>> >CHRONICLE,
>
>> >>>>> >book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada
>> >>>>> >Bookwright Fellowship."
>> >>>>> Danke.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the
>> >>>>Angle, Saxons
> &
>> >>>>Jutes have called a chronicle?
>> >>>
>> >>> Saga?
>> >>
>> >>Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed
>> >>up and introduced them to the concept?
>> >
>> ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle> states
>> >that
>> >
>> >The original manuscript of the Chronicle was created late in
>> >the 9th century, probably in Wessex, during the reign of
>> >Alfred the Great (r. 871–899). Multiple copies were made of
>> >that one original and the
> n
>> >distributed to monasteries across England, where they were
>> >independently updated. In one case, the Chronicle was still
>> >being actively updated in 1154.
>> >
>> >which was long after the Romans had come and gone.
>> >
>> >Perhaps, even at that time, "Chronicle" was a loan-word.
>> That, I can't say. Wish I could.
>>
>> But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
>> England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
>
> Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd
> Century. There is good evidence of continuity up until
> Augustine's arrival.
>
Christianty came to Britain pretty early, along with heresy (they
didn't invent Pelogianism, but they certainly embraced it). And in
the Celtic/Roman population, it was continuously present. After
Rome abandoned them, it sort of split into a separate branch
sometimes referred to as the Celtic Church. Basically (and horribly
oversimplying), it remained much the same as the Roman Church
developed into a recognizable Catholic Church. The reunification
came after (or as) the English were Christianized. It's not well
documented, because it was, astonishingly, very peaceful, as the
biships on both sides debated the theological issues like grown
ups, and agreed on who was right. (Catholics came out on top on the
form of the tonsure and the method of computing the date of Easter,
the Celtics on private vs public confession.)

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 12:55:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <abaed8f6-b50f-4773...@googlegroups.com>,
> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 10:52:10 PM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> >> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> on Sun, 08 Aug 2021 10:02:58
> >> -0400 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> >> >
> >> >>> But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
> >> >>> England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
> >> >>
> >> >>Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
> >> >>There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
> >> >
> >> >Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with Caesar?
> >
> >> When did the Romans leave Britannia?
> >> When did the Anglo Saxons arrive?
> >
> >It was a gradual withdrawal. Many point to 411 AD,
> >when the Emperor Honorius replied to a request for help, with a
> >message that amounted to 'Sorry, you're on you own.'
> >
> >Again, the arrival of the Saxons was gradual, but most accounts
> >would put it 20-30 years later.
> Romans leave; Saxons see opportunity.

Despite the invasions, Roman Britain seems to have survived and even expanded economically for
some decades, due in part to a lack of Roman taxation.

Steven Baxter portrays this to some degree in the first two hundred pages of his novel
"Coalescent". I enjoyed the non-SF part of that book more than most of his SF.

William Hyde

William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote in
news:16181d44-9c4f-4c48-b888-b875de86c861n@googlegroups.com:

> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 12:55:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J
> Heydt wrote:
>> In article <abaed8f6-b50f-4773...@googlegroups.com>,
>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 10:52:10 PM UTC-4, pyotr
>> >filipivich wrote:
>> >> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> on Sun, 08 Aug 2021
>> >> 10:02:58 -0400 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>> >> >
>> >> >>> But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the
>> >> >>> Church in England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came
>> >> >>> with it.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early
>> >> >>3rd Century. There is good evidence of continuity up until
>> >> >>Augustine's arrival.
>> >> >
>> >> >Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with
>> >> >Caesar?
>> >
>> >> When did the Romans leave Britannia?
>> >> When did the Anglo Saxons arrive?
>> >
>> >It was a gradual withdrawal. Many point to 411 AD,
>> >when the Emperor Honorius replied to a request for help, with
>> >a message that amounted to 'Sorry, you're on you own.'
>> >
>> >Again, the arrival of the Saxons was gradual, but most
>> >accounts would put it 20-30 years later.
>> Romans leave; Saxons see opportunity.
>
> Despite the invasions, Roman Britain seems to have survived and
> even expanded economically for some decades, due in part to a
> lack of Roman taxation.

It did quite well until sometime in the latter half of the 5th
century. There were (so far as we can tell) two major revolts by
the "Saxon" (there were several tribes) mercenaries, both of which
resulted in a mass migration of people with the means from Britain
to Amorica (now Brittany, for obvious reasons). Many of these were
skilled artisans and craftsmen, and they took a good deal of the
Roman economy with them. That, and the practical changes needed to
suppress the ex-mercenaries/now-invaders (which involved fortifying
cities, and the end of pax romana, was when it ceased being Roman
Britain and started to become Wales and Cornwall (though both names
were some time off).

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB