In article <t0iid2$j1q$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 3/12/2022 5:56 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
>>> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:15:49 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>>
>>>> To bring this back to SF - "Consider Phlebas" is, of course,
>>>> the canonical example of a culture war, or "Culture war".
>>>> Banks stated that he meant it as an allegory of the Afghan war,
>>>> with the Soviets as the Culture (the good guys) and the religious
>>>> bigots, the Idirians, as the Afghans (the bad guys). Unlike
>>>> in real life, in his novel the Communists won.
>>>
>>> How odd; in what possible perspective could the Soviets _ever_
>>> be considered to be the good guys?
>>
>> Politically, Banks was far left-wing, and the Culture was his Left
>> utopia.
>>
>> Consider the following points of the Culture, in no particular
>> order:
>>
>> - Nobody has to work unless they want to (like Marx)
>> - Abundance of material comforts
>> - Absence of sexual norms
>> - Abortion just by "thinking about it"
>> - In-built drug glands for every Culture citizen
>> - Gender a matter of choice
>> - Absence of religion (learning about somebody's religion
>> will let you learn about them, not from them)
>> - Equality of _all_ sentient beings, including machines
>>
>> plus the fact that he gave any religious people nasty personal
>> habits, and in this area, his imagination was quite vivid
>> (the "Eaters" being a particularly revolting example).
>>
>> In his worldview, the Communists were the good guys and on the
>> right side of history, or as one of his characters put, I think in
>> "State of the Art": "The future is red, bright red." That is
>> pure Marx.
>>
>> So, the Soviets, being Communists, were on the right side of history
>> for him.
>
>If the Soviets had actually _been_ Communists in the original meaning of
>the word....
>
Where did Banks talk about this?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:48:18 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <t0iid2$j1q$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >On 3/12/2022 5:56 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> >> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
> >>> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:15:49 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> To bring this back to SF - "Consider Phlebas" is, of course,
> >>>> the canonical example of a culture war, or "Culture war".
> >>>> Banks stated that he meant it as an allegory of the Afghan war,
> >>>> with the Soviets as the Culture (the good guys) and the religious
> >>>> bigots, the Idirians, as the Afghans (the bad guys). Unlike
> >>>> in real life, in his novel the Communists won.
> >>>
> >>> How odd; in what possible perspective could the Soviets _ever_
> >>> be considered to be the good guys?
> >>
> >> Politically, Banks was far left-wing, and the Culture was his Left
> >> utopia.
> >>
> >> Consider the following points of the Culture, in no particular
> >> order:
> >>
> >> - Nobody has to work unless they want to (like Marx)
> >> - Abundance of material comforts
> >> - Absence of sexual norms
> >> - Abortion just by "thinking about it"
> >> - In-built drug glands for every Culture citizen
> >> - Gender a matter of choice
> >> - Absence of religion (learning about somebody's religion
> >> will let you learn about them, not from them)
> >> - Equality of _all_ sentient beings, including machines
> >>
> >> plus the fact that he gave any religious people nasty personal
> >> habits, and in this area, his imagination was quite vivid
> >> (the "Eaters" being a particularly revolting example).
> >>
> >> In his worldview, the Communists were the good guys and on the
> >> right side of history, or as one of his characters put, I think in
> >> "State of the Art": "The future is red, bright red." That is
> >> pure Marx.
> >>
> >> So, the Soviets, being Communists, were on the right side of history
> >> for him.
> >
> >If the Soviets had actually _been_ Communists in the original meaning of
> >the word....
> >
> Where did Banks talk about this?
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
This doesn't answer the questions here, but I post the link http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm here because

1) It is piece by Iain Banks on the Culture
2) I was amused to find it via a reference from a page on the web site of the Socialist Party of Great Britain (whom I have never encountered before)
3) It is apparently a saved copy of a piece written by Iain Banks and posted by Ken MacLeod to this newsgroup.

FWIW SPGB seem to disapprove of Russia's current adventures but "In other words, we always need to bring into any explanation the nature of the whole global capitalist system as creating the conditions for wars."

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
news:0a24a543-7568-429c-bf42-8b842dac5c86n@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 7:51:34 PM UTC-5, Ninapenda Jibini
> wrote:
>> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:a6537fba-da06-424e...@googlegroups.com:
>> > On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 3:42:03 PM UTC-5, Ninapenda
>> > Jibini wrote:
>> >> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> >> news:a3298361-abc5-458d...@googlegroups.com:
>> >> > On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 10:11:47 PM UTC-5,
>> >> > Quadibloc wrote:
>> >> >> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 8:08:40 PM UTC-7,
>> >> >> Quadibloc wrote:
>> >> >> > According to fearless American news commentator Tucker
>> >> >> > Carlson, Zelensky is indeed madman trying to plunge
>> >> >> > world into war! As one comment on his YouTube video
>> >> >> > puts it, he is the only American news anchor daring to
>> >> >> > report on this story! Apparently, there is a biological
>> >> >> > warfare lab in the Ukraine! And what's worse is that
>> >> >> > this scoundrel Zelensky is not only planning to defy
>> >> >> > the norms of international conduct by using plague
>> >> >> > germs in warfare... but he tricked the American
>> >> >> > government into funding this mad scheme at the expense
>> >> >> > of the U.S. taxpayer!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Of course, sheeple like myself will say that the
>> >> >> > mainstream news media does not cover these things
>> >> >> > because... they aren't happening.
>> >> >> Ah, the mainstream news media is now taking notice of
>> >> >> Tucker Carlson's hijinks:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://globalnews.ca/news/8673062/russia-ukraine-conspira
>> >> >> cy- mis information-bioweapons-biolab/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Unfortunately, because nukes, the U.S. can't just declare
>> >> >> war on Russia so that this nut can finally get what he
>> >> >> deserves, and be charged with treason.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm surprised Tucker hasn't been investigated for failing
>> >> > to register as a Russian foreign agent. He's about the
>> >> > worst example of a human being I'm aware of.
>> >> >
>> >> Worse than Trump? Really?
>> >
>> > You have a point. Putin too.
>> >
>> > If I had to defend the position, Putin knows what he's doing,
>> > but his values and priorities are just alien, due to the
>> > environment he grew up in.
>> Only in the sense that said environment has made him batshit
>> crazy, and something more recent has made him stupid.
>> > Trump seems to be lacking in self
>> > awareness and self control, and is a massive narcissist.
>> > Conversely, Tucker seems aware of what he's doing, is
>> > perfectly aware that he's lying to his audience, and has
>> > decided he doesn't care that he's turning America to shit, as
>> > long he is well paid.
>> Which makes him no different than any other pundit on any side
>> of the political spectrum. Only a bit better at it than most.
>> >
>> > Putin knows, but feels justified.
>> > Trump doesn't know, and doesn't understand why he's being
>> > criticized. Tucker knows, and knows it's wrong, but has
>> > decided he doesn't care, as long as he's paid.
>> >
>> > Somehow that seems more wrong.
>> >
>> Tell that to all the dead Ukranians. And Russians, for that
>> matter, the best estimates on their casualties being in the
>> thousands, if not tens of thousands, already.
>
> Putin has undoubtedly caused far more suffering to date than the
> other two.
>
You're not a very good lefty, son. The current rhetoric is that
everything Putin has done is Trump's fault. Because every bad thing
that has ever happened, since the dawn o time, is Trump's fault.

Enjoy that reeducation camp.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On 3/12/2022 10:20 AM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:48:18 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <t0iid2$j1q$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 3/12/2022 5:56 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
>>>>> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:15:49 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> To bring this back to SF - "Consider Phlebas" is, of course,
>>>>>> the canonical example of a culture war, or "Culture war".
>>>>>> Banks stated that he meant it as an allegory of the Afghan war,
>>>>>> with the Soviets as the Culture (the good guys) and the religious
>>>>>> bigots, the Idirians, as the Afghans (the bad guys). Unlike
>>>>>> in real life, in his novel the Communists won.
>>>>>
>>>>> How odd; in what possible perspective could the Soviets _ever_
>>>>> be considered to be the good guys?
>>>>
>>>> Politically, Banks was far left-wing, and the Culture was his Left
>>>> utopia.
>>>>
>>>> Consider the following points of the Culture, in no particular
>>>> order:
>>>>
>>>> - Nobody has to work unless they want to (like Marx)
>>>> - Abundance of material comforts
>>>> - Absence of sexual norms
>>>> - Abortion just by "thinking about it"
>>>> - In-built drug glands for every Culture citizen
>>>> - Gender a matter of choice
>>>> - Absence of religion (learning about somebody's religion
>>>> will let you learn about them, not from them)
>>>> - Equality of _all_ sentient beings, including machines
>>>>
>>>> plus the fact that he gave any religious people nasty personal
>>>> habits, and in this area, his imagination was quite vivid
>>>> (the "Eaters" being a particularly revolting example).
>>>>
>>>> In his worldview, the Communists were the good guys and on the
>>>> right side of history, or as one of his characters put, I think in
>>>> "State of the Art": "The future is red, bright red." That is
>>>> pure Marx.
>>>>
>>>> So, the Soviets, being Communists, were on the right side of history
>>>> for him.
>>>
>>> If the Soviets had actually _been_ Communists in the original meaning of
>>> the word....
>>>
>> Where did Banks talk about this?
>>
> This doesn't answer the questions here, but I post the link http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm here because
>
> 1) It is piece by Iain Banks on the Culture
> 2) I was amused to find it via a reference from a page on the web site of the Socialist Party of Great Britain (whom I have never encountered before)
> 3) It is apparently a saved copy of a piece written by Iain Banks and posted by Ken MacLeod to this newsgroup.
>
> FWIW SPGB seem to disapprove of Russia's current adventures but "In other words, we always need to bring into any explanation the nature of the whole global capitalist system as creating the conditions for wars."

So, no matter how terrible the autocrats are or what they do its always
Capitalism's fault.

As for Mr. Nicoll's question I have no idea what Mr. Banks' politics
are. My post was more pointing out that the nations calling themselves
"Communist" were and are not actually following the communist political
philosophy of a class-less society where everyone shares equally. So if
he was rooting for the Soviet Union at some level, he wasn't rooting for
the people likely to create the kind of society he is depicting in The
Culture.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:15:49 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>
>> There is one aspect to this war which has found little mention
>> in the Western media, but which plays a significant role in
>> Russia's motivations - values.
>
> Because Russia has a significant Jewish minority, and Jewish
> people have been prominent in opposition to tyranny in Russia
> before as well as under Putin - for example, Kasparov - I think
> the attacks on gays in Russia are not primarily a sop to the
> Orthodox Church, but instead a way for Putin to show that he is...
> illiberal... in order to create a chilling effect on political
> opposition from Russia's Jews.

First I ever heard abut that. Do you have any sources?

On 3/12/2022 2:58 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
>> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:15:49 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>
>>> There is one aspect to this war which has found little mention
>>> in the Western media, but which plays a significant role in
>>> Russia's motivations - values.
>>
>> Because Russia has a significant Jewish minority, and Jewish
>> people have been prominent in opposition to tyranny in Russia
>> before as well as under Putin - for example, Kasparov - I think
>> the attacks on gays in Russia are not primarily a sop to the
>> Orthodox Church, but instead a way for Putin to show that he is...
>> illiberal... in order to create a chilling effect on political
>> opposition from Russia's Jews.
>
> First I ever heard abut that. Do you have any sources?

Quaddie never has sources.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 3:58:56 PM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:

> > Because Russia has a significant Jewish minority, and Jewish
> > people have been prominent in opposition to tyranny in Russia
> > before as well as under Putin - for example, Kasparov - I think
> > the attacks on gays in Russia are not primarily a sop to the
> > Orthodox Church, but instead a way for Putin to show that he is...
> > illiberal... in order to create a chilling effect on political
> > opposition from Russia's Jews.

> First I ever heard abut that. Do you have any sources?

The _conclusion_ is my own.

It _is_ a fact that there are a lot of Jewish people in Russia.
Russian emigration westward used to be where Europe's
Jewish population came from, and then many Jews emigrated
from Russia to Israel instead in the postwar era.

It is also a fact that a number of Jewish people had
been active in protests against autocracy in Russia. Kasparov
against Putin, and I bellieve many others in the Soviet period.

Oh, and here's this article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26786213

However, this paper

https://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1028&context=ppe_honors

notes that _so far_, Vladimir Putin's regime has been far less
anti-Semitic than one might expect. But that's not inconsistent
with my assessment; I think he recognizes how the world feels
about anti-Semitism after the Nazis, and so he is going for a
subtle approach.

That Jews are frightened by any political leader who is illiberal
and who stokes the fires of ethnic nationalism, of course, should
hardly need any additional proof.

John Savard

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 08:40:04 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 3/12/2022 5:56 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
>>> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:15:49 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>>
>>>> To bring this back to SF - "Consider Phlebas" is, of course,
>>>> the canonical example of a culture war, or "Culture war".
>>>> Banks stated that he meant it as an allegory of the Afghan war,
>>>> with the Soviets as the Culture (the good guys) and the religious
>>>> bigots, the Idirians, as the Afghans (the bad guys). Unlike
>>>> in real life, in his novel the Communists won.
>>>
>>> How odd; in what possible perspective could the Soviets _ever_
>>> be considered to be the good guys?
>>
>> Politically, Banks was far left-wing, and the Culture was his Left
>> utopia.
>>
>> Consider the following points of the Culture, in no particular
>> order:
>>
>> - Nobody has to work unless they want to (like Marx)
>> - Abundance of material comforts
>> - Absence of sexual norms
>> - Abortion just by "thinking about it"
>> - In-built drug glands for every Culture citizen
>> - Gender a matter of choice
>> - Absence of religion (learning about somebody's religion
>> will let you learn about them, not from them)
>> - Equality of _all_ sentient beings, including machines
>>
>> plus the fact that he gave any religious people nasty personal
>> habits, and in this area, his imagination was quite vivid
>> (the "Eaters" being a particularly revolting example).
>>
>> In his worldview, the Communists were the good guys and on the
>> right side of history, or as one of his characters put, I think in
>> "State of the Art": "The future is red, bright red." That is
>> pure Marx.
>>
>> So, the Soviets, being Communists, were on the right side of history
>> for him.
>
>If the Soviets had actually _been_ Communists in the original meaning of
>the word....

CINO (Communists In Name Only)?

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

On 2022-03-11 10:13 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:06:31 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 10:11:47 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 8:08:40 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> According to fearless American news commentator Tucker Carlson, Zelensky is indeed
>>>> madman trying to plunge world into war!
>>>> As one comment on his YouTube video puts it, he is the only American news anchor
>>>> daring to report on this story!
>>>> Apparently, there is a biological warfare lab in the Ukraine!
>>>> And what's worse is that this scoundrel Zelensky is not only planning to defy the
>>>> norms of international conduct by using plague germs in warfare... but he tricked the
>>>> American government into funding this mad scheme at the expense of the U.S.
>>>> taxpayer!
>>>>
>>>> Of course, sheeple like myself will say that the mainstream news media does not
>>>> cover these things because... they aren't happening.
>>> Ah, the mainstream news media is now taking notice of Tucker Carlson's
>>> hijinks:
>>>
>>> https://globalnews.ca/news/8673062/russia-ukraine-conspiracy-misinformation-bioweapons-biolab/
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, because nukes, the U.S. can't just declare war on Russia so that
>>> this nut can finally get what he deserves, and be charged with treason.
>>
>> I'm surprised Tucker hasn't been investigated for failing to register as a Russian
>> foreign agent. He's about the worst example of a human being I'm aware of.
>
> Among others, including one Congresscritter who appears to be spouting
> the same Russian propaganda and, of course, Donald Trump, whose
> constant praise of Putin over the years is very obvious and on record.
>
> But perhaps the relevant law doesn't apply to journalists and
> politicians.

It doesn't apply to people who aren't getting paid by the country they
support but just do it because they admire the oppressive dictator's
style. That is simply free speech.

On 2022-03-12 6:06 a.m., Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 10:57:42 PM UTC-7, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
>> The more the West can perform as a meritocracy
>> guided by objective truth, the more advantage it
>> has over the likes of Putin.
>
> This is very true. Unfortunately, however, the West's advantage
> over Russia has not proved sufficient to ensure that there would
> be *no loss of life whatsoever* in Ukraine due to Russian military
> action.
>
> As far as I am concerned, this is the only acceptable standard.
>
> Because Russia has nuclear weapons, it will not even be possible
> to end this war in a just manner. Since Russia has killed one or
> more innocent persons,

Name a country bigger than Andorra that hasn't killed one or more
innocent persons.

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 5:38:39 PM UTC-6, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2022-03-12 6:06 a.m., Quadibloc wrote:

> > Because Russia has nuclear weapons, it will not even be possible
> > to end this war in a just manner. Since Russia has killed one or
> > more innocent persons,

> Name a country bigger than Andorra that hasn't killed one or more
> innocent persons.

I don't mean throughout the entire extent of its history, I mean as part
of the current war of aggression.

John Savard

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 5:34:27 PM UTC-6, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2022-03-11 10:13 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> > On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:06:31 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
> > <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> I'm surprised Tucker hasn't been investigated for failing to register as a Russian
> >> foreign agent. He's about the worst example of a human being I'm aware of.

> > Among others, including one Congresscritter who appears to be spouting
> > the same Russian propaganda and, of course, Donald Trump, whose
> > constant praise of Putin over the years is very obvious and on record.

> > But perhaps the relevant law doesn't apply to journalists and
> > politicians.

> It doesn't apply to people who aren't getting paid by the country they
> support but just do it because they admire the oppressive dictator's
> style. That is simply free speech.

This is true enough. And since Fox News is basically a _cable_ television
channel, it is more like print media than a television station using the
closely regulated public airwaves.

John Savard

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 9:37:25 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> The /real/ issue, if there were one, would be whether Russia is going
> out of its way to kill civilians. That is not "collateral damage",
> that is a war crime.

Yes, Russia is. For example, they directly shelled a maternity hospital.

But at least they waited until the day after International Women's Day
to do it!

John Savard

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 9:34:28 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> Would being blackmailed count? That is, does the payment have to be a
> something one is given rather than something that is not done to one?

Yes, it would. The essential element of being a foreign agent is acting
on behalf of a foreign government; why one is doing so, whether for money,
due to blackmail, or even quite voluntarily (so evidence of taking directions
is enough) is not important.

John Savard

On Monday, 14 March 2022 at 03:45:39 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 5:38:39 PM UTC-6, David Johnston wrote:
> > On 2022-03-12 6:06 a.m., Quadibloc wrote:
>
> > > Because Russia has nuclear weapons, it will not even be possible
> > > to end this war in a just manner. Since Russia has killed one or
> > > more innocent persons,
>
> > Name a country bigger than Andorra that hasn't killed one or more
> > innocent persons.
> I don't mean throughout the entire extent of its history, I mean as part
> of the current war of aggression.

I thought you were talking about murder generally.
Assassination. State-enacted poisonings, shootings,
and people who just disappear - in the "not around
any more" sense of "disappear". Russia has plenty
of recent cases on its account. The United States
has some.

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:367b4595-0afc-4e9c-a057-8295f3b0e9c2n@googlegroups.com:

> On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 9:37:25 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
> wrote:
>
>> The /real/ issue, if there were one, would be whether Russia is
>> going out of its way to kill civilians. That is not "collateral
>> damage", that is a war crime.
>
> Yes, Russia is. For example, they directly shelled a maternity
> hospital.

Is there evidence they *targeted* the materinity hospital, rather
than just fucking up? Credible evidence?

And, for that matter, is there any reason to believe there weren't
Ukranian military people using the hospital as a base of operations?

You don't know. And never will, being uninterested in facts.

But Ukraine is *certainly* winning the propaganda war, and Putin has
been batshit crazy and dangerous for decades.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:25a8b1ae-462f-495c-9906-3bb47e961fb0n@googlegroups.com:

> On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 9:34:28 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
> wrote:
>
>> Would being blackmailed count? That is, does the payment have
>> to be a something one is given rather than something that is
>> not done to one?
>
> Yes, it would. The essential element of being a foreign agent is
> acting on behalf of a foreign government;

Not acting is sometimes an act.

Unlike you, it's not so simple.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 1:00:19 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
> news:25a8b1ae-462f-495c...@googlegroups.com:
> > On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 9:34:28 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Would being blackmailed count? That is, does the payment have
> >> to be a something one is given rather than something that is
> >> not done to one?
> >
> > Yes, it would. The essential element of being a foreign agent is
> > acting on behalf of a foreign government;
> Not acting is sometimes an act.
>
> Unlike you, it's not so simple.
> --
> Terry Austin
>
> Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
> Lynn:
> https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
> (May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
> illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)
>
> Vacation photos from Iceland:
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Here's an MSNBC clip calling out Carlson's lying on Russian claims
of Ukrainian bioweapons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqwfbKrU3Eo

pt

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
news:98bee50f-449c-4f00-8896-f21cb057524dn@googlegroups.com:

> On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 1:00:19 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>> news:25a8b1ae-462f-495c...@googlegroups.com:
>> > On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 9:34:28 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Would being blackmailed count? That is, does the payment
>> >> have to be a something one is given rather than something
>> >> that is not done to one?
>> >
>> > Yes, it would. The essential element of being a foreign agent
>> > is acting on behalf of a foreign government;
>> Not acting is sometimes an act.
>>
>> Unlike you, it's not so simple.
>> --
>> Terry Austin
>>
>> Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider
>> than Lynn:
>> https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
>> (May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United
>> States illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest
>> border.)
>>
>> Vacation photos from Iceland:
>> https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
>
> Here's an MSNBC clip calling out Carlson's lying on Russian
> claims of Ukrainian bioweapons.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqwfbKrU3Eo
>
Do you have any evidence that he knows it's untrue? Because if he
believes it (which seems entirely plausible, it *is* an idiot),
it's not a lie.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
news:9a0v2h96s2luc45sdpcfbd6i8d4a657alr@4ax.com:

> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 09:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 9:34:28 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
>>wrote:
>>
>>> Would being blackmailed count? That is, does the payment have
>>> to be a something one is given rather than something that is
>>> not done to one?
>>
>>Yes, it would. The essential element of being a foreign agent is
>>acting on behalf of a foreign government; why one is doing so,
>>whether for money, due to blackmail, or even quite voluntarily
>>(so evidence of taking directions is enough) is not important.
>
> So you're saying that someone who is acting on behalf of a
> foreign government due to blackmail should be considered a
> criminal due to failure to register as a foreign agent?
>
> That's blaming the victim, and playing into the foreign
> government's hands.
>
You seem to be saying that if someone is blackmailed into, say,
murdering someone, the murderer shouldn't be punished because
they're the victim.

I believe you haven't really thought this through very well.

(In the real world, not that you have any connection with it, the
blackmail is a mitigating circumstance taking into account at the
sentencing, but it is *not* a defense.)

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 10:58:45 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

> Is there evidence they *targeted* the materinity hospital, rather
> than just fucking up? Credible evidence?
>
> And, for that matter, is there any reason to believe there weren't
> Ukranian military people using the hospital as a base of operations?
>
> You don't know. And never will, being uninterested in facts.

You raise an important question.

If I just automatically believe everything I hear on the mainstream
media, then how am I any better than the Russians who, believing
what their censored and controlled media tells them, are waving
the letter Z to show their support for the war?

After all, they did lie to us about the incubators in Kuwait.

And then there was "Deliver us from Evil" by Tom Dooley. I
thought that was an accurate account of the atrocities of the
Viet Cong. Instead, I learn that he was blackmailed into
spreading lies because he was found out to have been a
homosexual.

The advantage I have over those Russians, though, is that I
live in Canada and not Russia. I know from my personal
experience that Canada is a free country - even if it isn't as
free, according to their definition of freedom, as some Trump
supporters and anti-vaxxers would like.

The Canadian government isn't terrified that people here
will find out what, say, al-Jazeera is saying. People don't
disappear in the middle of the night because the secret police
have come for them, and so on.

Thus, those segments of the mainstream news media that are
not in the entertainment business, but are sober and responsible,
can indeed be relied upon for the truth to a certain extent.

John Savard

The only difference between your news media (or the US) and Russia's
is how subtle they are. They're all propaganda.

You just believe what you want to be true, like most people.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 2:35:25 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:98bee50f-449c-4f00...@googlegroups.com:
> > On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 1:00:19 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
> >> news:25a8b1ae-462f-495c...@googlegroups.com:
> >> > On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 9:34:28 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Would being blackmailed count? That is, does the payment
> >> >> have to be a something one is given rather than something
> >> >> that is not done to one?
> >> >
> >> > Yes, it would. The essential element of being a foreign agent
> >> > is acting on behalf of a foreign government;
> >> Not acting is sometimes an act.
> >>
> >> Unlike you, it's not so simple.
> >> --
> >> Terry Austin
> >>
> >> Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider
> >> than Lynn:
> >> https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
> >> (May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United
> >> States illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest
> >> border.)
> >>
> >> Vacation photos from Iceland:
> >> https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
> >
> > Here's an MSNBC clip calling out Carlson's lying on Russian
> > claims of Ukrainian bioweapons.
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqwfbKrU3Eo
> >
> Do you have any evidence that he knows it's untrue? Because if he
> believes it (which seems entirely plausible, it *is* an idiot),
> it's not a lie.

That's irrelevant. Regardless of whether he believes it or not,
he's spreading Russian disinformation, and acting in Russias
interest.

Pt

On 2022-03-14 11:55 a.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 09:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 9:34:28 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>> Would being blackmailed count? That is, does the payment have to be a
>>> something one is given rather than something that is not done to one?
>>
>> Yes, it would. The essential element of being a foreign agent is acting
>> on behalf of a foreign government; why one is doing so, whether for money,
>> due to blackmail, or even quite voluntarily (so evidence of taking directions
>> is enough) is not important.
>
> So you're saying that someone who is acting on behalf of a foreign
> government due to blackmail should be considered a criminal due to
> failure to register as a foreign agent?
>
> That's blaming the victim, and playing into the foreign government's
> hands.

If you are blackmailed into committing a crime, you are still committing
a crime.

On 15/03/22 16:14, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2022-03-14 11:55 a.m., J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 09:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 9:34:28 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>
>>>> Would being blackmailed count? That is, does the payment have to be a
>>>> something one is given rather than something that is not done to one?
>>>
>>> Yes, it would. The essential element of being a foreign agent is acting
>>> on behalf of a foreign government; why one is doing so, whether for
>>> money,
>>> due to blackmail, or even quite voluntarily (so evidence of taking
>>> directions
>>> is enough) is not important.
>>
>> So you're saying that someone who is acting on behalf of a foreign
>> government due to blackmail should be considered a criminal due to
>> failure to register as a foreign agent?
>>
>> That's blaming the victim, and playing into the foreign government's
>> hands.
>
> If you are blackmailed into committing a crime, you are still committing
> a crime.

The grand old Duke of York
He had 12 million quid
He gave it to someone he never met
For something he never did.

Don't mention Bill Clinton, Bill Gates etc, ad infinitum...