On 3/22/2022 10:13 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <po9l3h13t86vgk10no4hg5fhrpg9lv8s7s@4ax.com>,
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 16:46:36 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:30:28 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>>>> news:r95u4y.JLJ@kithrup.com:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <t1d2tg$o4v$5@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>>>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>>>> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <ted@loft.tnolan.com> schrieb:
>>>>>>> In article <t1bg6n$ql4$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> "A 1986 dystopian Russian novel basically predicted Vladimir
>>>>>>>> Putin"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-1986-dystopian-russian-n
>>>>>>>> ovel-basically-predicted-vladimir-putin/ar-AAVjwxz
>>>>>> Which one, and when? Cellphones seem notably absent from a lot
>>>>>> of SF. Even "Neuromancer", from 1984, has phone booths and
>>>>>> no mobile phones, after the first mobile phone came on the
>>>>>> market.
>>>
>>> OK so I'm not crazy or demented. THought I remembered that.
>>>
>>> Of course there was always Dick Tracy's (40s era?) Two Way Wrist Radio
>>> - I stopped reading when they killed off the Moon Maid
>>
>> Some time in the '60s the Two Way Wrist Radio got video.
>>
>>>>> _Space Cadet,_ early '50s. The cadet-applicants are waiting for
>>>>> transport to the Academy, and one of them gets a nervous
>>>>> parental call, is he all right, is he taking care of himself?
>>>>> much to his embarrassment. Another cadet tells him he should've
>>>>> packed his phone deep in his baggage.
>>>>>
>>>> The most famous prediction of cell phones is, of course, Star Trek.
>>>
>>> Well yes and no - I'm pretty sure the ST communicator worked from
>>> Earth orbit to ground and no towers were involved no?
>>
>> It would be more in the nature of a satphone I suspect. Of course
>> compared to anythine we use, the Enterprise could carry an immense
>> antenna array.
>>
>>
>
> I'm trying to remember -- in TOS did they ever make away-team to away-team
> calls or was it all ship-to-shore (and vice-versa) stuff? I rememer that
> on the ship itself, they used (presumably wired) station-to-station
> intercoms.

TOS Communicators were routinely used to make "person to person" calls
between members of an away team. They also could be used on board ship
but were generally not carried around when on the ship.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 3/22/2022 11:18 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 20:49:20 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 8:55:57 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 7:20:06 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Perhaps Paris, 1890:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo_eZuOTBNc
>>>> Scroll to 4:54
>>
>>> From the comments, apparently the moving sidewalks
>>> were from the Paris Exposition of 1900.
>>
>> However, it's still wonderful that you remembered this
>> and posted the link. Even though that wasn't even the
>> first moving sidewalk, those were still only something
>>from the science-fiction future during the 1960s, and
>> it wasn't until much later that they were a common
>> sight at airports - although attempts were made, I
>> see from Wikipedia, in 1958 at a railway station, and
>> in 1960 at an airport.
>>
>> John Savard
>
> The whole point of Heinlein's version was that there were several rows
> of 'roads' at incremental speeds where one was expected to move from
> left ot right or right versa to reach a comfortable speed. I've been
> on of airport moving sidewalks but have never seen anything at all
> like that.
>
> According to Heinlein safely changing your speed was a skill everybody
> knew from childhood. If it were that simple wouldn't we all be using
> those by now?

Mechanically simpler, more reliable, more versatile, cheaper and safer
to use motorized vehicles on a stationary road.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Hi all,

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:18:37 AM UTC+2, The Horny Goat wrote:
<<much snipped>>
>
> According to Heinlein safely changing your speed was a skill everybody
> knew from childhood. If it were that simple wouldn't we all be using
> those by now?

I don't know about how things work elsewhere in the world (my exposure to elsewhere being very, very, very short compared with total hours of life so far) but I live in part of the world where some adults can not easily get onto an escalator. Trying to get them onto a moving walkway and then onto a faster one would just be lining the building's owners / operators up for a law suit.

There are also adults who can't seem to master getting in and out of an elevator without tripping.

This is presumably to do with exposure. The people in question are largely rural and are visiting a semi-modern (recently renovated) mall for the first time in their life. They want to take the stairs but the architects (and owners) felt that those were unnecessary and failed to include them.

Alternatively, on one of my trips out of SA I did experience moving walkways at Frankfurt airport (not a nice place to get stuck at for a seven hour lay-over on a Sunday - almost nothing was open, and none of the signage was in any language other than German - the few Germans my group did have contact with made us fully aware that we had spoiled their weekend plans). Anyway, one individual who looked the part of an experienced and seasoned global traveler boarded the walkway just ahead of my group. Two drag-along items of luggage and one presumably carry on bag under one arm. Failed to get the drag-alongs going at the right speed and end up flat on his backside with the one item of luggage still at the get-on point. The German security were not surprised or really that concerned. One poked the abandoned luggage onto the walkway with his toe and it presumably made it to the end to be reunited with its owner. The signage at the get on point clearly indicated no big luggage and that one hand was supposed to be on the moving rail.

Anyway,

Take care out there.

Regards
Frank

In article <a700f03b-30a8-4aff-8075-f85fbe851a16n@googlegroups.com>,
Frank Scrooby <frank.scrooby@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:18:37 AM UTC+2, The Horny Goat wrote:
><<much snipped>>
>>
>> According to Heinlein safely changing your speed was a skill everybody
>> knew from childhood. If it were that simple wouldn't we all be using
>> those by now?
>
>I don't know about how things work elsewhere in the world (my exposure
>to elsewhere being very, very, very short compared with total hours of
>life so far) but I live in part of the world where some adults can not
>easily get onto an escalator. Trying to get them onto a moving walkway
>and then onto a faster one would just be lining the building's owners /
>operators up for a law suit.
>
>
>There are also adults who can't seem to master getting in and out of an
>elevator without tripping.
>
>This is presumably to do with exposure. The people in question are
>largely rural and are visiting a semi-modern (recently renovated) mall
>for the first time in their life. They want to take the stairs but the
>architects (and owners) felt that those were unnecessary and failed to
>include them.

It's a health thing too. I remember the last time that my father
took an escalator and realized that he no longer had the coordination
and surefootedness to safely disembark. He kind of froze, and if
I hadn't been there, it could have been very bad.

>
>Alternatively, on one of my trips out of SA I did experience moving
>walkways at Frankfurt airport (not a nice place to get stuck at for a
>seven hour lay-over on a Sunday - almost nothing was open, and none of
>the signage was in any language other than German - the few Germans my
>group did have contact with made us fully aware that we had spoiled
>their weekend plans). Anyway, one individual who looked the part of an
>experienced and seasoned global traveler boarded the walkway just ahead
>of my group. Two drag-along items of luggage and one presumably carry on
>bag under one arm. Failed to get the drag-alongs going at the right
>speed and end up flat on his backside with the one item of luggage still
>at the get-on point. The German security were not surprised or really
>that concerned. One poked the abandoned luggage onto the walkway with
>his toe and it presumably made it to the end to be reunited with its
>owner. The signage at the get on point clearly indicated no big luggage
>and that one hand was supposed to be on the moving rail.
>

Curiously the one time I was in Frankfurt, I ran into an even worse
passenger safety nightmare: A building with paternoster lifts.

--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> Ted Nolan wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>> Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>> Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>>>>>> Ted Nolan schrieb:
>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "A 1986 dystopian Russian novel basically predicted Vladimir Putin"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-1986-dystopian-russian-novel-basically-predicted-vladimir-putin/ar-AAVjwxz
>>>>>>> Which one, and when? Cellphones seem notably absent from a lot
>>>>>>> of SF. Even "Neuromancer", from 1984, has phone booths and
>>>>>>> no mobile phones, after the first mobile phone came on the
>>>>>>> market.
>>>>
>>>> OK so I'm not crazy or demented. THought I remembered that.
>>>>
>>>> Of course there was always Dick Tracy's (40s era?) Two Way Wrist Radio
>>>> - I stopped reading when they killed off the Moon Maid
>>>
>>> Some time in the '60s the Two Way Wrist Radio got video.
>>>
>>>>>> _Space Cadet,_ early '50s. The cadet-applicants are waiting for
>>>>>> transport to the Academy, and one of them gets a nervous
>>>>>> parental call, is he all right, is he taking care of himself?
>>>>>> much to his embarrassment. Another cadet tells him he should've
>>>>>> packed his phone deep in his baggage.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The most famous prediction of cell phones is, of course, Star Trek.
>>>>
>>>> Well yes and no - I'm pretty sure the ST communicator worked from
>>>> Earth orbit to ground and no towers were involved no?
>>>
>>> It would be more in the nature of a satphone I suspect. Of course
>>> compared to anythine we use, the Enterprise could carry an immense
>>> antenna array.
>>
>> I'm trying to remember -- in TOS did they ever make away-team to away-team
>> calls or was it all ship-to-shore (and vice-versa) stuff? I rememer that
>> on the ship itself, they used (presumably wired) station-to-station
>> intercoms.
>
> TOS Communicators were routinely used to make "person to person" calls
> between members of an away team. They also could be used on board ship
> but were generally not carried around when on the ship.

Memory Alpha corroborates Terry (and has a lot more to say about
communicators in general).

The Star Trek Encyclopedia (3rd ed., p. 518) notes that, when
the communicator was first invented in 1964, it appeared to
be incredibly advanced and compact, with few believing that
Star Trek would still be airing when portable cellular phones
were invented. Dr. Martin Cooper, the inventor of the modern
mobile phone, credits the TOS communicator as being his
inspiration for coming up with the invention in the 1970s
(when he was a General Manager of Systems at Motorola). [11]
Stated André Bormanis, "Some engineer at Motorola thought,
'Hey it’d be cool to make this look like the communicator,
but we need to make it smaller. Or fold it. You can flip it
open like Kirk and Spock did, because that was so cool.'"
(The Fifty-Year Mission: The Next 25 Years, p. 32) An exhibit
that encompassed information on how the portable phone
originated from Star Trek was included in Star Trek: The
Exhibition when it moved to London in October 1995. (Star
Trek Monthly issue 9, p. 6) An actual TOS-era communicator
was also included in the exhibition but was a part of the
touring collection from its beginnings in Edinburgh. (Star
Trek Monthly issue 1, p. 20)

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Communicator

Edinburgh brings to mind Robert Carnegie. Given how Robert made me
aware of Memory Alpha in the first place, it surprises me how he
neglected to post pertinent phone data here. ( <- Most facetious, given
the posters involved in the thread.)

So, does this make me the group's biggest Trekkie for the day? (God help
me!) ROTFLMAO.

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 2:18:37 AM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 20:49:20 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 8:55:57 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 7:20:06 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> > Perhaps Paris, 1890:
> >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo_eZuOTBNc
> >> > Scroll to 4:54
> >
> >> From the comments, apparently the moving sidewalks
> >> were from the Paris Exposition of 1900.
> >
> >However, it's still wonderful that you remembered this
> >and posted the link. Even though that wasn't even the
> >first moving sidewalk, those were still only something
> >from the science-fiction future during the 1960s, and
> >it wasn't until much later that they were a common
> >sight at airports - although attempts were made, I
> >see from Wikipedia, in 1958 at a railway station, and
> >in 1960 at an airport.
> >
> >John Savard
> The whole point of Heinlein's version was that there were several rows
> of 'roads' at incremental speeds where one was expected to move from
> left ot right or right versa to reach a comfortable speed. I've been
> on of airport moving sidewalks but have never seen anything at all
> like that.
>
> According to Heinlein safely changing your speed was a skill everybody
> knew from childhood. If it were that simple wouldn't we all be using
> those by now?

Go back and look at the fin-de-siecle Paris YT clip I posted earlier.
The moving sidewalk there has two different speed belts. Late
Victorian Parisians aren't having a problem with it.

pt

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:14:22 AM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <a700f03b-30a8-4aff...@googlegroups.com>,
> Frank Scrooby <frank....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >
> >On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:18:37 AM UTC+2, The Horny Goat wrote:
> ><<much snipped>>
> >>
> >> According to Heinlein safely changing your speed was a skill everybody
> >> knew from childhood. If it were that simple wouldn't we all be using
> >> those by now?
> >
> >I don't know about how things work elsewhere in the world (my exposure
> >to elsewhere being very, very, very short compared with total hours of
> >life so far) but I live in part of the world where some adults can not
> >easily get onto an escalator. Trying to get them onto a moving walkway
> >and then onto a faster one would just be lining the building's owners /
> >operators up for a law suit.
> >
> >
> >There are also adults who can't seem to master getting in and out of an
> >elevator without tripping.
> >
> >This is presumably to do with exposure. The people in question are
> >largely rural and are visiting a semi-modern (recently renovated) mall
> >for the first time in their life. They want to take the stairs but the
> >architects (and owners) felt that those were unnecessary and failed to
> >include them.
> It's a health thing too. I remember the last time that my father
> took an escalator and realized that he no longer had the coordination
> and surefootedness to safely disembark. He kind of froze, and if
> I hadn't been there, it could have been very bad.
> >
> >Alternatively, on one of my trips out of SA I did experience moving
> >walkways at Frankfurt airport (not a nice place to get stuck at for a
> >seven hour lay-over on a Sunday - almost nothing was open, and none of
> >the signage was in any language other than German - the few Germans my
> >group did have contact with made us fully aware that we had spoiled
> >their weekend plans). Anyway, one individual who looked the part of an
> >experienced and seasoned global traveler boarded the walkway just ahead
> >of my group. Two drag-along items of luggage and one presumably carry on
> >bag under one arm. Failed to get the drag-alongs going at the right
> >speed and end up flat on his backside with the one item of luggage still
> >at the get-on point. The German security were not surprised or really
> >that concerned. One poked the abandoned luggage onto the walkway with
> >his toe and it presumably made it to the end to be reunited with its
> >owner. The signage at the get on point clearly indicated no big luggage
> >and that one hand was supposed to be on the moving rail.
> >
> Curiously the one time I was in Frankfurt, I ran into an even worse
> passenger safety nightmare: A building with paternoster lifts.

I've never encountered those (they look cool), but in Sweden, in the
mid-60s, at least some new public elevators had no interior
door - there was an ordinary swinging door onto the
shaft (locked unless the elevator was stopped at that
level), and riding inside, you watched the wall slide up and
down. The shaft interior was smooth, and flush with the elevator
opening, but I wonder about the safety record - Swedes were
usually pretty careful about that.

pt

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 6:43:14 AM UTC-4, Frank Scrooby wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:18:37 AM UTC+2, The Horny Goat wrote:
> <<much snipped>>
> >
> > According to Heinlein safely changing your speed was a skill everybody
> > knew from childhood. If it were that simple wouldn't we all be using
> > those by now?
> I don't know about how things work elsewhere in the world (my exposure to elsewhere being very, very, very short compared with total hours of life so far) but I live in part of the world where some adults can not easily get onto an escalator. Trying to get them onto a moving walkway and then onto a faster one would just be lining the building's owners / operators up for a law suit.

I thought you were in the South Bay area in CA, near Santa Cruz.

Fun factoid: there are a only two escalators in the entire state of Wyoming..

pt

On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 11:49:23 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 8:55:57 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 7:20:06 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps Paris, 1890:
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo_eZuOTBNc
> > > Scroll to 4:54
>
> > From the comments, apparently the moving sidewalks
> > were from the Paris Exposition of 1900.
> However, it's still wonderful that you remembered this
> and posted the link. Even though that wasn't even the
> first moving sidewalk, those were still only something
> from the science-fiction future during the 1960s, and
> it wasn't until much later that they were a common
> sight at airports - although attempts were made, I
> see from Wikipedia, in 1958 at a railway station, and
> in 1960 at an airport.

Note that the Paris slidewalk has two different speed
belts, and Parisian ladies are handling them like champs,
in bustle skirts.

pt

On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 10:51:10 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 2:30:33 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>
> > The most famous prediction of cell phones is, of course, Star Trek.
> While the Star Trek communicator in the original series did have the
> form factor of a flip phone, it clearly was _not_ a cellular phone. It
> was for use on alien planets, where a Federation cellular phone network
> was not pre-installed; instead, it communicated directly by some form
> of radio to the Enterprise.
>
> Since the Enterprise typically orbited planets in a very low orbit, subject
> to rapid decay if it lost thrust, it was clearly not in a geostationary orbit
> with line of sight to its ground parties. This was presumed to be in order to
> remain in transporter range at least when it passed over the location of
> the ground party.

As usual, you failed to research.

The Enterprise normally assumed 'standard orbit'. While that was
mostly undefined technobabble, the visual usually associated shows
the ship and a good chunk of the planet - its at least half a diameter
out.

The definition of 'standard orbit' was a but vague, but most of the data
is here: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Standard_orbit

One source indicates it can be 1000-7000 miles, and two indicate
its synchronous.

None of this 'skimming the atmosphere' stuff - that occurred, but it
was not standard.

pt

On Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 03:54:50 UTC, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

> Well, yeah, hindsight. I'm sure there were lots of 1986 Russian novels
> that predicted a lot of things. I mean, there was a Heinlein novel that
> predicted the cellphone, and one that predicted that travel would be via
> 100mph moving sidewalks.

Both of those "predictions" were made, in one work, before RAH
started writing. In Chapter V of _The 35th of May_, by Erich Kästner,
we find the following passage:

What impressed them most was the following: a gentleman was travelling
along the pavement in from of them, when suddenly he stepped off, took
a telephone receiver from his pocket and called a number. "Listen,
Gertrude," he said, "I shall be about an hour late for lunch to-day. I
have to look in at the laboratory. Good-bye, darling!" Then he put away
his pocket-telephone, stepped on to the moving band and rode off,
reading a book.

What impresses me the most is that the guy got off the slidewalk before
making his call.

<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?2331079>

--
Michael F. Stemper
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:14:22 AM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <a700f03b-30a8-4aff...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Frank Scrooby <frank....@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Curiously the one time I was in Frankfurt, I ran into an even worse
>> passenger safety nightmare: A building with paternoster lifts.
>
>I've never encountered those (they look cool), but in Sweden, in the
>mid-60s, at least some new public elevators had no interior
>door - there was an ordinary swinging door onto the
>shaft (locked unless the elevator was stopped at that
>level), and riding inside, you watched the wall slide up and
>down. The shaft interior was smooth, and flush with the elevator
>opening, but I wonder about the safety record - Swedes were
>usually pretty careful about that.

Most small lifts that I used in Europe in the 70's and
80's were similar.

ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) writes:
>In article <a700f03b-30a8-4aff-8075-f85fbe851a16n@googlegroups.com>,
>Frank Scrooby <frank.scrooby@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Curiously the one time I was in Frankfurt, I ran into an even worse
>passenger safety nightmare: A building with paternoster lifts.
>

Back in the 1980's, one of the parking garages in San Francisco
had a belt man lift (possibly reserved for valet parking, but we used
it anyway).

Saw belt manlifts quite often in feed mills and grain elevators in the
upper midwest in the 60's and 70's.

On 22/03/2022 23.57, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <4f90a4a6-9366-4959-8721-578b4267a9a9n@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>> Ah, wait a moment. If the communicators were using typical short-wave
>> radio frequencies, and the low orbit of the Enterprise was more of a
>> round-the-world flight within the atmosphere, specifically below the
>> ionosphere, that could work.
>
> The big ball of fire crossing the sky every 70-80 minutes would be a bit
> distracting. BTW, just how long of an antenna will short-wave need? If
> the wavelength is between 10 and 100 meters, wouldn't the antenna need
> to be about as long?

One-fourth is fine:
<http://www.redwaveradio.com/11_ec29cc383234663e_1.htm>

--
Michael F. Stemper
If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much
more like prunes than rhubarb does.

On 23/03/2022 08.31, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 10:51:10 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:

>> Since the Enterprise typically orbited planets in a very low orbit, subject
>> to rapid decay if it lost thrust, it was clearly not in a geostationary orbit
>> with line of sight to its ground parties. This was presumed to be in order to
>> remain in transporter range at least when it passed over the location of
>> the ground party.
>
> As usual, you failed to research.
>
> The Enterprise normally assumed 'standard orbit'. While that was
> mostly undefined technobabble, the visual usually associated shows
> the ship and a good chunk of the planet - its at least half a diameter
> out.

From a 2009 post by Juho Julkunen:

"Shall we assume standard orbit, Captain?"

"How about a proper orbit we don't need engine power to maintain?"

"Very amusing, Captain."

"<sigh> Standard orbit, mister Sulu."

Message-ID: <MPG.247efd1f69ae916098972a@news.kolumbus.fi>

--
Michael F. Stemper
If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much
more like prunes than rhubarb does.

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 10:19:16 AM UTC-4, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 23.57, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > In article <4f90a4a6-9366-4959...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> >> Ah, wait a moment. If the communicators were using typical short-wave
> >> radio frequencies, and the low orbit of the Enterprise was more of a
> >> round-the-world flight within the atmosphere, specifically below the
> >> ionosphere, that could work.
> >
> > The big ball of fire crossing the sky every 70-80 minutes would be a bit
> > distracting. BTW, just how long of an antenna will short-wave need? If
> > the wavelength is between 10 and 100 meters, wouldn't the antenna need
> > to be about as long?
> One-fourth is fine:
> <http://www.redwaveradio.com/11_ec29cc383234663e_1.htm>

My little multiband radio receives SW just fine with an antenna a
tad over 2 feet long.

pt

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote in
news:ijel3h1khfs0oia4aatlt9kj13ikg07j1e@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 03:12:39 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote in
>>news:lpnk3h1lqa4kgofts1psiles608jgo7vtd@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:30:28 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>>> Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>>>>news:r95u4y.JLJ@kithrup.com:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <t1d2tg$o4v$5@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>>>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>>>>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <ted@loft.tnolan.com> schrieb:
>>>>>>> In article <t1bg6n$ql4$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>"A 1986 dystopian Russian novel basically predicted
>>>>>>>>Vladimir Putin"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-1986-dystopian-russi
>>>>>>>>an -n ovel-basically-predicted-vladimir-putin/ar-AAVjwxz
>>>>>>Which one, and when? Cellphones seem notably absent from a
>>>>>>lot of SF. Even "Neuromancer", from 1984, has phone booths
>>>>>>and no mobile phones, after the first mobile phone came on
>>>>>>the market.
>>>
>>> OK so I'm not crazy or demented. THought I remembered that.
>>>
>>> Of course there was always Dick Tracy's (40s era?) Two Way
>>> Wrist Radio - I stopped reading when they killed off the Moon
>>> Maid
>>>
>>>>> _Space Cadet,_ early '50s. The cadet-applicants are waiting
>>>>> for transport to the Academy, and one of them gets a nervous
>>>>> parental call, is he all right, is he taking care of
>>>>> himself? much to his embarrassment. Another cadet tells him
>>>>> he should've packed his phone deep in his baggage.
>>>>>
>>>>The most famous prediction of cell phones is, of course, Star
>>>>Trek.
>>>
>>> Well yes and no - I'm pretty sure the ST communicator worked
>>> from Earth orbit to ground and no towers were involved no?
>>>
>>We have satellite phones right now. And have for decades.
>
> Why yes! Which was my whole point - that the Trek communicator
> isn't remotely like a cell phone.
>
Except for all the ways it is.

Those nits must be tasty.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote in
news:j9vok1Fbbl9U1@mid.individual.net:

> In article <po9l3h13t86vgk10no4hg5fhrpg9lv8s7s@4ax.com>,
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 16:46:36 -0700, The Horny Goat
>><lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:30:28 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>>>Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>>>>news:r95u4y.JLJ@kithrup.com:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <t1d2tg$o4v$5@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>>>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>>>>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <ted@loft.tnolan.com> schrieb:
>>>>>>> In article <t1bg6n$ql4$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>"A 1986 dystopian Russian novel basically predicted
>>>>>>>>Vladimir Putin"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-1986-dystopian-russi
>>>>>>>>an-n ovel-basically-predicted-vladimir-putin/ar-AAVjwxz
>>>>>>Which one, and when? Cellphones seem notably absent from a
>>>>>>lot of SF. Even "Neuromancer", from 1984, has phone booths
>>>>>>and no mobile phones, after the first mobile phone came on
>>>>>>the market.
>>>
>>>OK so I'm not crazy or demented. THought I remembered that.
>>>
>>>Of course there was always Dick Tracy's (40s era?) Two Way
>>>Wrist Radio - I stopped reading when they killed off the Moon
>>>Maid
>>
>>Some time in the '60s the Two Way Wrist Radio got video.
>>
>>>>> _Space Cadet,_ early '50s. The cadet-applicants are waiting
>>>>> for transport to the Academy, and one of them gets a nervous
>>>>> parental call, is he all right, is he taking care of
>>>>> himself? much to his embarrassment. Another cadet tells him
>>>>> he should've packed his phone deep in his baggage.
>>>>>
>>>>The most famous prediction of cell phones is, of course, Star
>>>>Trek.
>>>
>>>Well yes and no - I'm pretty sure the ST communicator worked
>>>from Earth orbit to ground and no towers were involved no?
>>
>>It would be more in the nature of a satphone I suspect. Of
>>course compared to anythine we use, the Enterprise could carry
>>an immense antenna array.
>>
>>
>
> I'm trying to remember -- in TOS did they ever make away-team to
> away-team calls or was it all ship-to-shore (and vice-versa)
> stuff? I rememer that on the ship itself, they used (presumably
> wired) station-to-station intercoms.

Since we're pedantically picking nits, I will note that TOS didn't
*have* away teams, they had landing parties.

So technically, the answer to your question is "no," since an away
team that doesn't exist can't do much of anything.

But landing parties did so all the time.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote in
news:robertaw-3C3DD3.21572922032022@news.individual.net:

> In article
> <4f90a4a6-9366-4959-8721-578b4267a9a9n@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 2:30:33 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
>> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>
>> > The most famous prediction of cell phones is, of course, Star
>> > Trek.
>>
>> While the Star Trek communicator in the original series did
>> have the form factor of a flip phone, it clearly was _not_ a
>> cellular phone. It was for use on alien planets, where a
>> Federation cellular phone network was not pre-installed;
>> instead, it communicated directly by some form of radio to the
>> Enterprise.
>>
> <snip of possible communications problems>
>> Ah, wait a moment. If the communicators were using typical
>> short-wave radio frequencies, and the low orbit of the
>> Enterprise was more of a round-the-world flight within the
>> atmosphere, specifically below the ionosphere, that could work.
>
> The big ball of fire crossing the sky every 70-80 minutes would
> be a bit distracting. BTW, just how long of an antenna will
> short-wave need? If the wavelength is between 10 and 100 meters,
> wouldn't the antenna need to be about as long?
>
At the time, more or less. Now, they use fractal designs that are
*much* smaller. Hence, cell phones.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:4f90a4a6-9366-4959-8721-578b4267a9a9n@googlegroups.com:

> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 2:30:33 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>
>> The most famous prediction of cell phones is, of course, Star
>> Trek.
>
> While the Star Trek communicator in the original series did have
> the form factor of a flip phone, it clearly was _not_ a cellular
> phone.

See the refrences elsewhere about the guy who invented the modern
cell phone explicitly saying ST communicators were his inspiration,
documented at Memory Alpha.

Also, if we're pedantically picking nits, the phone you carry now
isn't a cell phone, either. Technically, nothing since mobile phones
have gone digital have been.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote in

>> Why yes! Which was my whole point - that the Trek communicator
>> isn't remotely like a cell phone.
>>
>Except for all the ways it is.
>
>Those nits must be tasty.

The word "cell" as used in "cellphone" implies many recieve/transmit
stations (cells) working in concert to provide coverage.

The Trek communicator isn't remotely like a cell phone in the most
basic way.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote in
>news:robertaw-3C3DD3.21572922032022@news.individual.net:
>
>> In article
>> <4f90a4a6-9366-4959-8721-578b4267a9a9n@googlegroups.com>,
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 2:30:33 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
>>> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>
>>> > The most famous prediction of cell phones is, of course, Star
>>> > Trek.
>>>
>>> While the Star Trek communicator in the original series did
>>> have the form factor of a flip phone, it clearly was _not_ a
>>> cellular phone. It was for use on alien planets, where a
>>> Federation cellular phone network was not pre-installed;
>>> instead, it communicated directly by some form of radio to the
>>> Enterprise.
>>>
>> <snip of possible communications problems>
>>> Ah, wait a moment. If the communicators were using typical
>>> short-wave radio frequencies, and the low orbit of the
>>> Enterprise was more of a round-the-world flight within the
>>> atmosphere, specifically below the ionosphere, that could work.
>>
>> The big ball of fire crossing the sky every 70-80 minutes would
>> be a bit distracting. BTW, just how long of an antenna will
>> short-wave need? If the wavelength is between 10 and 100 meters,
>> wouldn't the antenna need to be about as long?
>>
>At the time, more or less. Now, they use fractal designs that are
>*much* smaller. Hence, cell phones.
>

Modern cellular communcations occur in the 2.4ghz or 5ghz bands where the
wavelength is is measured in single digit centimeters (12 and 6cm). A
quarter-wavelength antenna is less than an inch in length at 5ghz.

Cell is derived from the geographic cells and with 5G there
are a _lot_ more cells, so it's even _more_ cellular.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 20:51:06 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
<tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:

>Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>> news:r95u4y.JLJ@kithrup.com:
>>
>>> In article <t1d2tg$o4v$5@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>
>>>>Which one, and when? Cellphones seem notably absent from a lot
>>>>of SF. Even "Neuromancer", from 1984, has phone booths and
>>>>no mobile phones, after the first mobile phone came on the
>>>>market.
>>>
>>> _Space Cadet,_ early '50s. The cadet-applicants are waiting for
>>> transport to the Academy, and one of them gets a nervous
>>> parental call, is he all right, is he taking care of himself?
>>> much to his embarrassment. Another cadet tells him he should've
>>> packed his phone deep in his baggage.
>
>That is nothing if not prescient (or an extrapolation of normal
>human behavior in the presence of new technology).
>
>Then again, there is the comic that _really_ predicted modern
>times, which can be seen at
>
>https://oneandroid.net/the-100-year-old-comic-that-predicted-everything-bad-about-mobiles/
>
>> The most famous prediction of cell phones is, of course, Star Trek.
>
>In a way, it was the other way around - I once read that the main
>engineer wanted to create something like Star Trek's communicators.

What, you never heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Note that there are occasional reports of /Star Trek/ fans with
appropriate scientific backgrounds and equipment trying to reproduce,
in reality, the Princess Leia hologram.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 23:14:10 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 03:12:39 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
><taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote in
>>news:lpnk3h1lqa4kgofts1psiles608jgo7vtd@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:30:28 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>>> Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>>>>news:r95u4y.JLJ@kithrup.com:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <t1d2tg$o4v$5@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>>>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>>>>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <ted@loft.tnolan.com> schrieb:
>>>>>>> In article <t1bg6n$ql4$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>"A 1986 dystopian Russian novel basically predicted Vladimir
>>>>>>>>Putin"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-1986-dystopian-russian
>>>>>>>>-n ovel-basically-predicted-vladimir-putin/ar-AAVjwxz
>>>>>>Which one, and when? Cellphones seem notably absent from a
>>>>>>lot of SF. Even "Neuromancer", from 1984, has phone booths
>>>>>>and no mobile phones, after the first mobile phone came on the
>>>>>>market.
>>>
>>> OK so I'm not crazy or demented. THought I remembered that.
>>>
>>> Of course there was always Dick Tracy's (40s era?) Two Way Wrist
>>> Radio - I stopped reading when they killed off the Moon Maid
>>>
>>>>> _Space Cadet,_ early '50s. The cadet-applicants are waiting
>>>>> for transport to the Academy, and one of them gets a nervous
>>>>> parental call, is he all right, is he taking care of himself?
>>>>> much to his embarrassment. Another cadet tells him he
>>>>> should've packed his phone deep in his baggage.
>>>>>
>>>>The most famous prediction of cell phones is, of course, Star
>>>>Trek.
>>>
>>> Well yes and no - I'm pretty sure the ST communicator worked
>>> from Earth orbit to ground and no towers were involved no?
>>>
>>We have satellite phones right now. And have for decades.
>
>Why yes! Which was my whole point - that the Trek communicator isn't
>remotely like a cell phone.

Well, except for being hand-held and something you talk over.

But you appear to be correct: the infrastructure is different.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Wednesday, 23 March 2022 at 12:23:55 UTC, Don wrote:
> Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> > Ted Nolan wrote:
> >> J. Clarke wrote:
> >>> The Horny Goat wrote:
> >>>> Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >>>>> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >>>>>> Thomas Koenig wrote:
> >>>>>>> Ted Nolan schrieb:
> >>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> "A 1986 dystopian Russian novel basically predicted Vladimir Putin"
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-1986-dystopian-russian-novel-basically-predicted-vladimir-putin/ar-AAVjwxz
> >>>>>>> Which one, and when? Cellphones seem notably absent from a lot
> >>>>>>> of SF. Even "Neuromancer", from 1984, has phone booths and
> >>>>>>> no mobile phones, after the first mobile phone came on the
> >>>>>>> market.
> >>>>
> >>>> OK so I'm not crazy or demented. THought I remembered that.
> >>>>
> >>>> Of course there was always Dick Tracy's (40s era?) Two Way Wrist Radio
> >>>> - I stopped reading when they killed off the Moon Maid
> >>>
> >>> Some time in the '60s the Two Way Wrist Radio got video.
> >>>
> >>>>>> _Space Cadet,_ early '50s. The cadet-applicants are waiting for
> >>>>>> transport to the Academy, and one of them gets a nervous
> >>>>>> parental call, is he all right, is he taking care of himself?
> >>>>>> much to his embarrassment. Another cadet tells him he should've
> >>>>>> packed his phone deep in his baggage.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> The most famous prediction of cell phones is, of course, Star Trek.
> >>>>
> >>>> Well yes and no - I'm pretty sure the ST communicator worked from
> >>>> Earth orbit to ground and no towers were involved no?
> >>>
> >>> It would be more in the nature of a satphone I suspect. Of course
> >>> compared to anythine we use, the Enterprise could carry an immense
> >>> antenna array.
> >>
> >> I'm trying to remember -- in TOS did they ever make away-team to away-team
> >> calls or was it all ship-to-shore (and vice-versa) stuff? I rememer that
> >> on the ship itself, they used (presumably wired) station-to-station
> >> intercoms.
> >
> > TOS Communicators were routinely used to make "person to person" calls
> > between members of an away team. They also could be used on board ship
> > but were generally not carried around when on the ship.
> Memory Alpha corroborates Terry (and has a lot more to say about
> communicators in general).
>
> The Star Trek Encyclopedia (3rd ed., p. 518) notes that, when
> the communicator was first invented in 1964, it appeared to
> be incredibly advanced and compact, with few believing that
> Star Trek would still be airing when portable cellular phones
> were invented. Dr. Martin Cooper, the inventor of the modern
> mobile phone, credits the TOS communicator as being his
> inspiration for coming up with the invention in the 1970s
> (when he was a General Manager of Systems at Motorola). [11]
> Stated André Bormanis, "Some engineer at Motorola thought,
> 'Hey it’d be cool to make this look like the communicator,
> but we need to make it smaller. Or fold it. You can flip it
> open like Kirk and Spock did, because that was so cool.'"
> (The Fifty-Year Mission: The Next 25 Years, p. 32) An exhibit
> that encompassed information on how the portable phone
> originated from Star Trek was included in Star Trek: The
> Exhibition when it moved to London in October 1995. (Star
> Trek Monthly issue 9, p. 6) An actual TOS-era communicator
> was also included in the exhibition but was a part of the
> touring collection from its beginnings in Edinburgh. (Star
> Trek Monthly issue 1, p. 20)
>
> https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Communicator
>
> Edinburgh brings to mind Robert Carnegie. Given how Robert made me
> aware of Memory Alpha in the first place, it surprises me how he
> neglected to post pertinent phone data here. ( <- Most facetious, given
> the posters involved in the thread.)
>
> So, does this make me the group's biggest Trekkie for the day? (God help
> me!) ROTFLMAO.
>
> Danke,

He who deflected it, reflected it. :-)

On the link there to Martin Cooper in Wikipedia,
he's quoted as saying that not Star Trek or Robert
Heinlein, but Dick Tracy's watch was his inspiration
for... this.
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/2007Computex_e21Forum-MartinCooper.jpg>

I think I heard about Star Trek more when phones
first started to live in your shirt pocket and flip open
to use. But after that we had "candy bar" phones.
Then phones with mostly screen on one or occasionally
both sides. And now - if you really want it - your
smartphone screen can fold.

And you can speak to your wrist phone... but it's
likely to be only acting as a... hand-set, for your
pocket phone.

As for Dick Tracy's wrist-radio / TV / computer -
did they ever say where he got it and did anybody
else get to have one? Aha, answered.
<https://dicktracy.fandom.com/wiki/2-Way_Wrist_Radio>

"kept from the public marketplace", "powered by
a strong atomic battery", "explosive malfunction"