Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> schrieb:
> On 2022-03-19, Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From David Weber on Facebook:
>>
>> However, when he visited Ukraine, he did find one thing
>> that hadn't changed a great deal, and that was that Ukraine was still
>> infested by a small-minded, vicious creature with delusions of grandeur
>> name Vladimir and his army of LilliPutins.
>
> I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
> Putin?

I'm sure that at least one of them is actually called Voldemort.

On 2022-03-23, Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>>I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
>>Putin?
>
> A long time ago, I learned that peoples' names are /pronounced/ and
> /spelled/ as they dictate.

That's not what happens. Like other matters of language usage,
it's the language community at large that decides the predominant
forms. For instance, Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake is largely known as "Sitting
Bull" in the English-speaking world (and partially beyond). I don't
know what his view on this would have been, or in fact was, but I'll
venture the guess that it would have been immaterial.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2022-03-23, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
> >>I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
> >>Putin?
> >
> > A long time ago, I learned that peoples' names are /pronounced/ and
> > /spelled/ as they dictate.
> That's not what happens. Like other matters of language usage,
> it's the language community at large that decides the predominant
> forms. For instance, Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake is largely known as "Sitting
> Bull" in the English-speaking world (and partially beyond). I don't
> know what his view on this would have been, or in fact was, but I'll
> venture the guess that it would have been immaterial.

I guess I'm just a grumpy old man, but I still think of places as
Peking, Burma, Ceylon, Calcutta, Bombay, etc. Different
languages are allowed to have different names for places. The
British don't complain about 'Londres', nor do the Germans about
Allemagne (or for that matter, 'Germany').
pt

In article <af9ba1e0-2e57-42c4-9bf1-b1b38c6d0a1cn@googlegroups.com>,
"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> > On 2022-03-23, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > >>I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
> > >>Putin?
> > >
> > > A long time ago, I learned that peoples' names are /pronounced/ and
> > > /spelled/ as they dictate.
> > That's not what happens. Like other matters of language usage,
> > it's the language community at large that decides the predominant
> > forms. For instance, T?at?��ka �yotake is largely known as "Sitting
> > Bull" in the English-speaking world (and partially beyond). I don't
> > know what his view on this would have been, or in fact was, but I'll
> > venture the guess that it would have been immaterial.
>
> I guess I'm just a grumpy old man, but I still think of places as
> Peking, Burma, Ceylon, Calcutta, Bombay, etc. Different
> languages are allowed to have different names for places. The
> British don't complain about 'Londres', nor do the Germans about
> Allemagne (or for that matter, 'Germany').
> pt

I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people themselves.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <af9ba1e0-2e57-42c4-9bf1-b1b38c6d0a1cn@googlegroups.com>,
> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>> On 2022-03-23, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
>>>>> Putin?
>>>>
>>>> A long time ago, I learned that peoples' names are /pronounced/ and
>>>> /spelled/ as they dictate.
>>> That's not what happens. Like other matters of language usage,
>>> it's the language community at large that decides the predominant
>>> forms. For instance, T?at?á©Øka Íyotake is largely known as "Sitting
>>> Bull" in the English-speaking world (and partially beyond). I don't
>>> know what his view on this would have been, or in fact was, but I'll
>>> venture the guess that it would have been immaterial.
>>
>> I guess I'm just a grumpy old man, but I still think of places as
>> Peking, Burma, Ceylon, Calcutta, Bombay, etc. Different
>> languages are allowed to have different names for places. The
>> British don't complain about 'Londres', nor do the Germans about
>> Allemagne (or for that matter, 'Germany').
>> pt
>
> I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
> names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
> deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people themselves.
>

I hold that...

Just like for people and their names

....those places are named what the people who live there call it.

Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> writes:
>In article <af9ba1e0-2e57-42c4-9bf1-b1b38c6d0a1cn@googlegroups.com>,
> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> > On 2022-03-23, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> > >>I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
>> > >>Putin?
>> > >
>> > > A long time ago, I learned that peoples' names are /pronounced/ and
>> > > /spelled/ as they dictate.
>> > That's not what happens. Like other matters of language usage,
>> > it's the language community at large that decides the predominant
>> > forms. For instance, T?at?��ka �yotake is largely known as "Sitting
>> > Bull" in the English-speaking world (and partially beyond). I don't
>> > know what his view on this would have been, or in fact was, but I'll
>> > venture the guess that it would have been immaterial.
>>
>> I guess I'm just a grumpy old man, but I still think of places as
>> Peking, Burma, Ceylon, Calcutta, Bombay, etc. Different
>> languages are allowed to have different names for places. The
>> British don't complain about 'Londres', nor do the Germans about
>> Allemagne (or for that matter, 'Germany').
>> pt
>
>I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
>names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
>deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people themselves.

What about Roma, Moskva, Meunchen, and Paree?

On 3/23/2022 9:58 PM, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
>> In article <af9ba1e0-2e57-42c4-9bf1-b1b38c6d0a1cn@googlegroups.com>,
>>   "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian
>>> Weisgerber wrote:
>>>> On 2022-03-23, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
>>>>>> Putin?
>>>>>
>>>>> A long time ago, I learned that peoples' names are /pronounced/ and
>>>>> /spelled/ as they dictate.
>>>> That's not what happens. Like other matters of language usage,
>>>> it's the language community at large that decides the predominant
>>>> forms. For instance, T?at?á©Øka Íyotake is largely known as "Sitting
>>>> Bull" in the English-speaking world (and partially beyond). I don't
>>>> know what his view on this would have been, or in fact was, but I'll
>>>> venture the guess that it would have been immaterial.
>>>
>>> I guess I'm just a grumpy old man, but I still think of places as
>>> Peking, Burma, Ceylon, Calcutta, Bombay, etc. Different
>>> languages are allowed to have different names for places. The
>>> British don't complain about 'Londres', nor do the Germans about
>>> Allemagne (or for that matter, 'Germany').
>>> pt
>>
>> I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
>> names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
>> deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people themselves.
>>
>
> I hold that...
>
> Just like for people and their names
>
> ...those places are named what the people who live there call it.

Lot of places called some variation of "Hell" then....

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:58:09 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
>> In article <af9ba1e0-2e57-42c4-9bf1-b1b38c6d0a1cn@googlegroups.com>,
>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>>> On 2022-03-23, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
>>>>>> Putin?
>>>>>
>>>>> A long time ago, I learned that peoples' names are /pronounced/ and
>>>>> /spelled/ as they dictate.
>>>> That's not what happens. Like other matters of language usage,
>>>> it's the language community at large that decides the predominant
>>>> forms. For instance, T?at?á©Øka Íyotake is largely known as "Sitting
>>>> Bull" in the English-speaking world (and partially beyond). I don't
>>>> know what his view on this would have been, or in fact was, but I'll
>>>> venture the guess that it would have been immaterial.
>>>
>>> I guess I'm just a grumpy old man, but I still think of places as
>>> Peking, Burma, Ceylon, Calcutta, Bombay, etc. Different
>>> languages are allowed to have different names for places. The
>>> British don't complain about 'Londres', nor do the Germans about
>>> Allemagne (or for that matter, 'Germany').
>>> pt
>>
>> I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
>> names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
>> deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people themselves.
>>
>
>I hold that...
>
>Just like for people and their names
>
>...those places are named what the people who live there call it.

At the end of the day, this is about /politeness/, or perhaps better
/courtesy/, not ideology.

On another group, we had a guy who ridiculed a spelling of a common
name because it "wasn't right". It turned out that his country (in
Europe) was one of those with an Official List of Allowed Baby Names
-- and, when that list was consulted, a form of that name /with the
spelling he objected to/ was found on it.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:45:05 -0700, Robert Woodward
<robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

>In article <af9ba1e0-2e57-42c4-9bf1-b1b38c6d0a1cn@googlegroups.com>,
> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> > On 2022-03-23, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> > >>I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
>> > >>Putin?
>> > >
>> > > A long time ago, I learned that peoples' names are /pronounced/ and
>> > > /spelled/ as they dictate.
>> > That's not what happens. Like other matters of language usage,
>> > it's the language community at large that decides the predominant
>> > forms. For instance, T?at??ka ?otake is largely known as "Sitting
>> > Bull" in the English-speaking world (and partially beyond). I don't
>> > know what his view on this would have been, or in fact was, but I'll
>> > venture the guess that it would have been immaterial.
>>
>> I guess I'm just a grumpy old man, but I still think of places as
>> Peking, Burma, Ceylon, Calcutta, Bombay, etc. Different
>> languages are allowed to have different names for places. The
>> British don't complain about 'Londres', nor do the Germans about
>> Allemagne (or for that matter, 'Germany').
>> pt
>
>I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
>names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
>deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people themselves.

I deal on a daily basis with people who are physically in Mumbai, so
I'm finding it more efficacious to go with the flow. However twisting
my brain into using modern Ukrainian place names is more difficult.

On 2022-03-24 9:04 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:58:09 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
>>> In article <af9ba1e0-2e57-42c4-9bf1-b1b38c6d0a1cn@googlegroups.com>,
>>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-03-23, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
>>>>>>> Putin?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A long time ago, I learned that peoples' names are /pronounced/ and
>>>>>> /spelled/ as they dictate.
>>>>> That's not what happens. Like other matters of language usage,
>>>>> it's the language community at large that decides the predominant
>>>>> forms. For instance, T?at?á©Øka Íyotake is largely known as "Sitting
>>>>> Bull" in the English-speaking world (and partially beyond). I don't
>>>>> know what his view on this would have been, or in fact was, but I'll
>>>>> venture the guess that it would have been immaterial.
>>>>
>>>> I guess I'm just a grumpy old man, but I still think of places as
>>>> Peking, Burma, Ceylon, Calcutta, Bombay, etc. Different
>>>> languages are allowed to have different names for places. The
>>>> British don't complain about 'Londres', nor do the Germans about
>>>> Allemagne (or for that matter, 'Germany').
>>>> pt
>>>
>>> I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
>>> names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
>>> deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people themselves.
>>>
>>
>> I hold that...
>>
>> Just like for people and their names
>>
>> ...those places are named what the people who live there call it.
>
> At the end of the day, this is about /politeness/, or perhaps better
> /courtesy/, not ideology.

Precisely.

When I ask people their names, I call them what they want to be called
and spell it the way they want it spelled.

A perfect example of this was when I ran into an old high school friend
decades after high school. We had a nice coffee, and when we wrapped up,
I started putting her name into my phone, spelling it "Leah", and she
saw me and said it was spelled "Lea"...

....but that people mispronounced it as "Lee" if she didn't spell it with
the "h" while she was in school.

>
> On another group, we had a guy who ridiculed a spelling of a common
> name because it "wasn't right". It turned out that his country (in
> Europe) was one of those with an Official List of Allowed Baby Names
> -- and, when that list was consulted, a form of that name /with the
> spelling he objected to/ was found on it.

Yup.

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:37:57 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-03-24 9:04 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> > On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:58:09 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
> >>> In article <af9ba1e0-2e57-42c4...@googlegroups.com>,
> >>> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> >>>>> On 2022-03-23, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
> >>>>>>> Putin?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A long time ago, I learned that peoples' names are /pronounced/ and
> >>>>>> /spelled/ as they dictate.
> >>>>> That's not what happens. Like other matters of language usage,
> >>>>> it's the language community at large that decides the predominant
> >>>>> forms. For instance, T?at?á©Øka Íyotake is largely known as "Sitting
> >>>>> Bull" in the English-speaking world (and partially beyond). I don't
> >>>>> know what his view on this would have been, or in fact was, but I'll
> >>>>> venture the guess that it would have been immaterial.
> >>>>
> >>>> I guess I'm just a grumpy old man, but I still think of places as
> >>>> Peking, Burma, Ceylon, Calcutta, Bombay, etc. Different
> >>>> languages are allowed to have different names for places. The
> >>>> British don't complain about 'Londres', nor do the Germans about
> >>>> Allemagne (or for that matter, 'Germany').
> >>>> pt
> >>>
> >>> I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
> >>> names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
> >>> deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people themselves.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I hold that...
> >>
> >> Just like for people and their names
> >>
> >> ...those places are named what the people who live there call it.
> >
> > At the end of the day, this is about /politeness/, or perhaps better
> > /courtesy/, not ideology.
> Precisely.
>
> When I ask people their names, I call them what they want to be called
> and spell it the way they want it spelled.
>
> A perfect example of this was when I ran into an old high school friend
> decades after high school. We had a nice coffee, and when we wrapped up,
> I started putting her name into my phone, spelling it "Leah", and she
> saw me and said it was spelled "Lea"...
>
> ...but that people mispronounced it as "Lee" if she didn't spell it with
> the "h" while she was in school.
> >
> > On another group, we had a guy who ridiculed a spelling of a common
> > name because it "wasn't right". It turned out that his country (in
> > Europe) was one of those with an Official List of Allowed Baby Names
> > -- and, when that list was consulted, a form of that name /with the
> > spelling he objected to/ was found on it.
> Yup.

What do you call the capital of France?
What do you call the country to the east of France?

pt

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 12:58:14 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
> > In article <af9ba1e0-2e57-42c4...@googlegroups.com>,
> > "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> >>> On 2022-03-23, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
> >>>>> Putin?
> >>>>
> >>>> A long time ago, I learned that peoples' names are /pronounced/ and
> >>>> /spelled/ as they dictate.
> >>> That's not what happens. Like other matters of language usage,
> >>> it's the language community at large that decides the predominant
> >>> forms. For instance, T?at?á©Øka Íyotake is largely known as "Sitting
> >>> Bull" in the English-speaking world (and partially beyond). I don't
> >>> know what his view on this would have been, or in fact was, but I'll
> >>> venture the guess that it would have been immaterial.
> >>
> >> I guess I'm just a grumpy old man, but I still think of places as
> >> Peking, Burma, Ceylon, Calcutta, Bombay, etc. Different
> >> languages are allowed to have different names for places. The
> >> British don't complain about 'Londres', nor do the Germans about
> >> Allemagne (or for that matter, 'Germany').
> >> pt
> >
> > I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
> > names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
> > deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people themselves.
> >
> I hold that...
>
> Just like for people and their names
>
> ...those places are named what the people who live there call it.

But that's not always so clear. Mumbai was a name pushed through by the nationalist Shiv Sena party, according to a friend of mine who grew up in the city. Many people in the city, not of that ethnic group, preferred Bombay..

"Myanmar" is again part of an attempt of one group to impose their ethnic vision on the country. It is a legitimate name, but many of other ethnic groups prefer "Burma". However, the military prefers "Myanmar", and they have the guns.

We don't call Germany Deutschland, we frequently name the Netherlands after just one of it's provinces, Greece is stuck with a nickname foisted on it's people in Italy 2500 years ago. It probably wasn't particularly complimentary at the time.

William Hyde

In article <a6c27de7-edd0-46c6-9286-799078223aaen@googlegroups.com>,
"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:37:57 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
> > On 2022-03-24 9:04 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> > > On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:58:09 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:

<SNIP!>

> > >>> I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
> > >>> names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
> > >>> deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people
> > >>> themselves.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> I hold that...
> > >>
> > >> Just like for people and their names
> > >>
> > >> ...those places are named what the people who live there call it.
> > >
> > > At the end of the day, this is about /politeness/, or perhaps better
> > > /courtesy/, not ideology.
> > Precisely.
> >
<snip>
> > >
> > > On another group, we had a guy who ridiculed a spelling of a common
> > > name because it "wasn't right". It turned out that his country (in
> > > Europe) was one of those with an Official List of Allowed Baby Names
> > > -- and, when that list was consulted, a form of that name /with the
> > > spelling he objected to/ was found on it.
> > Yup.
>
> What do you call the capital of France?

Isn't this a pronunciation question.

> What do you call the country to the east of France?

Which country to the east? I count five.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

In article <69df76d2-8878-435e-8ef1-c840aeaa4740n@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 12:58:14 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
> > On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
> > > In article <af9ba1e0-2e57-42c4...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber
> > >> wrote:
> > >>> On 2022-03-23, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>> I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
> > >>>>> Putin?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A long time ago, I learned that peoples' names are /pronounced/ and
> > >>>> /spelled/ as they dictate.
> > >>> That's not what happens. Like other matters of language usage,
> > >>> it's the language community at large that decides the predominant
> > >>> forms. For instance, T?at?á©Øka Íyotake is largely known as "Sitting
> > >>> Bull" in the English-speaking world (and partially beyond). I don't
> > >>> know what his view on this would have been, or in fact was, but I'll
> > >>> venture the guess that it would have been immaterial.
> > >>
> > >> I guess I'm just a grumpy old man, but I still think of places as
> > >> Peking, Burma, Ceylon, Calcutta, Bombay, etc. Different
> > >> languages are allowed to have different names for places. The
> > >> British don't complain about 'Londres', nor do the Germans about
> > >> Allemagne (or for that matter, 'Germany').
> > >> pt
> > >
> > > I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
> > > names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
> > > deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people themselves.
> > >
> > I hold that...
> >
> > Just like for people and their names
> >
> > ...those places are named what the people who live there call it.
>
> But that's not always so clear. Mumbai was a name pushed through by the
> nationalist Shiv Sena party, according to a friend of mine who grew up in the
> city. Many people in the city, not of that ethnic group, preferred Bombay.
>

IIRC, the people in New Delhi (and much of the Granges valley) call the
city Bombai.

> "Myanmar" is again part of an attempt of one group to impose their ethnic
> vision on the country. It is a legitimate name, but many of other ethnic
> groups prefer "Burma". However, the military prefers "Myanmar", and they
> have the guns.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 12:49:51 AM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <a6c27de7-edd0-46c6...@googlegroups.com>,
> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:37:57 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
> > > On 2022-03-24 9:04 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:58:09 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
> <SNIP!>
> > > >>> I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
> > > >>> names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
> > > >>> deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people
> > > >>> themselves.
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> I hold that...
> > > >>
> > > >> Just like for people and their names
> > > >>
> > > >> ...those places are named what the people who live there call it.
> > > >
> > > > At the end of the day, this is about /politeness/, or perhaps better
> > > > /courtesy/, not ideology.
> > > Precisely.
> > >
> <snip>
> > > >
> > > > On another group, we had a guy who ridiculed a spelling of a common
> > > > name because it "wasn't right". It turned out that his country (in
> > > > Europe) was one of those with an Official List of Allowed Baby Names
> > > > -- and, when that list was consulted, a form of that name /with the
> > > > spelling he objected to/ was found on it.
> > > Yup.
> >
> > What do you call the capital of France?
> Isn't this a pronunciation question.

By your rule, pronunciation counts. "It's just good manners."

> > What do you call the country to the east of France?
> Which country to the east? I count five.

Evading the question when you are caught in self contradiction?

The country I spoke of is, of course, called 'Deutschland' by its
inhabitants, and by your rule you should call it that whenever you
speak or write about it. But I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that when
it comes up in normal English discussion that you call it 'Germany'.

Do you claim otherwise?

Pt

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 12:49:51 AM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
>> In article <a6c27de7-edd0-46c6...@googlegroups.com>,
>> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:37:57 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
>> > > On 2022-03-24 9:04 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>> > > > On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:58:09 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >> On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
>> <SNIP!>
>> > > >>> I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
>> > > >>> names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
>> > > >>> deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people
>> > > >>> themselves.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I hold that...
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Just like for people and their names
>> > > >>
>> > > >> ...those places are named what the people who live there call it.
>> > > >
>> > > > At the end of the day, this is about /politeness/, or perhaps better
>> > > > /courtesy/, not ideology.
>> > > Precisely.
>> > >
>> <snip>
>> > > >
>> > > > On another group, we had a guy who ridiculed a spelling of a common
>> > > > name because it "wasn't right". It turned out that his country (in
>> > > > Europe) was one of those with an Official List of Allowed Baby Names
>> > > > -- and, when that list was consulted, a form of that name /with the
>> > > > spelling he objected to/ was found on it.
>> > > Yup.
>> >
>> > What do you call the capital of France?
>> Isn't this a pronunciation question.
>
>By your rule, pronunciation counts. "It's just good manners."
>
>> > What do you call the country to the east of France?
>> Which country to the east? I count five.
>
>Evading the question when you are caught in self contradiction?
>
>The country I spoke of is, of course, called 'Deutschland' by its
>inhabitants, and by your rule you should call it that whenever you
>speak or write about it. But I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that when
>it comes up in normal English discussion that you call it 'Germany'.

Likewise Austria and �sterreich[*]

[*] rich east?

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 15:11:26 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 12:49:51 AM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
>>> In article <a6c27de7-edd0-46c6...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:37:57 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
>>> > > On 2022-03-24 9:04 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>>> > > > On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:58:09 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>>> > > >
>>> > > >> On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
>>> <SNIP!>
>>> > > >>> I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
>>> > > >>> names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
>>> > > >>> deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people
>>> > > >>> themselves.
>>> > > >>>
>>> > > >>
>>> > > >> I hold that...
>>> > > >>
>>> > > >> Just like for people and their names
>>> > > >>
>>> > > >> ...those places are named what the people who live there call it.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > At the end of the day, this is about /politeness/, or perhaps better
>>> > > > /courtesy/, not ideology.
>>> > > Precisely.
>>> > >
>>> <snip>
>>> > > >
>>> > > > On another group, we had a guy who ridiculed a spelling of a common
>>> > > > name because it "wasn't right". It turned out that his country (in
>>> > > > Europe) was one of those with an Official List of Allowed Baby Names
>>> > > > -- and, when that list was consulted, a form of that name /with the
>>> > > > spelling he objected to/ was found on it.
>>> > > Yup.
>>> >
>>> > What do you call the capital of France?
>>> Isn't this a pronunciation question.
>>
>>By your rule, pronunciation counts. "It's just good manners."
>>
>>> > What do you call the country to the east of France?
>>> Which country to the east? I count five.
>>
>>Evading the question when you are caught in self contradiction?
>>
>>The country I spoke of is, of course, called 'Deutschland' by its
>>inhabitants, and by your rule you should call it that whenever you
>>speak or write about it. But I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that when
>>it comes up in normal English discussion that you call it 'Germany'.
>
>Likewise Austria and Österreich[*]
>
>
>[*] rich east?

Eastern Kingdom, surely.

As I suspect you know.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:18:40 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:37:57 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-03-24 9:04 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>> > On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:58:09 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
>> >>> In article <af9ba1e0-2e57-42c4...@googlegroups.com>,
>> >>> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> >>>>> On 2022-03-23, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I'm confused. Is he talking about Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir
>> >>>>>>> Putin?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> A long time ago, I learned that peoples' names are /pronounced/ and
>> >>>>>> /spelled/ as they dictate.
>> >>>>> That's not what happens. Like other matters of language usage,
>> >>>>> it's the language community at large that decides the predominant
>> >>>>> forms. For instance, T?at?á©Øka Íyotake is largely known as "Sitting
>> >>>>> Bull" in the English-speaking world (and partially beyond). I don't
>> >>>>> know what his view on this would have been, or in fact was, but I'll
>> >>>>> venture the guess that it would have been immaterial.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I guess I'm just a grumpy old man, but I still think of places as
>> >>>> Peking, Burma, Ceylon, Calcutta, Bombay, etc. Different
>> >>>> languages are allowed to have different names for places. The
>> >>>> British don't complain about 'Londres', nor do the Germans about
>> >>>> Allemagne (or for that matter, 'Germany').
>> >>>> pt
>> >>>
>> >>> I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
>> >>> names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
>> >>> deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people themselves.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> I hold that...
>> >>
>> >> Just like for people and their names
>> >>
>> >> ...those places are named what the people who live there call it.
>> >
>> > At the end of the day, this is about /politeness/, or perhaps better
>> > /courtesy/, not ideology.
>> Precisely.
>>
>> When I ask people their names, I call them what they want to be called
>> and spell it the way they want it spelled.
>>
>> A perfect example of this was when I ran into an old high school friend
>> decades after high school. We had a nice coffee, and when we wrapped up,
>> I started putting her name into my phone, spelling it "Leah", and she
>> saw me and said it was spelled "Lea"...
>>
>> ...but that people mispronounced it as "Lee" if she didn't spell it with
>> the "h" while she was in school.
>> >
>> > On another group, we had a guy who ridiculed a spelling of a common
>> > name because it "wasn't right". It turned out that his country (in
>> > Europe) was one of those with an Official List of Allowed Baby Names
>> > -- and, when that list was consulted, a form of that name /with the
>> > spelling he objected to/ was found on it.
>> Yup.
>
>What do you call the capital of France?
>What do you call the country to the east of France?

I was referring mostly to /personal/ names.

However, if Italy ever complains about "Leghorn" and asks politely, I
suppose we might well change it to "Livorno". As we did when China
asked that "Peking" be known instead as "Beijing".

And, should the Patriarch Jakob re-appear and request us to drop
"James" (and "Hamish"), we might well do that as well.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 25/03/2022 10.11, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 12:49:51 AM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
>>> In article <a6c27de7-edd0-46c6...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> What do you call the country to the east of France?
>>> Which country to the east? I count five.
>>
>> Evading the question when you are caught in self contradiction?
>>
>> The country I spoke of is, of course, called 'Deutschland' by its
>> inhabitants, and by your rule you should call it that whenever you
>> speak or write about it. But I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that when
>> it comes up in normal English discussion that you call it 'Germany'.
>
> Likewise Austria and Österreich[*]

I spent some time in Wein in the mid-1990s. Every day, on
my way to work, the Straßenbahn went right past "The Bank of
Austria". At least that's what the sign said. No, I'm not
translating.

A fair number of my Austrian co-workers found this gratuitous
English rather annoying.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 94:3-6

"Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> writes:
>On 25/03/2022 10.11, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 12:49:51 AM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
>>>> In article <a6c27de7-edd0-46c6...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> What do you call the country to the east of France?
>>>> Which country to the east? I count five.
>>>
>>> Evading the question when you are caught in self contradiction?
>>>
>>> The country I spoke of is, of course, called 'Deutschland' by its
>>> inhabitants, and by your rule you should call it that whenever you
>>> speak or write about it. But I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that when
>>> it comes up in normal English discussion that you call it 'Germany'.
>>
>> Likewise Austria and Österreich[*]
>
>I spent some time in Wein in the mid-1990s. Every day, on

Now now, Deutsch has rather useful pronunciation rules for "i" and "e". Surely
you meant Wien :-)

Personally, I've only been to Salzburg and Innsbruck. I did stand atop
the ski lift the year after the olympics, and used the pool at the
olympic village in Seefeld (quite beautiful).

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seefeld_in_Tirol

Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> schrieb:
> On 25/03/2022 10.11, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 12:49:51 AM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
>>>> In article <a6c27de7-edd0-46c6...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> What do you call the country to the east of France?
>>>> Which country to the east? I count five.
>>>
>>> Evading the question when you are caught in self contradiction?
>>>
>>> The country I spoke of is, of course, called 'Deutschland' by its
>>> inhabitants, and by your rule you should call it that whenever you
>>> speak or write about it. But I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that when
>>> it comes up in normal English discussion that you call it 'Germany'.
>>
>> Likewise Austria and Österreich[*]
>
> I spent some time in Wein in the mid-1990s.

In a barrel? (I assume you meant "Wien").

On 25/03/2022 11.37, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 25/03/2022 10.11, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:

>>>> The country I spoke of is, of course, called 'Deutschland' by its
>>>> inhabitants, and by your rule you should call it that whenever you
>>>> speak or write about it. But I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that when
>>>> it comes up in normal English discussion that you call it 'Germany'.
>>>
>>> Likewise Austria and Österreich[*]
>>
>> I spent some time in Wein in the mid-1990s. Every day, on
>
> Now now, Deutsch has rather useful pronunciation rules for "i" and "e". Surely
> you meant Wien :-)

They are very useful rules -- especially when one uses them. :-<

> Personally, I've only been to Salzburg and Innsbruck.

A friend and I did a road-trip to Salzburg one day. Unfortunately,
it was Saturday, and Salzburg closes down at noon on Saturdays.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.

On 25/03/2022 12.19, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> On 25/03/2022 10.11, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:

>>>> The country I spoke of is, of course, called 'Deutschland' by its
>>>> inhabitants, and by your rule you should call it that whenever you
>>>> speak or write about it. But I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that when
>>>> it comes up in normal English discussion that you call it 'Germany'.
>>>
>>> Likewise Austria and Österreich[*]
>>
>> I spent some time in Wein in the mid-1990s.
>
> In a barrel? (I assume you meant "Wien").

What makes it doubly sad is the file in which I composed that
post was named "wien". I got it right where nobody would see.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Why doesn't anybody care about apathy?

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 3:38:53 PM UTC-4, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 12.19, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> > Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> schrieb:
> >> On 25/03/2022 10.11, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >>>> The country I spoke of is, of course, called 'Deutschland' by its
> >>>> inhabitants, and by your rule you should call it that whenever you
> >>>> speak or write about it. But I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that when
> >>>> it comes up in normal English discussion that you call it 'Germany'.
> >>>
> >>> Likewise Austria and Österreich[*]
> >>
> >> I spent some time in Wein in the mid-1990s.
> >
> > In a barrel? (I assume you meant "Wien").
> What makes it doubly sad is the file in which I composed that
> post was named "wien". I got it right where nobody would see.

That's just Wien's law.

William Hyde

On Friday, 25 March 2022 at 14:40:33 UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 12:49:51 AM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > In article <a6c27de7-edd0-46c6...@googlegroups.com>,
> > "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:37:57 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
> > > > On 2022-03-24 9:04 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:58:09 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
> > <SNIP!>
> > > > >>> I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
> > > > >>> names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
> > > > >>> deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people
> > > > >>> themselves.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I hold that...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Just like for people and their names
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ...those places are named what the people who live there call it.
> > > > >
> > > > > At the end of the day, this is about /politeness/, or perhaps better
> > > > > /courtesy/, not ideology.
> > > > Precisely.
> > > >
> > <snip>
> > > > >
> > > > > On another group, we had a guy who ridiculed a spelling of a common
> > > > > name because it "wasn't right". It turned out that his country (in
> > > > > Europe) was one of those with an Official List of Allowed Baby Names
> > > > > -- and, when that list was consulted, a form of that name /with the
> > > > > spelling he objected to/ was found on it.
> > > > Yup.
> > >
> > > What do you call the capital of France?
> > Isn't this a pronunciation question.
> By your rule, pronunciation counts. "It's just good manners."
> > > What do you call the country to the east of France?
> > Which country to the east? I count five.
> Evading the question when you are caught in self contradiction?
>
> The country I spoke of is, of course, called 'Deutschland' by its
> inhabitants, and by your rule you should call it that whenever you
> speak or write about it. But I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that when
> it comes up in normal English discussion that you call it 'Germany'.
>
> Do you claim otherwise?

It's rather an accident, though. The evolution of
"Germany" is complicated. Hitler's version
incorporated Austria. If the Soviet Union's version
was named "Germanie", which I suppose to be
extremely unlikely to have happened, The Free World
could well have called "their" Germany "Deutschland"
at all times.